Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 10241 - 10260 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
The cat hears sounds
we hear no sounds from God, nor any other thing that we can point to as coming from God
So your analogy doesn't work

If there were sounds that we couldn't understand, we can investigate them and try and understand what they were.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
WBraun

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
If there were sounds that we couldn't understand, we can investigate them and try and understand what they were.


Unfortunately you're not investigating only playing god.

Yet, the scientific method has already answered this question,
It does not happen, it's all man made fantasy.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 25, 2012 - 12:04am PT
OK, Dr. F. Breaking my own last post rule.

Yoga says that we can hear the sounds of God and that we hear different sounds depending on the state of our own consciousness. Each chakra has a distinctive sound that is separate from the Om.

base 104 and a couple of others have heard a distinctive sound while alone for long periods in the Alaskan wilderness.

If these sounds are produced by the body, then what groups of neurons or layers of neural networks are they connected with? I asked that question already and no one was interested. It is something physical that the scientists could test however.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 25, 2012 - 12:05am PT

Science has no explanation for the first law of thermodynamics which they are glad to label but cannot explain how the complex matrix can come into existence in a moment, which all of which is required for anything to exist out of nothing. They cannot explain that nor can they explain how it holds itself together because there's no way to find the power that holds it together scientifically, nor can they explain the principle of disintegration and disorder in the second law of thermodynamics. The Bible explains both perfectly.
WBraun

climber
Nov 25, 2012 - 12:24am PT
The lump of matter (brain) is not the center of intelligence.

It is the consciousness of a particular soul (ego) that works intelligently.

Of course the materialists will deny because they are stuck in the less intelligent belief they are the material body (false ego) which is the covering of the living entity.

But Jan is right about the transcendental sound vibration of "OM" which is none other than the impersonal feature of God himself.
MH2

climber
Nov 25, 2012 - 11:27am PT
Well, a deep hole in the ground.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 25, 2012 - 11:34am PT
^^^^^^ if you play it backwards do u get the anti-christ?^^^^^^^^
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2012 - 11:49am PT
I find the concept that some sound that we can "sometimes hear" to be "the sound of God" to be quite ludicrous.

First of all, the sound is just a vibration that is felt when you are quiet, which makes sense, since the only time you would be able to detect such a vibration is when you are quiet. OK, so what?

Why would this sound be God?
Just because it's something that we can only hear while quiet?
I can only see stars when it's dark, does that make them special?

Is this sound relaying any information? no
Is this sound outside the body or inside? doesn't really matter? since the sound is meaningless without any information content.

Should science investigate this sound?
IMO, No, since it is just a vibration that just barely within human detection, there are 1000s of other vibrations that are not detectable by humans that carry no information bombarding us every second.

The only vibrations that carry any intelligent information ever detected with any device, were all created by man, and mans human brain.

Can something without a Material Brain create vibrations that carry information to a level that approaches any sort of intelligence?
we have never witnessed that, radio waves and other frequencies from the heavens do carry information but it is not manipulated by any intelligent source, it is just information like light from a star, which carries not intelligence.
WBraun

climber
Nov 25, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
Dr F along with many proponents of the mechanistic material sciences
suffer extensive forms of filtration of knowledge that does not conform to their limited theories, hypothesis, mental speculations,
along with undo ridiculous projections fabricated in the factory of their fertile minds onto life outside of them ........
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 25, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
It's just not an area of human endeavor given to neutrality, fence sitting, purgatories, or no man's lands from what I've seen so far.
--


I think you are getting mired in the common trap of believing that lest you perfectly quantify and label your specific philosophy, there is no way to "prove" or argue your case ergo you're "fence sitting," dodging, being slippery and evasive and simply don't know in the end.

But does reality actually lend itself to such neat packaging? A larger view might incorporate the conundrums and paradoxes that are at the very core of being human, and the dance of opposites that we see playing out in most everything. These opposites don't mean the same thing as contradictions, any more than night contradicts day, or death contradicts life.

But I can understand your desires to know a given position, though mine is not arrived at through the traditional western road of mentally grinding on something till I get it "right." Nor am I a staunch literalist like Craig, still demanding an audio track of God Almighty to vouchsafe that the Big Dude really talks to Fruitcake in plain English.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 25, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Q: "What exists that we can't understand," asked Dr. F.

Fair question, but I suspect that "an answer" depends upon what will qualify as an answer for you.

To that point, what do you mean by "understand?" Do you mean conceptually? Do you mean experientially? For example, would a blind person (from birth) be able to understand sight? If a person had deficient or missing taste buds, could they understand what taste is or that sugar is sweet? What about infinity? Must a person experience some form of infinity to understand it, or is a conceptual notion of infinity enough for you?

Concepts vs. experience has been much of what this thread continues to come back to. But there is more. What about "direct apprehension," which is a form of understanding that cannot quite be grasped intellectually (also called, "noesis" by the Greeks). What about empathy? Does that qualify as understanding? (Heinlein in his book, "Stranger in A Strange Land" referred to something called, "groking" which appeared to be a combination of noesis and empathy.)

And what about the visual paradoxes or illusions that present two things simultaneously that cannot be grasped by the mind together. Oftentimes a person cannot see one of the two without first "believing" that there is a 2nd view. (See Escher or visual tricks that rely upon letting go of one view in order to see another view.) You, Dr. F., believe that first someone must show you proof before you believe. Then you can accept. But there are instances where one must first believe before one can see.

Taken from Google Images
Taken from Google Images
Credit: MikeL

So whatdayamean by "understand?"
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 25, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
healyje: It's just not an area of human endeavor given to neutrality, fence sitting, purgatories, or no man's lands from what I've seen so far.
Largo: I think you are getting mired in the common trap of believing that lest you perfectly quantify and label your specific philosophy, there is no way to "prove" or argue your case ergo you're "fence sitting," dodging, being slippery and evasive and simply don't know in the end.

I wasn't saying that. I was saying that in the halls of academic philosophy they don't appear to do a lot of fence sitting and it would also appear the don't have much respect for those who do.

Largo: But does reality actually lend itself to such neat packaging?

No, which is why I would presume there is such endless splitting of logical hairs in philosophy in general.

Largo: A larger view might incorporate the conundrums and paradoxes that are at the very core of being human, and the dance of opposites that we see playing out in most everything. These opposites don't mean the same thing as contradictions, any more than night contradicts day, or death contradicts life.

Well, maybe to a point, after which it does just become a contradictory or convoluted mess, or both.

Largo: But I can understand your desires to know a given position, though mine is not arrived at through the traditional western road of mentally grinding on something till I get it "right."

I'm not attempting to label you or understand your 'position' so much as just understand you at all and to date I would say you haven't made that particularly easy. You clearly lean fairly heavily on [Chalmers'] philosophy and zen practice, but then trying to understand you from those perspectives, all appearances are somewhat mirage-like as you dance from candle to candle.

I'm obviously suffering from a grasshopper problem...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 25, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
“When water started trickling down a statue of Jesus Christ at a Catholic church in Mumbai earlier this year, locals were quick to declare a miracle. Some began collecting the holy water and the Church of Our Lady of Velankanni began to promote it as a site of pilgrimage.

So when Sanal Edamaruku arrived and established that this was not holy water so much as holey plumbing, the backlash was severe. The renowned rationalist was accused of blasphemy, charged with offences that carry a three-year prison sentence and eventually, after receiving death threats, had to seek exile in Finland.

Now he is calling for European governments to press Delhi into dropping the case. And on the first leg of a tour around EU capitals on Friday, he warned that India was sacrificing freedom of expression for outdated, colonial-era rules about blasphemy.

"There is a huge contradiction in the content of the Indian constitution which guarantees freedom of speech and the blasphemy law from 1860 under then colonial rule," Edamaruku told the Guardian in an interview in Dublin.

"This blasphemy law can affect anyone in India – even a girl recently who wrote on Facebook against closing down a city because of the death of a famous local politician. She was prosecuted under the blasphemy law and another girl who 'liked' her comment on Facebook was also arrested and then charged with blasphemy."

Edamaruku, who has the support of rationalists and atheists such as Richard Dawkins is well known in India for debunking religious myths, and was already unpopular among Indian Catholics for publicly criticising Mother Teresa's legacy in Kolkata.

When the state "miracle" was pronounced, he went to Mumbai and found that the dripping water was due to clogged drainage pipes behind the wall where it stood. His revelation provoked death threats from religious zealots and ultimately charges of blasphemy under the Indian penal code in the Mumbai high court.”

and:

“… many proponents of the mechanistic material sciences suffer extensive forms of filtration of knowledge that does not conform to their limited theories, hypothesis, mental speculations, along with undo ridiculous projections fabricated in the factory of their fertile minds onto life outside of them ........”

WBraun is still quacking as he knows perfectly well... zeenyboppaluuba...
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Nov 25, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 25, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
Marlow
Sounds like the typical argument brought on by the materialist who isn't wise to spirituality. Portraying his negativity onto the spiritual person who isn't wise to materialism.
Doesn't seem like Sanal Edamaruku was a plumber. He was in anti-believer. He went into the Catholic "holy place" with an agenda to point at some "matter"to prove their spirituality wrong.
That would be like me going to Mecca and saying Mohammed never walk the earth. What kind of backlash you you think I would receive?

I don't know how much of your story is true. For me looking at the whole story and how the Catholics portray their relationship with Jesus. Gives me understanding as to why our Protestant "early settlers" felt the need to leave their home country, and flee to a new place
and in enact a "religion free from government" political system. And to get away from the Catholics need for symbolism and material proofs. Brought on by the government!
An Eye for an Eye. Government should only be the referee to the religions. Not a judge.
And it should never side with a religion. And we should certainly not vote for a man because of his religious background
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 25, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
I'm not attempting to label you or understand your 'position' so much as just understand you at all and to date I would say you haven't made that particularly easy. You clearly lean fairly heavily on [Chalmers'] philosophy and zen practice, but then trying to understand you from those perspectives, all appearances are somewhat mirage-like as you dance from candle to candle.


I like some of Chalmers stuff but not his basic propositions - and I doubt that he would call his ideas philosophies so much as simply the way things are.

My basic position is that mind is no more and no less than the subjective version of the universe. Much of what we find in there is vastly counterintuitive. It's hard material for everyone because we cannot "think our way to heaven." The many who have failed blame Heaven. We can hardly blame them.

JL
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 25, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
Sounds like the typical argument brought on by the materialist who isn't wise to spirituality.

 ok then… explain spirituality to me… as if I was a 5 year old.


The problem I have with the "you just don't get it" argument is that it works only because you think you "get it" (i.e. knowing the mind of god in a sense) and that if only I 'got it" the world would be a great place. Even here there is an obvious problem: If it were a case of people just "getting it" then its obvious to me that many others around the world are "getting something" quite different than the US Christian "get's". Ultimately this leads me to the conclusion that everyone of those who say they "get it" is mired in a delusion and have confidence that they have "found something" they will never be able to clearly describe or convince others they "got".

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 25, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
Is this sound relaying any information?
Well it should...

1 Corinthians 14
Prophecy and Tongues
14 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

Tongues Must Be Interpreted
6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? 7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? 8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? 9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Tongues a Sign to Unbelievers
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.

21 In the law it is written:

“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”

says the Lord.

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.
Messages 10241 - 10260 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews