Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 13461 - 13480 of total 22396 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 18, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
hey Locker

what happened to yesterday's avatar picture?


that was always my favorite
MH2

climber
Apr 18, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
Memories are unreal objects by unreal subjects. No? Then bring yours out and show them to us. Or, show us your mind. Or show us "You."


We bring out memories in this thread and show our minds and ourselves.

We also stumble over disagreements in meaning.

From what MikeL has said before, I presume he would also consider an electron, for example, to be unreal. Or could he be shown one?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 18, 2013 - 03:51pm PT


"that was always my favorite"...

Even BEFORE I made it???...

;-)

jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 18, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
And all of the perceptions within you, and their relationships and the world-view you have constructed, and your self image, are all unknown to others, who have their own perspectives and make their own impressions of you. So I do not think this idea will hold up

Admittedly a stretch! But, returning briefly to the idea of multiple deaths, there is a third death beyond the second I described incorrectly as the final death: the death of legend. All of us know something of Julius Caesar, though none of us has a living memory of him. At some point in the distant future, however, he may have vanished from our collective minds, signifying a truly final demise.

We all know something of Elvis, but the visual imagery of him may be with us for thousands of years. Long live the King!

You speak of self-image as an important feature of the soul, but Zen teaches that our self-image is in fact an illusion and with dedication we can escape the condition, returning to our "original face". But what does Zen have to say about the perception of ourselves by others? (JL ???) Do others see into our souls, or hold our souls with truer insight than we ourselves? What of hermits who avoid and are unknown to others - tradition tells us they too have souls. Do they?

This is all questionable speculation, but it is fun to let the imagination run free . . .


MikeL: I hope your return visit to your doctor provides good news. Our thoughts are with you.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 18, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23401-emerging-consciousness-glimpsed-in-babies.html


...Kouider is careful to note that the results do not offer direct evidence of subjective experience. Although the babies' changing brain activity highlights the development of visual perception, it is not yet clear when the second-stage timings become short enough for awareness to kick in. "I don't know what proof would look like," says Natasha Sigala at the Brighton and Sussex Medical School, UK. "This is as good as it gets for the moment."
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Consciousness and awareness are two different

Modern medical science admits that the heart is the seat of all energies of the body.

The soul is within the heart but is anti-material and is the source of consciousness.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 18, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
There are other "deaths"

Death of the individual human personality in the context of human society, not extinction of the human environment. Species extinction would automatically trigger the third level - for everyone. I meant this in a more religious/spiritual/philosophical sense. And these are just thoughts floating around - not positions I necessarily support.
MH2

climber
Apr 18, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
So when God dies?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 18, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
So when God dies?

Ask the Duck.
MH2

climber
Apr 18, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
OK. But if God died that could be the final forgetting in a religious/spiritual sense. Or if He just forgot.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 18, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
Thanks Jogill. (I think I mistyped your avatar above, sorry.) No one's in a rush medically. It happens in 15 days.

We bring out memories in this thread and show our minds and ourselves. We also stumble over disagreements in meaning.

Indeed. We write words to each other, we read each others' words, and then we simulate, imagine, or cast scenarios that make sense to us.

We think we know each other. We don't even know ourselves.

Do you know who you are? Or do you find yourself constantly discovering and surprising yourself with discoveries about your personality, your behaviors, your biases, your habits, your preferences, etc.? You're a stranger in your own land.



Call up a memory. What is it? What's it made of? Where does it reside? Where did it come from, and where did it go when it was no longer around? (These are very old mind-training exercises.) What clearly manifests in this regard is not substantive or real.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 18, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
But if God died that could be the final forgetting in a religious/spiritual sense. Or if He just forgot

If one postulates the existence of a God, but the stages I've described don't require a deity.


;>)
MH2

climber
Apr 19, 2013 - 12:24am PT
I was thinking about a memorial service I recently attended for a gentleman who was almost completely forgotten while he was still alive. The person who arranged the service is a religious believer. The pastor never knew the deceased but gave a wonderful simple talk, and sang. Now that the deceased was with Our Lord the Redeemer he was no longer alone. That was clearly a comforting thought to the woman who had been his only visitor in his last years and stayed with him as he died.

I don't put any stock in religious doctrine, personally, but the way people get together and remember someone who has died moves me to ponder jogill's question.



MikeL,

For what is memory I suggest reading about the Aplysia escape reflex or other work of Eric Kandel.
WBraun

climber
Apr 19, 2013 - 01:23am PT
Clocks are made by Men.

But God is Time itself .......
MH2

climber
Apr 19, 2013 - 11:02am PT
Clocks are made by Men.


Mine isn't.

Uh-oh, it's later than I thought.

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 19, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
MH2:

Kandel's studies concerned the physiological basis of memory in simple animals' brains and is clearly objectivist.

I have not been clear. Apparently, we have engineered another complete disconnect in our dialogue.

I asked questions about your experience of memories. Your response might suggest to me that you don't care or think it meaningful to discuss your subjective experience of memories. You might view memories as biochemical and physical events.

I cannot help but wonder how you interpret memories of your mother, your lover, climbing El Cap, or any other thing that one might think has human significance to you. You don't think, "uh, there goes another electrical impulse" when you think about your mother, do you?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 19, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
I was thinking about a memorial service I recently attended for a gentleman who was almost completely forgotten while he was still alive. The person who arranged the service is a religious believer. The pastor never knew the deceased but gave a wonderful simple talk, and sang. Now that the deceased was with Our Lord the Redeemer he was no longer alone. That was clearly a comforting thought to the woman who had been his only visitor in his last years and stayed with him as he died.

A well-stitched together paragraph.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 19, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/apr/18/surgeon-prescribes-brian-eno-to-patients

Hospital installs room designed by godfather of ambient music after doctor observes calming effects on mother-in-law
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/anthony-towne/excerpts-from-the-diaries-of-the-late-god/


???
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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