Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 11441 - 11460 of total 22772 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 5, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
- They have asked me to pray for rain in church tomorrow. <br/>
- Yes, you...
- They have asked me to pray for rain in church tomorrow.
- Yes, you can do that, but the barometer is rising.
Credit: Albert Engström
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
...hope you continue to post. I think you have many readers who appreciate your expertise in cross-cultural comparison and other aspects of anthropological inquiry...probably more would comment but are avoiding the insults and put-downs.

I'll comment. I hope that Jan keeps on posting. If anything I'd appreciate having a 'go-to' for my occasional forays into all things Neanderthal, and prehistorical.
But..... Still.......Gruyere cheese is a Swiss invention...not French!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 5, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
JaN
I agree with the sentiment of your post on Dec.4

" It is possible for multiple belief systems to coexist and seems something worth striving for."

I wish someone in America would prvide a comfortable, peacefull arena
wherewhich we could gather a SpiritualLeader from all the different
Religions. Where they could for no other reason,other than sheer enlightenment. Sit down together to share and discuss the interwoveness
between them, and also the differences. Maybe at a park with a BBQ. Then
share it on Youtube. i thik it would be most entertaining. and educational.
this could bring to light, to the public conscienceness the legitiment understandings of Worship and Praise. Religions aren't defined by their
morles. The "whats" and "whys" of one's worshiping and praiseing are the defining points.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 5, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
I'll leave out the unenlightened, fatuous , and thoroughly forgettable comments about the nature of religion and focus (once again) on the utter ignorance of history revealed in the above comments.


Oh Donald , your such a typical right winger going off the deep end. I'l forget about your link of Naziism with socialism for now for the sake of agreement - yes Stalin and Hitler and a few others are top of the as#@&%e pile sure enough. By pointing out the authoritarian structures of religion I am not automatically equating it with Pol Pot. Sheesh!

However if you're going to run around presenting yourself as the unassailable pillar of moral conduct you gotta walk the talk. Hell, the bloody church of England can't even wrap their pointed little heads around women in the priesthood and they expect to be taken seriously on moral terms?


Blueblocr - such exists, but generally at odds with the most powerful, authoritarian and entrenched.

Just google "interfaith" or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interfaith_Alliance

Religions aren't defined by their
morles. The "whats" and "whys" of one's worshiping and praiseing are the defining points.

Maybe by your standard looking inward. When we look at you, or other religions or any other people we could give a hoot about how or why you praise or worship any more than we wonder why Shriners wear funny hats and have secret handshakes. We really don't care if Mormons wear magic underwear or Scientologists jump on couches. We care only about how you relate to us and others. I'm surprised that you say morality dosn't define you. surely that is how you define "others" ? Please don't tell me that the fact they don't worship your god is more important.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
However if you're going to run around presenting yourself as the unassailable pillar of moral conduct you gotta walk the talk. Hell, the bloody church of England can't even wrap their pointed little heads around women in the priesthood and they expect to be taken seriously on moral terms?

My little polemic with you until now had absolutely nothing to do with right- wingness , personal morality, or even anything to do with yourself or myself personally, outside of our respective comments.
Why would you want to make this sudden ,abrupt left turn into personal mischaracterizations,' walking the walk' -and the treatment of women by the Church of England ?

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 5, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
Donald - why can't they allow women to be able to lead in their church? Because of the unwavering imperative of church doctrine controlled by the upper echelon levels of hierarchy. It dosn't matter what the world outside their little world knows now about gender equality. the rules that were established in the stone age and still conveniently support the establishment power structure over rule.

I only mentioned "right wing" because you clearly are and your over reaction to my audacity in criticizing religion is typical of right wing authoritarian behavior.

So don't take it personaly

Ah! perhaps when I said "You're" you thought i was referring directly to you. Sorry about that. No I should have made clear that I meant "religion" or the Church pretending to be the pillar of moral conduct.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
Okay I am not a spokesman for the Church of England but since this a hair up some people's rear end maybe I can hazard some guesses:

why can't they allow women to be able to lead in their church?

Why would any woman, knowing this to be the 1000 year old tradition of said church ,want to cause schisms and disruptions for that church?If a woman doesn't like this particular take on that churches tradition they are free to go to another church which will accommodate their desire to lead.
Similarly, why would you personally care what the doctrinal imperatives of any given church are, in regards to women, men, church mice or their current choice in ecclesiastical furniture?

I only mentioned "right wing" because you clearly are and your over reaction to my audacity in criticizing religion is typical of right wing authoritarian behavior.

Audacity? Ooooooooooookay.......or should I say ...........Oooooooooooomrkay

Excuse my stumbling desire to get all personal and co-dependent.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 5, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
Why would any woman, knowing this to be the 1000 year old tradition of said church .....

Fair enough, but then one shouldn't be too surprised to see many people leave what up til then has been a respected and beneficial institution over a point of morality born a thousand years ago and doggedly unchanged despite much more recent evidence to the contrary.

Tradition shouldn't be immune from challenge any more than anything else. Of course the answer to that is "God said so".

About why should I care, I've already stated that I don't except where it relates to us, and if they chose to carry their misogynistic imperatives into my secular political sphere then I intend to give then what for. Same goes for their dominionist notions about global warming. Etc etc.

However they can wear their funny hats and engage in strange sexual behavior in our secular world all they want because that dosn't hurt us. If they wish to apply their authoritarianism on us they can go to hell, or at least keep it confined to their club house.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Fair enough, but then one shouldn't be too surprised to see many people leave what up til then has been a respected and beneficial institution over a point of morality born a thousand years ago and doggedly unchanged despite much more recent evidence to the contrary.

People will continue ,and have consistently been leaving these traditional churches for a myriad of profound historical , social ,and philosophical causes. Me thinks the number of persons leaving said churches due to their unhappiness over the churches failure to embrace their particular obsession with whatever the current pop political environment dictates, is relatively small in any case, and not of particular concern to church hierarchy or laity at this time- I could be wrong.

Mr. Kay, as regards tradition, it is perhaps fruitless to get you to understand , coming as you do from a secular mindset, the power and significance of traditional modes of thought in people's daily lives.
Suffice to say that some people are bound to cling to tradition, despite every attempt to convince them of their folly, backwardness, and social and political incorrectness. They are not convinced, as you are, of the objective validity of your own ways of thinking.
For instance , why would an Amish person give up his anachronistic community to go live in your secular, ever -changing world , where he can enjoy the heady progressive delights of watching people murdered continually on the streets and on television?

The Amish are as appalled by your insane world as you are of his lack of modern conformity to your own ways of thinking and behavior.

Attempts to deracinate people from their traditional choices, by an appeal to your brand of social morality is destined to fail. Maybe you should be content and pleased with the fact that there are so many of your type of individual and so few of the traditional minded individuals.
I'll have more to say on the new conformity in later posts.

amish I don't have a beef with

Hear that Amish people? For now it looks like you are safe.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 5, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
Mr. Kay, as regards tradition, it is perhaps fruitless to get you to understand , coming as you do from a secular mindset, the power and significance of traditional modes of thought.


Why say that? Why wouldn't I be fully cognizant such power and significance? Hell thats precisely why I raise it -because of its power and significance. Anyway, like I said, the amish I don't have a beef with mostly because they don't foist their religious imperatives on the rest of us. How many times do I have to say it - If the amish wish to wear funny hats or engage in homosexual activity I could care less. But here's a good question. How about the Mormon fundamentalists? They wish to practice polygammy with underage girls and they sure don't foist it on us - they stick to themselves just fine.

Why should we get all hot and bothered with them? What if they practiced ritualized rape? Hells bells, is that in fact what they do?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 5, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
OK so you're taking a pee break. we'll get back to it later.

How about this since we're on the topic of Mormons (Jennie chime in any time)

Here's a good example of Morals evolving, even within a religion. Not long ago the Mormons were faced with a choice - extinction or give up polygammy. Well next thing you know one of those messages from heaven arrived just in time.... Polygammy is no longer a mandate and ticket to heaven! Praise the lord and lets get going to Utah.

Now assuming for a moment that not only did god say so but in fact the morality of the situation changed. Why was it so hard to say "you know, the heathens have a point, polygammy really does suck." Well I'll tell you and it dosn't in fact have anything to do with an evolution in morality. It had to do with a completely pragmatic directive from authority, most likely the US Government but if you believe the stories it actually came from god himself via the trickle down effect. Either way that which was once moral was suddenly immoral.

But the question remains, why was it so hard - impossible actually - to say the heathens were right on this point? Because it would validate the heathens as moral equals and by its very nature throw Mormonism in doubt as the pillar of morality.

Religion is tribal first, moral second
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 5, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
HFCS - Yeah, DD has plenty to give to the community.

I'd not been able to gather all that much from him. But lately I've been pulling items from youtube to watch later.

cheers
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 5, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
Albert Einstein on Jesus:

"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details." (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)


"In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views.". (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214)


"As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene....No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life." --Albert Einstein


"If one purges the Judaism of the Prophets and Christianity as Jesus Christ taught it of all subsequent additions, especially those of the priests, one is left with a teaching which is capable of curing all the social ills of humanity. It is the duty of every man of good will to strive steadfastly in his own little world to make this teaching of pure humanity a living force, so far as he can. If he makes an honest attempt in this direction without being crushed and trampled under foot by his contemporaries, he may consider himself and the community to which he belongs lucky." -The World as I See It (1935) - Albert Einstein


"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres." (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p. 214)


"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and the body as one, not two separate things." - As quoted in Glimpses of the Great


http://gentleislam.com/love/pages/einstein.htm





BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 5, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
"why can't they allow women to be able to lead in their church?'

Why dont women do "first accents"?

Because men and women are wired differently. Maybe its because man was created from dust. and the woman was conceived from the bones of man.
Therefor let them join back together and become one in "marriage".
Maybe its not their job to lead in the church.Maybe its their job to lead
in the "home".And whats more important to a society? If you been married you know what im talkin about.The man goes out in the world as a representitive of their household. The strenth of that household is representitve of the strenth of the woman. My grandma did more work on the ranch (AND raised 8 children)than my grandpa.But when theres a dispute with a neighbor she sent him.

Divorce in the US is near 65%. I wonder why????
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
Women do first ascents
and everything else,
the only things that women don't do, are the things that men have forbidden women from doing
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 5, 2012 - 07:41pm PT

Gandhi called himself a Christian and a Hindu and called himself a Disciple of Jesus and Tolstoy

Lord Irwin asked Gandhi what he thought would solve the problems between Great Britain and India. Gandhi picked up a Bible and opened it to the fifth chapter of Matthew and said: "When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems not only of our countries but those of the whole world."

To use Gandhi's words, "Today supposing I was deprived of the Gita and forgot all its contents but had a copy of the Sermon on the Mount, I would deprive the same joy from it as I do from the Gita." Gandhi loved Christianity because of its absolute emphasis on love as the most ethical virtue
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Dec 5, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
How about this since we're on the topic of Mormons (Jennie chime in any time)

Here's a good example of Morals evolving, even within a religion. Not long ago the Mormons were faced with a choice - extinction or give up polygammy. Well next thing you know one of those messages from heaven arrived just in time.... Polygammy is no longer a mandate and ticket to heaven! Praise the lord and lets get going to Utah.


Mormons weren’t faced with extinction, Mr Kay…but Utah would be denied statehood if polygamy was lawful within the borders.

And polygamy, was not a mandate for the general membership and the alleged revelation commanding polygamy …was not canonized as church scripture. The reorganized LDS, in fact, claim Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy and that the practice was instituted by Brigham Young. But the concensus among LDS (Mormon) historians is that Joseph Smith did take plural wives although most of his marriages were not consummated in conjugal relations.

In 1950’s Mormon Utah, about one third of marriages were polygamous. By 1890, and the Woodruff Manifesto, less than 10% and perhaps as few as 5% of Mormon marriages were polygamous.

Maintaining barn door polygamy, as non members tend to imagine, requires colossal numbers of women. Women accounted for about 57% of new converts. As the church preferred all adults espoused in marriage…there were simply not enough women available to maintain manifold polygamous communities.

Adding Mormon womens disfavor with plural marriage to the shortage of available females and the social problems seemingly inherent in the institution of polygamy and you had a people dismayed and open to change.

Of course, Americans liked to believe they forced Mormons to discontinue the practice of polygamy by denying statehood. But I believe the Manifesto was embraced by all but those Mormon families entwined in polygamous arrangements…my opinion 122 years hence…

Certainly Mormon polygamy evolved…but citing it as “morals evolving” requires a passel of qualification. I’m certainly against the practice of polygamy, but it’s part of my family history…hurling verbal brickbats at great, great grandfathers is a burdensome crusade. (The tribal aspect of religion)
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 5, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
Divorce in the US is near 65%. I wonder why????


Well I can only guess by your stellar reasoning that it is because of people of lesser morals, like me.

Anyway I was curious enough to google it and came up with this, for what its worth:

The current U.S. divorce rate:

The media frequently reports that 50% of American marriages will end in divorce. This number appears to have been derived from very skimpy data related to a single county or state. However, it appears to be reasonable close to the probable value. The Americans for Divorce Reform estimates that "Probably, 40 or possibly even 50 percent of marriages will end in divorce if current trends continue. However, that is only a projection and a prediction."



Divorce rates among Christian groups:

The slogan: "The family that prays together, stays together" is well known. There has been much anecdotal evidence that has led to "unsubstantiated claims that the divorce rate for Christians who attended church regularly, pray together or who meet other conditions is only 1 or 2 percent". 8 Emphasis ours]. Dr. Tom Ellis, chairman of the Southern Baptist Convention's Council on the Family said that for ", born-again Christian couples who marry, in the church after having received premarital counseling, and attend church regularly and pray daily together, " experience only 1 divorce out of nearly 39,000 marriages -- or 0.00256 percent. 9

A recent study by the Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is ±2 percentage points. The survey found:
[list]
[li]11% of the adult population is currently divorced.[/li]
[li]25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.[/li]
[li]Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.
[/li]
[/list]

George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented:

"While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages."

According to the Dallas Morning News, a Dallas TX newspaper, the national study "raised eyebrows, sowed confusion, [and] even brought on a little holy anger." This caused George Barna to write a letter to his supporters, saying that he is standing by his data, even though it is upsetting. He said that "We rarely find substantial differences" between the moral behavior of Christians and non-Christians. Barna Project Director Meg Flammang said: "We would love to be able to report that Christians are living very distinct lives and impacting the community, but , in the area of divorce rates they continue to be the same." Both statements seem to be projecting the belief that conservative Christians and liberal Christians have the same divorce rate. This disagrees with their own data.


this was from this: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

And can't comment on how accurate these stats are but I must say I am skeptical of BB's assertion of a 65% rate of failure in the US, as well as whatever he's driving at in subscribing blame. But to tell you the truth Blue, I'm becoming less impressed all around with your line of reasoning and general drift in dialogue.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 5, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
Jennie - thanks for that . perhaps it was more nuanced than I thought. I'm no scholar after all. Still that isn't quite the story I heard. Are you saying that the current beliefs of the warren Jeffs / Blackewell fundamentalists do not represent the beliefs of Standard mormonism pre exodus to Utah? That well entrenched and encouraged religious doctrine of polygammy that was directly mandated by god did not exist ever within Mormonism? Why exactly are they called Mormon fundamentalists? I thought their whole split from the Mormon mainstream pretty much hinged on polygammy.

I'll have to go look it up a bit. That is most certainly the common understanding
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
Credit: Donald Thompson

The very idea that the radical left would attempt to slander Mormon fundamentalist polygamy ( fresh from the recent Presidential campaign) while looking upon there own cultural, familial forms with a warm ,fuzzy glowing approbation.
Folks, this is hypocrisy at its most rampant and inexcusable.
And I' ve chosen a rather tame photo to illustrate my point.

Also this deranged attempt to cast derision upon Mormon underwear while simultaneously condoning all sorts of displays of ''underwear' in the pop porno culture as being synonymous with freedom of expression and the highest ideals.
-
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