Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 12141 - 12160 of total 22765 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jan 27, 2013 - 10:13am PT
Genesis 1:24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”


Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.


...We are (created), therefore we think!
WBraun

climber
Jan 27, 2013 - 10:20am PT
Perhaps all we need do is to sh#t can our need to feel better?


Yes good idea.

We should all need to be miserable.

The leaders of our world now are doing this wonderful work of making everyone miserable with their wonderful wars, greed, genocide, and the large whole scale mistreatment of all living beings .......
MH2

climber
Jan 27, 2013 - 10:31am PT
Perhaps all we need do is to sh#t can our need to feel better?


Or try to place the main factors under your own control. Plant yams for a start. How about some trees?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 27, 2013 - 10:41am PT
Moosedrool, I hope you are here sometimes as you may find this interesting as pertaining to what we were last talking about on the Atheist thread. This is as good a place for it as any. Its a letter to ed regarding the need for a deity in order to provide meaning in our lives

Facts have no moral implication

Re: The Cold, Cramped, Atheistic World Of Sam Harris, Barbara Kay, April 2.

As I read Barbara Kay’s column I couldn’t help but be reminded of the comments of a woman who remarked, upon hearing of Darwin’s theory: “Let us hope it is not true, but that if it is, that it not become widely known.”

Ms. Kay does not refute Sam Harris’ claims concerning free will, because she does not contest the truth of his argument. She seems content only to argue that Mr. Harris must be incorrect because of the implications of his theory — or at least what Ms. Kay feels are the implications.
Hume demonstrated long ago that one cannot derive an “ought” from an “is” — in other words, facts about the world have no particular moral implications. Sam Harris’s world is not “cold” or “cramped” except in Ms. Kay’s perspective. The fact that my free will may be an illusion has no implications for human life except to free us from a religious narrative based on a mythological conception of existence. Humans continue to experience love, hate, fear and desire, regardless of the underpinning of those feelings.

Life remains meaningful, even if based only on biology, not mythology.


R.J. McKellar, Chilliwack, B.C.



werner - I have a question for you. Why do you always end your statements with................

It always seems like you are purposely leaving unsaid something integral to your communication.

What gives?
WBraun

climber
Jan 27, 2013 - 10:53am PT
........

Means there's never an end.

Infinity, eternity .........
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 27, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Ah. The mobius strip of life
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 27, 2013 - 11:29am PT
The fact that my free will may be an illusion has no implications for human life except to free us from a religious narrative based on a mythological conception of existence.


The same is true for our genetic mekeup. A lot of who you are is in your genes but you still have an illusion that it is YOU who makes all the decisions. Free will is an illusion to some degree.

If god exists, what are we supposed to do with it? It is irrelevant.

Unless of course god comes to me and says, "this world is mine and you have to play by my rules, or you are fuked!"

Many religions claim they know what god wants. Really? So why the fuk did he(?) make it so difficult to figure out what he wants? Which religion should follw, god?

Good post Bruce.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 27, 2013 - 11:50am PT
re: Sam Harris and "free" will

Bruce, it's "a letter to ed" or a letter to the editor...

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/07/31/barbara-kay-the-cold-cramped-atheistic-world-of-sam-harris/

Are you a relation to this person?

.....

My will is free. Free of demons (demonic possession). Free of ancient bronze age superstitions. That's enough.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 27, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
Are you a relation to this person?



Thankfully no. It would be misery having to share a thanksgiving dinner table with either her or that other authoritarian suck hole Jonathan Kay. The National Post by the way is our own version of the Wall Street Journal. I like to check it out to see what the enemy is up to.

For a real laugh check out Sun News Network. Its like a Fox News run out of the basement of a local white supremacy club house.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 27, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
Bruce, if you're interested in "free" will, you should start a thread similar to eeyonkee's re: evolution. Interesting topics on "free will". As it's been a life long interest of mine, I for one would certainly contribute once in awhile. A good start would be the article you referenced by Kay. It's a perfect example response, I think, from a (religiously) conservative "low-information" non-science type that illustrates what the science progressive "movement" is up against in trying to move forward.

Also enjoyed your edu link to Finland, btw, and the difficulties we'd have in trying to emulate their system. Keep up the worthy posts!

"I believe I am more likely to live a meaningful life if I take the existence [of free will or God] – in some vague, unspoken form, at least – on faith."
Jonathan Kay

The crux of the biscuit - right there.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 27, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
Would any dedicated athiest argue that these things are real

Love

Pain

Honor

Joy

Hope

Consciousness

The individual experience of this is the still without any scientific explanation worthy of the word science.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 28, 2013 - 12:27am PT
So one of the most interesting aspects of this thread is not that someone here has all the right understandings of reality, while everyone else strays from truth to some degree.

But rather there are such wide varieties of differing understandings among people who are all of the same species living on the same small planet and speaking a common language over a collection of a zillion types of computers all networked together so that this kind of conversation can occur. And this particular conversation provides only a glimmer of some of the many currently living belief systems.

And we don't have more than a few recent glimpses of how our immediate predecessors may have viewed the world, with the real history going back at least hundreds of thousands of years.

And the evidence bearing against the wisdom of our current levels of social and intellectual development run wide and deep.

So I think this all weighs towards a conclusion that we don't know much, and anyone stridently claiming otherwise is just speculating...

At best it is possible that some here have viewpoints that are slightly closer to truth, but certainly nothing to brag about.

We are like little pollywogs in a swamp, speculating on the relationship between fireflies and stars.

.
briar

Big Wall climber
San Rafael, CA
Jan 28, 2013 - 12:49am PT
Credit: briar

Well thats about all I think about the issue.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 28, 2013 - 12:51am PT
Thanks Tom!

I think that is the conclusion I've come to as well after reading thousands of posts on this and similar threads. Once this is acknowledged, then we are free to ask ourselves questions like what of the teeny tiny bit of information available to us, we would like to focus on - science, social science, art, history etc. and also what do we need to think or do in order to live a happy life and not cause any one else harm (a much harder question).

We might even progress to asking what we could do for others that would make them happier and not cause any harm. We might then proceed to ask if we are doing something in our lives that causes harm to ourselves or others, whether an addiction of some kind, a too rigid and judgmental view of the world, or through overt selfishness, thoughtless selfishness, or possibly unperceived selfishness, especially in relation to the human future and the future of other living things on our planet.

We might even ask ourselves if participating in a religion or certain religious rites might not make us happier even if we don't believe in all the traditional explanations.
MH2

climber
Jan 28, 2013 - 09:17am PT
computers all networked together so that this kind of conversation can occur


A pollywog in the Ukraine saw a firefly/star predation event and communicated it to marine scientists in Victoria, BC.


http://www.neptunecanada.ca/news/news-details.dot?id=37058
WBraun

climber
Jan 28, 2013 - 09:37am PT
So I think this all weighs towards a conclusion that we don't know much, and anyone stridently claiming otherwise is just speculating...

Your whole statement is made as a speculation and guess from your own experience and projected as truth to the whole.

That my friend is a fatal mistake .......
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 28, 2013 - 10:03am PT
What is with this jihad against speculation in the first place?

spec·u·la·tion (spky-lshn)
n.

1.
a. Contemplation or consideration of a subject; meditation.
b. A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture.
c. Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition.

2.
a. Engagement in risky business transactions on the chance of quick or considerable profit.
b. A commercial or financial transaction involving speculation.


Do you not engage in "Contemplation or consideration of a subject; meditation" ?

Is it a process inferior to any other simply by definition? Speculation is like intuition. A very useful tool of judgement, but fraught with peril if not ultimately confirmed with evidence.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2013 - 10:10am PT
Perhaps all we need do is to sh#t can our need to feel better?


Or try to place the main factors under your own control. Plant yams for a start. How about some trees?

Or grow cactus
My hybrid from seed, it's one of a kind
Credit: Dr. F.
MH2

climber
Jan 28, 2013 - 11:07am PT
Good one Dr. F. Cacti make me feel better.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2013 - 11:18am PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Messages 12141 - 12160 of total 22765 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews