Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 3, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
Just got back from one of my favorite adventure sports, and of course I couldn't wait to check in.

I'll address another issue shortly, but beta otherwise encouragement for DT: why not hook up with MikeL - you guys seem compatible in your acumen and attitude - and head over to rc.com or some such - or at least start your own thread - there you could rule - and there you wouldn't have to put up with all the impertinances and grief you get on this thread.

P.S. Dr. F, your title's fine, I think you know that.

Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 3, 2012 - 03:56pm PT

Are you sure you want to continue to name yourself after a sugar compound that has been shown to glycate proteins in the human body more than any other.

If I went elsewhere I might miss the glowing cerebrums.

Funny how you don't suggest our overtly religious friends go elsewhere?

Enzyme-controlled addition of sugars to protein or lipid molecules is termed glycosylation; glycation is a haphazard process that impairs the functioning of biomolecules, whereas glycosylation occurs at defined sites on the target molecule and is required in order for the molecule to function. Much of the early laboratory research work on fructose glycations used inaccurate assay techniques that led to drastic underestimation of the importance of fructose in glycation.[1]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
Sorry dude, all my sugars are glyscosylated in a highly planned, highly structured pathway. Eat me.

overtly religious friends

Well, if they mentioned nazi or anything nazi related in relation to atheism, the move beyond religions, etc , I'd tell em to f*#k off too, and would so encourage them.


Nice to see in your postscript there that you know the difference between glycation and glycosylation. Let me remind you, I've had a year of biochemistry. YOu don't impress.

In the interim, i'd suggest you'd read up on your evolutionary dynamics, there' are many holes in your evolutionary thinking, I'd say, unless you're just posting sloppy as slop, but maybe that's it.

Anyway, my coffee's done. Adios.



"Mr Sheldrake is a deranged person who believes in a sort of cosmic consciousness, despite there being no evidence for it. He's been looking for years too, so he can't claim that it's easy to find."
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
Eat me

Nope, sorry, but you impair the functioning of bio molecules .
Give yourself to Dr. Frykenweenie, he'll bite.

Anyway, my coffee's done. Adios

By which you mean an intermission , after which you'll go back to harassing guys who believe the earth is 6000 years old.
Like shooting fish in a barrel hey?

Don't put sugar in your coffee.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
what's your point?

Mine, is that evolution was driven by the mandate to live and procreate.

Please prove me wrong
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
Sorry but my mobile battery is down to 10%, gotta split.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
Dunghole - you're to stupid to know you are stupid.
You are trying to explain, or argue, against the most basic concept and LAW of natural selection with people who have PhDs in the area and have studied it for 20 years or more..
The exact epiphany - THE MECHANISM - that Darwin and Wallace discovered after years of field work and study has never dawned on you....
DNA can't think?
Cactus can't think?
You don't understand the basic kindergarten level mechanism of evolution!
Why don't you go and think and read for at least two hours before you try and debate with people who have done so for two decades you obtuse fool..
Do you really think you are fooling anybody with your jibberish?

Dec 3, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
Dear Doctor F.:

I was in a hurry when I last wrote, and I was glib and hasty. My apologies. It is my mistake for not giving a response to you more time. I have no good excuse. I know better (especially here, where one needs to be careful).

You wrote:

NOTHING is more important than the propagation of the species. [Then] The first billion years in the evolution were devoted to that purpose . . . .

I see this saying that "importance" is aligned or is the same thing as "purpose."

"Purpose" to me suggests intention, decision making, motivation, design, and control by some form of sentience. People of religion embrace "purpose." People of religion need belief, then they see.

Science does not. Science is a value-neutral discipline. We don't want our scientists to have political or social agendas. We want them to find facts as disinterested observers, we want them to run the numbers and let the data fall as they may, and we want them to be open to fitting explanations--unbiased, objective, without prejudice, and politically disinterested. People of science want facts and reasonable interpretations and then they'll believe.

It's challenging to resolve the two groups' perspectives.

When one uses "purpose" with a scientific theory (evolution), it mixes paradigms.

One CAN mix paradigms. But that presents logical inconsistencies that need untangling.

I disagree that evolution--as found in Nature or in theory scientifically--has a purpose. I say that strictly as an academic.

(Again, my apologies for being glib.)

Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
I say you're wrong
Evolution is driven by one thing, and one thing only.
or it could be two things
live and procreate

but it can be reduced to only one purpose
Procreate your genes (species/DNA/etc.)

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Dec 3, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
Dr. F;
Just curious, What University did Mother Nature
go to, in order to learn how to create life?

Dec 3, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
Mother Nature is self-taught.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
all life started at the bottom, and evolved up

everything we have was created bottom up
There was nothing that existed until it evolved into existence, no blue prints, no knowledge, no expectations of what may be, not until evolution created it.

Intelligence started at the bottom, and became more intelligent through millions of years of evolution

and then man, the most intelligent life form to evolve, created God to answer the question of where life and intelligence came from, because he couldn't accept that man was the top, and that there was no purpose.

other than procreation.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
I never said intelligence was important
I said that intelligence evolved, and man is the top of the evolutionary tree when it comes to intelligence

Intelligence has only aided higher animal life forms, most life forms have no use for intelligence what so ever
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
There is when it comes to NOW
What has more intelligence than humans?

what is the top of the tree when it comes to size, or mass??
There is always a top
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
I didn't say it mattered, I just said we were
Why are you arguing this?

what the hell do bacteria have to do with man's intelligence?
are they smarter because there are more of them?
no, they are more successful at procreating, which was my only point at the beginning
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
you must have missed the point

what is your point?

Ice climber
the ghost
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
what does it matter, intelligence?

tell that to the first spear maker.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
are you kidding me,?

Intelligence has had huge effect on the success of humans!!!

That is why we are over-populating the world now, and so much more.
We may kill off 50% of the other species in the next 50 years

we are not the top of any tree, but we can take the entire planet down with our nuclear arsenal.

bacteria will live through it, sure
that's not the point

That has nothing to do with the evolution of any specific species

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 3, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
Thanks to Jingy for posting the talk by Dennett on creating meaning from the bottom up. I think this is the path that atheists must take if they wish to have a real influence on society. Instead of insulting people and making them mad, make them think more deeply about their preconceptions and about alternatives to their current belief systems.

Some people will continue to have a top down view, others bottoms up and some will see it from both angles. Whatever one's conclusions, just thinking about the different views will put more responsibility on the individual to think rather than just mouthing slogans.

A bottoms up view and discussion of such, will also reassure the majority that atheists are concerned with ethics and values as so many people assume that being atheist means you can do what you want since you believe there are no consequences. When people perceive that atheists think carefully about meaning and values, atheism will become much more accepted in our society.

Viable movements can not be based solely on what one is against. They also have to have a positive ideology and program. I would love to see an ecumenical gathering where religious leaders talk about values and an atheist like Dennet also presents his view along with theirs. The atheists' natural ally in this would be the Buddhists who also start from the bottom up, talking about what makes people happy rather than what God wants from them. Together they could present a real alternative to the Abrahamic religions, one religious and one not, but both with a reorientation of thinking.

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