Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2012 - 09:56am PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Ouch
MH2

climber
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:30am PT
What do you consider to be the difference between subjective and objective experience. I've asked that question fifty time and not a single person has taken a crack at it.


Objective experience: a rock falls on your head


Subjective experience: how you feel about supper
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2012 - 10:43am PT
Objective experience: a rock falls on your head


Subjective experience: that solid rock put a hole in my head that hurts like hell


It was an example, I have no hole in my head
WBraun

climber
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:46am PT
Dr F -- "Subjective experience: that solid rock put a hole in my head"


The hole in your head.

Explains a lot .......
jstan

climber
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:59am PT
Subjective experience: how you feel about supper

I am glad you brought up the subject of supper. Finally a real topic.

When I was growing up we always had supper; never dinner. The two generally mean the same today but the older meaning of supper was of a lighter informal meal following the formal meal, dinner. So the feeling one has about supper is of interest. For example if one is maintaining the fiction that they are on a diet during formal dinner, supper is where you go to get an extra helping of pie and ice cream. That extra helping being a matter of the most serious kind.

Or, if you are not attracted to formal circumstances you would just call the meal at the end of the day - supper. Since Andy is not on a diet, we can conclude he does not find formality attractive, by and large.

Now, wasn’t that easy?

jogill

climber
Colorado
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:09am PT
When I was growing up we always had supper; never dinner. The two generally mean the same today but the older meaning of supper was of a lighter informal meal following the formal meal, dinner. So the feeling one has about supper is of interest. For example if one is maintaining the fiction that they are on a diet during formal dinner, supper is where you go to get an extra helping of pie and ice cream. Also if you are not attracted to formal circumstances you would just call the meal at the end of the day - supper


Finally, a post on this miserable thread with substance! Well done, John!


;>)
jstan

climber
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:15am PT
Thank you.
Thank you
Thank you.

Now, time for some more pie.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:52am PT
Finally, a post on this miserable thread with substance!

Or something interesting. If people won't venture out and explore new ground, and instead just parrot back what they think or believe, the conversation starts to resemble two bald guys arguing over a comb.

I invited people to try and describe what their subjective experience itself actually was, knowing you can not talk about a process like subjectivity in the same way that you can a cell phone or an event horizon, but note how folks scramble away from this most basic of all questions, since subjective experience is our fundamental lived reality. It might not result in "substance" that we can wrangle into an equation, but I bet it would be fascinating to hear how people view their tangible as opposed to theoretical or conceptualized lives.

JL
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
, but I bet it would be fascinating to hear how people view their tangible as opposed to theoretical or conceptualized lives

They are one and the same for me, a seamless continuum . A perfectly ordinary thought at a perfectly ordinary gourmet lunch and suddenly I' m in the fast food of the twilight zone.


Credit: Donald Thompson

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
Subjective and objective

Being objective is leaning back on what you portray as true. But actually in reality it's a lie!
You and a partner could climb the Nose 100 times. But compared to the first time you climbed it awe struct, scared, excited! (subjectively).In each consecutive climb your brain tries to override your childlike-awe and emotions. And focus narrowly at the solid facts. If i ask you for Beta. You'll hand me a topo and rack list and say the route hasn't changed. But unbeknownst to you overnight the Boot flake fell off and there was no king swing. You can't truthfully describe El Cap Objectively. It literally changes every day by erosion. It's changing every second you look at it. Like all matter!

The only objective truths each of us has our our subjective experiences.

I'll even go one more step in saying the only" real truth" are our emotions!

Jus Change'in
BB
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
Finally, a post on this miserable thread with substance!

I thought that no one answered it because it's a silly easy question to answer.

Objective: My dog is a mammal.

Subjective: My dog is great. I love my dog.

The measure of a mammal is considered a well know thing and my experiences in life have nothing to do with "mammal." On the other hand, my dog might be great at biting kids so "great" only has meaning in my context and not the context of others.

I'm not sure why subjective vs. objective would be a hard question unless you try to include magic into the meaning somewhere.

I can't actually define the context of my life because I have had more than trillions of experiences and keeping track of them is impossible for a human. If I were a regular old PC sitting on a desk and had trillions of pieces of information that I used to define a word like "great" then you would no more understand my context when I used the word than if I were a me, a meat brain.

Dave


WBraun

climber
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
You guys aren't even going deep enough and just swimming on the surface.

Largo has been trying to dive deep to find the elusive Perl while most of the rest of ya rowed out there in circles, got wet and rowed back with nothing ......

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
Largo: And yet for all of Craig's universal wisdom, he can't even tell us the difference between objective and subjective.

And,in 10k posts, neither have you and you clearly haven't developed any good way of conveying the results of what you're 'investigating' at 6:45 or why you'd bother doing it again tomorrow. Ah, right, I forgot - it's 'subjective'. So far, about the only thing that can be gleaned from from this thread is that at 6:45 you become an non-projecting vessel available and open to what you can't say, but whatever that is, it's "real[ity]", open to 'investigation', and isn't just a figment of your imagination (because you aren't imagining at the time). And you have questions for me?

Werner: Largo has been trying to dive deep to find the elusive Perl

Well, when you get back to the surface with empty hands after every dive it can be hard to get folks to believe they're all pearls and I don't suspect another 10k dives is really going to get us there at this rate.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
I am a spiritual being. Trapped in matter.

The only way I can get you to agree with me is by being objectional.

Jus Agree'in
BB
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Oct 22, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
These two dudes I persuaded to put the sweaty costume back on just now,for a photo ,swore that 'objective'
and 'subjective' depends on what end your in.

Credit: Donald Thompson
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 22, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
Just accept it. Largo is John Long's joke. He has confirmed it time and time again. It's as simple as that.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
So the cactus didn't prick me, it was an illusion.

That's the silly stuff these nihilists are pedaling

cactus -> spines -> Objective
puncture skin -> pain -> Subjective

cactus -> pain

The objective reality of the observed cactus spines is the same as the spine that caused the pain in my subjective experience.

So it can be said, I was able to observe the objective reality in almost every possible way, except maybe UV, IR, Radio waves, and smells. I don't have those senses in my subjective tool kit.

I can see the cactus, I can touch it's spines, I can predict what would happen if I touch the spines.

What am I missing??
(Werner, don't bother)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 22, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
Says Dave:

I thought that no one answered it because it's a silly easy question to answer.

Objective: My dog is a mammal.

Subjective: My dog is great. I love my dog.

The measure of a mammal is considered a well know thing and my experiences in life have nothing to do with "mammal." On the other hand, my dog might be great at biting kids so "great" only has meaning in my context and not the context of others.

I'm not sure why subjective vs. objective would be a hard question unless you try to include magic into the meaning somewhere.

--

So we see for Dave, objective is a measurement and that measurement is “well known.” And while Dave himself is also a mammal, as his dog is a mammal, to Dave, actually BEING a mammal has “nothing to do with” a mammal, while the measure, symbolic representation or conceptual notion of what a mammal is and does and exists in the world – this is "well known," apparently better know than Dave's own experience.

What’s more, to Dave, his subjective experience – which he roughly describes as what he “feels” about something, here, his dog - has no universal context save when he defines his life by way of measurable aspects – “great,” “good,” difficult,” “easy,” et al being radical variables on a floating scale.

Basically Dave has said he believes that his subjective experience is how he feels (“great”) about reality (note that he doesn’t include what he thinks, remembers, senses, believes, etc), and that those feelings have no context and cannot be “well known” in the sense that we can “know” a “measurement.” It would seem accurate that Dave is "thinking his life."

What’s more, Dave believes that the “context” of his life is provided by the “trillions of experiences” he’s had, meaning the ephemeral content or qualia for Dave constitutes his “life.”

Lastly, the question is “easy” for Dave unless he tried to “include magic into the meaning somewhere.”

This is a fantastic tag to Dave’s beliefs about his subjective experience, except Dave does not tell us what he means by “magic,” and how it relates to his subjective experience - or to anyone's.

Then Healyj says:

And in 10k posts neither have you and you clearly haven't developed any good way of conveying the results of what you're 'investigating' at 6:45 or why you'd bother doing it again tomorrow. Ah, right, I forgot - it's 'subjective'. So far, about the only thing that can be gleaned from this thread is that at 6:45 you become an non-projecting vessel available and open to what you can't say, but whatever that is, it's "real[ity]", open to 'investigation', and isn't just a figment of your imagination (because you aren't imagining at the time). And you have questions for me?
-


In psychology that’s called a “reversal.” I have commented many times that subjective experience is not a thing that we can measure in the normal way but a geysering and ephemeral flow.

At the core of Healyj’s rant above is his insistence that the purpose of “investigating at 6:45” is to glean “results” in the normal sense of the word, that these non-results are not open to measurements (his version of investigating) and in fact the fruit are “things” that are “imagined.”

Note that Healyj looks at subjective experience solely in terms of the qualia, the things that rush though, the “figure” not the ground, the foreground, not the background.

Also, “knowing,” to Healyj, is the ability to grab something. These are the only “pearls” that he imagines are out there which are not imagined. And “getting” those pearls are, to Healyj, the only thing that’s going to “get us there.”

I’m still interested in hearing how Jealyj experiences his subjective life, what he believes is happening and how he experiences both the figure and the ground. And if he ever “got there,” where would that be?

And Marlow, man up for a change, drop the passive agressive gig and try the thought experiment instead of dodging it.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 22, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
Noun

objectivity (countable and uncountable; plural objectivities)

The state of being objective, just, unbiased and not influenced by *emotions or *personal *prejudices
The world as it really is; reality
That which one understands, often, as intellectually, of all and everything, of what is sensed as felt, thereof "material"
That which is perceived to be true to understanding

The object of understanding

Isn't how, the world "really is". IT, "really Is" CHANGING??? Every second!!!

Isn't it true that you're objective truths are pinpointed in time from which you experience them?
And upon returning to that experience you find a whole new set of truths.

When you say "I see the cactus" what truth are you relaying? While you're looking at it, it's changing. When I look at it, it's different than when you saw it. So our truths will always be a little bit different depending on our point of view in time.
The TRUTH we both CAN look back at, is our emotional outcome from the experience.

So our subjectiveness becomes our object... If truth is a noun?

Jus Lie'in
BB
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Oct 22, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
Werner: Largo has been trying to dive deep to find the elusive Perl
Largo has as much chance of grokking Perl as Larry Wall does of making an onsight solo of Astroman.
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