Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 3, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Wiki;
[quotGod

The single deity of various monotheistic religions.
The single male deity of various duotheistic religions.
An impersonal and universal spiritual presence or force.
An omnipotent being, creator of the universe (as in deism).
The (personification of the) laws of nature.e][/quote]
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
BB
learn how to use the quote function
put the words inside the quote box

[qu_ote]words[/qu_ote]
words
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 3, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
"DNA is not a tally, nor a memory

it is a genetic code that came from your parents"
_

Yea! A genetic code, made of blood and guts. That determined that my eyes are blue because my Great, great, great, great, great, great etc. Grandpas eyes were blue.

Isn't that memory?




Thanks! I'm just psyched I got my Internet back!
MH2

climber
Mar 3, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Speaking of societal effects of belief systems, it is strange how scientists are often pictured as constrained by logic, like Spock of Star Trek. Scientists use logic as an aid but by no means do they use it alone.


Another (small) joke in physics is that theory is what lets you trust experiment, not the other way around. In the talk by Frank Wilczek that Ed led us to there was a pretty good theory for the unification of the fundamental forces. However, an extrapolation from experimental data, using calculations based on the theory, showed that the fundamental forces did not become equal at very short distances/high energies as they would be expected to in a unified theory.


Frank Wilczek reminded the audience that Karl Popper considered the goal of science to be to produce falsifiable hypotheses. The unified theory had provided a falsifiable hypothesis and a test had falsified the theory. "What more could you ask?"


However, science does not advance by logic alone. According to Frank Wilczek, the theory was too beautiful to abandon, but that may only be part of the story. Sometimes scientists just seem to sense that a certain idea is a good one. Calling it beautiful when it is incomplete may be seeing ahead to what it would look like if it were complete. Frank Wilczek opened his talk with an example of what a pattern may look like when it is incomplete.


The current Standard Model apparently does a reasonably good job of uniting all 4 fundamental forces, and everything we know of physics could be constructed from it, "if you were really good with calculation." It may leave out dark matter and energy for all I know but it is still an outstanding achievement of human understanding, close to the one page of equations which another physicist speculated that God used to make the Universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SO(10)_(physics);

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersymmetry



A couple excerpts from a short autobiography by Frank Wilczek:

Another thing that shaped my thinking was religious training. I was brought up as a Roman Catholic. I loved the idea that there was a great drama and a grand plan behind existence. Later, under the influence of Bertrand Russell's writings and my increasing awareness of scientific knowledge, I lost faith in conventional religion. A big part of my later quest has been trying to regain some of the sense of purpose and meaning that was lost. I'm still trying.

I flirted with brain science, but soon decided that the central questions were not ready for mathematical treatment

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2004/wilczek-autobio.html



BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 3, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
Largo, go'in back..

What's the revelence of meditating, and a Zen-like state?

Is it in the concoredense of the "me-ism"?

Another words, does it correspond the "U" with yourself, or the "U" with the world,
Or the world with you?

Correspondence might not be the exact right meaning there, but do u get my drift?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 3, 2013 - 09:02pm PT

" Frank Wilczek reminded the audience that Karl Popper considered the goal of science to be to produce falsifiable hypotheses."
__

Couldn't this be like the placebo effect?

You could give them medicine and they'll get well.
Or you could give them sugar and they'll get well anyway?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 3, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
any luck with unconventional religion?
MH2

climber
Mar 3, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
Whatever is up with Frank Wilczek, he came across as a very relaxed and happy person. I don't think we should look too far into his personal life, though.

If you watch the hour or so of his talk, you may be put to sleep, but the ending offers an answer to, "Where are they (aliens)?" Actually an optimistic look into the future.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 3, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
What's the relevance of meditating, and a Zen-like state?

--


Zazen is normally done eyes open to inhibit "states." It could be argued that ANY consciousness is a state of sorts, but the idea is to leave off trying to achieve anything, especially a "spiritual state." The aim to to hang with the process till you start getting glimpses about what is true, your fundamental nature before thought or theory.

That's why I get a kick out of people comparing Zazen to Buddhism (not the same) or, laughably, to Scientology - which is like comparing creationism to evolution. The hardest part for people to grasp is that Zen has no content, therefore it can't be in contradiction or at odds with anything, a point driven home by Trappist priest Thomas Merton when Catholics complained that the Trappists were practicing Buddhism.

The world comes at us like gangbusters. Some people want to know what is going on, what lingers, what is, what is not. Zazen is the royal road to experiencing and making clear this onslaught, and is the least practiced discipline of them all, for obvious reasons (no states, no hot tubs, no "fun").

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 3, 2013 - 09:25pm PT

any luck with unconventional religion?

Every morning between 5:54-6:09 I take a dump. Then I make coffee, and read the news.
I call that religion. But that's the conventional part.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 3, 2013 - 09:41pm PT

"but the idea is to leave off trying to achieve anything, especially a "spiritual state.""

I couldn't imagine a "spiritual state" alone. Having what I've experienced..

But the idea of NOT achieving anything for myself was My first step in knowing Jesus.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 3, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
But the idea of NOT achieving anything for myself was My first step in knowing Jesus.


This kind of radical openness - tempered by a radical detachment - is likely the first step in knowing anything at depth.

JL


Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 3, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
Sorry blue - my question was directed at MH2 who said he lost faith in the conventional stuff. I thought perhaps it was just the conventional bit that messed it up.

But while i've got you how do you manage your doctrine mandated morality in the face of overwhelming opposing evidence?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 3, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
^^^^
How's that? Loving your brother as yourself.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 3, 2013 - 10:01pm PT

radical openness < eternal life
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 3, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
Boy,,,,, I've really missed all you guys! This is the BEST talk in town!

I don't know how you can up anything you've already done!

But I guess that's evolution.. Keep it up!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Mar 3, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
How's that?

Ah, you must jive to your own tune then. I admit I was just fishing. You know, how many devotee's of christianity think gays are immoral, or women rank inferior. stuff like that. I'm glad you're not lock stepping with that stuff just on account of any club affiliation. I can see how that stuff could be acceptable 50 years ago but these days seem a stretch. Hitting the sack - cheers
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 3, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
animals are people


Dances with Lions:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=122715721244326&set=vb.264489303590063&type=2&theater





Gorilla people:

Credit: TomCochrane
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 3, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
This sort of thing is the result of setting ourselves apart from and superior to animals.

The hilarious part of that is that we are in fact a composite animal and only 1/10th of the cells in our bodies is 'human'. Do our symbiants go to heaven or reincarnate with us? They seem as deserving as the rest of us.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 3, 2013 - 11:30pm PT

Gorilla people:

I wonder if gorillas will ever evolve to think making fire is advantageous?
Seriously, what's the next step out of the jungle?
Perhaps since they are vegetarians they'll never need it?

If we evolved from animals, shouldn't they evolve more, or faster from witnessing us?
At least I have turn on heat, refrigerated meat, and flushing toilets.

This type of thinking really makes me believe animals are stupid!
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