Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
I can agree. Although, if we were just conscience animals, like the Ant. Wouldn't we ALWAYS
strive for alignment with NO regards to indivualism? IE Freedom of Choice.

 Tell that to the common Fire Ant (when flooded from their nest they will form a thick floating blanket on top of the water and will be able to float for days.

So tell me these are self serving ants.



I think this is where our "Souls" step in. The voice that says, "Go the extra step!" or the one that rebels against the conscience norm./quote]

 Sorry for clearly showing my ignorance but can you again show your knowledge of the "soul" you talk about?
Is there a place in the body that houses the "soul"?
Wait, don't tell me, "wishing" and "hoping" that we have a "soul" = Having a "soul"?


" If there is data to support this concept, two hundred years from now Mike's idea will probably be held side by side with Darwin's work."

SSSHHHHHH! Don't tell Jingy, he thinks I'm an idiot..[

 And my opinion holds how much water? I'm sure many will tell you "I'm the idiot". Including me.

It's just too bad that the "god" question was answered for me long ago when I realized that man wrote the bible, the koran, and all other religious texts. And of course there are all the questions that go unanswered by the best of the best of the most knowledgable of biblical scholars: If there was a god as you describe why would this god not make it abundantly clear to all no matter where they lived or what language they spoke? Then provide for the free will to go as they might, but at the very least everyone would know the message from "the god of all" and at least we would all be able to agree on "the message from the god".

But we have nothing. Any who look may find their own personal interpretation of "the god" in the man made bible, koran or torah. Isn't that nice for everyone? Except, it hasn't proven to be very effective nearly anywhere on the planet.

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 27, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#275801
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Nov 28, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
the material lump of goo they call their brain is the source and seat of consciousness

Yes, that's right. Mind is what the brain does.

So two points:

(1) Given mind is what the brain does: How does the brain do it? how do our brains produce our minds in all their many, various and glorious aspects, perceptions, experiences?

(2) Given mind is what the brain does: The deniers of the mind-brain model won't be among those to discover any of the answers (what a shame), any of the secret, hidden "mechanisms of action" between mind and brain (what a shame). Because they are in denial. Because their heads aren't in the game. Because they aren't in the labs or the books or the fields thinking about the problem or getting their hands dirty with neurons, soldering iron or fMRI or.... Because they are off in their own fantasy world tripping over some universal consciousness, ghost in the machine, or whatever. That's right, "off in their own fantasy world." In this way, these deniers (not unlike the old lunk here) remind you of the proverbial Yosemite touron from BITD who claimed in all certainty, "Impossible!" "What nonsense!" "Only a dumbass would think you could climb these cliffs of El Capitan!" "Forget such fruitcake nonsense!" So I ask you, how ironic is this?

.....



"Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it."

No matter the field, examples:

 rock climbing
 analytical bioengineering in neuroscience
 energy alternatives
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 28, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
if that sounds circular and confusing with no resolution in sight, it is perfectly suited to explain this thread...


 True dat!!!

Certainly explains the pointless and endless bible quoter's...

But hey, US Atheists have a hand in playing to the biblical trolls every time.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 28, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Mind is what the brain does.

All: ok, then . . . quit muddying the waters by using two terms that are essentially equivalent. Just use the word "brain." Things would be so much easier here.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 28, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
I can agree. Although, if we were just conscience animals, like the Ant. Wouldn't we ALWAYS
strive for alignment with NO regards to indivualism? IE Freedom of Choice.


Tell that to the common Fire Ant (when flooded from their nest they will form a thick floating blanket on top of the water and will be able to float for days.

So tell me these are self serving ants.

The idea that we would be self serving individuals if not for consciousness is a very uneducated and pedestrian viewpoint of evolution. This site has people commenting on evolution without any real understanding of it :(

Whatever action is taken by an individual that improves the chances of their genes getting passed on to offspring will result in those genes getting passed on. If the genes affect brain development in a way that causes group-benefiting behaviors then that's what they do. The behavior of the ants helps them all survive so why wouldn't they work together?

The genes do not care if they happen to get passed on to offspring because of a group action or an individual action. It cannot care because it has no consciousness nor does it need one.

Dave
WBraun

climber
Nov 28, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
The deniers of the mind-brain model

Who's denying?

One can't deny if it's true that the brain is the source of consciousness.

Unfortunately for you it's not, therefore there's no denial.

Experiment on yourself and you'll see that the brain is not the source of consciousness.

The source of consciousness is in fact from the soul itself the living entity.

Within the body (material coat) is the person (the individual).

Do the experiment correctly and not just read some books or wikis .......
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Nov 28, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
There have been many people since the 1500s who have claimed that there is a common thread that runs though all religions, that they all share a universal truth.

Or maybe just a universal delusion fostered by a universal angst brewed up by this consciousness we possess. So the ultimate outcome will vary according to specific cultural influences, insights, and bigotries, but the truth is we don't like to suffer and we don't want to die. So just go from there in any "spiritual" direction of your choosing or upbringing. Or don't.

I visited an Indian family today and they had this six foot tall intricately carved wood Ganesh statue in their foyer. It was spectacular. I just stopped and stared. I like that guy.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Nov 28, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
Wow! Haven't read this thread in about ten days. What a lot has happened!


;>)
MH2

climber
Nov 28, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
The brain is mainly concerned with keeping you alive and passing your genes to the next generation. Does that have anything to do with this thread? I'm pretty sure this thread is the brain taking a break from its more pressing responsibilities.
MH2

climber
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
An interesting comparison of cerebellum versus neocortex, and basal ganglia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellum


All made of neurons but different circuits, and possibly different learning styles, i.e. supervised versus unsupervised. From what we know of the effects of damage, the cerebellum is much less involved in awareness/understanding/consciousness than is the neocortex.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:05am PT
ed
one way of thinking of "mind" would be to presume it is the sum of the various "programs" that run on the brain.

fructose

I don't see much attention (alright, any attn) on the thread to the role neuro circuitry at a variety of levels and in a variety of forms is likely to play in generating consciousness (cf: memory) (e.g., consciousness as a process or stream)

jan

Only when we understand the evolution of the autonomic nervous system, will we understand how the higher functions came to be added on later.


Am I seeing things that aren't here or is this perhaps the beginning of a new theory?

If we accept that mind is the sum of various simultaneous programs, and we then study the circuitry of how they can run simultaneously without mixing (except in dreams apparently), and the study could be delimited by first separating out the autonomic circuits, wouldn't this be one approach that hasn't yet been tried?

.........And Mh2 seems to be thinking along these lines as well.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:56am PT
And thanks to fructose for the reference up above on chromatin fibers.
I was able to use that info in my lecture last night as we summed up the differences between chimps and humans.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Nov 29, 2012 - 11:02am PT
Am I seeing things that aren't here or is this perhaps the beginning of a new theory?

This is today's standard theory. Already. Of neuroscience. Really it has been, too, for 50 years already. And it's only grown stronger as the sciences relating to computers, communications, information, and electronics have grown stronger and have added their discoveries and developments to it.

For instance, a huge part of any graduate level neurobiology course - whether its today or 25 years ago even - is the study (including memorization) of literally dozens of brain circuits (called nuclei) in terms of anatomy (wiring and layout) and function.

EDIT

re: cranial nerve nuclei



http://sprojects.mmi.mcgill.ca/cns/histo/systems/cranialnerves/main.htm

It's true: At one point in my life I had all these memorized.

Google images "brainstem nuclei" for a greater sense of it. Example:

http://www.google.com/search?num=10&hl=en&safe=off&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1440&bih=704&q=brain+stem+nucleii&oq=brain+stem+nucleii&gs_l=img.3...2120.5968.0.7029.18.18.0.0.0.0.140.1880.7j11.18.0.ernk_timediscounta..0.0...1ac.1.4Zm0k1TKUek#num=10&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=d&site=imghp&tbm=isch&spell=1&q=brainstem+nuclei&sa=X&ei=TbW3UOGsDK_uigKAyoGQCA&ved=0CFQQBSgA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=2c631472e78740a5&bpcl=39314241&biw=1440&bih=704

A few years experience spent deep in these subjects - and in a hands-on lab as well - would certainly support in every way the mind-brain model.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 11:03am PT
Now I AM confused.

Here's what I'm reading: the mind is not the brain, but there are these programs and circuits that exist in and run on the brain's circuitry. They account for what we called the mind. Is that right?

Sorry, but I see no real differences at the end of the day in saying that when you all talk about the mind, you are invariably talking about the brain.

I'm not arguing. If you want the brain to account for what we call the mind, that's ok by me. At least we know where we are in our positions. Is the mind completely reliant upon the brain, or isn't it?


Citune: I'm not sure I understand you either. You say: (maybe) the sense of a universal truth or religions themselves (you're unclear what your referent is) is fostered by a universal angst that is brewed up by consciousness.

It seems like you're offering a theory there, but I'm unsure what the mechanism is that leads to the universal delusion you're talking about. In a propositional form, you seem to be saying:

(i) there's consciousness, which we all have.
(ii) it (consciousness) somehow [mechanism?] brews a universal angst in human beings
(iii) the universal angst leads [mechanism?] to a universal delusion?

How does that work? Are you noting a correlation, or are you attempting to explain something causal? If it's causal, I think we need two connective mechanisms: consciousness --> universal angst, and universal angst --> universal delusion.

Just to review, I have been saying that as a life form, we have been evolving our consciousness: we have been evolving to more and more awakened states. The basis of all religions have been initially due to the discovery of some organism's more advanced awakened state pointing to the more advanced awakened state. For example, in ancient Egypt, writing was considered a magical, god-like capability. The recording of ideas was a part of a step forward in consciousness. So was the observation and control of one's emotions.

EDIT: (added the arrows.)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Nov 29, 2012 - 11:09am PT
It's hilarious how MikeL always seems on "standby" to post after the thread's been bumped. Fuuny sh#t.

Like Blu, if he were truly interested in the sciences and what they reveal about consciousness, mind, etc.. he'd take courses in a formal setting.

I think he's a poser, a tosser. WADR.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
re: Does the universe have a purpose?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pL5vzIMAhs

"If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal." -Sagan


.....

[EH Edit:]

Here's MikeL regarding Sam Harris back on the 22nd or 23rd...
I saw derision, sarcasm, denigration, and disrespect of people he was talking to on stage. He had more digs than the SF Giants during the World Series. I also heard conclusions that did not rely upon data and analysis, but a certain amount of dramatic cleverness.

Which is nonsense. It's clear he didn't reflect on the ideas or subjects. Clear to anyone who's put in the work.

When I see a phony, I call it out. Besides, there is a certain tone on this thread which is flip. I thought we established that already many times over. I can engage it when others do. Fair is fair.

If anything, you have a patience with climber posters with either (a) a poor attitude regarding sciences or whatever or (b) "a poor fund of knowledge" that I don't. For this, I am grateful.

I think he's a poser, a tosser.

Like Blu, if he were truly interested in the sciences and what they reveal about consciousness, mind, etc.. he'd take courses in a formal setting.

Beared repeating.

.....

For this, I am grateful.

I better be clearer on this...

To be clear, I mean, I am grateful for our difference in patience on this thread. I am certainly pleased your strategies are not mine. And vice versa. WADR.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
Here, this requires elaboration...
If MikeL is a tosser because he waits for something of value to post about then perhaps I'm in the same league... which I suspect you'd put me in anyway... the world according to HFCS is devoid of introspection and doubt... and not one in which pursuing interests beyond the convention of "practicality" or looking deeper into meaning is viewed with anything but disparaging comments... as a result, I don't always think that responding to every HFSC post is worth my time....

Nonsense.

...a lot of those posts are pretty shallow and filled with much "hand waving" which distracts from the actual state of our understanding of consciousness, mind, life, etc... if one only has a "belief" that following the current path of science will actually provide understanding, well then one is in no better position than some pilgrim on the path of revelation.
Nonsense.


To dismiss MikeL as a tosser is just an indication of HFCS's impatience with people who do not buy into the his own faith...
Nonsense.

The question he asks here is a good one: if mind and brain are always discussed together, then how can you separate them?
Nonsense.

.....

It's ludicrous, really.

You think if we gathered together the sum of MikeL's posts, together with Lunko's and EH's as a response - all in running contexts of course and excluding needless to say all my shallow, unsubstantive ones - we could extract anything meaningful, productive, forward moving from the works that could justify 1,000-plus posts? that would be worthy by any modern measure that concerns modern neuroscience or consciousness? or, along other lines, that concerns future relations between science vs religions or faiths? What's that say? Of course we're all entitled to our opinions.

.....

This morning's zinger...
the world according to HFCS is devoid of introspection and doubt.

Yeah, I wish I could be more introspective. Like others here. I wish I could be more skeptical. Like others here. Maybe it's my makeup. Or, maybe it's just not in my makeup. Maybe it's God's Plan. Maybe it's karma. Who really knows, you know? :)

.....

re: purpose of life, purpose of human life

Here's reflective (just enough) this morning regarding perspective, how perspective is everthing:

You might say, if you're gut bacteria, the purpose of human life is to... provide you with a dark but idyllic anaerobic habitat of fecal matter. (de Grasse above)
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
The "mind" is just a part of what the Brain does

The brain has other functions as well, so you can't always use them interchangeably.

No brain, no mind.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
It seems like you're offering a theory there, but I'm unsure what the mechanism is that leads to the universal delusion you're talking about.

Simply put: wishful thinking. Sure would be nice if we didn't have to die, or if there was some deeper significance to arbitrary suffering. So let's just make one up and then fabricate some groundless substantiation to back it up. Et voila, a modicum of pseudoserenity nestled deep in the collective imagination....

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