Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 9, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
HFCS -
Jingy, the word is getting out. Finally at long last. 123 likes for your video, 0 dislikes. This is encouraging. :)

 What you talking'bout?

That ain't "My" bideo…. I just found it interesting and pointed enough to post it on this thread… It seemed to say what I feel better than I ever will.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 9, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
Jingy, I said "yours" in the sense that you linked to it here on this page.

If you visit the youtube site, you'll notice about 123 likes, 0 dislikes, that's what I was referring to.

.....

Tend to agree, BASE. Are you familiar with "Tragedy of the Commons" and so-called "wicked problems." They seem to apply here. Not on the thread, hahaha, but in our American culture and the world and in our species.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 9, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
Nonbelievers and believers are using different languages

I'm not sure if I buy this description of what separates the two. We both speak english here at least. I know you don't mean that so literally and effectively I get your drift. True to human nature, conflict breeds intransigence and competition, or if truth be told losing sight of the objective.

Isn't it true that we both wish to get to the truth? or is our real objective to win?

The way I see it the rationalists would be be willing to accept the existence of a creator and the absolute authority of a certain dogma - if there was a rational reason to believe it. "Feeling certain" dosn't cut it because we know that such certain but unsubstantiated feeling have a long history of proving false throughout human history and can be the result of many known real world influences on our psyche.

The theists will not accept the possibility of no creator or even that their understanding of a creator may be miles off of their belief. Even their notion of the ethical code, myths, and dogma is certain and unable to change regardless of contrary evidence. Again we know that such certainty can be explained through well understood patterns of human behavior, and there is no other compelling reason to explain it otherwise. The demand for certainty creates a self perpetuating feedback loop of deception. If you truly have faith you must be certain. If you are certain then contradictory evidence must be ignored. If that evidence becomes overwhelming then ignore it harder. This is a well known pattern of behavior.

Perhaps there is a parallel reality of understanding out there but it is reasonable to need something more than just feeling to believe it. I'm not saying that feeling (intuition) is without value but we know that intuition must be substantiated with evidence otherwise there no way to differentiate from prejudice or any other self deception.

The bottom line is that theists authority for explaining our world has been on the run from the successes of science for centuries now. It is their certainty not their faith that is their achilles heel.. The uncertainty inherent in a rationalist world view allows one to ponder and perhaps even accept the imponderable - the falsehood of ones belief. As far as I can tell the theists cannot say the same.

But maybe its all just a lot of bluff. As noted before if a gun is held to their head its amazing how easily religious belief will adjust to a new reality.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 9, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
HFCS -
Jingy, I said "yours" in the sense that you linked to it here on this page.


 I get it, understood, roger… clear as crystal.

Don't take this the wrong way...

I tend to read your posts as ambiguous at best… Part of me wants to say you're a big-time theist (near Werner style) (that whole if loving you blah, blah I don't want to be right thing… what was that? Hahaha) But the other side of my head says look at all these people on this thread who are talking about how HFCS hates god… could they all be wrong?

I'm going to try and not read your posts as flatly as I have more recently. I don't know… But I'm sure its you and not me! Hahaha
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 9, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
LOL. I don't know what could have led you to suspect that I was a theist, let alone a "big time theist." :)

I must not be praising Sam Harris, Dan Dennett, Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, Steven Pinker, Steven Weinberg, Lawrence Krauss, Michael Shermer,Bertrand Russell, Bill Maher, Dr. F, Jingy, et al enough. I'll try harder. :)

near Werner style

OMG. Really?! I'll try to be clearer!
WBraun

climber
Feb 9, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
HFCS is a closet theists.

The duck has seen him in there.

Actually there's no living entity that can escape the closet.

They just think they can .......
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 9, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
Isn't it true that we both wish to get to the truth? or is our real objective to win?

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

...The truth is only one can be right!
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 9, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
The demand for certainty creates a self perpetuating feedback loop of deception. If you truly have faith you must be certain. If you are certain then contradictory evidence must be ignored. If that evidence becomes overwhelming then ignore it harder. This is a well known pattern of behavior.


Yep. Ignore it even harder. That's about it.

Ignore it harder. Think about that. It's pretty funny and I'm going to steal that line for future use.
WBraun

climber
Feb 9, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
If you truly have faith you must be certain.

Truth is never based on "Faith".

Truth is always based on scientific evidence.

Faith and belief always change.

Truth is always truth according to time and circumstance .......
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 9, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
This seems fitting...

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

...shoulda, coulda, woulda!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 9, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
re: critics
re: "I'm an atheist, BUT..."

"Book critics or theatre critics can be derisively negative and earn delighted praise for the trenchant wit of their review. A politician may attack an opponent scathingly across the floor of the House and earn plaudits for his robust pugnacity. But let a critic of religion employ a fraction of the same direct forthrightness, and polite society will purse its lips and shake its head: even secular polite society, and especially that part of secular society that loves to announce, "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ."
Douglas Adams
MH2

climber
Feb 9, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Who cares about polite society? What does polite society care about climbing? Was Mark Twain polite in his comments on religion?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 9, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
Jstan - ok I give up. you're right. Werner and Go-b are speaking in tongues again. I think they do it to bambozzle me!

But let a critic of religion employ a fraction of the same direct forthrightness, and polite society will purse its lips and shake its head:

bingo! I Imagine its the same if you are in Russia and loudly criticize Putin. Everyone at the cocktail party would start looking over their shoulders and find someone else to go chat with! Religion is like a good old school dictatorship - To be feared, but to be polite lets just call it respect!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 9, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
Klimmer-
(and anyone else interested in Jewish vs Palestinian history)

I was very surprised to read you saying that the Palestinian Arabs are descended from Abraham and then you listed Esau as their patriarch? In fact, the Palestinians claim to be descended from Abraham's second wife Hagar and her son Ishmael. The father of Jacob and Essau was Isaac, the son of Abraham and Sarah.

In Jewish society, children get their ethnicity from the mother. If your mother was Jewish, so are you. If only your father is Jewish, you have to go through a formal conversion process. There is no indication that Hagar was Jewish and certainly when the Jews repeat their patriarchal lineage, they list Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not Ishmael. Even so, they did not get their Jewishness from Abraham but from Sarah.

The source of Palestinian anger against Jews goes back to Sarah. If you recall the story, she suggested to Abraham that he take Hagar, her servant girl for a wife, when she assumed she was barren. Doubtless she was afraid he was going to take a second wife and so she intervened to have influence on the process. Once she then became pregnant and had her own son, she cast Hagar and Ishmael into the desert where they nearly died of thirst (one wonders where Abraham was in all this).

The Biblical story says that an angel came and showed Hagar where to dig for water so that their lives were saved, thus indicating even from the Jewish perspective that God wanted the Palestinians to live. Meanwhile, on one of the few occasions when Yassar Arafat actually appeared to want to make peace with the Israelis, he was quoted as saying, "We are both children of Abraham, we are sons of the same father".
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 9, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
I find it amusing that I am accused of being "milk toast" by the Dr.F-HFCS axis of this thread, and "overly right brained" by the MikeL-Jan-Largo axis...
...being universally disappointing is a good place to be.


Ed-

I can guarantee you that you have never been accused of being overly right brained by anybody, let alone Mike, myself, or Largo.

Left Brain = logical, analytical, linguistic, bit by bit processing.
Right brain = artistic, musical, intuitive, emotional, visual processing
(or according to HFCS woo woo).

Personally, I wouldn't even accuse you of being overly left brain as I observe that you try very hard to see arguments from all perspectives, including those that are unfamiliar or just plain nutty as far as you can tell. (Athleticism and empathy also come from the right brain). And yes Bruce, we know that the brain is plastic and the two hemispheres are united and can process simultaneously.

And who would have thought that I would be posting definitions and corrections to details? jstan please take note.
jstan

climber
Feb 9, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
And who would have thought that I would be posting definitions and corrections to details? jstan please take note.

Jan, I take note of everything you post.

And there is no great difference between what you and Ed do. You both present the data with history as background material, go through your logical process, and then present the conclusion with an analysis of how it may either not be correct or may be only part of the story. That's why both of your outputs are a must read.

Up front I should say that Goldstone is the standard against which I measure everything. And as I have said before, Base is very securely in this same league along with others.

How many sites on the internet command talent at this level?
MH2

climber
Feb 9, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
Paul?

It was Bruce Kay who re-posted a commentary on left brain/ right brain as fertile ground for mythologizing. Which we all have a tendency toward.

The concluding statement:



it would be a shame if the simplistic myth drowned out the more fascinating story of how our brains really work.


Published on June 27, 2012 by Christian Jarrett, Ph.D in Brain Myths
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 9, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
MH2-

Thanks for the correction. I've changed it.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 9, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

17 They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them. 18 But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you. 19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, 20 I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you.

Two Covenants
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.


Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 **“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”**

Abraham Justified Before Circumcision
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

The Promise Granted Through Faith
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 9, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
Feb 9, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
Klimmer-
(and anyone else interested in Jewish vs Palestinian history)

I was very surprised to read you saying that the Palestinian Arabs are descended from Abraham and then you listed Esau as their patriarch? In fact, the Palestinians claim to be descended from Abraham's second wife Hagar and her son Ishmael. The father of Jacob and Essau was Isaac, the son of Abraham and Sarah.

In Jewish society, children get their ethnicity from the mother. If your mother was Jewish, so are you. If only your father is Jewish, you have to go through a formal conversion process. There is no indication that Hagar was Jewish and certainly when the Jews repeat their patriarchal lineage, they list Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not Ishmael. Even so, they did not get their Jewishness from Abraham but from Sarah.

The source of Palestinian anger against Jews goes back to Sarah. If you recall the story, she suggested to Abraham that he take Hagar, her servant girl for a wife, when she assumed she was barren. Doubtless she was afraid he was going to take a second wife and so she intervened to have influence on the process. Once she then became pregnant and had her own son, she cast Hagar and Ishmael into the desert where they nearly died of thirst (one wonders where Abraham was in all this).

The Biblical story says that an angel came and showed Hagar where to dig for water so that their lives were saved, thus indicating even from the Jewish perspective that God wanted the Palestinians to live. Meanwhile, on one of the few occasions when Yassar Arafat actually appeared to want to make peace with the Israelis, he was quoted as saying, "We are both children of Abraham, we are sons of the same father".



Jan,

You are correct. I mixed up Esau and Ishmael (typed it on the fly), yet both sons are of Abraham but from different mothers. When Sarah passed away, Abraham came back to Hagar and married her (she changed her name) and they had many more children.

The Abrahamic covenant to bless the world is obviously through Isaac, and the Arabs descending through Ishmael have obviously been blessed sitting on all the oil they have, providing them with record profits.

Have to disagree about the lineage and Jewishness. Originally the Jewishness and Abrahamic ancestry with said blessings was paternal, through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. Later due to war (loss of men, fathers) and Rabbitic Talmudic writings ancestry was changed to be through the maternal.

But we know DNA does not matter who wrote what or changed the tradition. If you have Jewish DNA ancestry, no matter through paternal or maternal, you are Jewish and can lay claim to "The Chosen People." But that doesn't save anyone in G-d's eyes. It means more blessings, but also more responsibility to carry out the covenant made between G-d and Israel when one knows they are Jewish. They still must come to know and ask forgiveness through the saving redemptive blood of Yeshua HaMashiach after the time Jesus came to Earth.

Thanks for correcting me.

Edit:

By the way, in the Gospels Yeshua HaMachiach, Jesus's, family tree can be famously taken back through paternal or maternal lineage back to King David and then from there to Abraham. So, Yeshua, through Adonai's brilliance takes care of it either way you look at it, paternal or maternal. Absolutely brilliant. He knew this would be an issue for many. What omnipotence!!
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