Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Stupid Crest, you pinched off your graft stock
Now what are going to do?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 23, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
In regard to Dr. F's second question. I personally believe that the theistic religions are long overdue to discard the angry old man in the sky image that so many still have.

I think a couple hundred years from now they will have done so for the most part. Thanks to the influence of both science and Buddhism, I believe they will have a more universal and naturalistic understanding. No one knows if there is anything after death, but the notion of our karma rather than a judgemental God determining what happens, is a more universal and scientifically sympathetic view than the traditional theistic ones. The idea that if one is in harmony with natural laws and then tries to improve on the ape body and mind with spiritual practice as expressed through their actions toward others, one has nothing to worry about, is a sentiment my young students often express.

Meanwhile, a lot of the answer to this question depends on how one defines God if one is theistically inclined. To what do we attribute the immense positive personal changes people go through after converting to a spiritual/religious point of view? They think God made the difference, and an atheist would say, their own brains made the difference, they had it within themselves all along. If they and we have it within ourselves all along to be a happy and caring person, perhaps that will be the new definition of the God within and science will be left to explain the world without?



WBraun

climber
Oct 23, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
theistic religions are long overdue to discard the angry old man in the sky image

God is always ever new and ever fresh .......
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
How do you know Werner
does God talk to you, and he told you that?
Or did you read it in a book?

That's not in the bible
WBraun

climber
Oct 23, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
Time is eternal.

Every instant is ever new and ever fresh ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 24, 2012 - 09:07am PT
Bump for the most intellectually challenging thread at supertopo.

FYI:

You Christians and Muslims have it all wrong. There IS a God but She's never been to Earth. What's more, Earth ain't the only inhabited planet. There's another one. In the Alpha Centauri system.

Better I think if you Christians and Muslims are sitting down for what follows here, for this fyi:

This planet in the alpha centauri system - called Dildoa - is God's chosen planet (otherwise Her fave); and the dildoans - the very smart inhabitants of Dildoa - are her "chosen" people.



At least this is what the dildoans claim.

So Muslims and Christians, let us put it to you: How seriously do you take their claims?

.....

No one knows if there is anything after death...



Given the facts e.g., (a) we're comprised of 100 trillion cells, we're a multitude; (b) our mentality is an emergent property of brain circuitry; how could there be "anything after death" for the individual of the species - whether honey bee or honey badger or human - if we're constituted like this - other than the big sleep? Only anthropocentrism (or human chauvinism, if you prefer) leads superstitious egos to believe otherwise.

Is there "anything after death" for the cricket that was just eaten bit by bit by the praying mantis? other than its progeny? Get real.

Beta: First, get some modern, up to date convictions. Second, have the courage of these convictions. (i.e., Don't be a wimp.)

one has nothing to worry about


When resources dwindle, when societies collapse, when the world's publics are forced through bottlenecks, when elites get fed up with coddling mediocrity if not dumb and dumber, when competition and the principle "Blood is thicker than water" rouse their needy hungry heads, you'll see how polyannish this statement is in wider context.

(Unless of course you're one of these meditating woo-woo types who could've woke up in Aleppo this morning with the attitude, one has nothing to worry about.)
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 09:11am PT
Hey Fruity
Maybe you can tell BB about how evolution works
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Oct 24, 2012 - 09:17am PT
Time is eternal.

Every instant is ever new and ever fresh ......

eternity is an echo in
reproductive hallways of unchecked imaginations...

god is a filthy vagina in
the exquisite heavenly plane;

she is never fresh and always
due for a vinegar bathe
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 24, 2012 - 09:58am PT
BB has no respect for either science education or for those who have it. That's my take. But no surprise really, he's merely representative of large swathes nowadays of American culture.

Obviously if he had any genuine interests for the subjects (as opposed to interest for attention or merely trolling) he'd lay off this site and go enroll in school (GED?) or read some actual textbooks.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
God is always ever new and ever fresh .......
Wbraun

I would say you just made this up, like you make up everything you know about God

Your God has changed as your view of what God is changed.

But!!!

If there was a God, that created the universe and Time!
Then God would be outside time, and since he outside time, he would not change or evolve.

so God is Not always ever new and fresh,
he is always static and not fresh
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
I could make the Claim: That Werner has Never experienced God

He will Claim he has experienced God

Well show us the proof?
How did you experience God, did he talk to you, did he give you a warm fuzzy feeling, what exactly happened....

are you sure that is was God???
No, you can't be sure.

So my claim is correct, because Werner's counter claim cannot be validated
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 24, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
Hey Fruitcake

Thank You,for being concerned about my education. I did get my GED. Upon reaching my last semester senior year. Iwas notified that I was 20units short to graduate. That my 9th grade was only half completed. Well, I dropped out of school because my best friend Brian Baily
was diagnosed with Luekemia. I went to the hospital every day for 4 mos. instead of school.
He died 2 weeks later. RIP Brian. Miss you buddy! So instead of doing my last semester. I took the GED and at 17 entered the Navy after scoring 86% on the enterence ASVAB test.
And became an Electronics Tech. So when U see BB remember Brian Baily. Nicest, funniest
guy you'll ever meet!

Jus Remember'in
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 24, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
Jan,
How does one define God?

That's too big a question for me. Let's ask God. God what are you?
Hmmm, what god(s) are out there to answer? Let's ask science, anyone?
Let's ask religions; Hinduism, a lot of "good"," religious"people with some mighty fine attributes but no God! Buddhism lots of "good" oriented "religious" people. With one founder. God?
No! A teacher that said don't follow me look to yourselves. The only God I've heard of, is the God of Abraham and Moses. Depicted by about 20 different religions with the same, but different books. His is the only voice in in history who offers the origins of life, the invent of mankind. His ups and downs as well as his demise. And is the only voice who has ever had the audacity to say"I am the only way, through me you may have everlasting life. "
Seems worth investigating?

Jus Seek'in
BB
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 24, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
Fruity said: BB has no respect for either science education or for those who have it. That's my take. But no surprise really, he's merely representative of large swathes nowadays of American culture.


This might be true in some general sense but the empiricism, precision and expertise used in science produces the experts we all trust to run the world and to get things done. And remember, people talk all kinds of sh#t but its their behavior that betrays what they actually think and believe.

Case in point - most of my family came from Venezuela and the current president, former Army paratrooper and coup leader, Hugo Chavez, thinks that fancy education is mostly bourgeois posturing and that so-called "experts" are mostly capitalist posers. But when Chavez got cancer he went to Cuba and some of the best doctors around to get treatment.

The problems arise when we don't acknowledge that the spiritual and material realm are qualitatively different and assume, for instance, that we can explore the experiential for standard facts and figures and probe the material for spiritual material. Who is pleased with what they have found using this method?

JL
MH2

climber
Oct 24, 2012 - 05:25pm PT
The problems arise when we don't acknowledge that the spiritual and material realm are qualitatively different and assume, for instance, that we can explore the experiential for standard facts and figures and probe the material for spiritual material. Who is pleased with what they have found using this method?



One example:


"Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusions. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain is moved by profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence."


http://www.panarchy.org/einstein/science.religion.1939.html
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 24, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain is moved by profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence.

I wish I'd said that (you know like first).
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain is moved by profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence.

What does this mean?
What is: "intense experience of successful advances"?
Please define.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 24, 2012 - 06:07pm PT


What does this mean?
What is: "intense experience of successful advances"?
Please define.

Don't waste your time folks. Move along. There's nothing here.
jstan

climber
Oct 24, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
rationality made manifest in existence.

May I try?

Evolution says that changes making survival more probable, are rewarded with - survival.

That is a rational process. A rational process, one of a huge number, that are embedded in the real world.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 24, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
That is a rational process. A rational process, one of a huge number, that are embedded in the real world.

The sticky wicket in this appraisal is that the original appearance of life could have been accidental, therefore not a rational process, therefore the irrational has given rise to the rational in that scenario.
This is not necessarily contradictory but it is cautionary. Life probably should not go gettin so high and mighty and forget its irrational roots.LOL
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