Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 7, 2012 - 08:51am PT
Belief is not proof and means nothing.

A belief in itself.

Can you believe in a lie, fairytale or myth?

Can you believe in any belief?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 7, 2012 - 09:32am PT
MH2:

Here's a pointer to a problem with the paper you cited:

. . . what it might be like to be conscious after death . . . [p.3]

Strictly speaking, there is no consciousness after death.

The consciousness that you (and the author) know comes through a body-mind. Once a body dies, the consciousness "you" know no longer exists. There's no "you" left.

Perhaps the writer is assuming a notion of what some have called pristine awareness or the ground of consciousness ("awareness"), but that has no personality, self-ness, individuality associated with it. We all have awareness, but that is not the consciousness that we know right now. (When you've lost consciousness and wake up, you don't think you died.)

It's easy to understand Claudio's speech (and others cited in the paper) IF one assumes that somehow the conscious personality continues beyond death. Read the talks of those who have achieved liberation. They appear to be impersonal no-selfs. (This is what I was trying to get at in my post about selflessness.)

The dread and worry about death is the ego's fear. Get rid of the ego, and none of those concerns show up. How could they?
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2012 - 09:39am PT
Get rid of the ego

Can't be done, it's never ever been done, and it's completely impossible to do.

Ego is the individuality and identity of the living entity.

There is is no two snowflakes ever with the exact same pattern just as no two different people have the exact same fingerprints.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 7, 2012 - 10:04am PT

from wiki Id, Ego, Super Ego

Ego

The ego acts according to the reality principle; i.e. it seeks to please the id’s drive in realistic ways that will benefit in the long term rather than bring grief.[14] At the same time, Freud concedes that as the ego "attempts to mediate between id and reality, it is often obliged to cloak the Ucs. [Unconscious] commands of the id with its own Pcs. [Preconscious] rationalizations, to conceal the id's conflicts with reality, to profess ... to be taking notice of reality even when the id has remained rigid and unyielding."[15]
The ego comprises the organized part of the personality structure that includes defensive, perceptual, intellectual-cognitive, and executive functions. Conscious awareness resides in the ego, although not all of the operations of the ego are conscious. Originally, Freud used the word ego to mean a sense of self, but later revised it to mean a set of psychic functions such as judgment, tolerance, reality testing, control, planning, defense, synthesis of information, intellectual functioning, and memory.[1] The ego separates out what is real. It helps us to organize our thoughts and make sense of them and the world around us.[1]"The ego is that part of the id which has been modified by the direct influence of the external world.... The ego represents what may be called reason and common sense, in contrast to the id, which contains the passions ... in its relation to the id it is like a man on horseback, who has to hold in check the superior strength of the horse; with this difference, that the rider tries to do so with his own strength, while the ego uses borrowed forces."[16] Still worse, "it serves three severe masters ... the external world, the super-ego and the id."[15] Its task is to find a balance between primitive drives and reality while satisfying the id and super-ego. Its main concern is with the individual's safety and allows some of the id's desires to be expressed, but only when consequences of these actions are marginal. "Thus the ego, driven by the id, confined by the super-ego, repulsed by reality, struggles ... [in] bringing about harmony among the forces and influences working in and upon it," and readily "breaks out in anxiety — realistic anxiety regarding the external world, moral anxiety regarding the super-ego, and neurotic anxiety regarding the strength of the passions in the id."[17] It has to do its best to suit all three, thus is constantly feeling hemmed by the danger of causing discontent on two other sides. It is said, however, that the ego seems to be more loyal to the id, preferring to gloss over the finer details of reality to minimize conflicts while pretending to have a regard for reality. But the super-ego is constantly watching every one of the ego's moves and punishes it with feelings of guilt, anxiety, and inferiority.
To overcome this the ego employs defense mechanisms. The defense mechanisms are not done so directly or consciously. They lessen the tension by covering up our impulses that are threatening.[18] Ego defense mechanisms are often used by the ego when id behavior conflicts with reality and either society's morals, norms, and taboos or the individual's expectations as a result of the internalization of these morals, norms, and their taboos.
Denial, displacement, intellectualisation, fantasy, compensation, projection, rationalization, reaction formation, regression, repression, and sublimation were the defense mechanisms Freud identified. However, his daughter Anna Freud clarified and identified the concepts of undoing, suppression, dissociation, idealization, identification, introjection, inversion, somatisation, splitting, and substitution.


"The ego is not sharply separated from the id; its lower portion merges into it.... But the repressed merges into the id as well, and is merely a part of it. The repressed is only cut off sharply from the ego by the resistances of repression; it can communicate with the ego through the id." (Sigmund Freud, 1923)
In a diagram of the Structural and Topographical Models of Mind, the ego is depicted to be half in the consciousness, while a quarter is in the preconscious and the other quarter lies in the unconscious.
In modern English, ego has many meanings. It could mean one’s self-esteem; an inflated sense of self-worth; the conscious-thinking self;[19] or in philosophical terms, one’s self. Ego development is known as the development of multiple processes, cognitive function, defenses, and interpersonal skills or to early adolescence when ego processes are emerged.[14]
[edit]
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2012 - 10:07am PT
It's false ego that is the problem not ego itself.

So when ego has been modified by the direct influence of the external world, then it becomes false ego.

Such as "accepting this body as oneself" = false ego ......
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 7, 2012 - 10:17am PT
So when ego has been modified by the direct influence of the external world, then it becomes false ego.

The Super Ego. The Parental Agency, Religion being one example.

It is a relationship. Surely you don't propose removing the external world from the relationship?

Remember what Dylan says "Ya gotta serve somebody....." Other than just yourself that is.
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2012 - 10:40am PT
Free will

Who will you serve ........
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 7, 2012 - 10:50am PT
Thats up to you. At any rate to serve is to relate
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:00am PT
Rectorsquid
" Does this strong desire to teach kids that something is true when it is not true somehow prove that there is a Santa?"
---------------------------------------


Funny Ijust spoke with my 6yo daughter about Santa.
Last night while driving through downtown Josh. we counted 16 stores who
had 4ft. tall lighted stars adorning their storefront.(they must of had a sale at Biglots). It had us cracken up for 20 mins. Anyway, she asked me why they put up "stars" for christmas
I explained, Christmas is when we celebrate the birth of Gods baby Jesus.
And in those days they didnt have phones,tv or any way to communicate.So
God shined a bright light over Bethlahem so everyone in the world knew where to go to see the new baby,and bring Him gifts. She asks; "did Santa
bring Him gifts?". No, but everybody else did along with 3 wise Kings from far away. They brought so many gifts baby Jesus shared them with all. This made Jesus so happy to see everyone sharing on His B-day. He told us that
if we continue to share between ourselves, He would share with us to.
So He sends His King of the north, Santa Claus to bring us gifts. So if
we beleive in sharing, we gotta hang a shiny star on the tree so Santa
knows where to put his gifts.

I dont know anyone wants to prove Santas real. the message of christmas
is giving and sharing. the secular world teaches its more fun to receive
than to give.

Jus HoHoHo'in
BB
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:32am PT
OT

Hey, quality meat might be in rare supply at some point in the future. So, fyi, here's how you distinguish rabbit (meat) from cat (meat)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8puvi6TgqOE

Don't be taken, don't be fooled.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 7, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
"Conscious awareness resides in the ego,"

why couldnt the EGO reside in the Conscience?

i know this is an atheist point of veiw. But i beleive we all share a
conscience. Ifso, couldnt this "ego" be ourown individual representation
to the whole communal conscienceness?
-----------


Freud used the word ego to mean a sense of self..

"it serves three severe masters ... the external world, the super-ego and the id."

Atleast Freud reconized the three aspects of self...
i would just title them differently; Body(mind), Conscience and Soul


Jus Try'in To Use My Brain
BB
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 7, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
I dont know anyone wants to prove Santas real. the message of christmas is giving and sharing. the secular world teaches its more fun to receive than to give.

Boy was my sister pissed when my wife mentioned being up late assembling some presents. Those presents were labeled as being from Santa Claus because we enjoy putting imaginary peoples, and animals, names on our presents. I get a lot of stuff from my dogs and a few from people I have never heard of.

So I do know of someone who wanted to prove that Santa was real or at least not have it known to her kids that Santa was fake.

Dave
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 7, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
I just can't stop thinking how much you all deserve one another.

DMT
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
Santa Claus is real.

He's at Macy's and the mall and the kids love him.

Ya hafta be Stupid not to see him there .....
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Dec 7, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 7, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
I just can't stop thinking . . . .


Yup. That's the problem, isn't it?
MH2

climber
Dec 7, 2012 - 06:40pm PT
That's why I like fungi. Whatever they think, they keep it to themselves.




Good question MikeL: what might consciousness be like after death, if there is any?


Whoever wrote that essay on fear of death says that Christians would point to the resurrection of Jesus as a guide to what happens after death. After all, why have a soul unless some sense of self survives death? Surely each soul is unique, as Werner says?


The essay also calls asceticism an attempt to get rid of the false self.


Although some Eastern traditions may see the self as illusory, they could be wrong. Nothing appears to rule out a sense of self separate from a body.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
It's false egg that is the problem not egg itself.

So when egg has been modified by the direct influence of the external world, then it becomes false egg.

Such as "accepting this body as oneself" = false egg ......
WB

snicker
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 7, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
^^ double snicker

€lassic
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 7, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
^^^^^

You two are funny.

Although some Eastern traditions may see the self as illusory, they could be wrong.


Absolutely. Right as rain. Each of us (if interested, DMT) must find out for him or herself. (And there ain't much to go on.)

I know about as little about it as almost anyone else. Like DMT, I've been thinking.
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