Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
It seems to me that "Scientific" Determinism is, if I have it right, incorrect. You cannot reverse non linear equations, chaotic systems, or quantum effects.

If all possibilities are in fact realized at once and all moments of time - past, present, and future - exist simultaneously, then what does 'determinism' really mean? That you chose to be this you (for this moment)? And if such is the case does reversibility mean anything? And is anything really chaotic (or is it simply a matter of a limited perspective)?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
Yeah, it is like the butterfly effect if I'm learning correctly. I'm wasting time on wiki at the moment.

It really does have all sorts of implications. Perhaps someone well versed in this should take over.

From what I already know, I would say that there is no physical determinism unless you believe in a theistic form. God already knows everything that has occurred and will occur. He gives us free will, or the illusion of it, so that he can what?

Decide who goes to hell?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
He gives us free will, or the illusion of it, so that he can what?

Pretty much gets to the heart of religion.

No different than the vedic gerbil-wheel view of infinite purgatories until you gain nirvana (who decides?) Religion pretty much boils down to pain of endless varieties, infinite purgatories, and some non-deterministic achievement of some pain-free end state.

Who is being entertained by such claptrap stupidity? You have to concoct some pretty elaborate fairy tales to explain why spirits would ever fall so low as to suffer a corporeal existence or for any corporeal reality to exist at all as anything but 'spiritual' road prison one is condemned to for reasons unknown. I mean, just who do you have to piss off to end up in this shithole?

It's all pointlessly ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
Jstan wrote:

If there were a god, that entity’s input would be among the available data external to the organism. This last sentence defines the historic question precisely.

__

Precisely - for a materialist.

Few engaged in any kind of ongoing spiritual practice would posit god as an entity. This is trying to make over that realm in a way that the rational mind can grock onto and get to calculating the data. Basically trying to calculate your way to heaven, so to speak.

As I said earlier, You can't lop off the non-linear right brain here and get any results. Freyman can keep on saying to leave off everything and start calculating but has this ever bore any spiritual fruit? Of course not. It's no fault of spirituality, but the fact that the gardner is working on the wrong tree.

JL
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Few engaged in any kind of ongoing spiritual practice would posit god as an entity.

What? In my church going days I was certainly taught that God was someone. Since we were created in his image, he must be human, or close.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
Basically trying to calculate your way to heaven, so to speak.

Well, it still keeps coming back to the question of why would any 'spirit' choose to bother with a corporeal existence in the first place. Why come to this shithole where you break ankles and have to spend half your time just trying to divine what the f*#k your doing here to begin with? What would possibly be (quite literally) the point?
Getch

Mountain climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
Any evidence for free will that doesn't require faith in god?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Jan,

you might like what Douglas Murray says here...



He starts at 1:22.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XpEjVlPFrs&feature=youtu.be

Douglas Murray - Associate Director of the Henry Jackson Society and founder of the Centre for Social Cohesion, Murray is also a commentator on issues of religion, immigration and extremism.

He sticks it to the "proposition" which includes Dawkins.


P.S. I love the British Way. The nuances, eg. Always something new, too. In this piece: What in the heck is... The Only Way is Essex. :)

.....

A physicist speaks, at 1:04:30...
"We don't have truth anymore."


Is this true? (Remind you of anyone here? lol.)

Is this what they're teaching in deep physics nowadays?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
Precisely - for a materialist.

Few engaged in any kind of ongoing spiritual practice would posit god as an entity.


well is god a force - or not? I bet if you polled the average congregation, 85% would say he's a guy thing with a beard and wearing a robe. Another whatever percent would say maybe he's black or - gasp! - a woman, possibly a dog.

Maybe half a percent abstractly envision some sort of "energy". Either way God is uniformly accapted as an entity or thing that asserts a force within our "world".

So you say we are all materialists then?


HFCS - thanks for the video. It entrenchs my dogma.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
I'm not saying "spiritual practice" meaning old time Abrahamic, doctrine driven religion. The difference between religion and spirituality is so vast that it is safe to say the gulf separating them is as large as the one between science and religion. Perhaps even greater.

Spirituality is in essence the application of a supervised, esoteric technique or practice, be it yoga or meditation or fill in the blank. None of the viable paths are beholden to doctrine or beliefs or faith or goblins and dancing angels. Last night at the center the leader said, "The starting point is that there is no hope. We're all gonna die. Now what?"

That's the stepping off point for many spiritual practices. They are not parachutes to avoid mortality, but practices to go with during our numbered days.

JL
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
cool - I think. But then for the purpose of this thread, politics / religion (same thing) must take into account the popularly held belief as the power to be reckoned with. The minority view is of little consequence, politically speaking.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
I don't believe Murray "sticks it" in any way at all, but simply casts as a negative the fact atheism and secularism can't fill in the voids of the unknown and unknowable. He's right that atheism doesn't have an answer or solution to death, or to suffering, or to tragedy; but that's hardly a failing of atheism - it's simply the state of the world we live in, there are no such answers.

So if that's Murray's basis for atheism failing or what its missing, then parents fail when they can't replace Santa Claus with something else once kids figure it all out - I mean, c'mon. Murray is saying religion provides a necessary service by answering unanswerable questions with fairy tales and that atheism fails because it can't or won't do that.

It boils back down to humans, as a species, simply can't deal with the fear associated with lingering, unanswered questions - answers HAVE to be provided and a fairy tale will do in the absence of a real answer.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
If you're familiar with the set up or format of the debate... I said he sticks it to the Proposition... the Proposition being the claim: "Religion Has No Place in the 21st Century."

Murray is saying religion provides a necessary service...

There you go.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:28pm PT
They are not parachutes to avoid mortality, but practices to go with during our numbered days.

I have to admit not really understanding why would anyone want to avoid mortality - aging I get, but mortality - no way. Last thing I want to do is linger on and on or keep coming back. Pretty much falls under the twin headings of "don't worry, be happy" and "it's easy to be easy when you're easy". Why make it any more complicated?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
There you go...

Unfortunately, it's that very service of answering unanswerable questions with authoritatively delusional fairy tales which keeps people captive and easily manipulated.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
I have to admit not really understanding why would anyone want to avoid mortality - aging I get, but mortality - no way. Last thing I want to do is linger on and on or keep coming back. Pretty much falls under the twin headings of "don't worry, be happy" and "it's easy to be easy when you're easy". Why make it any more complicated?



HJ,

We all live forever. All of us.

The question is whether you want to exist through eternity like the Rich man looking from Sheoul (Hades) suffering in judgement looking toward Heaven with parched mouth, dry, and hot, and there seeing Lazareth sitting in comfort and Shalom.

What do you want? Where do you want to go? Where do you want to be?


G-d says we live, we die, and then the judgement.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
The difference between religion and spirituality is so vast that it is safe to say the gulf separating them is as large as the one between science and religion. Perhaps even greater

Well said. In my experiences of separating out the "I-consciousness" from the material body thirty years ago (or the illusion of doing so), the origins of religion became crystal clear, although the dogma and practice is, in my opinion, contrived. Between the quantum and neurological (the physical origins) to the mystical or spiritual (the experience) one cannot draw a definitive line.

As to free will, I tend to think along the lines of a block universe where time and space are infinitesimal slices of something that "exists" and where there might be both free will and its absence - the Law of the Excluded Middle may not be in effect.
WBraun

climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
healyje - "answers HAVE to be provided and a fairy tale will do in the absence of a real answer."

This means you have no good brain.

This means you make up fairy tales in your head and project those ideas onto the world.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
Atheism provides no answers at all which is quite the contrast to your operatic Vedas. Stop yourself.
WBraun

climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
You just made another fairy tale in your head and project it onto the world.

That's all you know how to do here.
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