Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 10101 - 10120 of total 22344 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 20, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
". . . as I understand Watson, responses are based on "experience" gleaned off the web."

I think it is fundamental to this discussion to fully appreciate that no one, Watson included, can glean "experience" from a 3rd party (the web, or anywhere else). Experience is and always will be first-person, subjective phenomenon.

DESCRIPTIONS, symbolic representations, and various quantitative maps of first-person subjective phenomenon posit experience as a "thing" or noun, so to speak, and our discursive minds can crunch the symbolic data of these descriptions, which are one step removed from experience itself. This underscores the stubborn fact that once the subjective is objectified, it is no longer subjective - it is a report about, rather than a direct experience of, subjective reality. Conversely, probing matter for raw awareness (NOT processing) is like studying an oak floor for "dancing," even though dancing arises directly of said wood.

That much said, there is no duality between the objective and subjective, meaning neither exists independent from the other, in some absolute way. This is a vastly counterintuitive insight that will never come to you through discursive reasoning, which can imagine material reality existing totally independent of and absolutely apart from consciousness.

Tied to this seemingly obvious state of reality is the likewise obvious notion that material creates the subjective, which is dualism of a kind.

JL
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 20, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
I AGREE!
God said that He could SEE us before He formed the Earth. And that He can SEE into all time. This gives me a sense that everything's already been done. When I look back on my past. I recognize that my path was almost always being steered by outside forces. And of all my physical experiences the only thing that I was truly in control of, was my attitude. And what I projected back to the ones involved with my experience. Basically was I positive or negative in reaction. But more importantly was I exuding LOVE or HATE ?

That makes no sense because any choice you made about your attitude changes the future. If you had a choice then there is no way that even God would know the outcome until you made that choice. If he knew the future then you had no choice because your destiny was already decided.

If there is free will then there is no way to predict the future.

I should have said; evolutionists theory is causation from the solar cycle(sunlight and weather)
And the applied laws of Physics. Pushed the elements of the Earths crust around until they "fused" together. Providing them with inert means of memory through the process of logical
Algorithms. To which they were able to build algae and other simple plants until they could grow out of the sea. Then adapt to Earths air environment. Thus enabling them to produce
RNA. Then behold a COMET lands on earth bringing DNA. And the rest just followed suit?

That is all gibberish that has little or nothing to do with evolution. Who the heck is the "they" and "them" in all of that?

Learn at least a little about evolution before deciding if it's hogwash or not.

Dave
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 20, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
Thanks Dave,

I refer to "they" or "them" as meaning the elements and particles of our world.
And how" they" unknowingly became a cell....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 20, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
Largo stated;
" DESCRIPTIONS, symbolic representations, and various quantitative maps of first-person subjective phenomenon posit experience as a "thing" or noun, so to speak,"


I would posit; That our thoughts and emotions become material or "noun" when we speak using sound.

"Scientifically" sound carries forever. And God said 5000 years ago he records every word from our mouth. I believe it!!
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Nov 20, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
Blueblocr take the wheel!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 20, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
Cintune, Thanks for your input?

Now do you have any thing creative from your soul to include on topic??

By creative I mean formed and shaped through your mind to add to our mountain or molehill..

Jus Ask'in
BB
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Nov 20, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
Heh, nope, nothing not already being far better articulated by others here. I'm just not that militant about it all; find it all rather humorous at this point. And as always, whatever gets you thru the night.

slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Nov 20, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
MikeL:
Doesn't your use of the word "reaction" signal there is little choice?

Not at all. When confronted by an experience one perfectly reasonable reaction would be to not react at all.

You really think there is an infinite number of choices that can be made? By you? By anyone? By a rich or poor person, by a catholic or protestant, by a female or male, by an Indian or Japanese, by a primitive in New Guinea or a sophisticate in New York City? Can one become another by choice?

Yes, I really think there are virtually an infinite number of choices to be made given any particular experience anyone might be confronted with. We are, each of us, who we are both by circumstance (things out of our control such as parents, the culture we are born into, the out-of-control bus hurtling toward us or the meteor about to take out Manhattan)and our very individual choices we make when confronted by experience. Yes, we are all different (though certain sets from your example above aren't necessarily mutually exclusive) but the fact that we are different doesn't mean that we have fewer choices when presented with experience, just different choices.

Perhaps you really want to say that there's a little bit of both choice and reaction? Maybe it's not choice OR reaction; maybe it's not choice AND reaction, maybe it's NEITHER not-choice NOR not-reaction? (Tricky, no?)

I think that there is both choice and reaction. The Universe is a dance with everything and everyone as our partner. The way in which we move (choice) will change the dynamic of the dance floor creating experience for others to make choices on how they will move which changes the dynamic of the dance floor creating experience for myself and/or others to choose how to move. .. .. .

What I imagine you might be pointing to is Bell's Theorem and multiple universes--where each and every decision splits reality into a diverging parallel universe. If all decisions lead to parallel universes, then doesn't that also indicate a lack of control and rigid causalities?


I'm not familiar with Bell's Theorem or diverging parallel universes. I don't think that any decision results in the splitting of reality into a diverging parallel universe. What I think is pretty simple, actually. I think that we make choices to presented experiences which brings on new experiences leading to further choices. We are, at any given moment, the result of both all of our previous choices and experiences. I don't think that there are parallel universes for each of our choices coexisting out there. Those possible avenues were shut down when that road wasn't taken.

Each and every polarity (like good and evil, like choice and determinism, like light and dark, like life and death) indicates an indescribable unity that cannot be captured by concepts, words, or symbols. There are things that transcend our intelligence. It's our intelligence that separates and parses reality into opposing dualities, and then attempts to choose one over another. Those are not choices that can be made. They are impossible.


Or maybe those polarities are nothing more than the construct of an inquisitive, playful intelligence and as such no choice needs to be made. Or did you just say that??
WBraun

climber
Nov 20, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
If he (God) knew the future then you had no choice because your destiny was already decided.

That's not true.

If you want to stick your finger in the running fan then I'll tell you not to do it since I already know the out come, you'll fuk up your finger.

But you have free will and choice to not listen and stick your finger in it to find out for yourself since you're still a child or stupid adult.

So I'll turn the power off without you knowing that and say go ahead stick it there while it's still spinning to keep you from whacking your whole finger off but some pain will still beget you.

You're pain is your karma for being stupid and not listening and the pain is your destiny.

Only God can change destiny.

This a crude layman's example how God gives you choice and free will and always strictly honors it ......



MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 20, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
Ed, I believe that animals etc. have consciousness. I think they are sentient. I don't think they have the kind or level of intelligence that we have. As for what humans Really Are, I don't know. I think everything is a form or manifestation of consciousness.

As for Largo's complaint about "experience" gleaned off the web, do you want to want to amend that word choice? I mean, I get (I think) what you're getting at--patterns associated with human meaning--but would you argue that the interpretation of the patterns is what Watson "is doing?"

Or maybe those polarities are nothing more than the construct of an inquisitive, playful intelligence and as such no choice needs to be made. Or did you just say that??

I did. :-D

(Forget Bell's Theorem . . . it's completely academic.)

I'll grant you that infinite choice exists theoretically for everyone. How about if we agree that almost everyone avoids exercising their options? Would you agree what most people actually "do" seems to be within their character?

I think this continues to relate to Ed's point of view: humans are what humans do. (Apologies for putting words in Ed's mouth; I know it's unsanitary.)
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2012 - 10:12pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
No BS!!

Lets see you Christians say something that isn't in the bible

Where is Jebus Now??
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Nov 20, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
...Sherlock!!
jstan

climber
Nov 20, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
I wonder. Does Craig realize the "chill" poster is producing unreasonable suffering?
Can't be. He would not do such a thing.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
I am unable to sense the feeling of others when it come to hyperbole

Now chill the F*#k Out
He's got that
MH2

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:01am PT
Max Delbrück expected molecular biology to develop along different lines than it did, but he and Roger Penrose may turn out to be right about physics at smaller scales than chemical reactions being needed to understand how living things are organized and how they function.




A funny thing that happens when I read about consciousness:

People give examples of systems that are clearly mechanical to show that, although it quacks like a duck, it may not be a duck. I always think, "Maybe that 'mechanical process' is what is going on in my brain. How would I know?" Especially with Cleverbot, the software that passes the Turing test by sorting through a large table of what humans answered when they were asked a similar question; I'm almost sure I do the same.



So, MikeL, I basically agree with you.
jstan

climber
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:52am PT
I suggested the expectation that another moment will follow the present one is carried right down into the chemistry. When an energy source is used it will be renewed. When waste products build up in the muscles the body takes whatever measures are necessary to regain strength as soon as possible.

It has to be this way for survival. During the moment to come.

The expectation there will be another moment exists in every subsystem. This is true for every organism, so that they might survive, If this expectation is the basis for consciousness,

then every organism has consciousness.

Now depending upon the suite of subsystems contained in the organism, that consciousness may be different.

This line of thought does away with the core of homo sapiens' ego.

But it allows there to be more than one kind of consciousness.

Furthermore since the expectation exists as a survival mechanism, it is not a leap to say that evaluating risk is a process integral to consciousness.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:13am PT
If you want to stick your finger in the running fan then I'll tell you not to do it since I already know the out come, you'll fuk up your finger.

Lets see you Christians say something that isn't in the bible

Where is Jebus Now??


It's to late, pull your head out now!




healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 21, 2012 - 01:20am PT
I think of 'consciousness' as being exhibited degrees of sense/reaction behavior. Organisms from bacteria to humans exhibit behavior and so are 'conscious', each to it's own abilities.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 21, 2012 - 08:33am PT
Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return to the Lord your God,
For you have stumbled because of your iniquity;
2 Take words with you,
And return to the Lord.
Say to Him,
“Take away all iniquity;
Receive us graciously,
For we will offer the sacrifices of our lips.
3 Assyria shall not save us,
We will not ride on horses,
Nor will we say anymore to the work of our hands, ‘You are our gods.’
For in You the fatherless finds mercy.”
4 “I will heal their backsliding,
I will love them freely,
For My anger has turned away from him.
5 I will be like the dew to Israel;
He shall grow like the lily,
And lengthen his roots like Lebanon.
6 His branches shall spread;
His beauty shall be like an olive tree,
And his fragrance like Lebanon.
7 Those who dwell under his shadow shall return;
They shall be revived like grain,
And grow like a vine.
Their scent shall be like the wine of Lebanon.

8 “Ephraim shall say, ‘What have I to do anymore with idols?’
I have heard and observed him.
I am like a green cypress tree;
Your fruit is found in Me.”

9 Who is wise?
Let him understand these things.
Who is prudent?
Let him know them.
For the ways of the Lord are right;
The righteous walk in them,
But transgressors stumble in them.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 16:5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

John 14:14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
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