Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 10, 2013 - 09:14am PT
Many NASA images verify the presence and NASA moon-walkers verify there are spacecraft on the far side of the Moon. Mitchell is one.

You clearly don't have a clue as to what the term "verify" means. Your examples of "verification" of science in the bible also shows this error abundantly.

What I would like to know is if you are a professional school teacher you must be a member of a professional association. All such associations require their members to conduct themselves by professional code of ethics and within the realm of their certification and training. They enforce this by a formal system of enquiry and discipline.

Is your professional association aware that you are teaching this abortion of twisted logic? Is your "expertize" in scripture really accepted as legitimate evidence in a science classroom or is it considered outside the bounds of acceptable curricula?

Where in gods name do you work? Iran?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 10, 2013 - 10:41am PT
So long as any religious or spiritual text is considered as a source of quantifiable information, you are totally missing the point of the text in the first place. It would be like studying science for clues on spirituality, or looking into the brain for evidence of human experience. Without some sense of limitation in both material and spiritual realms, while abandoning the childish belief that either is the "all and everything," you will never escape a circular argument or your own making, while blaming the other camp for overstating their case.

JL
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 10, 2013 - 10:59am PT
Bruce,

Seriously how dense are you? Do you think for a minute that I talk about "forbidden secret knowledge" or teach any of this ever in a public classroom? What do you not understand regarding separation of church and state?


However, we should be able to discuss any idea openly here on ST especially, when this is on-topic concerning the title of this thread. Or are you against reasoned debate and open thought and discussion?

Who are you going to burn at the stake first Bruce? Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Sir Isaac Newton, Einstein? Who? They were all fathers of modern science and devout believers in G-d, gods, or seekers. Most were of the Judeo-Christian faiths.

By the way, I would like to add one of our dear heroes to the list:
John Muir

(He was a devout believer and he did science, and he was an incredible mountaineer/climber by even today's standards)










Dr. Ed,

Take the challenge. I'm not stretching the interpretation of the word of G-d to show it is most often in agreement with modern science, and valid thousands of years before modern science ever caught up.

You can't get over the fact that G-d works through man to write his revelation and truth to be revealed and shared with the world.

He tells us in his word he does just so, and to confound the wise that lean and trust on their own understanding, which is flawed and incomplete. He also gets the truth out through the folly of preaching and teaching, another technique that confounds the wise.

2 Peter 1:21 (Cambridge KJV)
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

Jeremiah 9:23-24 (Cambridge KJV)
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.


1 Corinthians 1:21 (Cambridge KJV)
"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

1 Corinthians 1:27 (Cambridge KJV)
"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"


G-d plays multi-dimensional chess through time and space and you can't wrap your head around that idea. He can run circles around our reasoning.


Why does G-d do this? To humble us before him. We are prideful and sinful. Pride always comes before the fall.


But, he made the truth of salvation very easy to understand, that even a child can get it.




So long as any religious or spiritual text is considered as a source of quantifiable information, you are totally missing the point of the text in the first place. It would be like studying science for clues on spirituality, or looking into the brain for evidence of human experience. Without some sense of limitation in both material and spiritual realms, while abandoning the childish belief that either is the "all and everything," you will never escape a circular argument or your own making, while blaming the other camp for overstating their case.

JL



JL,


I challenge you to watch NOVA: Newton's Dark Secrets

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/newton-dark-secrets.html


That is exactly what Sir Isaac Newton was all about and that was the whole idea behind natural philosophy, to know all of G-d; the Creator of the natural world, the Universe, and to come to know him through the physical natural world he made, through science and by studying the word of G-d.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
That is exactly what Sir Isaac Newton was all about and that was the whole idea behind natural philosophy, to know all of G-d; the Creator of the natural world, the Universe, and to come to know him through the physical natural world he made, through science and by studying the word of G-d.


Newton made the very mistake I was mentioning - hoping that a close study of the natural world would answer spiritual questions, and finding no such thing, blaming spiritual for not "manning up" in material form.

Simply put, there are questions and inquiries that lie beyond materialism - of that we may be sure. If materialism answers all of your questions - so be it. If it doesn't, it is proof only that the inquiry is not a material one. If every inquiry must be a material quest, that's your decision, and more power to you. It's entirely beside the point unless your belief system is a materialist rendition of fundamentalism, and as the saying goes - never argue with someone stuck in a perspective.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
of that we may be sure...

Really, I don't know who's more delusional regarding "spirituality" - Largo or Klimmer. Best of luck to each one though.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#288715

It's really a fun movie, you all should see it if you haven't already. :)
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
To defeat others is the starting point of hatred and vengeance.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Hey, I can match that pablum...
Don't judge.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
I must not be praising Sam Harris, Dan Dennett, Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, Steven Pinker, Steven Weinberg, Lawrence Krauss, Michael Shermer,Bertrand Russell, Bill Maher, Dr. F, Jingy, et al enough. I'll try harder. :)


 Not sure how my name got onto that distinguished list…. But, if it makes anyone out there think that they too (if they are just a norma guy like me) can be just as atheist as the rest of them… then I guess I have done some good.



near Werner style

OMG. Really?! I'll try to be clearer!


 see..?

I've stopped saying this and using the acronym….. Even in jest I have dropped it…. No more blessings at sneezes either…. I hold no special power to bless and neither do those who say it.

But I will not hold this against you neither… hahaha.

Cheers HFCS
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Yes, and,

Better is to speak unpleasant truth than to tell lies.

Hey Duck, where are you?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
spirituality: (1) state or condition of spirit; (2) any practice of sorts whose aim is spiritual development or spiritual hygienics (3) a belief system based on this

Only ol' time religions and theologies make a mess of this word, its conceptualization or definition. I've got a spirit. I've got a spirituality. They are material-based. They are the synergistic sum of my body's metabolism. They are mortal. No contradiction, here.

Only in ol time religions stuck in the "ghost in the machine" idea does a spirit equate to an immaterial ghost of some sort.

My spirit is material-driven. That is awesome! :)

.....

Jingy, believe it or not... I used to (a) think the same way regarding all allusions to god, spirit, soul, miracle, etc... Then I studied linguistics and communications in public settings, in addition to divine mythology, which has its place in literature eg and I changed positions; (b) get angry even, in my 20s esp, at the atheists, scientists, agnostics, etc who knew better who would use religious figures of speech and confuse potentially at least the conversation. Let me just say here as I'm in a rush of sorts that there is more than one perspective or strategy on this metaphorical, figure of speech religious usage. It's hard to avoid it altogether in public settings and sometimes we can look really anal retentive when we do.

Food for thought: Would it be your approach to give up words like spirit, faith, believe, belief - even God - entirely because they are associated with religion and old theologies? Just food for thought.

P.S. Remember this one?

I thank the Gods everyday I am an atheist.

(That's funny.) :)
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
Would it be your approach to give up words like spirit, faith, believe, belief - even God - entirely because they are associated with religion and old theologies? Just food for thought.

 Yes, yes, yes, yes even yes. Didn't need to give it much thought… I feel I am mostly beyond all these words and they are just that… words and use them very little these days… But as a matter to checking I may attempt to keep track of how often I use them over the next week or so just to see if I am really beyond it/them.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
I've said it before and I will say it again. It is difficult to imagine your death as a final end of your life. We like to think of our bodies like they are tractors or something, and our consciousness like something that just can't disappear, from an intuitive sense. That is why we have so many religions.

Werner is the only one to straight up say that you need proof of God, and he has it. I'm perfectly willing to listen to him.

John, when you went in for surgery, how did your consciousness behave? The one that is seperate from the meat brain? I recently lost half my knee, so I know what I experienced.

The anestheitist said count down from ten and I might have made it to seven. The next instant I woke up in recovery. So I would conclude that when they gave me the physical chemicals in anesthesia, that knocked out my meat brain and my spiritual brain totally out.

How can something physical affect something that is not?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 10, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
Jingy, appreciate the reply.

Because I use them, don't think I'm any more theistic than you, though, it's just a different approach or strategy in our multi-strategy playbook.

I enjoy your posted videos.
Cheers.

P.S. I "believe" you're a Sam Harris fan, correct me if i'm wrong. Sam wrote a piece on his blog not long ago re: spirit, spirituality regarding this very subject. I gave it a grade A. :)

Here it is: "In Defense of Spiritual"

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/a-plea-for-spirituality

In writing my next book, I will have to confront the animosity that many people feel for the term “spiritual.” Whenever I use the word—as in referring to meditation as a “spiritual practice”—I inevitably hear from fellow skeptics and atheists who think that I have committed a grievous error.

Case in point:


"God Gave Rock n Roll To You." I can roll with that, i.e., these lyrics, lol! To roll with them is the better strategy, imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQRYVsqVT3M

My opinion is that these English words are simply too useful, too versatile, to ingrained in culture (song, literature, etc) and thus too good to give up to religious institutions (which are dying anyway). The strategy (and challenge) is to provide them new contexts and then popularize these new contexts.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 10, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
My words:
That is exactly what Sir Isaac Newton was all about and that was the whole idea behind natural philosophy, to know all of G-d; the Creator of the natural world, the Universe, and to come to know him through the physical natural world he made, through science and by studying the word of G-d.

Your words:
Newton made the very mistake I was mentioning - hoping that a close study of the natural world would answer spiritual questions, and finding no such thing, blaming spiritual for not "manning up" in material form.

Simply put, there are questions and inquiries that lie beyond materialism - of that we may be sure. If materialism answers all of your questions - so be it. If it doesn't, it is proof only that the inquiry is not a material one. If every inquiry must be a material quest, that's your decision, and more power to you. It's entirely beside the point unless your belief system is a materialist rendition of fundamentalism, and as the saying goes - never argue with someone stuck in a perspective.

JL


Never would I claim the physical (the material) is above and beyond the spiritual in understanding and knowing G-d. It takes both approaches. They are complimentary and one expounds upon the other. Never do they disagree. When they seem to disagree, then that is a lack of understanding on our part, not G-d's.

The spiritual is very real. No other way to explain all the visions and dreams of Jesus that Muslims are having now all around the world and coming to faith in Yeshua HaMashiach as a result.

G-d is moving in very big ways the world over.

http://m.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2012/June/Dreams-Visions-Moving-Muslims-to-Christ/

http://youtu.be/LW1ui_RDYxQ



“For God speaks once, yea twice, yet man perceives it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he opens the ears of men and seals their instruction.” Job 33: 14-16
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 10, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
Another bromide for the Moose...
"Take time to read. It is the fountain of wisdom."

.....

btw, here's where Sam and I disagree...
"And I find neologisms pretentious and annoying."

Really! lol!

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/a-plea-for-spirituality

.....

How coincidental...
'Spirituality' is overused and ill defined.

Lawrence Krauss tweet, just today. (!)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 10, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
WBraun

climber
Feb 10, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
People here always say "The Universe doesn't care what you believe."

But it does.

This planet is part of the Universe.

You abuse this planet and it will start to abuse you.

Stupid people like cintune above just like to use quotes and cartoons irresponsibly use them for themselves without their full understanding.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 10, 2013 - 03:50pm PT


interesting video


There really is no reason for a deity

WBraun

climber
Feb 10, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
So now you're the deity making statements ^^^^ ......
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 10, 2013 - 05:28pm PT
You can't get over the fact that G-d works through man to write his revelation and truth to be revealed and shared with the world.

a lot like schizophrenia I suppose...


 there is no getting away from reality, unless one is a true believer type… then…… anything is possible…. including schizophrenia
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