Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 10281 - 10300 of total 22700 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 23, 2012 - 10:26am PT
MH,

That is a question for the Radio Astronomers.

We discussed that very question, perhaps on this thread, a long time ago. Somebody had the answer to that.

On these galaxies, which are so far away that they may not even exist anymore, no way.

SETI looks at stars in our own galaxy. One of the problems with SETI is that to pick up the normal level of "chatter" like we have on Earth, it is going to be very hard.

Now if an amplified signal is aimed at us, it is entirely possible. And the good thing about that is that any star within a couple of hundred life years probably still has a civilization. When you are looking at objects that are billions of light years away, hence the light to billions of years to get here, the question of whether that civilization still exists is a really big if.

If you have ever studied this, which I did in a sort of blow off class in the Astronomy department called Intelligent Life in the Universe, you have to do a lot of guessing. How common is life. How common is intelligent life. How long does your typical civilization last.

The number ends up being really low, but still high enough for there to be many, many, civilizations in our galaxy alone.

Even now, a huge bulk of our data transmission has shifted from radio to fiber optics, something Drake didn't figure in. That raises a whole question of how long does a civilization even use radio.

The Hubble Deep Field is a really cool idea. They pointed Hubble at a spot where absolutely nothing was known to exist, then pointed the telescope for ten days at this area, taking over 300 images. When looking at deep sky objects it is common to take a number of photographs of the same spot and then stack them to pick up fainter objects.

The idea turned out to be a really good one, and it gave us an idea of what the Universe looked like billions of years ago, leading into a whole new area of study.
jstan

climber
Oct 23, 2012 - 11:42am PT
When we thoroughly study ourselves then we will thoroughly understand the cosmic manifestation outside of ourselves.

The first step is completely knowing thyself.

I would call this "a trap door assertion". Use of an absolute like "completely" means the statement will always be challenged and so is meaningless.

Astronomical instruments are tools just as is the screwdriver. I would hate to think we have to "completely" understand ourselves before we can use a screwdriver.


I am guessing the Hubble Deep field study overlays images because observation sessions have to be interrupted. If the images are overlaid taking care to get optimum registration, the result emulates closely the result that would be gained from a single long exposure.

Reportedly no atoms existed until 100,000 years after the Big Bang so the universe was filled with a plasma making it opaque to radiation. We can't see past this "last scattering surface". Also reportedly the deep field study has observed galaxies only a half billion years younger than the Bang itself. Which means we still have some head room to get better and see even further back. It is our great good fortune to live in a time just as exciting as that enjoyed by Galileo, Kepler, and Newton, when we discovered the earth was in orbit around the sun.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 23, 2012 - 11:44am PT
Sagan said
In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

Having a open and changeable mind is a "must" as a prerequisite for a scientist!
And it should be for a politician! But it's pretty easy to change one's mind when a list of facts are placed in your face.

Try changing your mind from a individual animal. Living in today's competitive world. Fraught with objectiveness. And lust for material comforts. And everything you "see" is reality.
To
Closing your eyes to "reality", and stepping on one's own ego. In order to allow a spirit to guide one's life. All from a story of a man on a donkey 2000 years ago.

I'd say that's having the most open and changeable mind!

Jus Say'in
BB

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 23, 2012 - 11:53am PT
JStan
That's because you're thinking materialistically!
Try thinking spiritually; my brother.

Jus Bro'in
BB
jstan

climber
Oct 23, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
Blu:
Explain how materialistic thinking and spirtualistic thinking are both done and how they are different? Particularly, make it clear how to determine exactly which mode one is in. If you will.

EDIT:
If you say I am thinking materialistically, what am I doing that makes it so? Phrased another way, how do you tell that I am thinking materialistically? If you cannot answer that question, as you say below, it means you have none of the knowledge you claimed to have.

And your comment was vacuous.

If it was, just admit it. No problem.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 23, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
Well I'm not exactly sure how to explain?
But, if I use that screwdriver and it makes me money. My mind rewards my body.
And when I return it to whom I borrowed it from. My conscience rewards my soul.
MH2

climber
Oct 23, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
That is a question for the Radio Astronomers.



Let's assume that radio and other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum we look at in the sky take the same time to go from point A to point B as they would going from B to A.

When we see light from a galaxy 13.2 billion light-years away, even though that light may have been produced when the universe was only 500 million years old, there has been an additional 13.2 billion years for civilizations to develop there and see light from our galaxy (also estimated to be pretty damn old), although what they saw would be 13.2 billion years younger than us.

However, the timing of the birth and death of technological civilizations looks like it could be short compared to the age of the universe. So civilization A could detect B and unless their lifetimes overlapped B might not see A.

Say for example there is a planet a few hundred light-years from Earth with powerful radio telescopes checking us out. In a couple hundred years they might detect us. If we lose our technology in that time we might never detect them.

I think you can place a bet with William Hill.




edit:


And Blue can place a bet on the Second Coming (current odds of 1,000 to 1 against).
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 23, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
Jstan
But more than that. Knowing that I share consciousness with MANY others in the Word and through the Holy Spirit. I have confidence in being vulnerable. understanding that matter has no power over me. Or without me. That it's just a vehicle. I relinquish my ego in order to see and hear the spiritual world. Enough so that I am able to turn my cheeck and allow myself to be smitten again and again. Knowing that revenge only destructs the body and fortifies the hate directed toward me. Thereby with practice it is easy to distinguish the voice of the mind and the voice of the heart!

Jus Listen'in
BB
jstan

climber
Oct 23, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
Blu:
A person can have relationships as you describe quite independently of "having a complete understanding of themselves". Everyone does materialisitic things at the same time they have these "spiritualistic" attitudes towards others.

They coexist.

Neither is above the other. They are two sides of the coin we call living.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
understanding that matter has no power over me.
BB

what about the rock that may fall on your head?
It has no power over you?
complete delusion


so god talks to you
ask it a question you don't know, like what happened to Noah's Ark, then go dig it up, and become famous and rich!!!

Let us know when he tells you something you don't know, since it will be a historic first.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 23, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
Stolen from wiki, but concerns the number of images in the Hubble Deep Field:

Observations:

Once a field had been selected, an observing strategy had to be developed. An important decision was to determine which filters the observations would use; WFPC2 is equipped with forty-eight filters, including narrowband filters isolating particular emission lines of astrophysical interest, and broadband filters useful for the study of the colours of stars and galaxies. The choice of filters to be used for the HDF depended on the 'throughput' of each filter—the total proportion of light that it allows through—and the spectral coverage available. Filters with bandpasses overlapping as little as possible were desirable.[4]

In the end, four broadband filters were chosen, centred at wavelengths of 300 nm (near-ultraviolet), 450 nm (blue light), 606 nm (red light) and 814 nm (near-infrared). Because the quantum efficiency of Hubble's detectors is quite low at 300 nm, the noise in observations at this wavelength is primarily due to CCD noise rather than sky background; thus, these observations could be conducted at times when high background noise would have harmed the efficiency of observations in other passbands.[4]

Between December 18 and December 28, 1995—during which time Hubble orbited the Earth about 150 times—342 images of the target area in the chosen filters were taken. The total exposure times at each wavelength were 42.7 hours (300 nm), 33.5 hours (450 nm), 30.3 hours (606 nm) and 34.3 hours (814 nm), divided into 342 individual exposures to prevent significant damage to individual images by cosmic rays, which cause bright streaks to appear when they strike CCD detectors. A further 10 Hubble orbits were used to make short exposures of flanking fields to aid follow-up observations by other instruments.[4]
jstan

climber
Oct 23, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
As I suspected. The binning of images was caused by orbital motion and the high readout noise in the near IR. Getting background radiation to be the factor limiting signal to noise is the main goal. I am not familiar with the Hubble's near IR band.

Cosmic rays cause streaking because so much charge is generated the CCD is taken outside of its dynamic range. The series of pixels can't be read out in sequence.

From Wiki
Each optical channel contains a 256×256 pixel photodiode array of Hg0.554Cd0.446Te infrared detectors bonded to a sapphire substrate, read out in four independent 128×128 quadrants.[1]
The infrared performance of the Hubble has limitations since it was not designed with infrared performance as an objective. For example, the mirror is kept at a stable and relatively high temperature (15 C) by heaters.
“HST is a warm telescope. The IR background flux collected by cooled focal plane IR instruments like NICMOS or WFC3 is dominated, at rather short wavelengths, by telescope thermal emission rather than by zodiacal scattering. NICMOS data show that the telescope background exceeds the zodiacal background at wavelengths longer than λ ≈ 1.6μm, the exact value depending on the pointing on the sky and on the position of the Earth on its orbit.”[2]

I used to work in HgCdTe. When I retired we had still not gotten defect densities down for HCT epilayers on sapphire. It is a lattice matching bear even by molecular beam epi. Also they are running hot optics and that produces high levels of background coming from the system. Not good. Not good. Probably run at constant temperature to gain dimensional stability. Don't know what the mirrors were built using. You want to be limited by background from the scene. You are up in space after all.

Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 23, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
Dr. F,

"To be blind is bad,
but it is worse to have eyes
and not see."
Helen Keller
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
Why the hell are you telling me that

I can see all of what you see, or any one else here can see, I see just like all of you, there is no significant difference between what you see and what I see, or hear, or feel, or sense the subtle intuition that can be only sensed when the mind has "quieted". We are all the same.

I look farther, and unfiltered, and past the myths, and through the preprogramming.
Do you think I can't appreciate beauty?, well you are severely mistaken.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Oct 23, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
Comments about whether civilizations exist now on planets many light years away might be a bit vague. What does "now" really mean in this context? Since motion (or messaging) is limited by the speed of light, "now" has little relevance. However, if wormholes or similar bizarre phenomena exist, "now" might be appropriate in this context. Action at a distance might help solidify the concept. Ed might have more accurate information from the world of physics.

Just silly musings . . .
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 23, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
Just to get a sense of the immense intergalactic distances involved, this single quasar outflow is at least 200,000 light years in length.



[ edit: shorter distance from more reliable sources ]
jstan

climber
Oct 23, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Ed gave a good discussion recently of Minkowski's "World Line" concept in space-time. Helps one visualize trajectories in space and communication times.

For a rock climbing site, ST is getting rather interesting.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 23, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
Credit: Donald Thompson


No , atheists have a tendency to establish hideous totalitarian states and starting world wars that end up murdering millions in concentration camps and gulags,or in forced collectivization.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
Really?

Tell us more
That's what atheists do?
That's their tendency?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
I wonder what Helen Keller would say about this?
Credit: Dr. F.
Messages 10281 - 10300 of total 22700 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews