Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 12161 - 12180 of total 22795 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 28, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
A gift for jstan...

http://bit.ly/9POwGW
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jan 28, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
God's gift for all us sinners...
photo not found
Missing photo ID#286955
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 28, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
thanks, Jan

Your whole statement is made as a speculation and guess from your own experience and projected as truth to the whole.

That my friend is a fatal mistake ....... Werner Braun

Yes indeed, Sir Braun...and thus the intention of my overall statement, i.e. the speculation, not the projection...

And based on my conservative evaluation of your climbing accomplishments vs my own, I am thoroughly prepared to believe that you have a superior understanding of such things...

At best it is possible that some here have viewpoints that are slightly closer to truth

on the other hand, I am still alive, in contrast to the predictions of most people who know me well...



hmmm...and so are you...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 28, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Jan 28, 2013 - 12:17pm PT

A gift for jstan...

http://bit.ly/9POwGW



i still have one of those on my desk... and still use it sometimes...
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jan 28, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
Go-B, why is having a son then letting him get killed then having him come back to life then having him go to heaven a gift?

I mean, he was the son of God. A few minutes of mortal pain was about all he dealt with. He was sure that there was a heaven and got there. He would have been happy to avoid the human crap. If he wanted more, he was the son of God and probably could have managed to show up again at any time.

The teachings of Jesus might be considered a gift but all of the death/life/death crap is not a gift at all. He sacrificed nothing.

Now maybe if Jesus gave up being the son of God and gave up heaven to somehow help us poor mortals, that would be a sacrifice.

You really should question this stuff a bit more. If you have the same opinions after some very critical thinking on the subject then that is great.

Dave
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 28, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
You really should question this stuff a bit more. If you have the same opinions after some very critical thinking on the subject then that is great.

Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson went on a camping trip. After a good meal and a bottle of wine they lay down for the night, and went to sleep.

Some hours later, Holmes awoke and nudged his faithful friend awake. “Watson, look up at the sky and tell me what you see.”

Watson replied, “I see millions and millions of stars.”

“What does that tell you?” Holmes questioned.

Watson pondered for a minute. “Astronomically, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Astrologically, I observe that Saturn is in Leo. Horologically, I deduce that the time is approximately a quarter past three. Theologically, I can see that God is all powerful and that we are small and insignificant. Meteorologically, I suspect that we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What does it tell you?”

Holmes was silent for a minute, then spoke. “Watson, you idiot. Someone has stolen our tent.“
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jan 28, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Romans 3: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

...Jesus did for us what we could not do, make us right with God
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2013 - 08:58am PT
As evidence that the Bible can be interpeted anyway you want
and how common it is to think that God is on your side, no matter what your cause is, read below.

Conservative Author And Lawyer Claims He Gets His Gun Rights From The Bible
2013/01/28

By Rika Christensen
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/01/28/conservative-author-and-lawyer-claims-he-gets-his-gun-rights-from-the-bible/

An article published in The National Review asserts that any government-imposed limitation on gun ownership–such as banning assault weapons–denies both a natural right and a God-given right to self-defense. Author David French argues that God requires the “ultimate penalty” for unlawful killing (with an exemption for protecting one’s home), and for defense against invasion (citing the Book of Esther, in which the Jews come against invaders to protect themselves). French even invokes the writings of English philosopher John Locke–”widely known as the Father of Classical Liberalism”–as justification for unfettered gun ownership.

Aside from French’s insistence on making Biblical justifications for blocking attempts at regulating guns, and despite the fact that this nation is not a Christian nation, he basically says that self-defense is both a “natural” and “biblical” right, and includes the right for anyone to own any and every type of gun without any impediment to purchase.

What is a “natural right,” though? The basic definition is “any right that exists by virtue of natural law.” According to The Constitutional Rights Foundation, Thomas Jefferson used John Locke’s definition of “natural rights” as being “life, liberty, and property.” In dealing with “life,” Locke believed that people had the right to life and the right to preserve that life, which can easily be interpreted to include self-defense. When it comes to property, Locke was referring to goods that could be bought, sold, given away, taken away under certain circumstances, and ownership of self including a right to well being. Jefferson substituted Locke’s “property” with “pursuit of happiness” in the Declaration of Independence, which Locke and others believed was freedom of opportunity combined with a duty to help one’s fellow man. Liberty, however, was widely defined as an individual’s freedom to make their own choices and live their own lives as they saw fit, so long as they did not interfere with the liberty of others. Since Jefferson and other Framers based much of their own philosophies on that of John Locke and others of the Enlightenment period, “natural rights” as defined by American law and history are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

The Constitutional Rights Foundation, however, uses “natural rights” interchangeably with “God-given rights.” Natural law and divine law, according to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy’s page on Locke, are two different things. Natural law is that which is discovered through reason alone and applies to everyone; divine law is that which can only be discovered through sacred writings (the Christian Bible, for instance), and only applies to the people that a particular god (or gods) determines they apply to. Given that natural rights exist by virtue of natural law, there is a difference between “natural rights,” and “God-given rights,” though Locke did not see an issue with God playing a part as long as the relevant aspects being discussed could be found through reason alone, and not through Scripture.

Notably, French cites Scripture liberally in order to make his point.

Furthermore, as pointed out by ThinkProgress author Zack Beauchamp, David French grossly misinterprets some of Locke’s statements. Locke believed in a contract between people and its government, and–according to a reference in Beauchamp’s article–believes that in order to live in a political society, the people have to give up their natural right to punishment of criminal behavior to the government and allow said government to arbitrate and settle grievances. French clearly does not agree with Locke on this point, but quotes him anyway.

What French does not make clear in either the National Review article–or in his Patheos blog post about God and gun rights–is just what self-defense means and what is necessary to protect oneself and one’s family. He explains that lethal force is justified in self-defense, but never actually explains why the ownership of certain types of weapons is a necessary part of this right. If a burglar breaks into your house and threatens you and your family, the bullet from a single- or double-action pistol, or a bolt-action rifle, is just as lethal as the bullet from any number of assault weapons, provided you actually know exactly how to handle and fire them.

In other words, despite everything he says, he fails to make his case, biblical or otherwise, against an assault weapons ban or other types of common-sense regulation.

By bringing the Bible and “God’s will” into the gun control issue, French and others attempt to blur the line of separation between the church and the state, and to obfuscate the intent of the Founding Fathers who based their contributions to the Constitution on the writings of John Locke and others from the period of Enlightenment, and (unlike French) actually understood what Locke wrote.

rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jan 29, 2013 - 09:53am PT
Jesus did for us what we could not do, make us right with God.

Saying that he did it because the bible says he did it just begs the question.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:27am PT
Hot Henry scores...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 30, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
Thank-you lord for bringing Donald to us. Us sinners might never know the error of our ways without his guiding light based on your everlasting immutable laws.. and infitesimal and narrow way .. smaller than camels and needles and such.. he left out that quantum mechanics shite.. funny god has sense of humor.

There is no way but the true way.. and error hath no fury like gods vengeance

thank-you for providing Jesus who taught that no man may enter the kingdom of god. FULL STOP

-

OK f*#k that..

Jesus was way freaking cool... he said there were only two rules

Love god (good stuff I suppose)

Love Others as yourself

Works for me.. well when I'm having a good day but I do try.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
Buyers beware!

re: so-called "sophisticated" theology

Did you know there is quantum theology, and complex dynamical system theology, and incommensurabiity theology? Golly, how sophisticated!
 Daniel Dennett tweet

It's to be expected: Today's theologians are pulling every trick from their sleeves now in order to try to stay relevant.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
My point all along. There's a positive role for religion in society and religion will adapt. All things change and evolve, including religions.
What you perceive as extinct religions with different gods lives on but in another more evolved form.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
Only if you think astrology "lives on" in the form of astronomy.

If you had followed the "new atheists" conversations over the last several years regarding "sophisticated theology" - and its pathetic "weak sauce" attempts to make meaning of itself - you'd get Dennett's point. Maybe.

"Religions" are fundamentally about demons, absolute right and wrong under divine authority, eternal life for the individual ghost or spirit inhabiting the body, and last but not least some intervening higher power that on occasion at least interferes with the underlying natural laws. Under this meaning "religions" have no future among the growing educated.

To the extent "religions" are about "what matters" in our lives, there will be a different discipline to emerge to fulfill this need along with its own language. It's just a matter of time. One in short order, too. You can hold my feet to the fire on this, lol, and we'll see. Time will tell if HFCS forecasts rightly or wrongly. :)

Sure you can say religions won't ever go extinct. But language and statistics what they are, you can also say the same about astrology or witchcraft. There's always going to be some marginal demographic (fringe) that keeps it "alive" if only barely.

That's it in a nutshell. For the x1000. ;)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 31, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
It's to be expected: Today's theologians are pulling every trick from their sleeves now in order to try to stay relevant.
-


This assumes that all theologians are doing the same thing, that relevance is relative to their ties to quantifiable science, and that "today's theologians" are attempting to bridge the gap between Abrahamic superstition and hogwash to the real meat and potatoes of facts and figures, less they are irrelevant.

Does your actual life play out like this, where only the quantifiable is relevant to your feelings, relationships, to your core self, to your sense of wonder and excitement? Can you fathom something beyond what your rational mind tells you is "real?" Moreover, can you imagine truths that are not answerable to literal interpretations?

No? Perhaps read Song of Songs and tell us how such metaphorical words are irrelevant to your life.

You're preaching a very narrow doctrine, believing it is the one true path, as though our lives are beholden to he who possesses the best topo. And so long as you get the info on that topo written down correctly, we're mint.

Can I get a witness . . .

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 31, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
You caricature.

Google "Dennett deepity" for more.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg-4fmbpZ-M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3GNTrAMxfQ



We've missed you. :)

.....

"saying we have no free will is the most depressing thing i can possibly imagine"
Matt Blais
MH2

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
Can I get a witness . . .


Hallelujah!

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.


HFCS gravitates toward a fer-me-or-agin-me take on religion. I am sure I do something like that at times, too. Good to see JL here, again.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 31, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
Largo, Welcome Back!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 31, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
Well, if that's so, I'm in good company, and I don't mean George W.

If you're an innovator, even an innovationist, sometimes you gotta take sides to get your work done.

You're not an innovator, are you?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 31, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
Fructose-

Both science and Abrahamic religions are dead set against astrology and witchcraft. You could say they have both seen the light or you could say they both condemn that which they can not control and which provides alternative advice for living which bypasses them.

As for astrology leading into astronomy, I say yes. You stare at the stars long enough, you notice patterns and then more complex patterns. Both involve a lot of mathematics. The main difference as always, is one is purely descriptive while the other attempts to give meaning.



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