Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 26, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
" If I could count all of the people who have died over oil, it would be a high number. It is also one of the main reasons that we are hated in the middle east, the other being our staunch support of Israel, who kills its fair share of people every day as well."
The MAIN reason we're hated is because of our "Freedoms"
And that we're tied to the oldest lineage of Christianity in Egypt.

Israel, now that's a whole nother subject. We've been a staunch
Supporter forever. Why? They don't believe Jesus is The Christ.
They don't consider the NT apart of the Bible. In- fact they are a
Type of anti-Christ. But we still stand by them because we Hope
and Know someday, they will come to The Light!

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 26, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
"Consciousness is a mental state reached when the individual realizes they are not alone, and their mental processes require alignment."
I can agree. Although, if we were just conscience animals, like the Ant. Wouldn't we ALWAYS
strive for alignment with NO regards to indivualism? IE Freedom of Choice.
I think this is where our "Souls" step in. The voice that says, "Go the extra step!" or the one that rebels against the conscience norm.

" If there is data to support this concept, two hundred years from now Mike's idea will probably be held side by side with Darwin's work."

SSSHHHHHH! Don't tell Jingy, he thinks I'm an idiot..

Sport climber
Nov 26, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
When I am in the mode of listening to understand, there is at least three "things" going on simultaneously:

1. I am listening actively - inbetween posing questions - to understand (the act of understanding).

2. I am judging the verbal and non-verbal communication based on my values and my gut feeling (judgement).

3. I am watching the interaction as from a point afar (overview).

When I listen actively to understand another person or something happening in a group, the judging and the overview parts are in the background. They are silent, but still active. They do not create noise that disturbs the act of understanding. Though I can make the choice to use the insights that are given from this active background silence. The judging and the overview parts are only disturbing the act of understanding or disclosure if they create an inner voice of moralism (strong voice of moral judgement) or self-consciousness (strong voice of self-commentary).

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 26, 2012 - 04:08pm PT

Excuse me!!!! I should have worded it "A type of anti-Jesus"

The Jews believe there's a Christ; it's just NOT Jesus?

Jus Apologize'in

Edit: I Love The Jews. IAM ONE

Hebrews 1:3
Nov 26, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose
Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Present Condition of Israel
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Israel Needs the Gospel
10 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Israel Rejects the Gospel
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:

“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”

20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Israel’s Rejection Not Total
11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

Israel’s Rejection Not Final
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Stephen Accused of Blasphemy
Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. 10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke. 11 Then they secretly induced men to say, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.” 12 And they stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes; and they came upon him, seized him, and brought him to the council. 13 They also set up false witnesses who said, “This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.” 15 And all who sat in the council, looking steadfastly at him, saw his face as the face of an angel.

Stephen’s Address: The Call of Abraham
Acts 7:1 Then the high priest said, “Are these things so?”

2 And he said, “Brethren and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran, 3 and said to him, ‘Get out of your country and from your relatives, and come to a land that I will show you.’ 4 Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and dwelt in Haran. And from there, when his father was dead, He moved him to this land in which you now dwell. 5 And God gave him no inheritance in it, not even enough to set his foot on. But even when Abraham had no child, He promised to give it to him for a possession, and to his descendants after him. 6 But God spoke in this way: that his descendants would dwell in a foreign land, and that they would bring them into bondage and oppress them four hundred years. 7 ‘And the nation to whom they will be in bondage I will judge,’ said God, ‘and after that they shall come out and serve Me in this place.’ 8 Then He gave him the covenant of circumcision; and so Abraham begot Isaac and circumcised him on the eighth day; and Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot the twelve patriarchs.

The Patriarchs in Egypt
9 “And the patriarchs, becoming envious, sold Joseph into Egypt. But God was with him 10 and delivered him out of all his troubles, and gave him favor and wisdom in the presence of Pharaoh, king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house. 11 Now a famine and great trouble came over all the land of Egypt and Canaan, and our fathers found no sustenance. 12 But when Jacob heard that there was grain in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first. 13 And the second time Joseph was made known to his brothers, and Joseph’s family became known to the Pharaoh. 14 Then Joseph sent and called his father Jacob and all his relatives to him, seventy-five people. 15 So Jacob went down to Egypt; and he died, he and our fathers. 16 And they were carried back to Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem.

God Delivers Israel by Moses
17 “But when the time of the promise drew near which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt 18 till another king arose who did not know Joseph. 19 This man dealt treacherously with our people, and oppressed our forefathers, making them expose their babies, so that they might not live. 20 At this time Moses was born, and was well pleasing to God; and he was brought up in his father’s house for three months. 21 But when he was set out, Pharaoh’s daughter took him away and brought him up as her own son. 22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and deeds.

23 “Now when he was forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren, the children of Israel. 24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended and avenged him who was oppressed, and struck down the Egyptian. 25 For he supposed that his brethren would have understood that God would deliver them by his hand, but they did not understand. 26 And the next day he appeared to two of them as they were fighting, and tried to reconcile them, saying, ‘Men, you are brethren; why do you wrong one another?’ 27 But he who did his neighbor wrong pushed him away, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge over us? 28 Do you want to kill me as you did the Egyptian yesterday?’ 29 Then, at this saying, Moses fled and became a dweller in the land of Midian, where he had two sons.

30 “And when forty years had passed, an Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. 31 When Moses saw it, he marveled at the sight; and as he drew near to observe, the voice of the Lord came to him, 32 saying, ‘I am the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ And Moses trembled and dared not look. 33 ‘Then the Lord said to him, “Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. 34 I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt; I have heard their groaning and have come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send you to Egypt.”’

35 “This Moses whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge?’ is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He brought them out, after he had shown wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

Israel Rebels Against God
37 “This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.’

38 “This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us, 39 whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected. And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, 40 saying to Aaron, ‘Make us gods to go before us; as for this Moses who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.’ 41 And they made a calf in those days, offered sacrifices to the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. 42 Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets:

‘Did you offer Me slaughtered animals and sacrifices during forty years in the wilderness,
O house of Israel?
43 You also took up the tabernacle of Moloch,
And the star of your god Remphan,
Images which you made to worship;
And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.’[m]

God’s True Tabernacle
44 “Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as He appointed, instructing Moses to make it according to the pattern that he had seen, 45 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David, 46 who found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built Him a house.

48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:

49 ‘Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?’

Israel Resists the Holy Spirit
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Stephen the Martyr
54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

"It Was Love"
He could've called ten thousand angels
To deliver Him that day.
**But He hung there in all His anguish
To prepare for me a way**.

It wasn't nails that held Him to the tree
Nor the angry crowd that cried crucify
For when Jesus died upon Calvary
It was love that held Him there.

**Oh what love beyond all measure
That He gave His life for me**
And I'm so glad that one day in glory
His Blessed Face I'll see.

Sing Chorus

Every day I'll tell the story
Of His precious love for me
How He bled and died on Calvary
There to prove His love for me.

Sport climber
Nov 26, 2012 - 04:24pm PT

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 26, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
Pretty tough for it to be any other way given each is convinced its is the only way and no aspect of objective reality ever intervenes in those fantasies.

Nov 26, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
There are a number of different ideas at work here. Together, you guys point to a conundrum or a paradox in sociology.

(i) How can anyone be different when there are so many social influences that encourage people to be, think, and behave similarly (e.g., institutionalization, bureaucratization, rationalization, socialization)?

On the other hand, . . .

(ii) how can anyone be like anyone else when the ego and a personal sense of individuality are as stable, strong, and dominant across societies as they are?

Which is it? Are we like one another and see, think, and feel the same things, or are we individuals who can chart our way through the universe and be who we want?

These are sociological and psychological issues. They don't often agree. (See wikipedia on "Iron Cage" for example.)

Is human consciousness social (does its nature depend upon others), or is human consciousness individual and genetic?

Is it "or," "and," or "not either?"

Is a wave separate from the ocean?

Nov 26, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
Consciousness is an entity which is the subtlest of all. It is beyond body, mind, and intelligence. For example, suppose a patient is under a coma.

He or she does not think or feel anything, and so his or her mind is not active.

He or she does not do any logical analysis and make any decision, and so his or her intelligence is not active either. But he or she is still alive, and so the life-force or the consciousness is fully present in him or her.

In short, consciousness is the symptom of life.

People have tried to link consciousness with the brain, but with no success.

Mind and intelligence may have some connection with the brain, as different types of living beings have different levels of intelligence.

But consciousness does not seem to be merely a product of the nervous system or the brain.

Trees do not have any nervous system or brain, but they have consciousness.

Whether a single living cell has a mind or intelligence may raise disputes, but it undoubtedly possesses consciousness.

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Nov 26, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
Yes Ma'am, God teaches we must submit to those who are in authority over us.
Even in OT times. When David sent out his soldier to kill one of his own men.
God didn't rebuke the soldier who "pulled the trigger". He dealt with David
The one who ordered this heinous act of murder.
Remember, God doesn't judge the "finger", He judges the Heart!

An order by a commanding officer to kill an innocent civilian is essentially forbidden by international law, Blue. Rules dealing with reprisals against civilian populations were fairly distinct before the WWII started.

Do you obey an immediate commander or submit to the higher law by refusing?

As far as the Bible, I see but one example of a transgression greater than shedding innocent blood.

Again, does a righteous person submit to a commanding officer's orders if they are diametrically opposite to the commands of the Almighty?

Nov 26, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
Human consciousness is at least in part a social endowment.

Precisely. Endowments involve some manner of alignment. They are not entirely independent.

In an earlier post I posed what may be a functional definition of awareness, a better name suggested by another( was it Apogee?). Awareness is distinct from consciousness, a term grossly burdened by history.

To look for the other definition I went to the fact we are pack animals continually affected by others. Perhaps more than we realize, we are a continuum. Ala Ramachandran.

The individuals who live as an "anti" actually prove the rule.

The double helix is also shared with plants so use of the word "social" was probably not the best choice.

Nov 26, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
The fact that intelligence is higher than the mind and it is associated with rationality does not guarantee that decisions taken by the intelligence are always right.

Just like in Logic, even if every step in the argument is perfect, if the initial assumptions or axioms happen to be wrong, then all the conclusions would be wrong.

As an example, suppose we have a perfect computer program, but the input to this program is wrong (say, not in the format that the program assumes its input to be).

Then even if every step of execution of the program is perfect, the output will be wrong.

Since axioms are taken for granted and cannot be proven by rationality or intelligence, the only way to choose between right and wrong sets of axioms is by applying proper consciousness.

In all fields of science, this is how the axioms originate – they emerge from the core of human consciousness, and then by applying intelligence upon those axioms human beings develop the subsequent theory or justify observational results.

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 26, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
Paul's is one opinion among many in AI. And probably not without some Hindi bias. And I wouldn't say:

Paul: In short, consciousness is the symptom of life.

whereas I would say:

Healyje: In short, behavior is the symptom of life.

That behavior may or may not be conscious behavior. As I said, it's not a statement made without bias.

Nov 26, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
without some Hindi bias

There's no such word anywhere in any of the Vedas.

You can not use the word Hindu when referring towards Paul's abstract.

You have already made a grievous mistake ......

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 26, 2012 - 09:17pm PT

"Again, does a righteous person submit to a commanding officer's orders if they are diametrically opposite to the commands of the Almighty?"

Jesus asks us not to rebel against our Governments. When a man enters the military.
He pledges an Hohnorable oath to "Follow the last order first." Well, Jesus warned
against taking Oaths. But if you do, they are of this World and of flesh. And will be judged
accordingly. Now if you refuse your direct order, you could be put to death by a military
Judge. But, God knowing your heart, could save your soul.

" As far as the Bible, I see but one example of a transgression greater than shedding innocent blood."

Jesus taught us, if we "break" one of the least of "laws" , we break them all!
If we sleep with our neighbors wife. We've committed murder. (in our hearts(and in theirs)).
I think the Spiritual message is, ANYTHING we do in the flesh is an abomination
to God in Spirit.

These are jus my opinions. Please feel free to criticize

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 26, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
THANKS go-B! I Love You Man!


SOOO much in your post! I've read it 4 times and I wa t to talk about every line ...

Jus Love'in

Nov 26, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
Human consciousness is at least in part a social endowment.

It must be a part of everything. What can your consciousness NOT touch? Some would say that in the most literal sense, it is everything. What I should say is that "nothing" exists outside of it and "nothing" is important. Nothing is where something . . . no, everything comes from.

There is the story of a person attempting guessing who a Hindi is because of his bearing. After many guesses (where he guesses increasingly important personages), the stranger asks the Hindi if he is the King of the land.

"No, I'm greater than that."

"Are you a diety?" asks the stranger.

"No, I'm greater than than."

"Well, who do you think you are? Do you think you are God?" asks the stranger.

"No, I'm greater than that," says the Hindi.

"But," protests the exasperated stranger, "nothing is greater than God!"

"Exactly right," says the Hindi. "That is what I am."

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Nov 26, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
" As far as the Bible, I see but one example of a transgression greater than shedding innocent blood."

Jesus taught us, if we "break" one of the least of "laws" , we break them all!If we sleep with our neighbors wife. We've committed murder. (in our hearts(and in theirs)). I think the Spiritual message is, ANYTHING we do in the flesh is an abomination
to God in Spirit.

These are jus my opinions. Please feel free to criticize

Thanks for the reply…I have to say I don’t believe such translation or interpretation from the book of James captures the intent or meaning of Christ.

Breaking one commandment …we violate the covenant (as such) and breach the “code”…but we, quite obviously, do not break all of the commandments. That would intimate that all sins are equal in severity and equal in reparation, divine sanction and punishment.

Both the Old and New Testament declare the opposite.

The principle of proportionate punishment states that the more serious sin requires more severe punishment. Consider the method of punishment for broken laws in ancient Israel. Were all the punishments equal?
… No. The punishment for kidnapping was death… but the punishment for stealing livestock was their restoration.
The punishment must fit the crime…by Old Testament law.
. . . life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. (Exodus 21:23-25)

This allegory of law was clearly intended as a rule of thumb for judges,not an authorization of personal vendetta or private retaliation.

And in the New Testament "the great commandment" (Matthew 22:38) and "the weightier matters of the Law" (Matthew 23:23)? Christ clearly states that certain things are more important or carry greater weight. These are things that we should give first priority.

What things should we give more priority than not being complicit in the shedding of innocent blood?
…even if such action requires disobeying orders of erring commanders…

Nov 26, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
"But," protests the exasperated stranger, "nothing is greater than God!"

"Exactly right," says the Hindi. "That is what I am."

Mike L That was Sripad Shankaracharya's mayavadi impersonalist philosophy.

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 26, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
"Is human consciousness social (does its nature depend upon others), or is human consciousness individual and genetic? "

Don't you feel different levels of "strenghth" in conscience?

For example; At 5am I get up and make coffee,eggs and toast. Then go sit and read.
But my brain is slow, and my body clumsy. Although I'm happy in routine! My conscience
seems quiet, tentative, and dedicated to me.
Then I meet with a half dozen "Bros", slam a few brews, and make a plan to go
to the Saloon to pick up some "Babes" Between us, we have a verbal conscience "plan".
I'm shy mind you, I had to be talked into it. But with their help, my esteem rises. When we
arrive I have the confidence of 6 men. But when we enter, with our "Brotherhood of Engulfted
Testosterone Attitude (conscience)". We must chill out in-order to mingle with the "Vibe"
(conscienseness) that's in the Bar already. In order to be welcomed. And after awhile of
mixing. The "Bar" becomes aware of our "flavor" or "conscience". And ours of Theirs.
And soon we are ALL "partying" at a higher, stronger level of conscienseness.
And at an Angels Baseball game with 60,000 people. All coming together
In Body,Mind, and emotions to cheer the Angels to victory. Don't you feel a connection
In conscienceness with those around you (who you don't know) to join together and root
for your team?

Is it "or," "and," or "not either?"

I think we all have an experienced amount. And when we mix with other people and share
our experiences. Our conscienceness grows. But there are MANY limbs on this tree.

Is a wave separate from the ocean?

Of course it is! Ask any surfer..

Jus Surf'in
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