Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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WBraun

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 09:19am PT
Bruce says;

Yet they seem compelled to do so by the anxiety of watching scientific discovery win all the ball games with the only system that produces wins.

And as usual you're not even in the ball park again.

You keep thinking all this is some kind of competition.

Go play ball in your ball park.

This thread is not a game ......
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 22, 2013 - 09:24am PT
Werner..... You crack me up! sometimes I wonder what motives you. I really think you should put the bong down and clear all the smoke out of the cave every now and then!
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 09:27am PT
Werner is the Authority of all Wisdom
all the great knowledge from the ages seeps in
He doesn't even need to crack a book, he already knows what the Book Says!!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:09am PT
I think that it is increasingly apparent - barring some astounding game changer discovery of a "physical' link between the two worlds - that they are barking up the wrong tree.

It would be hard to give a better example of entrenched misunderstanding.

There is no link...because there is no separation or separateness...

We are trying to understand the nature of our world, which appears to some as partly inanimate and partly animated alive and aware...you appear to be animated with some level of awareness...so what is the nature of that?

That idea of separateness is contrived from lacking understanding.

Which piece of the baby would you like to have delivered at your doorstep in a box?


The questions we ask dictate the answers we are capable of receiving.

What on earth makes you so certain that any of us know the right questions?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:12am PT
dopplegangers

dammit Dingus, this is serous stuff
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:12am PT
Werner is correct that most of the regulars to this thread treat the discussion as a win-all competition.


Himself very much included in this observation. The point I was trying to make, unsuccessfully i guess, is that it is indeed a fools game - so why is so much of organized religion hell bent on competing in a game where they have no business hardly commenting let alone trying to dominate?

Then the wise sage tries to project his competitive tendencies onto me! I'm one of the least competitive types you're likely to tangle with - which sure dosn't translate to meekly accepting loads of bombastic nonsense mind you. I have stated numerous times I have no truck with the spiritual /religious either way unless it attempts to claim domination of fields of enquiry and application where it hardly could punch its way out of a wet paper bag.

Tom - I have suggested that there has been no proof or even compelling explanation either way of "seperatness" or "holistic unity" so no, I am not dogmatic in my position of speculation.

What on earth makes you so certain that any of us know the right questions?


I'm not sure where you get the idea I'm certain of anything after all the blather I just spouted about my distrust of certainty!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:18am PT
Bruce,

why can't you just accept that those who having nothing of their own to add to the discussion are the ones who sit in the bleachers and make up stuff to criticize?

shame on you for not seeing this....
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:23am PT
Yes you're right. I will now go thrash myself with a cat o nine tails for my impertinence.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 10:30am PT
I thought this was for fun
Are you telling that This IS serious!!!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:49am PT
perhaps we could catalog what we know about the world:

1. what we are pretty sure about, based upon repeatable empirical observations, such as published in peer-reviewed scientific journals (oops, occasionally proven incorrect even so...)...not so sure just how large is this subset, but many people seem to try and stay in this bubble of certainty

2. where our levels of certainty are subject to intelligent debate...seems to be a large subset representing the majority of this thread

3. where we really know we don't know and are struggling to imagine what is going on based upon an available variety of observations...

my experience has been that the more i study 1. and 2., the more gets pushed off into 3.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:57am PT
my experience has been that the more i study 1. and 2., the more gets pushed off into 3.

more useless Mental Speculation

you should go visit the Man in the Cave for Enlightenment............
jstan

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 11:57am PT
Why the need to dominate politically?

George Carlin may have had that answer.

$
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
perhaps you can enlighten us with a short summary of certainties
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
my criticism of the "spiritualists" is that they often want the validity of a "physical" existence of their spiritual universe, the fact that it is subjective seems to rank it as something less than the cold hard facts of the physical universe.


I don't know any spiritualist (but plenty of religios) that are looking for "valitity." For what? But the biggest mistake in this belief is that all spirituality is "subjective," an error pf perception I have repeatedly gone out of my way to correct, but which is perfectly in keeping with a materialist view because it artificially reduces infinite qualities to blowback from a material brain = subjective imaginings about what is in fact NOT THERE (not material).

--------

why all this concern over Largo's musings, what I've seen is that he has not proposed "an answer" to these conundrums because he hasn't one to propose, not for want of a lifetime of trying... his major criticism of the science types is that they purport to have an explanation, "SCIENCE!", but then fail to deliver the goods...


I don't really have a "major criticism" about science. I've said such a stance is ridiculous. What rankles people is that I don not collapse the subjective and objective into the same qualitative "things," that is I don't say that a basketball and the perception of the color red are qualitatively the same. Likewise, I don't have to believe fantastic ideas like studying objective functioning is in fact studying subjectivity. To me, that's like saying because Craig came from his parents, I can study Craig's dad and am in fact studying Craig. So long as science sticks to the cold hard facts, which are maps that work and are viable to our evaluating mind, then I'll all for it. I don't have to expect more from science that what it is build to deliver - which is precisely discrete that which we can metabolize with our rational minds. I also know that so long as yo have no experiences of watching your rational mind, you ARE that part, and nothing about anything beyond will make any sense at all.

Of course what Ed means by "an answer" is something that he can wrangle with his rational mind, a discrete thing, a function to measure - any damn thing that he can point to and say - THERE!

But there is nothing in the spiritual literature that says any such "thing" is there. So no such answer is forthcoming.

The question is: If spirituality is about truth, and not subjective states or subjective content in any way shape or form, and likewise it is not objective, or a string of facts and figures about discrete "things," that means it is not content at all. What is left?

That's your answer, Ed, but you already decided beforehand what a viable answer MUST be (a measurable "thing" or perceivable thing), meaning you are only wiling to do science on the subject of spirituality. I remember the last Matsumi Roshi used to handle these types with a simple koan: do science on the truly basic question: Who am I?

Have at it.


JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
What is left?

Nothing

It's all about trying to make something out of nothing

Someone has a transcendental experience (inside his mind), communes with the great nothingness, comes out of it and says there is something out there

We ask what it was?, the answer "nothing"
what did you experience? "a warm fuzzy feeling"


so the answer really is, there is nothing more out there, and when you have a transcendental experience, you will get a warm fuzzy feeling, and you won't be able to talk about it because all you really experienced was nothing

This is why Largo can't tell us what it is.
but instead, he says it's right brain oriented, it doesn't have any edges for our brain to grasp, it's just out of reach, you didn't do it right, you have to work in the opposite direction of thought and logic
"Dr. F, your mind just isn't up for the task, you're not spiritual enough, you want answers, you want a thing, it is not a thing"

Correct: that's what I say, it's nothing... which means it does NOT Exist, there is nothing there, nothing is Not something

And some folks are looking for every way possible to circumnavigate accountability, science and questions.


Maybe Largo and Jan just haven't made the next step, to realize that nothing means nothing, like us Atheists.
They do not want to let go of their most cherished belief, "God"
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
It's all about trying to make something out of nothing


You've answered your own question - that is exactly what YOU are trying to do - make some "Thing," some discrete, recognizable stuff out of "no thing."

You'll never manage it. Your mistake is to apply a discursive mind take on "nothing" which will invariably render you a circular search of looking for what is not there in the form that your mind can see and evaluate.

But it is just this evaluating mind that is blocking your way to seeing beyond, into the unborn. So long as you're searching for a thing, an entity, some stuff, you'll come up empty handed. You have to bore into nothing - and see.

In Zen parlance, nothing/emptiness is the big question. It is not objective or subjective - these are human terms having to do with human perception and brain processing.

As I've said, the point here is close to what science does - not so much to understand, but to work up a model, even if it's Hilbert Space, that can render results. So the point is not to work up an answer for the rational mind (always looking for something), but to get spirituality to work for you.

As mentioned, its not for everyone, and IME, those lacking an almost deadly
skepticism get nowhere.

JL
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
(Thread) Insanity: [Saying] the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

A. Einstein


;>\
jstan

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
I have heard of one study that compared the perception people of different ages have for elapsed time. They found that older people tend to feel time is going slower than it is. And so they tend to feel that time is going faster and faster; a common perception. Our ability as organisms to sense the passage of time implies we have embedded within us fairly good clocks; clocks that can function even without reference to the sun's progression.

While this is not entirely unexpected, it is really interesting. And suggestive.
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
Dr. F....if by "warm fuzzy feelings" you mean communicating with alien entities, becoming everything, or transcending time and space, then yeah. Warm Fuzzy Feelings :-)
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
That is exactly what I mean when I use the words
"a warm fuzzy feeling"
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