Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2013 - 07:29am PT
I was referring to a Higher level of Warm Fuzzy feeling, at the start AND end of the gate way
Only the highest level of student after years of study can reach this level of warm fuzzy feelings

So yes, It includes talking to aliens, and everything Largo and Jan speak of as consequential

At the end of the day, that is all they can say of their experience that was real, it is the physical manifestation, everything else was just a mental experience, it all happened inside their brain, it has no effect on the outside world, and could be considered nothing more than a type of dream, or as Largo would say "not real".

MH2

climber
Feb 23, 2013 - 08:47am PT
do I have to go off or make time to do or become something, or can I just live and be it?


Sounds like you overcame a duality, a heuristic in much of Zen tradition. Thanks very much for the synopsis of your timeline.

I remember well the difference it made when people I climbed with carried cameras. Back then I didn't like the way it changed the experience but its fun to have the pictures, now.

Thanks also to Jan for being patient and forthcoming for those of us who like a little left-brain in our world.

And Śūnyatā? Leave it to humans to divide nothing so many ways.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 23, 2013 - 08:49am PT
This person has so little acumen in what is actually happening that he's lumped practice in with cultural acretions, and mistaken one for the other.

Too bad that you've so far been unable to clearly express what is "actually happening" so as to enlighten this person, or anyone else here, for that matter. Falling back on the privileged elitism of secret knowledge is one of the oldest charlatan's tricks in the book. "Do the work and then we can talk," speaks to power, not compassion, which is supposedly one of the mainstays of "true" spirituality. Then again, those Zen masters always kinda were as#@&%es, with the whole hitting with sticks schtick and all. Like their mommies didn't love them enough or something, I dunno.
WBraun

climber
Feb 23, 2013 - 09:35am PT
Cintune -- "Too bad that you've so far been unable to clearly express what is "actually happening" so as to enlighten this person, or anyone else here, for that matter."


Since I have quite a bit experience with the subject matter I've been able to clearly understand a lot of what Largo is expressing.

Jan also said she has understanding of the subject matter that Largo is attempting to express.

So your silly stupid worthless rants are of untruths as usual .......

Zen masters always kinda were as#@&%es,


This shows that the real aszhole is really none other than YOU
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 23, 2013 - 09:41am PT
Ah, yes, of course that's a given.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 23, 2013 - 09:54am PT
Oh come on Werner! Don't let a little poke in the eye troll you away from the topic at hand. For instance this statement:

Since I have quite a bit experience with the subject matter


For starters, what is the subject matter exactly? Spirituality? Or just swallowing bong water and following your impulses?

2nd, as we are all about the same age it is entirely possible that we all have equal "experience" in the matter, if not equal expertise. So far not too many people here are claiming expertise and I would suggest that those who do should prove it if they are to be taken seriously. Proving it takes a capacity for communication among other things. If you are looking for an aknowledgement of your authority in the matter you should discipline yourself a bit more in communicating your expertise, rather than just bolstering your aura of mysticism and elite dismisiveness eh?

I don't think it is Cinetune who is treading dangerously into the realm of the dilettante / charletan.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 23, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
Interesting that in the recent past the mystical types were accusing the science types of sounding elitist and now that the conversation has shifted, the mystical types are accused of the same thing. My guess is that it speaks more to the nature of specialization than to any personality traits.

One thing that has always struck me about the Indo-Tibetan tradition is that those cultures had much more time on their hands than we do. Wrapped up under a blanket meditating is about all you can do in a long Tibetan winter with no electricity unless you choose the other popular alternative which is huddle up with friends and drink a lot. In India, nobody goes anywhere during the monsoon unless they have a modern paved road, and the winters are months of leisure as well.

It makes sense to me that modern Western practitioners of ancient forms of meditation would be more interested in integrating them into normal life at an earlier stage. We've had books like Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and now it sounds like healyje could write a book on The Zen of Life. In the traditional scheme of things, integrating life with enlightenment is the highest form of development in this life, but it was thought that this shouldn't be attempted until after full enlightenment. In those cultures the pull of extended family obligations and the pressures to marry and the lack of contraception did probably mean the end of time alone. In our more individualistic and technological society, it seems we can manage both.

And finally, how refreshing to be able to discuss these topics without dragging religion into it!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 23, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
...shouldn't be attempted until after full enlightenment...

I like to think of that as being as attainable as a sub-hour run up the Nose.
MH2

climber
Feb 23, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
On spirituality and related matters, having recently seen Art of Freedom, I'm reminded how mountains and high altitude in particular sometimes lift people into a different mental state. I got dizzy just from hearing how many bivouacs they made above 8,000 meters. There were other times but it was the sunsets and fading colors up high that were most often mentioned as being unexpectedly beautiful and moving. Maybe it has a bit to do with not knowing if you will see morning.

There is a nice contrast between Kucuczka the Catholic and Kurtyka the ponderer of mountain experience. The subjects of the film all have personalities that differ in interesting ways but they all went through moments, and sometimes days, when cold, wind, and dangerous strenuous climbing in thin air nearly or fully killed them. The ones that survived the climbs usually returned for more.

Climbing is one way to experience the disappearance of the self as an observer, and to feel no separation between yourself and what is around you. It can also make you feel grateful for what there is, including other people, at least until you come down again.

High altitude seems to promote the experience.

http://www.culture.pl/web/english/pdp-full/-/eo_event_asset_publisher/HPh6/content/art-of-freedom

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 24, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
We just lost our little buddy, Peanut aka Chicky to sickness!

Your family, friends and pets mean everything in the end!

The bright lights of love in our lives, giving ourselves to each other, is a gift!

I long for the day when in the perfection of heaven, we remember our sorrows no more!

photo not found
Missing photo ID#291350
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 24, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
RIP Peanut. These litle guys are precious gifts.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 24, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
Cintune:

Falling back on the privileged elitism of secret knowledge is one of the oldest charlatan's tricks in the book

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 24, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Well i was just about to foresake this thread to eternal hell but as usual I heard something that rang a bell. If anyone is at all still wondering what I keep blathering on about maybe this may work for you, especially seeing as it comes from a source of expertise rather than just some nail pounding blue collar fathead. Hell, it damn near makes me want to sign up for Judaism!

http://www.cbc.ca/tapestry/?cmp=keymatch

Tapestry is on every sunday P.M on CBC radio. Usually its just a bunch of the usual wishy washy hog wash but every now and then there is some Blasphemous stuff worth listening to. The whole hour is pretty good this time but the first session with the Rabbi was fascinating.... god damn his soul to hell

Sorry to hear about your peanut Go-B

edit: Get a load of this - the guy says "God is reality itself"...... So then science is as much a study of God as anything else we got going? In fact, at this point it is by far the best study of god?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 24, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
2nd, as we are all about the same age it is entirely possible that we all have equal "experience" in the matter, if not equal expertise.


Would anyone ever say the same for people studying science? That our mean age would determine our expertise and expertise in the matter? Or does science require a certain degree of rigor and natural acumen with the subject to have any meaningful expertise at all. Are you suggesting that there is no such rigor and knack per spiritual practices? That's a strange angle to take, since any discipline I've even been party to has those with natural talent for the subject, and a rigorous curriculum, and teachers, et al. From baseball, to music, to climbing to (fill in the blank). For example, I love music but I was never terrific at it. The idea that I am just as good as Josh Redman (sax) or Randy Brecker (trumpet) simply because I'm the same age is, again, a fantastic notion to someone (me) who can't get a sound out of a trumpet.

JL
Norwegian

Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
Feb 24, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
sweet werner,
f*#k you.

you bullhorn your existential experience;
your spiritual prowess.

dude you may have traveled proudly
upon stone.
even super, proudly you've traveled upon stone.

though it is not your entitlement to
transfer your mountain prowess upon
our community's attempt at detangling wonder.

you, werner,
are a coward.
and your immature self-proclamation of knowledge
only magnifies your core weakness.

go crawl down a ditch, punk.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 24, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
fair comment. I don't know really as I have not embarked on a disciplined study of either spirituality or science. But when we listen to Michael Brecker or Jaco or Hendrix or Bach we have all over time developed at least some half assed ability to discern what sets them apart from the american Idol line up. But then can one actually articulate the difference? Probably not but if we are going to knock it around we have to try right?

All I know is this Rabbi guy does a better job of articuating the "ideas" that I was wrestling with, which has less to do with the actual existence of spirituality so much as how it translates to political / religious dogma, or if in fact it should at all.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 24, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
Hi go-B!
i,m really sorry for your loss.. Thanks for sharing.
i can really sympethize with you brother. i just lost my bestbuddy Jake
a few months back. i was the type of owner that took my dog everywhere
i went. He followed me around for 11yrs. Remembering now what i missed most
were his eyes. Besides the different tones of his barks. He had to use his eyes to communicate with me. And boy were his eyes ever expressionary!
Right now i can recall so many of his "looks", it tickles my heart. It is a joy to go back over old pics and read his face. He was even in Climbing Magazine, and Rock&Ice. 4 full page Patagonia ads.
Anyhow, i deffinitly shared a consciencness with Jake that most people never experience with an "animal". i learned alot about him and about myself stareing into his eyes. And i have sorely missed waking up in the morning to watch his eyelids raise up, and then close. And then raise up,
and close. And with my command of "lets go" he would burst onto all fours
like his tail was on fire! And he was ready to go!
Since his eyes have now been closed permanently. i have found comfort in knowing that the Bible tells us that the "eyes are the window to the soul"
therefor i believe every pair of eyes is united with a soul. The Bible also
states, "every soul is a witness on this earth". i am thoroughly convinced
God knows all. And i like you long for the day we will be together with Him


Credit: BLUEBLOCR

Jake "Redblocr"
Jake "Redblocr"
Credit: BLUEBLOCR
i just cant wait to hear what he witnessed!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 24, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
"God is reality itself"...... So then science is as much a study of God as anything else we got going? In fact, at this point it is by far the best study of god?


This would be part of what is called jnana yoga - the yoga of knowledge.

Traditionally it was manifested through the study of philosophy and theology but
probably in the modern world, science will become the predominant form.

Why else do the scientists and philosophers on this thread love to argue so much?
They're competing for the narrative about our reality.

When Ed talks about science, I see jnana yoga.
When Dawkins talks about religion, I see scientific theology.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 24, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
And thank you Go-b for sharing your sad news with us.
Community is a part of any spiritual endeavor,
whatever weird and new forms it may take.
It's hard to define the soul, but I'm sure that dogs have them.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 24, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
my journey with meditation - I fully appreciate the experience and results, but in many ways I eventually found it to be just another form of separateness


I'd wager a burger that you tried to meditate by yourself, with no community and no teacher. Imagine trying to learn climbing if you had to work the whole shebang up from scratch? A skilled teacher would have had you bore into that
separateness till it morphed into something else. IME, a lot of these plateaus are things you simply have to wait out.

For instance, right now I'm recovering from a "catastrophic injury," and several times a day I get frustrated being in a wheelchair or on crutches and always having to get my foot elevated lest it baloons like crazy. My practice is continually letting go of wanting things different. I don't like it, and hate it much of the time, but I can breath into it and get back to hauling water and chopping wood.

JL
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