Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 10, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
Evidence Suggests Flood, Noah's Ark Existed, Says Robert Ballard, Archaeologist Who Found Titanic

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/evidence-noahs-flood-ark-real-robert-ballard-archeologist-titanic_n_2273143.html?1355183096&icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl5%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D243741

Holy Smokes!
TFSTFU

Trad climber
Utah
Dec 10, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
What did Noah feed all dem animals and how did he convince the lion not to eat the deer? Use some common sense go b
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 10, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Isaiah 11:6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.
TFSTFU

Trad climber
Utah
Dec 10, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
Slayer 1:17 "I've seen the ways of god, I'll take the devil any day. Hail Satan. "

Slayer 6:66 "Welcome to the horror of the revelation Tell me what you think of your savior now I reject all the biblical views of the truth Dismiss it as the folklore of the times I won't be force fed prophecies From a book of untruths for the weakest mind I keep the bible in a pool of blood So that none of its lies can affect me"

Slayer 9:1 Oppression is the Holy Law In God I distrust In time His monuments will fall Like ashes to dust Is war and creed the master plan? The Bible's where it all began Its propaganda sells despair And spreads the virus everywhere

[Refrain:] Religion is hate Religion is fear Religion is war Religion is rape Religion's obscene Religion's a whore

The pestilence of Jesus Christ There never was a sacrifice No man upon the crucifix Beware the cult of purity Infectious imbecility I've made my choice 666!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 10, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
the scientific method is a useful tool for studying certain aspects of reality, but is severely limited and often myopic...like a high powered telescope with a narrow field of vision that lets you learn something about the surface features of the moon; but can hardly compare to the experiences of a person actually going there and walking around and looking around

some adherents to the scientific method seem to use the limitations of science to justify and reinforce great personal myopia regarding their awareness of reality, thus allowing themselves to dwell within their very limited comfort zone, and similarly control others

i think some of the greatest scientists are very humble and do not exhibit such myopic delusions of grandeur in their level of understanding

I generally agree with your drift, particularly with your last statement, but so would any person of science. It is the essence of science - the endless search for a better understanding! It is inherent within the process that even the process itself may yet be proven wrong. Certain proponents may be ideologically compelled to declare perfection, but you can't blame the system for that moral failing.

Your first analogy I think is misleading however in identifying weakness in scientific process. The "Experience" of walking on the moon as opposed to merely "Observing" the surface of the moon are really the same. One is simply more tactile than the other. One method of observation may stimulate more spiritual feelings or emotional feelings or a sense of intimacy or immediacy and the other disproportionately more intellectual curiosity perhaps. Those emotive experiences may also be mixed in with highly material observations like "texture" or " granular flow characteristics" that are experienced and felt more than measured and documented.

The stimulus provokes.... something. That something requires a justification if you are interested in the LEGITIMACY of the meaning and power of the something. An acid trip can provoke either delusional nonsense or great revealing of truth... but you'll never know the difference without the proof provided by jumping out the window, which is science.

Look at it this way - I was attempting today to describe the processes involved in a "confidence scheme" to my son. It involved a real event where I strongly suspect a neighbor / acquaintance convinced me of the viability of an investment, which over time went sour.

It involved (as they all do) gaining enough confidence or faith in a mark to enact a sale of a fraudulent product. The sale hinged on faith. The defining Go / no Go decision was not based on factual evidence and reason.

I have a strong sense that he took me for a ride, as opposed to the investment failed due to external inherent risk factors. I don't have conclusive evidence to either his miss represented character / intent or the technical miss representation of the investment vehicle, but the circumstantial and sugestive evidence is strongly leading.

But thats it. My son asks me how sure I am to which I said 75% on gut instinct which won't amount to a pinch of sh#t in a court of law... and good thing too.

That dosn't mean our system of jurisprudence is perfect or incapable of error, corruption or any other subversion of purpose. However it has proven - PROVEN - to be the best capable tool and system we have for the application of justice through seeking the truth. Comparatively, a system of justice that serves emotional needs of retribution before truth and moral principle is PROVEN to be lacking in justice. It would feel awesome to pound the sh#t out of the guy..... I think.

It boils down to the truth. And as my son was suggesting I didn't know the truth. If I was to "decide" as I really wanted to, I needed what I didn't have - the numbers and documents and facts that provides conclusive evidence and a rational theory which withstands critical analysis. Without that all I have is faith.

So is there another way other than the scientific process to explain what so far seems lacking in explanation? Maybe, but faith aint it. Faith explains nothing by its mere definition. Faith is justified only when proven justified. Faith may be a critical factor in behavioral motivation which has resulted in this or that, but the beliefs behind the motivation and behavior remain untested, unchallenged and unknowable.

So sure religion has a track record of getting us this far. The question is, is it the truth it claims or is it just another ponzi scheme with a inherently limited life span due to its inherent inability to sustain belief? Well at one time we were pretty sure the world was flat, and that belief had been perfectly useful up to the point we realized it was stupid.

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 10, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
the scientific method is a useful tool for studying certain aspects of reality, but is severely limited and often myopic


Tom, I guess that was a long winded way of saying "Compared to what?"
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 10, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
Bruce Very Well Said!

"Faith is justified only when proven justified."

The Bible says God instilled every man with a measure of faith. And that faith comes from hearing the word of Jesus. He also said faith without
works is dead.

You can understand if your faith lies in the strength of a line being jugged. Your faith will be justified with each succesful accent.

This would be faith with works!

Being filled with the HolySpirit, when i ask Jesus to help me in somesorta
need. When my prayer is answered with a specific answer only He and i can
understand. My Faith IS justified.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 10, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
tsstfu
" The pestilence of Jesus Christ There never was a sacrifice No man upon the crucifix Beware the cult of purity Infectious imbecility I've made my choice 666"
_

its almost a quote from Iron Maiden. i used to listen to Slayer in my skateboard'in days.Then later with Danno.RIP.

i think it funny.Slayer proclaims there was no sacrificial Jesus. Yet
they choose to beleive in 666. the mark of the Anti-Christ

So their choosing to be negative toward something they dont beleive in?

In the words of WB "THATS STUPID!"
TFSTFU

Trad climber
Utah
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:10am PT
The reverand Kerry king wrote those lyrics, and he's an atheist meaning he doesn't believe in god and also means he doesn't believe in Satan. 666 to him is anti-religion.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 11, 2012 - 08:18am PT
Being filled with the HolySpirit, when i ask Jesus to help me in somesorta
need. When my prayer is answered with a specific answer only He and i can
understand. My Faith IS justified.

So it actually is testable and repeatable. I bet its peer reveiwed too. But is it junk science?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
When my prayer is answered with a specific answer only He and i can
understand. My Faith IS justified.

But not one person ever had their prayer answered to save them from poverty, to cure them from disease, to win the lottery, or at Vegas (that can be statistically verified)

Scientifically speaking, no prayers were answered, not ever

instead, every person was able to justify his faith with an apology of why their prayers were not answered, it was God's will.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
Bruce:

I'm surprised Jan has not chimed in here. Walking on the moon or especially among different cultures provides opportunities for thick descriptions, which are a bona fide means of scientific (interpretive) investigation. It's far more than tactile sensations. It is an experience of your own concepts failing to explain all that you see in detail; or put another way, the experiences of walking and living among others provides means by which to see yourself. (See Clifford Geertz's works.)

The other thing I will add to your discussion is this question: "What is the difference between faith and belief?" (Be careful here, Bruce; I've laid a trap.)


Dr. F.

Dude, sometimes you cause yourself more problems than you solve. You said:

But not one person ever had their prayer answered to save them from poverty, to cure them from disease, to win the lottery, or at Vegas (that can be statistically verified)

The problem with this statement is that you have no basis for the claim either way. To show that no person has ever had their prayers answered means that you'd have to have a baseline to compare it to. And what would that be? The research-design problems inherent in such a bold claim is beyond measurement, much less astute design skills.

I suspect you don't care one way or the other, and that's ok with me. Really. We're all just shooting our mouths off here on ST, anyway, no matter what the thread.

In the end, Dr. F., you have no real way of knowing anything for sure. What you have are beliefs, maybe even strong beliefs, but beliefs nonetheless. As I've been saying for a while here, take your beliefs away and what would you have for yourself? You'd have just about nothing.

You decry what religious folks are claiming, but your own claims are outlandish most of the time for a person who apparently wants science to be right and all that matters. Look closely: there is hardly a good scientist who is all that drop-dead sure about anything. You could take away something important from that.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
I have a friend... but you can't see him.

He does things for me... but I you wouldn't understand.

He will be your friend too... you just have to believe.

I have a bridge for sale...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
Be careful here, Bruce; I've laid a trap.)

uh oh. If I navigate successfully do I get to cross into the land of 78 virgins or is that a different program completely?

ok being a gambling man I take a kick at it.

Belief requires faith but faith does not need belief?
MH2

climber
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
you have no real way of knowing anything for sure


The efficacy of prayer has been the topic of various studies since Francis Galton first addressed it in 1872. Double-blind studies have failed to find any effect.


I don't claim that is "knowing for sure" but it is probably the best we can do on the question at present.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
...you have no real way of knowing anything for sure.

My point exactly, science offers us a way of "knowing" things in as objective a shared context as possible. Everything else - pure mental speculation which is difficult to separate from the general [subjective] fiction we all live.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
i am reminded of the bumper sticker that says, "Quick! Hire a teenager, while they still know everything!"

just for starters:

what is time?

what is space?

what is energy?

what is mass?

what is the basic nature of the connective relationship between time and space and energy and mass?

what is gravity?

how does gravity warp time and space?

how does the energy of velocity of an object warp time and mass?

what are the basic relationships between gravity A, B, and C?

how does gravity C concentrate energy in sufficient density to form matter?

what is the minimum concentration of energy that we can agree to be materialized rather than just an energy concentration?

how do you manufacture the many elements above 112 on the periodic table?

if elements 114 and 115 are theoretically stable, why are they not found in detectable quantities on our planet?

how does a flock of hundreds of birds turn all together in an instant, when a very high-speed camera capable of freeze-framing the motion of a bullet cannot identify any one bird initiating the turn? They all initiate the turn at the exact same instant so far as scientists are able to detect. There seems to be some unobservable factor that links them all intimately together

what might be that factor?

yeah, i don't know much

your experience may differ
WBraun

climber
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
Everything else - pure mental speculation


That means YOU are the mental speculator period.

You have no clue what you're talking about.

You're just plain guessing about everything and about what others know.

It means ultimately you know nothing period and all your posts are nothing but straw man attempts at stuff you know nothing about.

Stupid way to do anything ....
MH2

climber
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
how does a flock of hundreds of birds turn all together in an instant, when a very high-speed camera capable of freeze-framing the motion of a bullet cannot identify any one bird initiating the turn? They all initiate the turn at the exact same instant so far as scientists are able to detect. There seems to be some unobservable factor that links them all intimately together

Which scientists? What journal?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 11, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
^ Feder, Toni (October 2007). "Statistical physics is for the birds". Physics today 60 (10): 28–30. doi:10.1063/1.2800090.
^ Hildenbrandt H, Carere C and Hemelrijk CK (2010) "Self-organized aerial displays of thousands of starlings: a model" Behavioral Ecology, 21 (6): 1349–1359. doi:10.1093/beheco/arq149
^ Hemelrijk CK and Hildenbrandt H (2011) "Some causes of the variable shape of flocks of birds" PloS one, 6 (8): e22479. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0022479
^ Project Starflag
^ Swarm behaviour model by University of Groningen
^ Spector, L.; Klein, J.; Perry, C.; and Feinstein, M. (2003). "Emergence of Collective Behavior in Evolving Populations of Flying Agents". Proceedings of the Genetic and Evolutionary Computation Conference (GECCO-2003). Springer-Verlag. Retrieved 2007-05-01.
^ "http://psychcentral.com/news/2008/02/15/herd-mentality-explained/1922.html". Retrieved on October 31st 2008.
^ Gabbai, J. M. E. (2005). Complexity and the Aerospace Industry: Understanding Emergence by Relating Structure to Performance using Multi-Agent Systems. Manchester: University of Manchester Doctoral Thesis.
^ Ibanez J, Gomez-Skarmeta A F, Blat J (2003). "DJ-boids: emergent collective behavior as multichannel radio station programming". Proceedings of the 8th international conference on Intelligent User Interfaces. pp. 248-250. doi:10.1145/604045.604089.
^ Moere A V (2004). "Time-Varying Data Visualization Using Information Flocking Boids". Proceedings of the IEEE Symposium on Information Visualization. pp. 97-104. doi:10.1109/INFVIS.2004.65.
^ Cui Z, Shi Z (2009). "Boid particle swarm optimisation". International Journal of Innovative Computing and Applications 2 (2): 77–85. doi:10.1504/IJICA.2009.031778.

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