Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 12141 - 12160 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 28, 2013 - 01:50am PT
i have also felt quite deprived lacking a prehensile tail, which proves so useful to orangutangs


is Bill Gates also working to provide me one of those?






(and incidentally i'm not about to give up my wingsuit and Javelin Odyssey rig...)
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 28, 2013 - 01:54am PT
You know John that all sounds really nice and comforting, to the point that it actually indicates moral purpose. I'm not kidding - I really like the sound of it. It provides a sense of justice.

Just one problem. Prove it.

However there is a form of moral justice that we can prove. Just one problem with that too. It requires that we here on earth take responsibility for it, rather than subscribe some hocus pocus voodoo that lets us off the hook with an assumption that "The Gods " will take care of it for us.

What difference is there between karma and angels?
John M

climber
Feb 28, 2013 - 02:01am PT
However there is a form of moral justice that we can prove. Just one problem with that too. It requires that we here on earth take responsibility for it, rather than subscribe some hocus pocus voodoo that lets us off the hook with an assumption that "The Gods " will take care of it for us

We are responsible for our own Karma. So no.. I don't believe that "The Gods" are going to magically make it go away. Many religions have attempted to do away with much of the teachings of karma, but that doesn't make them go away. It just means people end up blind and as the bible says.. in the ditch wondering why this or that happened to them, even though they are seemingly a "good" person.

Reincarnation and karma. The two go together.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 28, 2013 - 02:08am PT
I hope you are right. But in the end thats all you and I got - is to hope that that story is true.

Then we can rest assured that Cheney will get his just reward, and Kissinger, and Ratzinger, and a host of others we are too chicken sh#t to deal with and are assured that they will all answer to St Peter or Karma or something.

Assops Fables are all fine stories too.
John M

climber
Feb 28, 2013 - 02:15am PT
There is a lot of Truth in Aesop's fables. I don't subscribe to the notion that Truth is found in only this or that religion. Truth is Truth and it springs up in all kinds of places.

Even science. LOL..
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 28, 2013 - 02:29am PT
The purpose of this thread is to prove that reincarnation and karma and spirit are mere fantasies of overactive deluded minds, as has now been thoroughly stated in thousands of posts.



However those whose minds are not so 'deluded' seem to have no trouble believing in the purely abstract mathematical models of the Platonic world of mathematical forms, which is a complete fiction and has no existence in the real world outside of our unrestrained imaginations.

These models must be precisely specified and tested against many instances and also maintain internal consistency. And these imagined rigorous mathematical models provide the framework upon which modern science has built our authoritative understanding of reality.



Within this rigorous mathematical and scientific model of reality there is absolutely no room for unique non-repeatable unusual phenomena. Anyone who observes such phenomena or even credits the possibility of their existence is considered to be delusional. This proforma designation of 'delusional' effectively squashes many or hopefully most reports of such observations of unusual phenomena. And since any or all such unusual phenomena are considered delusional, there is no reason for the scientific method to attempt to account for them other than to reject their existence in reality due to their lack of 'proof' and repeatability in the presence of designated authority figures.

Any observed phenomena that do not fit into such tightly specified and authoritatively accepted frameworks are conveniently deemed to NOT EXIST!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 28, 2013 - 02:34am PT
Every day I do things that are unrepeatable and unprovable. The very fact that I am experiencing them is fully unexplained by science.

The vast majority of facts are not recorded or proven.

Science is much more elegant and useful. But very limited.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 28, 2013 - 03:00am PT
So Tom, you're applying for grants to study interdimensional Sasquatch? How about Nessie? Do you think there is enough available nutrients in that lake to support a minimal viable population of a creature that size over generations? How about ghosts? How about Nesphilium and reptilian bases on Earth, the Moon and Mars? I am acutely curious exactly where you personally drop the line. Or is it wide-open and absolutely everything is equally plausible? Or, you're a pilot, know at least a bit about aircraft design and history, and have a passing acquaintance with aerospace materials science and propulsion systems - so how about those high-performance Nazi flying saucers you posted up about? How likely was/is that? You don't seem to be flying one.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 28, 2013 - 03:13am PT
i have not personally seen any of those things, but that doesn't mean that my firm grasp on reality depends upon ridiculing anyone who considers they have


i have had a good friend travel across the country from D.C. just to show me UFOs (when i made a business trip to Los Alamos)...for which observations i was able to provide entirely conventional explanations

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 28, 2013 - 03:16am PT
I didn't say UFOs. I referenced your video a page back on Nazi flying disks and their purported performance. Hell, you're a pilot and understand 1940s technology well enough, are you buying what you posted up or were you just trolling?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 28, 2013 - 03:44am PT
yeah, i learned to fly in a 1946 Luscombe that i restored in my back yard...

i am just curious about it...and why the Russians would go to such trouble to put a show like that on their public television (the Australians did a similar show)...i.e. how much represents actual accomplishments vs. wishful thinking/planning at the time vs. recent entertainment-story fabrications/disinformation

the German engineers were clearly making major technological advancements with their nuclear weapons program (which inspired the US 'Manhattan Program' effort, while we bombed their program to oblivion), the first ICBM V2 rockets (mass-produced in caverns), the first jet fighter: ME 262...and they did at least fly conventionally-powered disk-shaped vehicles (as has the USA)...all well ahead of their time...

and modern stealth aircraft do make advantage of electrostatic aerodynamic effects...(and of course we publish public announcements for all our advanced aviation designs...;-)

http://www.onera.fr/eucass/2005/Proceedings/2.02.06.pdf

do you have anything to contribute?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 28, 2013 - 05:18am PT
I suppose directed plasma discharge might eventually play a significant role in managing transitional flows in / on scramjets, but in the early '40's?

And do we / you really care why the Russians or the history channel make these kinds of shows? I mean, you now know what both the Germans and we were capable of at that time from science and engineering perspectives, what's the call? High performance Nazi flying disks kilometers in the air moving at 2000 fps and traveling great distances? Do you really need the Russians or anyone else to call that when you know what you know about the field and the history?

Sort of like Nessie, do you really need to wonder why someone made a show, did the searches, or see or not see one yourself if you have a rough idea of the available nutrients in the lake and understand the concept of MVP? Seems like if you had an even vague idea of the supplies necessary for a trip to the Moon or Mars then the lake deal would be simple.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 28, 2013 - 08:16am PT
Every day I do things that are unrepeatable and unprovable. The very fact that I am experiencing them is fully unexplained by science.

The vast majority of facts are not recorded or proven.

Science is much more elegant and useful. But very limited.

It is possible that science is so far very limited because our abilities and understanding have limited its application.

On the other hand, the other "system of explanation" fails to validate with anything other than parables, fables and what may well be proven to be wishful thinking, which we are known to engage in as has been scientifically proven.

Also, in reply to what Tom seems to be suggesting, It is not disrespectful to point out this incongruity. In fact, wouldn't it be insulting to our collective intelligence to ignore it for the sake of "getting along"?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 28, 2013 - 09:29am PT
The purpose of this thread is to prove that reincarnation and karma and spirit are mere fantasies of overactive deluded minds, as has now been thoroughly stated in thousands of posts.

This is a poor description. While some parts of nature butt heads with religion, this thread is a great outlet to discuss religion.

Where it gets good is when somebody claims that they are absolutely correct.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 28, 2013 - 09:59am PT
It is possible that science is so far very limited because our abilities and understanding have limited its application.

That was not really the point I was trying to illustrate. The limitations are more in our ability to measure, record and reproduce results. It isn't science without those abilities. For example consciousness is a fundamentally unique experience. One might reasonably assume others have a similar experience but it is not recordable in a way even closely resembling the experience. At least not so far.

Matrix anyone? Where is the "recall" office? How about an "Avatar"
WBraun

climber
Feb 28, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
Where it gets good is when somebody claims that they are absolutely correct.

When coming to a stop sign one must stop.

I'm absolutely correct .......:-)
MH2

climber
Feb 28, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
For example consciousness is a fundamentally unique experience. One might reasonably assume others have a similar experience but it is not recordable in a way even closely resembling the experience. At least not so far.


Let's suppose you could record "consciousness" in a way exactly resembling the experience. What could you then learn from that? If you could play it back would it be like The Matrix? Would it be an entertaining way to relive parts of your life?

Perhaps a complete reproduction of "consciousness" would resolve ancient philosophical questions?

What science allows is the answering of well-posed questions, most often of a yes-or-no type. See Ed's post a way back about the process. You need to get a good understanding of what is already known. Then your brain will see patterns, your imagination can push the pieces of the puzzle around to see what fits with what, and with a lot of hard work plus a stroke of insight you may find a way to put the pieces into a new pattern that makes sense and that explains in a new way a part of the physical world in a way which can be tested. Science abstracts essential parts of phenomena and looks for rules that underly their behavior. Science isn't about reproducing exactly the details of how you felt about your drive to work in the morning. That is for your diary. An exact record would not be a triumph of science but it could be an aid to writing your novel.

When you add, "At least not so far," do you think such a thing is possible? If so, then what you would have would amount to a prosthetic brain. Would you then put your own brain out to pasture?

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 28, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
When coming to a stop sign one must stop.

I'm absolutely correct .......:-)

Not when they plow a big pile of snow across the intersection.

Man I've seen so many n00b drivers make this mistake.

Its about the only time I get pissed at people for stopping at a stop sign.
WBraun

climber
Feb 28, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
Are people unconscious here?

They must be according to what they are saying here?

Fact: Consciousness is the direct symptom of "Life".

Is everyone dead here?

Must be .......

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 28, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
What science allows is the answering of well-posed questions, most often of a yes-or-no type. See Ed's post a way back about the process. You need to get a good understanding of what is already known. Then your brain will see patterns, your imagination can push the pieces of the puzzle around to see what fits with what, and with a lot of hard work plus a stroke of insight you may find a way to put the pieces into a new pattern that makes sense and that explains in a new way a part of the physical world in a way which can be tested. Science abstracts essential parts of phenomena and looks for rules that underly their behavior.

Absolutely agree with this. It's basic and fundamental scientific process. And As new tools and technologies are applied the types of things we can measure increase. Thus the types of inquiry that can be pursued multiply. Answers to question come about and knowledge is gained.

I never in anyway meant to imply that science is not valuable, powerful, useful or many other good things. Merely that it does have significant and unfortunate limits in application towards some very big questions.
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