Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
|
splitter, you're kidding right?!
I'm no optimist. I'm a pessimistic cynic. Don't ever take me seriously, except when I am.
|
|
splitter
Trad climber
da'Raven / Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
|
|
|
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
|
Mimi - we would make a great team! ya got a drier sense of humor then i got (didn't think it was possible)!
ya had me fooled (and a lil' worried, lol)!!
edit: optimism is overrated (imo). prollie why we got so many depressed people in the world, cuz, sooner or later reality strikes them, and its all downhill from there for them. i prefer rock bottom, then there's no way but up. can't get anymore optimistic then that, eh? lol
a measure of cynicism can be a healthy attribute, imo! ya gotta shake things up a lil' every once in awhile or things become to stagnant, eh?
|
|
go-B
climber
Hebrews 1:3
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2012 - 05:05am PT
|
James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.
Matthew 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
 Missing photo ID#274200
Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
|
|
MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2012 - 08:05am PT
|
BB: ". . . being a 49 yro single dad of a 6yro daughter . . . ."
Congrats (really), and good luck.
Jan: You know your stuff.
Jstan: The video you pointed us to ("why schools kill creativity") complained about the focus of education around the world (intellectual topics, as opposed to the arts which foster creativity). It's interesting that the argument itself was analytical and intellectual (sans the jokes). It's sign of the insidiousness of the very complaint. (It's mostly what we do here. I guess we should be thankful that Dr. F. mixes it up for us here on this thread with images of cacti.)
There is another distinction that could be made rather than arts vs. intellectual pursuits: Being vs. Doing. Almost everything we do these days is oriented to doing. Hardly anything we focus on focuses on being.
|
|
Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2012 - 08:12am PT
|
on cue!
|
|
Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2012 - 02:11pm PT
|
Because of the many at the Recovery From Religion foundation
http://recoveringfromreligion.org
and what about The Clergy Project that helps those who find themselves no longer able to play the game, make the believe, or continue the illusion any longer
http://clergyproject.org
If there was an all powerful, all knowing loving god who wanted only to be worshipped as well as the everlasting lives of all those who believed… Then with his power and his knowing he should certainly be able to speak to every person on the planet in their own language explaining everything having to do with his plan and answering all questions people may have.
Though there are no visits, no explanations and only other people (priests, mullahs and rabbis and plain old crazy people) to go by when it comes to something they call the eternal and the everlasting.
For me, if I can get it wrong, then so can any other human.
For me, the key element is the human in all of the stories, events and books.
There are no humans greater than any other human and all are capable of making things up. Especially in a time when corroborating evidence was not such a big deal and nearly anything could be totally made up at any time.
Also, if christianity was the one true religion (and always has been like some would have us believe) then why, with all the importance of the jesus character, why wouldn't the people from the very beginning hold everything jesus touched, everything he made and everything he wore to be the ultimate in sacred? Holding everything including the supposed "empty grave" site in very high importance. For posterity, so that we all remember, so that we all know.
My understanding is that they may not have felt it was that important because they didn't know anything about it… it was made up 50 - 90 years after the supposed events
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
|
Jingy: you're spot on.
You know your stuff.
.....
re: the fruitcake vs the 800 lb lunker, etc.
"According to a mechanistic belief, if we only had a sufficient list of data, we could calculate brain function exactly."
There you go again, true to form: When you're not dodging, misdirecting, wheedling or stalling you are caricaturing your opponent's position.
Now it is true that on occasion these ARE impressive moves for the 800 lb lunk, no doubt he lauds himself for this ability; but the rest of the truth: it gets this thread nowhere (no-where) with these machinations.
Regarding Penrose, unless things have changed in the last 15 years, Penrose should stick to his math and physics. Back in the day, I gave this man's work (along with Tipler's too, btw) my life in a terribly gross number of hours that I can't get back. Now who do I see about that, lunkie? Indeed, a rhetorical question. As there's no one to see about this. So I posted my dissatisfaction here. Last night. Under a reference to Penrose.
Lunkie, you don't control who gets to drivel in this choss pile. You dont control who gets to yuck it up. You should know that by now. I learned a long time ago: yuck and drivel characterize every one of these "serious" non-climbing "intellectual" threads. But this is okay. Last night it was my turn to contribute to the yuck and drivel. Fun. All in fun, I've learned.
Regarding MH2, let's pray his Penrose experience (sure to be measured in tens upon tens of hours) comes to an end more fulfilling than mine. Perhaps at some later date, he might share with us his perceived ROI in clear and lucid form following such a time-consuming effort. Or not.
Cranberry with your fruitcake? ;)
.....
Gould on NOMA:
"Religion is too important to too many people for any dismissal or denigration of the comfort still sought by many folks from theology. I may, for example, privately suspect that papal insistence on divine infusion of the soul represents a sop to our fears, a device for maintaining a belief in human superiority within an evolutionary world offering no privileged position to any creature. But I also know that souls represent a subject outside the magisterium of science. My world cannot prove or disprove such a notion, and the concept of souls cannot threaten or impact my domain. Moreover, while I cannot personally accept the Catholic view of souls, I surely honor the metaphorical value of such a concept both for grounding moral discussion and for expressing what we most value about human potentiality: our decency, care, and all the ethical and intellectual struggles that the evolution of consciousness imposed upon us."
 "a sop to our fears"
an evolutionary ecological frame "offering no privileged position to any creature"
struggles "imposed upon us" (via natural laws vis a vis via The Fall)
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
|
Funny, but methinks Sir Ken protests inanely. If there is a politician who is for less creativity, I would vote for them.
Is this the huge problem:
"As of August 2007 teaching in tertiary educational institutions is one of the fastest growing occupations, topping the U.S. Department of Labor's list of "above average wages and high projected growth occupations," with a projected increase of 524,000 positions between 2004 and 2014."
?
As for dancing and creativity:
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
|
"Progressives" are economic creationists.
They have an abiding faith that wealth is created out of nothing.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
|
Amazing! I have not before seen a youtube get this much comment.
That can happen only if there was something to think about in the talk.
Edit:
We face a huge problem
Houston, we are having an existential problem here . . .
What is really scary is our taking all these years to realize
it is possible to have an existential problem.
|
|
splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
|
TGT - "Progressives" are economic creationist. They have an abiding faith that wealth is created out of nothing. They probably dream about, "Pennies from heaven", ...eh?
;)
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
|
"According to a mechanistic belief, if we only had a sufficient list of data, we could calculate brain function exactly."
There you go again, true to form: When you're not dodging, misdirecting, wheedling or stalling you are caricaturing your opponent's position.
Note that at no time ever has Fruiteloop ever offered a credible variation to a mechanistic model that is not ted to an alogrhythm - including the random variety with a side order of chaos tossed in for flavor. My definition of mechainistic is a causal model where one thing follows another in time and space, in forward progression, and can be known and predicted and verified by way of experiment should be have sufficient data, measurements (alogrhythm). I welcome Fruitcake to specifically point out where his understanding differs from what I have just described.
The real problem is that Fruity wants it both ways - he wants to posit his views as progressive, but he's just as deterministic as the next knucklehead taking pot shots are everyone who differs from tired old duffers like Harris et al. And the idea that facts and figures has redemptive powers and existential soulutions for mankind is to misunderstand the issues handsomely.
And Jesus wept . . .
Primrose is no idiot, and he should not have just stuck with physics and math.
JL
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
|
Primrose is no idiot, and he should not have just stuck with physics and math.
I have trouble interpreting this so I'll merely move on to something more colorful.
If you pull up Roger Penrose in Wiki you find Syracuse University in his list of associations. Back
in the early 60's Roger spent time at Syracuse because Peter Bergmann, one of Einstein's two
docents was there. While there he hung out with other youngsters, graduate students of a
theoretical persuasion and one solid stater who was studying under my thesis advisor. I will
describe a theoretical party I attended so you can get a flavor of the time. First of all realize no
one was talking relativity. Not one thing was described as being "manifestly covariant". I was
palpably relieved at the time as well should you be. Art, music, and automobiles were the central
topics, all delightfully interspersed. I had warning this would be the case as when I came in my
coworker pointed to a five foot high pile of used tires in the living room saying, "You can put your coat there."
It is necessary you know that coats were de rigueur in Syracuse, located as we were just down
wind from Lake Ontario. Furthermore that lake was hardly any distance at all to the south of the
arctic. I need say no more. One of the professors who professed paramagnetic resonance,
indeed, wore galoshes. All year long. There was much debate among the unwashed, as to
whether those galoshes came off at night. None of us questioned whether it was rational. Clearly
it would be very efficient if one had to fuss with galoshes only once in thirty years. We rejected
the idea of asking his wife as she was, while delightfully intelligent. old world Armenian so tough
Putin would have not dared ask of her the question on our minds. That said, back to the party.
When story time came we all heard about the trouble faced that very day by a relativist. No, not a
John Long relativist. A real relativist; velocity of light and all that. The car was a Renault. Tom had
located a Renault in one of Syracuse's many junk yards. Claude, an experimentalist went along so
that some hope might be had for the foraging party displaying some semblance of appropriate
behavior. Alas, it was not to be.
Tom folded the bonnet back over the passenger compartment so it would not be in the way. I
will not tell you Roger took a saw and some diagonal cutters and freed the engine of all its
insubstantial connections to the mother ship. It would be harsh to say such a thing. Tom then
climbed on top of the motor and began whaling at the motor mounts with an eight pound
sledge.
You need to appreciate this is what theoreticians do. If you have to evaluate an integral whose
argument blows up, you are allowed to do anything to avoid the singularity. You can transform it
to get it the hell out of there or you can integrate around it in a fake space. Anything goes.
You can guess what happened once the mounts and the universal were all broken. They rolled
the Renault on its side and the motor came to rest, unencumbered, at their feet.
I know this sounds very crude to an audience of climbers. Very refined as we are, we never did
any thing like this. But really. Sometime before you take the big one, you do need to learn how
the other 99% lives.
Consider that lesson learned.
(In the interest of fluid prose I have taken a few, manifestly covariant, liberties in this account.)
|
|
MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2012 - 06:48am PT
|
You need to appreciate this is what theoreticians do. If you have to evaluate an integral whose argument blows up, you are allowed to do anything to avoid the singularity. You can transform it to get it the hell out of there or you can integrate around it in a fake space. Anything goes.
How might this paragraph be paraphrased for those not contextualized in the subject matter? Might it be, "do whatever you want to make your ideas work out?" Isn't this, again, an example of intellectualism and conceptualization run amok? Does it amuse anyone else but me that a person (Penrose) is attempting to explain intellectually how consciousness cannot be explained intellectually?
Just how far into absurdity do things have to go before people suspect that there are limits to abstraction, conceptualization, rationalization, mental, scientific, thinking? A response might be, "well, maybe, but we have nothing else to rely upon."
Don't be so sure.
|
|
go-B
climber
Hebrews 1:3
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2012 - 06:59am PT
|
Romans 3:10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
|
|
splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2012 - 07:44am PT
|
^ the more i think about go-b (& read his scripture quotes) the more he reminds of the prophet jeremiah!
so, i suspect go-b will, sooner or later, be thrown into a cistern (well) & then ... the judgment will come!!
;)
|
|
Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2012 - 07:59am PT
|
on cue!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2012 - 08:18am PT
|
Dr F says; -- "The more you know, the more you live, the more it becomes imperative that you educate the lost souls."
Modern science rejects the notion of the "soul" as the proprietor of the material body.
Yet you just used soul and not the body to describe the living entity.
Instead look how stupid this would be:
It becomes imperative that you educate the lost bodies ...... :-)
|
|
Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2012 - 08:45am PT
|
I use the word soul in the Material sense
You are your soul, when you die, your soul dies
Please don't bother questioning my use of words that you don't understand, it makes you look like an angry crank
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2012 - 09:04am PT
|
Here you go again...
Note that at no time ever has Fruiteloop ever offered a credible variation to a mechanistic model that is not ted to an alogrhythm
What twists and turns you lay down in your writing - if not intentionally in strategy and tactics to confound then in simple (naive, innocent?) sentence structure? Yikes! Tell me Lunko, what do algorithms have to do with the basic mechanistic model I support?
The mechanistic model I support... which simply follows from science and a science edu... accepts (a) a mechanistic universe and (b) mechanistic organisms (which of course includes the noble creature of Man, who is no exception with any special dispensation). And to be clear by mechanistic, I mean of course (if you've been paying attn) obedient to causality through and through. Pretty simple.
Only religions and confounders in pursuit of their own ideology (which perhaps includes the protection of theology as a tradition) make a mess of it.
Attitude is everything. Just accept the fact that in the modern era, the mechanistic model fully obedient to causality is a viable one on a scientific basis. And in turn a viable one quite serviceable "as foundational belief" to good living going forward in the modern era.
.....
Dr. F wrote,
I use the word soul in the Material sense
You are your soul, when you die, your soul dies
Excellent.
Ever more atheists to agonostics to naturalists to progressive secularists and others are starting to give increasing attn to the language they use. (Just like Dems, finally at long last, in their ideological battles against Repubs.) This is good.
English words like belief, faith, spirit, spirituality, even soul, are great English words deeply enmeshed in English culture and institutions. We simply cannot relinquish them to religions. (Bad strategy.) Instead we must employ them going forward and point out their illegitimacy in religious superstitious context. That is the winning strategy.
Example: It's not "faith" or "belief" in itself that's so weak, provoking or whatever in any number of contexts or conversations but "religious faith" or "religious belief" that is so.
Examples, More: (1) I have tons of belief in rock climbing. By and large these beliefs are science, reason and evidence-based beliefs. (2) My soul yearns to be young again to climb Astroman with Werner B as my second. (3) Everyday I tend to the well-being of my spirituality as a core concern of my "practice of living."
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!