Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 17, 2013 - 01:28pm PT

Take a break for a short time, but don't stay away for long. I look forward to you posts and reading the word of G-d. It's like refreshing rain for a parched desert.

Even when these non-believers complain and whine, the word of G-d gets in through the cracks and crevasses of their hard hearts. His word will not return void.

Can't do it without you brother. Come back soon.

Messianic Rabbi Jonathan Cahn's Unapologetic Prophetic Message to America Goes Viral


The Presidential Inaugural Prayer message by Messianic Rabbi Jonathan Cahn on January 21, 2013:


Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 17, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
This goes without saying... but jogill is awesome!

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 17, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
He makes me all giggly and squishy, too.

Godel, Escher, Bach is five pounds of recursive loops. When finished with that one, it was obvious that Bach was a genius, Escher was cool, and I have no idea what that Godel guy was saying....

Feb 17, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
The ancients were puzzled by the fact that the set of counting numbers could be placed in one-to-one correspondence with a proper subset of these numbers, implying there were no more natural numbers than the squares of natural numbers, for instance. Hence there was the same "number" of numbers in each collection.

But were you aware that there are the same "number" of points on the line segment from 0 to 1 as there are in the three-dimensional unit cube sitting above that line segment? For example a point in 3-space has the coordinates x= .9071543... , y= .21212121..., z= .73412695... and the point on the line segment from 0 to 1 corresponding to it is .927013724111522...

There is a one-to-one correspondence here, see what it is? Can this idea be extended to N-space?

What Ed was alluding to: A chronon is a proposed quantum of time, that is, a discrete and indivisible "unit" of time as part of a theory that proposes that time is not continuous. While time is a continuous quantity in both standard quantum mechanics and general relativity, many physicists have suggested that a discrete model of time might work, especially when considering the combination of quantum mechanics with general relativity to produce a theory of quantum gravity (Wikipedia)

As an old mathematician whose area was complex analysis I would rather this not be true! (there is a discrete analysis but the traditional one involves continuity)


Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 17, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
Over the last few months, our fellow climber, Dr. Ed H., has introduced basically the same idea in several different ways, first with quantum mechanics, and secondly, with Hilbert space.

The crux of Ed’s thesis is (so far as I can tell) encapsulated in these short paragraphs.

“The main point is . . . that we depend on models to guide our thinking on physical theory and explanation, but those models, once they have served their purpose, often become irrelevant, or at worse, misleading.

"Such is the state of quantum mechanics. We "understand" quantum mechanics from the point of view that we can calculate the outcome of an experiment with amazing accuracy, but we might get hung up in Hilbert space, if we try to imagine that it is a part of the "real world." It doesn't have to be...

...but by focusing on those models, and taking them seriously as more than what they are, a model, allows for the creation of a straw man that can be easily knocked down... “

Here we have the assertion that we can adopt various models, numerical constructs (Hilbert space), and so forth, that allow us to predict with amazing accuracy, what will transpire in the material world. Ed goes on to state that the model or construct need not be "part of the real world,” but is only a tool that works. That is, the models and constructs do not perfectly represent or describe “reality,” much as a topo of the Salathe Wall, and the paper it is written on, is not, itself, the “real” granite route on El Cap.

Put differently, the value of the topo is in imparting practical information to assist our ascent of the Big Stone. Hilbert space can in turn be viewed as part of a methodology allowing scientists to chart and predict various things in time and space. A good topo works wonderfully, as do QM theories and Hilbert Space. But if we say that any of these tools or constructs are themselves mirror images of reality, or that, say, the Salathea topo contains the essential make up of the Salathe Wall, our claim is soon shot down.

I trust Ed will correct my misrepresentations, but the basic idea is well stated in the quotes, from Ed himself, and their meaning seems pretty self evident.

I mention this because it is one case where I actually agree with Ed in a fundamental way, though he might not agree with where I am going with it.

People on this thread, usually back channel, often ask me what the hell I am really driving at with what often seems like double talk. What am I really saying that happens with eyes open meditation, or during so-called “boundary experiences” reported here by John Gill and many others? These experiences have nothing to do with biblical doctrine, but some have the the tone and texture of religious experiences – whatever that means.

I believe part of the answer is just this. I have mentioned left and right brain functioning simply as examples of the different ways our minds work that everyone can vouchsafe for themselves. Everyone dreams, has ideas, feelings etc. that spring into their head from who knows where, and we all have non-linear experiences where time has little meaning. Experiences that are not themselves rational, but which also are not irrational or remotely wu wu. We have experiences that are not themselves extrusions from our rational minds. But they nonetheless are real – in many cases, they are experienced as more real than most of our passing lives, because boundary experiences come with a robust sense of presence lacking in our mundane moments.

Anyhow, what happens in mediation, especially eyes open meditation, which retards mental drifting and “states,” is that as beginners, we get bombarded with instructions to leave the mind alone, just let it go, and watch your breath and so forth. Eventually we get some separation from the constant grinding of our evaluating mind and can start actually watching it operate and intrude and comment on everything that enters our field of awareness. This is often our first realization that we are not our rational minds, rather our presence and awareness is abiding with it, sans separation. In other words, there is more than rational, discursive thought. It's just one very loud voice that we often mistake for "us."

Then slowly – or slowly for most of us – we start realizing that our rational mind does not necessarily serve up a perfect representation of the “real world,” rather it formulates and constitutes the chaos into patterns that allows us to master, to lesser or greater extents, the surrounding material world. It also is all-or-nothing in WHAT it ingests or computes, that being material, stuff, persons, places and things. And in this sense, the rational mind "works" in a very reliable and predictable way so long as we are "normal."

The next realization is that the rational mind is almost certainly an evolved cognitive tool that “works” and secures our survival in the physical world - but it is only a tool, an evolutionary “Hilbert Space” that does not capture reality per se, but casts the undifferentiated flux into forms that we can work with. However, getting back to Ed, the discursive mind serves a purpose – deal with the material world. If we ask it to do more, it’s output "becomes irrelevant, or at worse, misleading.”

That is, when we mistake rational thought for reality, in total, we have done with cognition what Ed warned us not to do with constructs and models - mistaking them for reality itself, as opposed to a working model or limited construct.

The question then becomes: If the rational mind is a tool, an interpretation, providing a limited and materialistically biased but remarkably practical and useful POV of “reality,” then by what other means can we encounter and embrace the undifferentiated flux or soup – neat, with no chaser.

How do we come to encounter reality itself?


Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:37am PT
They are all considered DEAD once they hit the Trash Bin, because that's the end for any living or dead material.
They will never come back to life.

Well, there is certainly some truth to this statement, considering you are condemning this otherwise viable biological material to a toxic chemical and pharmaceutical cesspool and to be buried for geologic time...

not only quite dead, but quite evil to thus treat what may have once been precious to you...based upon the beautiful pictures you share with us...

The varying degrees of death in plants
1) some plants are completely rotted, and not a single cell of the plant is still alive
2) some plants have lost their meristem, some cells are still alive, but it would take an in-lab cell culture to revive plant growth
3) some plants have rotted or been disfigured by bugs to such a degree, that they will never look presentable for another 20 years, that they are not worth keeping
4) some plants have rotted stems and roots and are not able to restart a root system,

consider degrees of dead as in rich vegetative topsoil ready to feed the growth of young plants

vs the toxic chemical cesspool of a landfill


consider dead, as in a green salad served to you in a fine restaurant

vs. slimy rotting cabbage flung into a mine tailings pond

hold one in one hand and the other in the other hand and let me know how your own body feels about it...

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 18, 2013 - 01:01am PT
the 'physical universe' is an invention of the 'spiritual universe' (or whatever you may choose to call awareness or source energy)

the observed local integrity of the 'physical universe' is dependent upon local agreements

these local agreements are locked in place by very sophisticated encryption at the level of thought particles moving in high-speed complex patterns to form molecules, and thus maintain the integrity of 'masses' in the 'physical universe'

(sub-atomic particles are thoughts...a bit like lego blocks)

these encryption patterns are designed in such a way that only an unencumbered awareness can pass through them to non-distructably influence the physical molecule

any mental encumbrance will block passing awareness through the encryption patterns

these complex encrypted patterns of molecules were developed over a long period of time during earlier stages of the universe in order to maintain the persistence of thought creations in physical space (it is frustrating to spend a lot of time creating a 'something' only to have it destroyed by a 'someone' with incompatible thoughts)

we have had a long time to forget about this sort of thing, hence our seeming to be buried in 'mysteries' that are really just geological stacks of ancient unappreciated thoughts (i.e. physical material) ... which we occasionally recycle into some other creative effort

and noting that a lot of this created physical stuff has stacked up across astronomical time

(those who remember and perceive a little bit of this knowledge are called 'wizards' or some such, and feared and carefully ridiculed and weeded out of 'society'; or else honored as 'gurus' or 'geniuses' or 'heroes' or 'super athletes' etc.)

the science of chemistry does not observe or understand these encryption patterns in physical molecules, but has learned by experimentation a set of rules that allows recombining them into physical substances with varying properties (this is especially interesting where the research involves biochemistry and DNA molecules)

nuclear physics also does not observe or understand these encryption patterns in molecules, but does observe various types of energy relationships and also smashes these encryption patterns using highly energetic particles, thus releasing a complex of chaotic particles to study in various ways

i anticipate that SLAC LCLS observations modeled in supercomputers may open peoples eyes to rediscover these encrypted patterns holding together the physical universe...quite literally the 'keys to the universe'...possibly a greater breakthrough in scientific understanding than the microscope and telescope combined...

unfortunately LCLS only allows a snapshot, and cannot observe the interlocking motion patterns, as it instantly destroys the target with the energy of its beam

(note that it is in fact quite possible to transcend the physical universe by means known to eastern mystics and various others)

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 18, 2013 - 03:58am PT
It seems to me that Ed and Largo are now reaching some kind of synthesis?

The main difference between their synthesis and a book like the Tao of physics is that it is a synthesis minus any form of religion and it makes use of what we know now about primate behavior and the construction of the human brain?

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 18, 2013 - 04:15am PT
And now comes the announcement that Obama is seeking to establish a ten year program involving many different national science institutes to study the workings of the human brain in a pattern programmed after the program to decode the human genome.


Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 18, 2013 - 04:36am PT
Yeah, they say it's 'different' than Henry's EU brain project, but you can tell the bug has been put in Obama's ear that we got left behind in physics when we abandoned the SSC and the same might happen in biomedical research if we don't match the effort on this continent.

Hebrews 1:3
Feb 18, 2013 - 06:29am PT
Hey Tom Cochrane, as a side note I also work for the local power company!

Apologies accepted, but your not alone in this and in the end it is my decision to acquiesce to the group, but I'm not going to keep posting on the taco, only to be censored on how I do it!

I started posting on Politics, God and Religion vs. Science, to keep it mainly in one place and not run over onto other threads to much.

For twenty years, all I did was climb, think, or dream about it, and have been out of the game as long with finger injuries! I started posting here after reading TR's done by old friends, and when Bachar passed, that's when I started talking about God and Jesus!

There are some sorrowful things in the bible, that can rub people the wrong way, but there's much more to be joyful about! But the difference between Christ and all other religions or philosophies, is God said that He had to step in by sending Jesus to do a saving work, that apart from Him we can do nothing! Then He put the ball in our court, and tells us that we have to respond with faith to please Him!...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mr. Gill, said maybe someone should start a thread called "Scientific and philosophical Discussion - No Religion", maybe I should start one called "Just Religion"?

So my friends, carry on!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
Feb 18, 2013 - 07:35am PT
Go - B , I read your whole post - not just on principle either! About "the ball is in our court".... Agreed, in principle. the best little bit of scripture that resonates with me is "God helps those who help themselves", Which I interpret to mean that "god" looks favorably on us directing our resources at improving our lot in life on this earth. Everything else is gravy, including genuflecting to the big guy in the sky.

It seems to me that Ed and Largo are now reaching some kind of synthesis?

The main difference between their synthesis and a book like the Tao of physics is that it is a synthesis minus any form of religion and it makes use of what we know now about primate behavior and the construction of the human brain?

It also seemed to me that there is some intimation that there is not "parallel realities" at all, just that which is known, and that which is unknown (to paraphrase D Rummsfeld) which may yet be known and perhaps even explained by scientific process, even if to date it "seems" only "spiritual".

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 18, 2013 - 08:15am PT
go-B, i'm not sure censorship is the right term for it

it's more a matter of gauging what is appropriate to share with this particular campfire discussion

there are various sorts of things that i might discuss in different company that just land sideways with this group, so i don't

the point of this thread is to prove that all religion is religioulous, as still driven hard line by some

just quoting scripture has the opposite effect of what you intend

yet the thread has evolved in much more interesting directions

your personal thoughts, as in your previous post, are well appreciated

i learned more about you and your reasoning about the world in that one post than in years of your previous postings

and it would be fine if you want to start your own thread topic
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
Feb 18, 2013 - 08:28am PT
What tom said. As well I believe that your god would also view it favorably.... but of course that is merely mental speculation on my part!

Hebrews 1:3
Feb 18, 2013 - 08:40am PT
Sorry, "religioulous", sounds like a Bill Maher sequel!
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2013 - 08:47am PT
I think you are being negative and very judgemental on a subject you seem not to understand

Plants don't feel, I have may feel sad that a plant is half dead, and yet I still throw it away.

But what do my feeling have to do with anything.

I can tell you this, it is a learning experience, and I will try and learn what went wrong with my cultivation skills that caused the subsequent death.

In fact, the death of plants has made me what is called a "Master Grower"
The reason that I have so many dead is because I am working with some of the most difficult plants to cultivate on the planet.

It's my challenge, my adventure, my grand science experiment to obtain the most rare, most difficult, the slowest possible growth. Which in turn are also the easiest to kill, most finicky, have the longest dormancy's, and so on.

Death is a big part of exotic plant culture, and the way we deal with death is ...
ready for it...


But I have more plants, I have seeds, I have cuttings... a new plant will fill the spot of the dead
It' my own little "Wonderland of Rocks" in my Garden, First Ascents around every corner

compost my beloved???

No. 1 reason not to:
I don't want rotting plants crawling with bugs anywhere Near my living plants. The possiblity of having disease spread is too high.

2) I don't want to see my beloved rotting in a pile of other trash.

3) Out of Sight, Out of Mind
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2013 - 08:49am PT
Goobbers can post scripture IF he types in every word of it

That's the rules, NO CUT AND PASTE Scripture

Otherwise, I don't care if goobs has every other post
Go wild!

Hebrews 1:3
Feb 18, 2013 - 08:56am PT

Feb 18, 2013 - 08:57am PT
In fact, the death of plants has made me what is called a "Master Grower"

Delusion is your master.

You're subordinate to the real Master.

You can't grow sh!t to begin with.

It does not ultimately depend on you alone.

But if you do not care for the living entity correctly it will die because you've brought it into a controlled environment under your care.

But you are not the real master of all the elements and energies required for the life force to be sustained nor are you the "original" life force where from all "life" comes.

In other words you have all the qualities but not the quantity to sustain "life" itself .....

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2013 - 09:07am PT
The Plants have No life without me
I sustain them, I provide a platform for life
They only exist because of me, I am their God

When I die, my plants will be no longer

They will either go in the trash bin, or be sold to other growers
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