Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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WBraun

climber
Mar 31, 2013 - 01:03am PT
With the 1,000 volcano experiments done the same, the results will be simultaneously the same and different.

That is classic "achintya-bheda-abheda tattva".

As I've always said this material world is a perfect, imperfect reflection, of the absolute reality.

One is temporary and one is eternal and still both are simultaneously real .....
WBraun

climber
Mar 31, 2013 - 01:15am PT
Base -- "We can control our minds fairly easily."

No you can't.

It's one of the hardest things to do I guarantee it ......
WBraun

climber
Mar 31, 2013 - 01:35am PT
y
you cannot set them up to be the same, so they are all different...

Yes ... but it's the same single experiment with different results .....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 31, 2013 - 01:44am PT
Ah-ha we have the original opponent WBraun. - 18 - 17 - 16

Nice volley. Your serve
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 31, 2013 - 01:51am PT
What's more profitable in any experiment ?

What we are

What we think

What we feel

What's more real





I know, I know profitability

Jus Answer'in my own Quest'in
BB
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 31, 2013 - 04:06am PT
Thanks for the summary Ed. I was able to follow the reasoning quite well.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 31, 2013 - 05:29am PT
Me too.

I still say you have a retirement career popularizing science.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Mar 31, 2013 - 10:02am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#296472

Psalm 32, Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit.
When I kept silent, my bones grew old
Through my groaning all the day long.
For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
My vitality was turned into the drought of summer. Selah
I acknowledged my sin to You,
And my iniquity I have not hidden.
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,”
And You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah

For this cause everyone who is godly shall pray to You
In a time when You may be found;
Surely in a flood of great waters
They shall not come near him.
You are my hiding place;
You shall preserve me from trouble;
You shall surround me with songs of deliverance. Selah

I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will guide you with My eye.
Do not be like the horse or like the mule,
Which have no understanding,
Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle,
Else they will not come near you.

Many sorrows shall be to the wicked;
But he who trusts in the Lord, mercy shall surround him.
Be glad in the Lord and rejoice, you righteous;
And shout for joy, all you upright in heart!

photo not found
Missing photo ID#296471

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

...CHEERS, Victory Won!!!




MH2

climber
Mar 31, 2013 - 11:40am PT
Experientially KNOWING who you are is a totally different animal than reckoning yourself via congnitive/conditioned evaluations, psycholocially, biologically, et al.


Nope. These modes of knowing are written and read by your nervous system. Different, sure. A totally different animal? What does that mean?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 31, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
Experientially KNOWING who you are is a totally different animal than reckoning yourself via congnitive/conditioned evaluations, psycholocially, biologically, et al.


Nope. These modes of knowing are written and read by your nervous system. Different, sure. A totally different animal? What does that mean?


First, Ed, you dodged the direct question yet again and tried to divert us to an occurance with variable conditions. One wonders why Ed does this as opposed to answering the question as stated. A random system yields random results. We all know that. Why dodge the question? It won't bite you, but you will have to concede a point my friend said you will never concede "because he's over 40," whatever that means. Fair enough. I'm over 40, by a lot.

Now as to the above, I've answered that question 1,000 times, but you're stuck with a machine metaphor of mind, that's your model, and you're sticking to it. Fine by me. The machine metaphor (cells "talking" to each other) goes far in describing objective functioning, how information is stored et al. But you're still thinking that in the exact way, the agency of witnessing is "produced" as atomic or bio blowback from these same cells. Why wouldn't they, right? But as mentioned, there is a 1,000,000 prize if you can prove as much in a peer reviewed publication. Your "Nope" implies an answer that you "know" per the nervous system "brodcasting" self-consciousness. What is that answer?

Of course you have none, and you won't as even more data streams in because the data concerns objective functioning. That's what gets glossed over here for oddball reasons, or just fear or plain stubborness to address the stuff head on and to keep redefining the questions, like Ed does, dragging stuff back onto familiar turf.

But to answer the question: A totally different animal? What does that mean?

It means that you are still looking for you identity as either as a function, or something that has "content" identifable to your nervous system, some stuff that you can see and evaluate and know. The notion of no-thing remains totally lost on you lest you'd ask another question. But you didn't really ask a question did you? You offered a challenge - one for me to answer according to your criteria with more - content.

Arrrrrrrrrrg. This is a little like watching someone try and lyback an offwidth crack.

Oh, and one last question per the big bang, asked ages ago by a physicist. WHAT went bang (of course there was no actual explosion, but yu get the picture).

JL
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Mar 31, 2013 - 01:05pm PT


"Though the term may sound like the universe began with a giant explosion, many scientists say that's not part of the theory. An explosion implies that something exploded, or expanded, from one center point outward into space. In fact, the Big Bang theory suggests that space itself expanded.

"If it were an explosion it would have a center," said physicist Paul Steinhardt, director of the Princeton Center for Theoretical Science at Princeton University in Princeton, N.J. "We actually observe that everything is moving away from everything else. It's really about an expansion of the universe ."

Instead of a center from which everything expanded, scientists think space is expanding everywhere, in all directions, equally."
...

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 31, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
The notion of no-thing remains totally lost on you...

Caution, Largo at work :-)

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Mar 31, 2013 - 01:25pm PT

"Well, that may work in theory, but will it work in the real world?"

"Well that might work in the real world, but will it work in theory?"

"Well it works, is predicted by theory . . . so it's provisionally true."

"Well, we can't explain or say what it is, so it isn't worth talking about or it doesn't exist."

"Here's another take on it, and it's better than the other viewpoint."

"This viewpoint explains more of the variance / data than the other viewpoint--so it's better."
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 31, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
What does it mean that we could time order them but can't decide which experiment the images refer to?

It wouldn't matter, Ed, because in theory,l the experiment was replicatable in exactly the same way every time. IOWs, if ten people climbed Chingando, and you got photos at all the same times, it would hardly matter WHICH ascent you were talking about becuase Chigando itself would remain the same.


You are being very intellectually dishonest here, Largo, but I'll let you get away with it, perhaps you have your own ideas on this and aren't just bullshitting for the sake of it, sort of stirring the pot with nothing at stake.

Now Ed, that is disingenious, because you have repeatedly failed to take up the hard qustions put to you and instead most eloquently either rephrase the question, shunt it off as "immaterial," or wax about things that are more in your wheel house. I expect the Cintuines to not get what I've been driving at, but you simply seem determined to remain fused to your POV as it someone was going to steal it and you'll never get it back.

Over the course of this discussion, what's most obvious is that people condition to view life and experience and the whole damn thing in one way and only one way are either unconsciously terrified, scared of being wrong, or simply lack the existential curiosity to go beyond the pale for other data. The whole idea of expecting measurements to answer existential qustions is as absurd to me as insisting that the object and subjective realms are selfsame. This mania to desperately cling to a numerical POV reminds me of a money in a zoo, wanking furiously in the corner, his face screwed up in a crazy grin - and try and talk him out of stopping. Why shold he, when "it works."

All along I've been trying to talk the monkey out of the corner, so to speak, through insults, humor, poetry, mockery, logic, insight, koans, quotes, bullsh#t, and so forth, but verily, the monkey won't budge.

So it goes. The world is larger than that corner (discursive mind), but try telling that to the monkey.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 31, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
I expect the Cintuines to not get what I've been driving at...

Not much to "get" when it comes right down to it. There's more to existence than the intellect alone can grasp. Some newsflash there; thanks a bunch.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 31, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
We never, ever, should have come down from the trees.

just a personal conviction
WBraun

climber
Mar 31, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
Would you like to propose how that logic is incorrect?

Spiritual knowledge doesn't look at the "world" it studies the "Self".

The "Self" is not of this world although only connected to it through the vehicle of the body.

The self is the driver of the body.

You Ed keep talking only about the vehicle, all it's associated attributes and the world it operates in.

And never about the actual driver. You miss the driver completely.

When you miss the "self" which is the "root" you miss everything else.

Thus one remains the monkey (a polished animal) in the tree and misses the entire human being.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 31, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
Just saw something that put all the carping on this thread into perspective. A young guard for Louiville double compounded his leg during the Louiville - Duke NCAA Men's B Ball Championship game (final 4). Life hits hard sometimes.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 31, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
Weird, just saw that and clicked on this. Looks like he came down on it sideways from only a couple feet and it just crumpled. Like Lindsey Vonn's crash last month, one second everything's fine, then boom.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 31, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
The notion of no-thing remains totally lost on you lest you'd ask another question


"In some Eastern philosophies, the concept of 'nothingness' is characterized by an egoless state of being in which one fully realizes one's own small part in the cosmos" - Wikipedia

"Arousing this great inquiry or 'Great Doubt' is an essential element of kōan practice. It builds up 'strong internal pressure' (gidan), never stopping knocking from within at the door of [the] mind, demanding to be resolved". To illustrate the enormous concentration required in kōan meditation, Zen Master Wumen commented. "It is like swallowing a red-hot iron ball. You try to vomit it out, but you can't" - Wikipedia

JL has proposed a Koan for us to engage.

;>(
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