Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Should I post this here?
Or on the right wingers are always wrong thread?


Libby Phelps Alvarez, Former Westboro Baptist Church Member: We Prayed 'For People To Die'


The Huffington Post | By Nick Wing Posted: 02/06/2013 11:14
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/06/libby-phelps-alvarez-westboro_n_2630463.html?ir=Politics

video


In March 2009, Libby Phelps Alvarez left the Westboro Baptist Church, saying goodbye to a life of picketing the funerals of dead soldiers and holding up controversial anti-gay signs.

Nearly four years later, the granddaughter of Fred Phelps, Sr., founder and pastor of the Westboro Baptist Church, gave an emotional interview to NBC's "Today Show," in which she described the controlling life of hatred and intolerance that she's left behind.

"They think that they are the only ones who are going to heaven and if you don't go to that church you're going to hell,” Alvarez told "Today," explaining that the congregation was driven primarily by its homophobic views.

Phelps Alvarez says she recalls a particular moment when she began to feel she could no longer support the group's efforts.

“There was a point when we started praying for people to die,” Phelps Alvarez said. “I didn't actually do that but I was around when they did it.”

She's talked about that behavior before. Soon after leaving the congregation, Phelps Alvarez gave a radio interview in which she recalled being forced to "pray for people to die."

Phelps Alvarez isn't the only one to escape the tightly-knit, secretive church, which the Southern Poverty Law Center has described as a cult and hate group. Among former members is Nate Phelps, son of Pastor Fred Phelps Sr., who has spoken openly against some of Westboro's most high-profile demonstrations. In December, he publicly condemned its announced plans to picket the funerals of victims in the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:45am PT
I'm still thinking about the Cambridge University debate video that fructose posted where the proposition was "religion has no place in the 21st century".

Here are some phrases that stood out for me:

"The truth claims of God vs. Atheism have no bearing on whether organized religion should exist in the 21st century".

"The point is not whether religion is true or not, but that religion started telling people what to do and propagated violence against them".

"Religion is not true but it can carry truth".

"Science doesn't need to attack God; attacking religion is sufficient".

"Religion may not know more about God than science but surely knows more about human nature and how to change it".
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 8, 2013 - 09:42am PT
Atheist says
Fools... all of the religious

A believer says
And you're a terrible scientist with no good brain as usual.


 As a human.... can you say which is correct? (as if there is a correct answer..)


Another thought:
Fools who seek the answer to the question: What is death?

 For a better time in this life (the only life you will ever know) do not think on these things... Spend your time not in the closet in worship (nor on a street corner like it says in your "holy book") but more in living a life worth living.

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 8, 2013 - 10:49am PT
Christopher Hitchins crime was that he showed no deference to the authority of Religion.

If he had had the good grace to go ahead and criticize yet allow them to retain the illusion of moral superiority (and by extension subjugation) he would have been like all the rest of us - annoying but ultimately no challenge. Because he demonstrated the true extent of the unethical behavior of the church and identified it in no uncertain terms he certainly was a challenge - a challenge that could only be met in the end with the accusation of disrespect, as if that is the worst thing that could be proven!


you look at the faces of his debating foes and uniformly they were capable of only showing shocked outrage or perhaps deflecting attempts at belittling humor, but they could never deny the truth of his observations.

Now as for whether the populations of the world can actually handle the truth, good question.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 8, 2013 - 10:56am PT
If "Under Jehovah" is wrong I don't wanna be right
If being right means being without the God of Abraham
I'd rather be wrong than right.
The secular progressives say it's a shame
It's a downright disgrace
But Lord, long as I gotcha you by my side
I don't care what these modern know-it-alls say

My friends tell me there's no future
in worshipping a "bronze-aged fantasy"
But if I can't have you for real
I'll have you in my dreams
If loving you is wrong I don't wanna be right
If loving you is wrong I don't wanna be right

Am I wrong to want it all
Heaven and the 70 virgins
And am I wrong to hunger
For the sweetness of paradise
Knowing there's no evidence nor reason
For any of it

Am I wrong to give my love
to your Son who died for my sins
And am I wrong trying to hold on
to the best thing I ever had
If loving you is wrong I don't wanna be right
If loving you is wrong I don't wanna be right

I don't wanna be right
If it means being without you
I don't want to right
if all it means is this
I don't wanna be right
If Loving you is wrong
I don't wanna be right





Evolution's a bitch.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 8, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
HFCS,

Why do you hate G-D?

Why do you hate The Father, Hashem Adonai Elohim?

The Son, Yeshua HaMashiach?

The Holy Spirit, Ruach Hakodesh?
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
How can you hate something that doesn't exist?
You have to speculate first that there is a God, then hate a idea that you made up.

Is that even possible?


Klimmer, who are those Gods you cite?
are they Hare Krishna Gods

sounds like false idols to me
jstan

climber
Feb 8, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
Klimmer:
You use the word "hate" a lot. Why is that?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 8, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
No one can dispute that HFCS has railed against "The G-d of Abraham" for a long, long time here on ST. Yes, I say he hates G-d. He has demonstrated his displeasure toward "The G-d of Abraham" for a long, long time.


Dr. F,

These are the English pronunciations of the actual Hebrew names.

The Trinity, 3 in One:

Mark 1:10-11 (Cambridge KJV)
“And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”



Edit:

Why Do People Hate God and His Righteousness?
http://access-jesus.com/hate-god.html



MH2

climber
Feb 8, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
It seems to me that HFCS sees God as mythology and Dr F is right to question how he could hate something he doesn't believe is real. In Klimmer's mind God is real and he is displeased with those who think otherwise. Klimmer has no good reason to suppose the problem lies with HFCS.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 8, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
It's not to cause you pain, Klimmer. Instead, it's to contribute - insofar as ONE person can - to this awesome adventurous even miraculous journey most of us call cultural evolution.


miraculous: from the Latin, marare, to marvel at, to be amazed by


.....

HFCS sees God as mythology

Really? I wonder if he sees "animal" as dangerous and bloodthirsty? For the ten thousandth time, doesn't it kind of depend on which "animal"? doesn't it kind of depend on which "God" concept?

It amazes me time and again how you "intellectual elites" - esp those of you who are exacting sticklers for word meaning - don't see the importance in distinguishing between the many and various "god" concepts in order to advance if not your thinking then your posting.

The difference between natural law as a higher power ("God") and the God of Moses as a higher power ("God") is the difference between a lion and a flea.

Of course you know it's useful to have the words "flea" and "lion" among tens of thousands of others to distinguish the variety of "animal" types. So why the hang up with "god"? You might not have the names for the various god concepts but you can still conceive the underlying distinctions.

To be clear: I see the Abrahamic God (the God of the Christians, Muslims and Jews) - esp in all the specifics - that most of us are more than familiar with through Bible and Sunday School - as mythology; even as fiction; and even if across history this fiction served ends, even to inspire or empower, it's still fiction.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
HFCS,

Then why not equally offend Vishnu, Isis, Allah, etc. etc. etc. ?

Why do you constantly rail only against "The G-d of Abraham" ?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
Better question: Why is this answer for you not obvious?

EDIT

Alright, I'll answer (short): Because my America is Christian (historically), not Mayan or Hindu. And, yes, thank FATE big time, it ain't Islamic!

.....

It's not to cause you pain, Klimmer. Instead, it's to contribute - insofar as ONE person can - to this awesome adventurous even miraculous journey most of us call cultural evolution.

You see, I am what I am... a cultural evolution junkie.

Some people are political junkies, others knitting junkies, others reality show junkies, others Scrabble junkies, others "Don't bolt next to cracks!" junkies, others NIAD junkies. I just happen to be a cultural evolution junkie, a science and tech junkie, and an innovation junkie. Together they are a powerful combination. That I am a climber, too, is the co-incident, here.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
So you don't deny you hate "The G-d of Abraham"?

And this is why you rail against Elohim here on ST?

The Natural Laws of the Universe are physical manifestations of G-d's character. There are Spiritual Laws too that manifest His character. Yet you ignore those and dismiss them out of hand.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
P.S. Allah is Jehovah. Jehovah is Allah. Read up on your Abrahamic mythology (or Abrahamic narrative, if you prefer.)

Allah (Arabic) = Jehovah or Yahweh (Hebrew) = the God of Moses = The God of Abraham.

I believe in you, Klimmer. Anyone can learn new material. Give it a go.

No one is too old to learn anew!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
Feb 8, 2013 - 10:15am PT
P.S. Allah is Jehovah. Jehovah is Allah. Read up on your Abrahamic mythology (or Abrahamic narrative, if you prefer.)

Allah (Arabic) = Jehovah or Yahweh (Hebrew) = the God of Moses = The God of Abraham.

I believe in you, Klimmer. Anyone can learn new material. Give it a go.

No one is too old to learn anew!


Yes, I used to believe that also. But The G-d of Abraham, Yod-Hey-Vad-Hey, the Tetragrammaton for the personal name of G-d, is The Father of Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus The Christ.

Mohammad is not his Son. Yeshua and Mohammad are not brothers. The Father of Mohammad is Allah.

Hopefully you can think on that.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:44pm PT

Keeping with the theme on this page...
Do you want to be wrong or do you want to be right?

The Father of Mohammad is Allah.

Only in the sense that... "The Father of all of us is Allah (aka God, aka Jehovah, aka God of Moses)". That is, according to Abrahamic myth and indoctrination everywhere.

But enough's enough.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 8, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
The first Pillar of the Five Pillars of Islam:

There is only one God (Allah) and that Muhammad is God's messenger.




That does not agree with the Theology of Judeo-Christian faiths.

Yes, it is true that they have the same Earthly Father, Abraham. Isaac the son of Abraham -- The Jews, The Hebrews, Judeo-Christian faith. Esau the son of Abraham -- The Arabs, Islam, etc.

Even the Good Book says there would be a struggle between the brothers Isaac and Esau and their descendants, but both would be blessed. Guess what all the Arabs sit on? Oil. They have been richly blessed.

But guess what is now happening world wide? Many of Islamic faith are having visions and dreams of Yeshua HaMashiach, and coming to the realization that Jesus Christ is the True Messiah. G-d is bringing them back. Google it. It's a worldwide phenom in Islam right now, and the clergy within Islam are not pleased.



G-d's keeping his divine promises.

Isaac's descendants, The Hebrews, The Jews, the Tribes of Israel, have the blessing and responsibility of bringing the Word of G-d to the World, and HaMashaich. The Messiah. They have done so. Yeshua HaMashiach is a direct descendant from King David, from Isaac. He is the Savior of the World. And in the end of this age the Nation of Israel will all be saved as prophesied.

G-d is working miracles and bringing salvation as he promised.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 8, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
By the way, speaking of home-schooling, we home-schooled our children in mythology. We used these gems...

(1) Greek Mythology, by Daulaires

http://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360351667&sr=8-1&keywords=greek+mythology+ingri

(2) The Children's Bible, Grispino

http://www.amazon.com/The-Childrens-Bible-Joseph-Grispino/dp/B000HMB23U/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1360351722&sr=8-6&keywords=childrens%27+bible



They are the perfect compliment to each other. I'd highly recommend them. In combination with history, world and U.S., through public schooling, it was pretty well-rounded I think.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 8, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
So who is Allah then, Klimmer, a fictitious god?

Who is Allah? Make-believe?
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