Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 13081 - 13100 of total 22747 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
WOW! Is it possible that this goat rope is actually starting to coordinate??!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
On the other hand Psilocyborg encourages immediate immersion using drugs.

Drugs produce rapid dramatic results in expansion of awareness...but in a manner that is very destructive to the local awareness and thus collapses a person into a lower state with rearranged memories and beliefs but substantially lower net awareness
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Ice in space??? How can that work. Isn't that how freeze drying works, all water molecules sublimate under a vacuum.

Our LCROSS mission was able to verify ice on the moon, by sending an impacter into a polar crater and measuring the contents of the impact debris with an instrument package following the initial impacter. I was in the control room for this experiment. One of my best friends was the chief programmer for the instrument package, Mark Shirley, if you want me to relay questions to him. lcross.arc.nasa.gov/mission.htm

Mark is playing a similar role for the follow-on mission called LADEE.
http://www.nasa.gov/ladee/

Planetary bodies with no atmosphere or very thin atmosphere are constantly impacted by rocks that spread impact debris far and wide as excellent insulating material. On this planet most of these burn up in the upper atmosphere. If we build a moon base, we will carefully insulate it with the regolith impact dust. The Caterpillar company has done a lot of expensive design work for machines to perform this function on the moon or Mars.

Regolith is rather odd stuff and can be microwaved into bricks or paving blocks. Its particle sizes are sub-microscopic and highly abrasive and play havoc with wearing out space suit material and moving machine parts. It penetrates all the pores of metal and cloth and can not be cleaned off. You can see this in the space suits of lunar astronauts in various museums.

As you go farther out in the solar system, there appears to be greater amounts of ice on planetary bodies.

Mars appears to have more water than Earth (our misnamed planet that should be called 'Water'). The red surface dust covers and insulates the ice. Ice is on the surface at the poles and is gradually deeper as you approach the equator, where the ice is usually no more than a few meters deep. It is possible that as you go deeper into the planet, there are underground oceans of liquid water, based upon ground penetrating radar from orbit. We have observed liquid water erupting from the sides of canyons, where it causes dramatic erosion and then quickly evaporates.

If you look at a geologic model of Mars, such as in the visitors center at NASA Ames, you can see on one side a huge impact crater, and on the opposite side a huge bulge, Olympus Mons, the highest mountain in the Solar System. There is a huge canyon running from Olympus Mons around to the other side of the planet, with a huge delta at the lower end of the canyon. The Grand Canyon in SW USA would be a minor tributary to this Valles Marineris.

If you think about all the debris flying around out there, it is rather odd to be riding along on the surface of a planet rather than inside it...we are incredibly privileged...and hanging out there like puppies wandering on the freeway...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:09am PT
the Voyager spacecrafts are traveling at speeds and distances that dramatically do not match our calculated predictions, for unknown reasons that are being quietly studied

The twin Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft continue exploring where nothing from Earth has flown before. In the 33rd year after their 1977 launches, they each are much farther away from Earth and the Sun than Pluto. Voyager 1 and 2 are now in the "Heliosheath" - the outermost layer of the heliosphere where the solar wind is slowed by the pressure of interstellar gas. Both spacecraft are still sending scientific information about their surroundings through the Deep Space Network (DSN).

The primary mission was the exploration of Jupiter and Saturn. After making a string of discoveries there -- such as active volcanoes on Jupiter's moon Io and intricacies of Saturn's rings -- the mission was extended. Voyager 2 went on to explore Uranus and Neptune, and is still the only spacecraft to have visited those outer planets. The adventurers' current mission, the Voyager Interstellar Mission (VIM), will explore the outermost edge of the Sun's domain. And beyond.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2013 - 02:40am PT
Seems like, with the right design intent, you could use a controlled thermal recoil to spin-stabilize a craft during long-haul, thrust-less cruises in order to keep an antenna pointed towards Earth (or do I have that entirely wrong?).
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2013 - 04:16am PT
Largo: My obsersvations are based on being around Zendos since I was 18 years old and knowing the way business is conducted therein.

I've also been around Zendos since I was 18 years old from the Nikko Mountains to Indonesia. I've studied in Nichiren, Linji, and Shingon - eventually rejecting forms of Shingon-like esoterica and over time gravitating more and more to Samu (climbing, distance swimming, tightwire, and even digging and mopping very much playing into that..), but without entirely abandoning zazen even if chanting fell off the wagon along the way.

Largo: This way of seeking mentorship is the approach I took with climbing. When I decided to go for it, I went to Yosemite, sought out the Bridwell's and Donini's in Camp 4 and glommed on for dear life. Not saying this is the approach you or anyone else should take, but it's a common approach for ambitious people.

Glad to hear it. Studied mentorship was decidedly not the approach back in the hollers. And I'm most definitely not an "ambitious" person, but rather almost entirely curiosity-driven with little interest in driven-achievement or competition per se. Certainly none of my FAs have ever been about anything but absolute obsession with the aesthetics of, or movement on, a line. And, while I've done and put up plenty of difficult climbs, difficulty in and of itself has always held zero emotional, intellectual, or aesthetic appeal for me. Risk-taking (and risk management) on the other hand has always had some hold on me and it's really a solitary, unmentorable aspect of pure movement over stone from my perspective.

Largo: Ultimately, we are all self-taught in climbing and meditation since no one can do the practice for us. But having reliable folks on the other end of the rope has it's advantages without diluting the "discovery" process."

Yes and no. As you say, we are all ultimately self-taught and while there are times for teachers, many times the mere comfort of "reliable folks" is itself an obstacle to growth and their map, however 'proven', may or may not ultimately be yours. Also, 'starkness' - as in barren, harsh, desolate and having few or no ornaments - is often a very good a teacher. And as I said previously, all of this discussion plays heavily into why most of my climbing is free, lead rope soloing. Perhaps even more odd, it's also why I didn't and still don't use chalk as, when working on an FA, I emphatically don't want to lock into and follow even myself on subsequent attempts even if that ends up the result - in general I try pretty hard not to 'remember' my way up things. That, and I find the whole climb-by-the-dots thing somewhat mind-numbing and spoiling if not expressively somewhat reprehensible.

Largo: ...that doing it ALL yourself is the "purer" way is a common illusion and one of the first to be addressed in a Zendo.

I never said "purer" in any way or respect but only "different" ways and journeys. My father learned to fly in biplanes at the onset of WWII where most of the mentoring happened on the ground and one in four of them died in the process. It was a rapid and ruthless process of sorting out who had a 'feel' for it and who didn't (he lost two roommates over the span of weeks). Today's simulators, multi-engines, structured flight training, and highly restricted flight rules result in far fewer student pilot deaths, but ask my dad and he'll tell you how glad he is he didn't learn to fly in the way or in the world his sons did.

Largo: Then you're instructed to go sit and face the wall, where ironically you're left to work it out - by yourself. There's no other way.

As you say, ultimately there is no other way. And that raises an important point and that is 'learning to learn', which is a cumulative skill hopefully spanning a lifetime. As one grows and learns more about oneself it is hoped you take more and more responsibility for your own learning. Teachers and mentors can again play a role, but like the history and evolution of Buddhism itself wherein various 'masters' have struck out on their own to develop lineages based on interpretations more relevant to their lives, experience, and cultures, it is good and helpful to know when it's time to go one's own way. Sometimes the beta, however well it works for the person offering it or a thousand others, simply isn't how you are going to succeed at what lays before you.

Largo: The point being that I am not formulating my own take on how your are supposed to practice, only passing on the way things are commonly done by those who have made it their life work. As they say - take what you want, and leave the rest.

As I said in the previous post, making enlightenment my life's work is not my objective, making my moment-to-moment life more enlightened is - the distinction, as evoked in Samu, has become ever more important to me.

Largo: My point is vouchsafed by most every professional scientist you have ever known, few of whom will begrudge themselves for going to school and studying under acknowledged experts, and completing a scholastic curriculum, however grave and tedious. A dedicated student could possibly learn the same material on their own, but the scholastic path is surely more efficient - we can easily see why.

And still, sometimes the reverse is true: 16-year old invents cheap, accurate cancer test. Then there's Tom and I who do software. While I can't speak to Tom's experience, the field is notorious for it lack of structure, formal training, and mentorship. 'Hacking', as a mode of [continuous] learning is ever the norm and in fact necessary if you are really going to keep pace with technology. Some of the reason is simply the slow speed of speech - a week sitting in a classroom or seminar means you've basically lost forty hours of time you could have spent coding and prototyping your way through it and been way ahead in assimilating the material from where you'd be after a week of sitting and listening to someone talk.

From my perspective a lot of this stuff is about each of us unavoidably having our own journey. And a lot of it is also about differing enculturalization, inherent modus operandi, approach and style. We are clearly a very different people with very different takes on things, but it's all good from where I sit. I think where we differ is more around the interpretations and beliefs our experiences have led us to hold. I simply have no need of, and find the case less-than-compelling for, religion, panpsychism, various idealisms, universalities, souls, reincarnation, etc. to explain the unknown. You clearly hold different views and beliefs as does Werner, Go-B and everyone else here. I do, however, have to thank you for the ongoing tour of philosophy which has been quite interesting and educational.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2013 - 04:46am PT
Tom: Drugs produce rapid dramatic results in expansion of awareness...but in a manner that is very destructive to the local awareness and thus collapses a person into a lower state with rearranged memories and beliefs but substantially lower net awareness

I couldn't disagree more strongly and saying "drugs" is a lot like saying "sports" - are we talking curling, rugby, 60m single-handed yacht racing, football, bull fighting, Sarlagan polo, or Russian roulette?

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2013 - 08:04am PT
I use the words, "I don't beleive" because I don't know enough about the subject to understand the science behind it, or the idea is wrong, and I was correct to doubt it.

which means once I study more about the subject, I will be able to use the words "I understand"

I'm still not sure about "Dark Matter", it seems based only on a need to make some equation work, maybe there are other things at work, or the equation is wrong when it come to the overall expansion of the universe.

I will check out some of your links Ed.


Here are some others that were debunked before I got to rail against them

    Netrinos faster than the speed of Light!!
    Bacteria use arsenic instead of phosphorus!!


and this I'm still working on, "Humans have never demonstrated the use of Free Will"
I think I may be correct in the end on this one, Humans have used Free Will, but just not as much as we think we do.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 26, 2013 - 08:45am PT
I'm too terrified to open any link of Ed's that dosn't have the word "Offwidth" in it.


Come to think of it, that terrifies me too.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2013 - 08:46am PT
Today's flowers
Credit: Dr. F.


Bruce
so true
This link did not help me understand ice in space
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy

MH2

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:03am PT
I'm too terrified to open any link of Ed's


What are you afraid of?

Oh, oh, OMG!

As soon as you start to relax about the Pioneer anomaly you find the flyby anomaly. AIEEEE!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:05am PT
Craig asked in what milieu does science not applicable.

BASE posted a thing on isms. Including this one:

scientism = belief that the methods of science are universally applicable

I would expand the definition to say that not only is scientism the belief that science HAS no limitations to investigate the seen and unseen, but that whatever science cannot touch is purely imaginary, and that would include raw awareness (NOT data processing), void, pure dimensionality (minus content/fields), etc.

JL
MH2

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:45am PT
Provide an example of raw awareness and see if science can investigate it. If there is nothing to latch onto there is nothing for the scientific method to be applied to and one is left unsure of how this awareness is manifested in the physical world and how one can even talk about it.

Sounds a little like

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_noise

jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:33am PT
I think it was you, Andy, who suggested some are writing on a purely experiential level. That's fine as long as we do not then look for any discussion involving two different people. For no two experiences are identical and so nothing truly common is there, upon which a well defined discussion can be based. Nothing is defined.

If they are of a mind to do so, one can read experiential writing, experience whatever that brings up, and then move on. But don't expect any of these experiences to be the same.

The activity is primarily recreational. It is not deductive.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:58am PT
This link did not help me understand ice in space
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy

I agree, it's a poor explanation.

The vapor pressure of ice is very low at cold temperatures.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103506003046
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
that energy is called the enthalpy of sublimation
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
I guess it's colder in space than normal ice

so it doesn't sublimate as fast?
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
A simplification using melting instead of sublimation:

When you melt ice with your hand, your hand gets cold because the ice takes energy from you. No heat source, no melting.

In space, if there is no heat (or radiation) source, the ice just sits there.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 26, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
Ed, the idea of "seeking validity" is misguided. Your actual life, the one you truly lead, not the one extruded through your evaluating mind, is the most profound validation about thee basic and fundamental realities. From perspective, abstractions, facts and figures can never exist on the same footing as the irreducible brute reality of your own presence, right here, right now. Deducing values or aspects from same is one step removed from brute reality, including the idea that the whole shebang is "created" by our brain.

He asked: "Provide an example of raw awareness and see if science can investigate it."

Sit down in a chair, keep your spine straight and your eyes half way open, soft focus, and just watch your breath till you physiology starts to slow and you can decelerate into just being there with no interpretation or effort. Notice what is going on - the racing thoughts, the feelings and sensation and memories bubbling on, the conversations, half done, you are having in your head, the future hopes and fears and so on. Notice that there is observing going on, and that the observed and the observer, while linked at the hip, so to speak, are not self-same. Your ego will insist that there is a "you" there watching, but that "you" has no independent existence at all. Neither does awareness and neither does the stuff you are aware of - this last point takes years to get hold of - at least it did for me and it often gets away.

Point is, in this way you can start developing a direct experiential grasp of observing and awareness that you can never arrive at by thinking about it. Over time you understand that this awareness is more like being present with whatever content or qualia flashes through awareness, but you have to go MUCH deeper than handling this as a mere idea or concept, and get the direct experience itself, the irreducible isness of the mofo.

This is the raw awareness that I speak of. It is what the world's leading neuroscientists say "we have no idea whatsoever how this is "created" by the brain," as opposed to objective data processing, for which they have a very workable model.

JL
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 26, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
sublimation is a higher order of efficiency in energy transfer, so much so it gets to skip an physical state going from solid to vapor. Perhaps that is what is missing here - a physical state, yet unrecognized or defined, that would link the state of "material" to the "spiritual".
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