Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 21, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
Or you can find nothingness
and see what really it is

NOTHING

and I MEAN Nothing


I'll bet you have no idea how fundamentally true this statement is.


Or....


Maybe you do.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
I think after 60,000 years of trying to describe "Spiritual" experiences and God, that they would have figured it out.

But from my vantage point, I can see why they haven't figured it out, because it's impossible, since it doesn't exist the way they want to describe it, so it lacks the words necessary to describe it

There are no words for something that we want to describe that doesn't exist
MH2

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
Or until the world is paved over with Dr F. stands dispensing advice at 5 cents per.
WBraun

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
Dr F -- "no words for something that we want to describe that doesn't exist"


For you nothing exist anyways to begin with except for that 9 billion dollar tube that was made by stealing the money from poor hard working people only to smash some sh!t around and tell
them nothing exists but what you say is only.

In the end you'll fall into the sucker yourself and become nothing and cease to exist ......
jstan

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
In a successful cross cultural situation, one tries to use a dictionary or an interpreter, or one starts learning the other's language. That isn't happening here.


A really excellent example is the very recent attempt to generate a philosophical and definitive discussion of the "soul" robust enough to last for generations and succinct enough to astonish the mighty. What came out was that we don't have a consensus as to what a "soul" is. Not even the barest trace of an agreement.

That is what the "scientist" types have been saying all along. Hard to have a discussion that renormalizes human understanding when one person is talking chickens and the other turkeys.


Anytime the spiritually oriented try to define what they mean, instead of listening, the science types quickly dismiss their ideas as inferior by the criteria the science types themselves set up

Here you can help me, Jan. What is the criteria the "spiritual types" follow? I have not detected any. I see a stream of english words for which the speaker has his own idiosyncratic meanings, all of them opaque to me. Like soul. When I read "soul" I scroll.

If that makes me the bad guy, go for it.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 21, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
There is nothing harmful in most forms of spirituality and often great beauty and comfort.


I have no idea what form of spirituality you are talking about. Not that there are not beauty and comfort in the quest. But the goal is what is true, beyond all mental concepts. This cannot get lost since it's the Golden Fleece.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
All the cartoons, YouTube links, Wiki's, Quoates; Seem like commercials:

They all feel like someone is trying to sell something.

Whats the difference of that, and what go-B got banished for?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 21, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
So here we are shouting at each other across a chasm as large as the Grand Canyon. In the meantime I can say I've learned a lot about science and the scientific mind set in the process, but I don't think much has been learned about the spiritual world view.



Maybe its cuz there aint nothing to learn?


HAHAHA! Sorry bout that. It was like low hanging fruit just begging for the plucking.

But seriously don't you think there might be a glimmer of truth to it? I mean at least science has a system of proven learning that results in tangible realities that lead us deeper into the complexities of this world. Complexities so profound and seemingly as yet undiscovered that the alternate or parallel reality that spirituality lays claim to may yet be explained as just another chunk of the reality we already know.

At least it offers that much possibility. Now in terms of the fine art of spiritual learning what is ever on the table other than grandiose yet vague, mysterious unsubstantial attempts at providing meaning to various yearnings, desires, anxieties and anthropogenic navel gazing that is all very interesting but has yet to cough up anything more substantive than being related to a monkey dosn't feel right, so it just isn't so, or near death experiences prove that the spirit has left the body..... then changed its mind apparently.

Now don't get me wrong - I find the later particularly fascinating and generally no better explained by science, but thats where it stands - unexplained for now. We have learned much from science because it offers much to learn with tangible and practical results. At best religious belief provides a process of feeling good and purposeful, but explains nothing and with each passing year appears to become ever closer to fraudulently at odds with what we increasingly know for fact.

Yes I know. There is a good explanation for that. It is the devil at work!

Jan, would you say -if you could look at it dispassionately and without regard to societal implications for a sec - that spirituality (and its hunchback cousin, religion) may have arisen as a system of explanation for the unexplainable and it served a purpose to that effect that it perhaps can no longer serve? Perhaps it was an attempt for which it never had any business in the first place? It then morphed into a system of structural practical governance which workedc just fine until uppity science started running away with the ball so bad that its authority is now at risk as are all the associated house of cards rule book moralities set in stone.

You must admit, it is an interesting thought. No doubt one that only the devil would dream up.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
JC said;
[quoteIf you can accept the idea that 'something' or as JL prefers 'nothingness' creates the universe, then the first level of creation is through particles that we call sub-atomic particles. I observe that these are thought particles that can be directly influenced if you wish by another thought.

The next step in this thought creating is to establish persistence of particles. This is done by heavy thought particles (a molecular nucleus) trapped inside a rapid swarm of lighter particles trapped in orbital electron shells.] [/quote]

This is some of the best creative thought I've read on here.

Jus Think'in
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Bruce;

Maybe its cuz there aint nothing to learn?

Sorry for u..
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Maybe its cuz there aint nothing to learn?

Sorry for u..

My you are a judgemental fellow aren't you? What would jesus say you naughty boy?

You will note that I asked a question and even qualified it with a "maybe". I would hope that you would recognize by this that I am open to the idea that ther actually is something to learn.... if only it could present itself in a learnable manner, one that can be taken with something more substantive in evidence than "faith".

Yes thats right - I am open to exploring and even being convinced of the idea. How about you cowboy? Can you say the same about my idea?
MH2

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
beyond all mental concepts


Beyond emotions and feelings, too? How would you know you had tuned in to what the quest was about, as opposed to the part of your brain faithfully tending to digestion?
WBraun

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
Jan threw em all a beautiful curve ball and they're all swinging blindly like crazy at it as usual ......
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
I believe John's whole premise is there is no language on the other side to translate or interpret. There is only 'experiencing', but maybe not experiencing in a 'normal' thinking sort of sense.

Interesting. The problem then is in the translation into language and apparently there is an imperative need to communicate this particular experience.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
uh, nice try at remaining relevant Werner. Somehow Jan strikes me as a straight shooter, unlike yourself.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
Maybe its cuz there aint nothing to learn?

I would consider this statement a judgement. Also voluntarily limiting one's perceptions and experiences.


Spirituality can and has been measured and proven in ways that tightly follow scientific procedures. I've seen it. Obviously, you have not and never will.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
Base replied;

Being uncivil isn't cool. I actually regret those who offended Go-B. He wasn't harming anything, and you can just not read his posts if you like.

That is part of his faith. Try to convert others. He wasn't being militant about it. I think that he was wronged.

I wanna try to use this to illustrate my understanding of mind, conscienceness, spirit, and soul...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
I would consider this statement a judgement. Also voluntarily limiting one's perceptions and experiences.


Spirituality can and has been measured and proven in ways that tightly follow scientific procedures. I've seen it. Obviously, you have not and never will.

obviously? OK wise guy as I said, it may be there and I am simple not recieving it for whatever reason. In other words there is a fault in the communication. I asume you are saying the problem exists because I am deaf but as I said I am interested in hearing regardless. A new language is required perhaps for myself and other dummies. All I'm saying is that equally possibly "you guys" are shitty at communicating no matter how loud you yell.

As per "judgement" - it is true that I am more skeptical than not, but not by much. I have these "feelings" too ya know. Lets put it this way.... My judgement is not qualified by certainty. It can be swayed if compelled to do so. Can your judgement be swayed or is it locked in by certainty?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
Jan: one tries to use a dictionary or an interpreter, or one starts learning the other's language. That isn't happening here.

That's a productive approach when there is there are two languages involved. I believe John's whole premise here is there is no language on the other side to translate or interpret. There is only 'experiencing', but maybe not experiencing in a 'normal' thinking sort of sense.

So it's not really a matter of translation unless John is prepared to translate 'infinite qualities' for us which, thousands of post later, he's made it clear he isn't going to do and that it would defeat the whole purpose even if he could.

[ Edit: sorry, I pushed the wrong button so reposted it... ]
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:57pm PT

I've seen it. Obviously, you have not and never will.

SS, that's the difference between u and Christ, He hopes that Bruce will. And will. And will. And.....
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