Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 13, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Dr F,

yeah, we know you just started the thread and thus have zero say so thereafter

but really, you do use this thread to post all kinds of cactus pictures that happen to be of personal interest to you

cool, I guess whatever we all want to post, just go ahead and do it

relavant to the thread's title, assuming "science" justifies your cactus pics because the plants were created by man using genetics

science related could be car pictures, really any damn thing, right, cool with you?
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
Post anything you want
except car photos,
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 13, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Credit: Don Paul

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 13, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
That's a Great pic upthread! That does asmuch for me as a pic of U infront of ElCap.
I seriously trained on an Erg for three yrs at Santa Barbara. I love/hate that machine. Thanks science!
I imagine if U could position ur push'in foot between the stirrups, (maybe by improvising a piece of wood? connecting the two foot beds) so that your push'in force would be down the middle. Thus allowing ur upper body to be more in balance?
Stay on that thing though! Get some technique, and seek out a lake that rents single sculls
and give it a row! You won't regret it!
I must say, rowing in a boat with 8 other men. Is THE most Zengasmic experience I've ever had! 8 men/women must "come" together at once under one voice,(the coxswain) under one mind, under one power, under one balance to achieve a coherence of one perfect stroke after another one. The feeling of "Swing" in a boat leaves you with a sensation of being as powerful as 8 men. Its the most intense shared conscienceness between 8 men, at the same time,
I've experienced!
Duece was a rower!

Jus Relat'in

Mar 13, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
[quote]The the East and West, they should cooperate.[/quote

I like this quote from the movie..."Modern materialism strips people of the need to feel responsible. And often enough, so does religion. But I think if you take quantum mechanics seriously enough, it puts the responsibility squarely in your lap, and it doesn't give answers that are clear cut and comforting. It says yes the world is a very big place, its very mysterious, mechanism is not the answer, but I'm not going to tell you what the answer is!"


Somewhere out there
Mar 13, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
but really, you do use this thread to post all kinds of cactus pictures that happen to be of personal interest to you

 And then there's me. I can be transfixed by a good cacti photo.

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 13, 2013 - 09:32pm PT

relavant to the thread's title, assuming "science" justifies your cactus pics because the plants were created by man using genetics

So Norton,, This man ""Created"" these plants? By what definition do you go by? He didn't
form them with his breathe. Did he? Naw, he sculpted them, carved them, formed them.
"Created" them out of "materials" that were already there for billions of years. This is how i
understand what Jesus did in Genisis 1. Language is EVERYTHING!
I see U got a new pope.. Argentinian...

Jus Pontiffy'in

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 13, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Hi Blue,

I am sure Dr F will see your post and respond in person

but to answer your seeming disbelief, yes indeed

"man" does create all kinds of plants from man altered genetic seeds, yes!

this kind of stuff has been going on for a very very long time in efforts to increase crop yields

hopefully Dr F will enlighten you further on the scientific aspects of genetic plants creation and modification! He has spoken of his own scientific efforts at creating different kinds of cacti for example, he is very well known and sells his work worldwide

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 13, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
"Every atom in your as#@&%e was forged in the heart of a dying star."

Carl Sagan

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 13, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
I really enjoy this short talk by PhD Michio Kaku. He's willing to stick his neck out and be very brave, much like Einstein did.

To say that Einstein didn't know there was a higher power, or didn't believe that there was a higher power that ordered the Universe and set the physical laws into motion is to not know the true Einstein.

Perhaps a G-d that is a G-d of order, and sets physical laws that govern everything, also sets spiritual laws? I think so.

Michio Kaku: Is God a Mathematician?

Is G-d a mathematician? I think so. That is indeed one attribute and characteristic of G-d. (By the way, G-d gives gifts and skills to mankind. These gifts and skills come from G-d. Read the Book of Exodus. The skills of the craftsman were given to them by G-d. If you're good at something that is in turn good, then thank HaShem. I'm sure Newton realized his gifts were from G-d, and he was indeed very gifted.)

You can't read the whole word of G-d and not recognize that G-d is a G-d of order, perfection, and he uses numbers and patterns to illustrate that throughout the Word of G-d. Yes there is numerology throughout The Good Book. There is indeed Bible Code. Sir Isaac Newton was right. But he didn't find it. He didn't have the computer.

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 14, 2013 - 12:19am PT

Thanks for this video ...

Neil deGrasse Tyson: We Live in a Cosmic Shooting Gallery

Sounds like PhD deGrasse has been reading the Book of Revelation.

Now I really like PhD Neil deGrasse Tyson, but I have somewhat against thee. The Bible, G-d's Holy Word has showed us the power and the destructive abilities of asteroids, meteoroids, meteors, meteorites thousands of years ago, long before modern science knew anything about it or even had the inclination to ask the questions.

Read about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Book of Genesis 19.

And let's not forget Wormwood that is yet to come ... Revelation 8.

Wormwood is described as a mountain on-fire falling out of the sky. Hhhhhhmmmmm. Where have I heard that description before? Gee PhD Gene Shoemaker used that close description. Gee, PhD Neil deGrasse Tyson uses that description, Mt. Everest falling out of the sky.

Did they read The Book of Revelation?

Scientific Scenario Of A Comet's Impact And The "Wormwood Star" Prophecy
by Marshall Beeber

And sure enough our worldwide NEA/NEO detection system even knows the Biblical prophecy ...

Project Wormwood


We will know its coming yet we won't be able to stop it.

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 14, 2013 - 12:24am PT
"the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
Albert Einstein

"For me," he added, "the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."
Albert Einstein

Addressing the idea that the Jews are God's chosen people,
Einstein wrote that "the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

Albert Einstein: God is a Product of Human Weakness
The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 14, 2013 - 12:43am PT
Einstein: God is Good at Math, but the Bible is “Pretty Childish” (and what I would say to him about that)
October 8, 2012

Even the word “God” is a problem, as we saw above. Rosen explains:
That’s not, however, because Einstein rejected the notion of God, but because he took the idea of God very seriously, elevating it above a religious conception to a mathematical one. To Einstein, the elegance of the phsyics [sic] guiding the universe were God’s handiwork, the mark not of a humanlike being that maintains control over the world, but of a divine beauty in nature’s laws.

Einstein expresses what God is like as follows:
Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible laws and connections, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in fact, religious.

He believed in a G-d, perhaps a creator very good at math, yet he had problems with the stories of the Bible. However, he seemed to be very impressed with Yeshua (Jesus) of the New Covenant, The Son of G-d, Emmanuel – who was G-d with Us here on Earth.

To say he didn’t believe in G-d, a higher power, would be wrong.

"G-d does not play dice with the Universe."

-Albert Einstein

Mar 14, 2013 - 01:08am PT
Most of what we know of Socrates we know through Plato. How much of that is Socrates and how much is Plato is hard to tell. It is unlikely that Plato remembered the dialogues well enough to transcribe them verbatim, and even if he did he likely modified them to suit his own purposes.

Doubt as a theme in philosophy came to prominence with Descartes. Could what we think of as real be only a dream? Do our senses tell us the truth? Descartes decided that even if all you thought of as true was in fact false, you still could not be deceived about the fact that you exist. Is that much consolation? Is it true? All of what you perceive, remember, believe, and think may have been created in the previous instant and it might disappear in the next instant without "you" being any the wiser. And what is time?

Descartes got beyond the problem of doubt by assuming that a benign God would not create our senses and our mind only to deceive us. We might not be satisfied by that reassurance, today.

Like anything else, doubt can be carried too far, but it is perfectly okay to wonder what Largo means by, "I simply traversed into being energy".


Mar 14, 2013 - 01:23am PT

You're pretty damn sharp.

One of the sharper tools in the shed .......

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 14, 2013 - 02:43am PT
Being energy (as in human "being") is simply your experience with your language chip removed. When we disconnect from labeling anything - which we silently do with language - you're just there, and everything is new. The problem is few people have the patients or drive to wait out the surface anxiety of not thinking, as he rational mind is screaming that they are wasting time. "What's the point?" That will ring out for many months. Years, even.

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 14, 2013 - 03:07am PT

Descartes attempted to address the former issue via his method of doubt. His basic strategy was to consider false any belief that falls prey to even the slightest doubt. This “hyperbolic doubt” then serves to clear the way for what Descartes considers to be an unprejudiced search for the truth. This clearing of his previously held beliefs then puts him at an epistemological ground-zero. From here Descartes sets out to find something that lies beyond all doubt. He eventually discovers that “I exist” is impossible to doubt and is, therefore, absolutely certain. It is from this point that Descartes proceeds to demonstrate God’s existence and that God cannot be a deceiver. This, in turn, serves to fix the certainty of everything that is clearly and distinctly understood and provides the epistemological foundation Descartes set out to find.


I have never been comfortable with the operative certainty of Cartesian doubt. Descartes attempts to arrive at epistemological ground zero by the mechanism of doubt which is itself hardly reliable. Doubt seems to me to have the further drawback of being conditional on too many indeterminate, transient factors.
Descartes , as far as I am aware ,never establishes the epistemological credentials of doubt itself . He never established the rationality of doubt . He attempted to imply that in a philosophical sense doubt was the equivalent of a universal axiom, or ratio, against which the external world could be balanced in its particulars and truth could be ascertained.. Doubt was the central part of an equation that allowed Descartes to prove Cogito ergo sum. Doubt in this equation was equal to zero.

Moreover, Descartes was brilliant. In more ways than one.

Put him in a Lycra jumpsuit and he would be instantly indistinguishable from any member of a generic arena rock band from the 70s..
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Mar 14, 2013 - 03:41am PT
Yes, the language chip is not up to the task of elucidating the fundamental reality underlying the world or the universe we experience around us nor will our sciences ever be, however advanced they become.There was a famous sci-fi writer, if my memory serves me correctly,who stated "the universe is not only stranger than we imagine but stranger than we can imagine.When we look out at the night sky the stars we see are not as they are but as they were in the past and not just one past but a nearly infinite number of pasts.When we look into the subatomic realm things are stranger still,smaller and smaller particles of matter whose properties and in some ways very existence are observer dependent.Our rational minds will never explain the initial creation since they are finite in that our time is based, and in the conventional world, on the notion of beginning and end.If we can't even answer the most basic question of from where, how and when we came to be it kind of nullifies all that is subsequently built upon this non-knowledge. Would it matter in the slightest bit, as far as our power of observation goes, if we substituted thought for matter and considered ourselves a force or vessel that contains self replicating pattern of thought here for experience? Forgive my ignorance, i am no scientist,theologian, or even pol.

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 14, 2013 - 04:24am PT
MH2 is paying attention>
Just hasn't met the Holy Ghost yet^

Social climber
Mar 14, 2013 - 04:43am PT
hey there say, all...

was just up late, here and wondering who was posting so late, over there...

(well, wherever you all are) :)

say dr F... nice cactus pictures, :)
well, night all, :)
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