Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Nov 18, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
How many times have WE ALL experienced something that made us stop and think WHOOAAA? Could be that you showed up just as you were being needed by someone, or that the tree fell across the road just as you PASSED and not on you. Or any number of other "weird " things. These are the times some soul checks in on you, "guardian angels" for a lack of term. Ive seen and had too many of these to assume coincidence. And if i feel those souls checking in, how cool is that! Native Indians felt theirs too, before being introduced to written words.
jstan

climber
Nov 18, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
Ron:

For every WHOA moment there are hundreds of Oh Shoot moments when it would have been nice to have a WHOA.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 18, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Jingy asked;
" If there was an all powerful, all knowing loving god who wanted only to be worshipped as well as the everlasting lives of all those who believed… Then with his power and his knowing he should certainly be able to speak to every person on the planet in their own language explaining everything having to do with his plan and answering all questions people may have."
___

Well, I have explained this principal in prior posts! But I will offer a rebuttal soon...

For now I have a question for the "EVOLUTIONIST":

Why didn't "evolution"leave an inscribed recipe for the brain and body???
Before the advent of the brain and primates. Evolutionists say plant life consciously decided to metabolized the brain. Did plants "FEEL" a need for a brain? Without a brain they couldn't "think" they needed a brain! So did in fact "feelings" create the brain? with no stored knowledge on how to do so ? And where would the motivation come from required to keep trying over and over 1 million times until the actual thinking process started? it certainly didn't get it right the first time.Meditate on that for a minute... seems absurd don't it?

So what IS this "it"; this consciousness, this motivation, that propelled Clay to want to move?
From a consciousness of "all" to a consciousness of "individual"? it seems as though from your description of evolution. Wouldn't The individual consciousness soon evolve out of evolution Process? So did the brain take over control from the conscience? Then why hasn't the brain kept any record of its own creation? Each time a brain is born it is a blank slate.
A baby bird doesn't "know" he can fly. And mama bird shows she cannot communicate the process of flight. When she physically pushes baby out of the nest. The human baby doesn't know it needs to eat to sustain life. When a baby is hungry he "feels" unpleasant. And becomes angry and cries. When he is fed he becomes calm and happy.

I CONCLUDE THE BRAIN IS STUPID ! Even though it is the most complex sophisticated creation in the universe. And the idea that clay scrambled itself so many times without motivation to produce a brain is even stupider!!!!!!

So I ask you JINGY ,, where is the stored consciousness that provides all the information
For the "fight or flight" motivation to propel matter for success ???????

I KNOW NONE OF YOU CAN PROVIDE A LOGICAL ANSWER. THIS IS MY POINT PRECISELY !!!

I am merely asking you to meditate on it ........

Jus Meditate'in
BB
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 18, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
As you've said, the Sun rises in the east. That is a truth. (The claim that the sun rises in the west is not the truth.) The subject at bottom can be as simple as this.


The Chinese had a saying just after the Revolution in 1949.

"The sun can rise in the West".

It was a very effective slogan for mobilizing the masses of China to change their old ways of thinking and try new methods.

It was their truth in that context. Scientific, logical context is not the same as political, poetic, or artistic context. Materialism, engineering and science are not the only truths. That's all the non scientists are trying to say.

Too bad Ed seems to be one of the few materialists here who understands that.

And if you doubt the power of defying tradition and logic, just compare China in 1949 and today.

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 18, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
Donald-

Many mistakes were made and many injustices were done just as in the history of the settling of the American continent. In both cases however, the majority of people involved benefited.To deny that China is better off today than before the revolution is right up there with denying evolution.

Facts are facts. The concept of truth however, is a little more tricky.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 18, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
Fruitcake sez . . .

Here you go again...

Note that at no time ever has Fruiteloop ever offered a credible variation to a mechanistic model that is not tied to an alogrhythm

What twists and turns you lay down in your writing - if not intentionally in strategy and tactics to confound then in simple (naive, innocent?) sentence structure? Yikes! Tell me Lunko, what do algorithms have to do with the basic mechanistic model I support?


I think it’s pretty facile to realize at this late date that Fruitcake does not actually know what he is saying about his own thesis – a bogus, low-down, dog-eared, crummy thesis withal, but it’s what Fruitloops believes in body and soul, and the daft sap is sticking by it.

Now Fruity, while I am the one you accuse of “confounding,” what part of the following do you not cede as the simple and manifest truth, and at which point do you take issue, and what other interpretation might you offer (specifically)?

Fruitcake wonders what algorithm has to do with a mechanistic belief in reality. A few posts back, Ed mentioned something that maigh help Fruitloop get clear on his own beliefs, vacuous, daffy and downright dumb as they might seem to some among us.

While Fruity rambles on and on about “causality,” a fluid term, hard to posit with much accuracy, Ed suggested “determined,” or deterministic, as an alternative term for our Fruity to test drive, so to speak.

That means that in “believing “ in causation as he does, Fruitloops believes that whatever person, place of thing we are discussing (make it some electronic gadget if you have to) was created and came into existence by virtue of a linear sequence or chain of events, the former of which “determined” the latter. If your understanding of same is different, Fruits, kindly and specifically say how.

As mentioned, it might be the case that at the juncture of Q and R (Q/r), random influences enter the causal chain; but the subsequent “S” would still, perforce, be "determined" by the chaotic or random Q/r.

Because a determined chain MUST represent a sequence to remain determined, we can import protocols from mathematics and computer science (i.e. – algorithms) which will posit the very step-by-step sequence of the determined events, providing a “procedure for calculations.” If CERN runs by another strategy, tell us what that is.

Such an algorithm “is an effective method expressed as a finite list (determined causal chain of events) for calculating a function."

Primrose said that such a alogorithm could never “calculate consciousness” since, in his opinion, consciousness is not determined. Aspects of consciousness are almost certainly determined, such as the discursive mind, a clear neocortex function.

That, Fruntloop, is how algorithms might apply to the basic mechanistic model you support. Bear in mind that alogrithim is a term associated with Primrose, and his notion of consciousness – which I don’t entirely agree with, incidentally – and is the basis on which he is attacked by material/mechanistic fundamentalists, who believe consciousness IS a determined, mecdhanistic function "created" by antecedent material events.

If by some wild chance you have some other understanding of how your mechanistic belief system works, which cannot be expressed in a linear sequence in which subsequent events are determined by antecedent ones in the causal chain, then kindly explain on what mechanistic process your mechanistic view might rest.

This should be good . . .

JL
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 18, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
Donald-

Have you ever been to China?

It's easy to condemn something in the abstract. Much harder when faced with hundreds of millions whose lives have been improved.

Not to mention that the Cultural Revolution is recognized by all as a mistake and is a long time ( 50 years or two generations) in the past.

Perhaps some of your sensitivity to totalitarianism should be directed at the treatment of the Native Americans or African Americans ? Or the collateral damage in Iraq?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 18, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
Churches should be taxed to the hilt… Specially the Morman church, for what they did in California…

http://www.politicususa.com/campaigning-pulpit-wing-churches-lose-tax-exempt-status.html

After Campaigning from the Pulpit, Right Wing Churches Must Lose their Tax Exempt Status

By: RmuseNovember 18th, 2012

The simple phrase “All men are created equal” has been called an immortal declaration, and perhaps the single phrase of the United States Revolutionary period with the most grand continuing importance even though after 236 years there is still inequality in America. It is ironic that Thomas Jefferson wrote those prescient words because if he were alive today he may be astounded that despite his “wall of separation” between government and religion in the Constitution, this country still gives preferential treatment to religious organizations to the detriment of the country’s economic well-being and at the expense of taxpayers. It is time to stop forcing taxpayers to fund religion with the ridiculous tax-exempt status to bring a semblance of truth this country’s “immortal declaration” asserted over two centuries ago.

Religious organizations are given consent to declare themselves non-profit charitable organizations by simply signing and filing 501 (c)(3) papers with the Internal Revenue Service. They, unlike other non-profits, are exempt from keeping accounting records, and the only requirement to be exempt from paying taxes is that they refrain from endorsing, preaching against, or supporting any candidate from the pulpit. However, religious groups around the country break their agreement with the IRS with impunity, and it has prompted a group in Wisconsin to say enough.

The group, the Freedom From Religion Foundation filed a lawsuit on Wednesday against the IRS for failing to audit thousands of churches that violated federal tax law by engaging in partisan advocacy. The lawsuit alleges, “The Internal Revenue Service, under the direction of the Defendant Shulman, has followed and continues to follow a policy of non-enforcement of the electioneering restrictions of §501(c)(3) against churches and other religious organizations. As a result, in recent years, churches and religious organizations have been blatantly and deliberately flaunting the electioneering restrictions of §501(c)(3), including during the presidential election year of 2012.” Back in October, in a flagrant violation of 501(c)(3) rules, over 1,600 preachers engaged in Pulpit Freedom Sunday and actively campaigned from the pulpit to challenge the IRS rules that allow them to leach money from taxpayers.


Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 18, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
To get from feudalism to free market capitalism is not as easy as you suggest.

Serfs must first have their minds liberated. Mao, whatever his faults managed to do that. After all, he was himself of peasant stock.

Meanwhile the liberal democracies wrestle with the same problems that Mao confronted and if countries like Afghanistan and Nepal are our witness, we are not as successful as Mao.

Idealism makes the idealists feel good. Realism actually provides benefits for the down trodden of the earth.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 18, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
And meanwhile I wonder if you are as equally critical of Park in Korea, Chiang kai shek in Taiwan, and Lee Kwan Yew in Singapore -right wing idealogues who also raised their people from poverty? And also massacred many along the way? Chiang killed at least 20,000 Taiwanese intellectuals within 6 months of occupying Taiwan.

Either you condemn them as well or you admit that all these authoritarians including Mao, did some good.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 18, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
jan sez

"The Chinese had a saying just after the Revolution in 1949.

"The sun can rise in the West".

It was a very effective slogan for mobilizing the masses of China to change their old ways of thinking and try new methods."
__

ISN'T THIS IN FACT CONSCIOUSNESS CREATING MATTER???
And through the use of words and ideas consciousness is able to provoke matter into new duties?

Jan also said,

"Meanwhile the liberal democracies wrestle with the same problems that Mao confronted and if countries like Afghanistan and Nepal are our witness, we are not as successful as Mao."
___

DOESN'T THIS PROVE MATTER CAN'T CHANGE CONSCIOUSNESS?
In countries like those and Iraq. Haven't we physically bombarded and forced these people into accepting our ideals? In stead of first offering ideas to consciously change their duties!

THE ONLY WAY MATTER CAN CHANGE CONSCIOUSNESS IS BY HOLDING IT CAPTIVE

Jus Free'in
BB
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 18, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
BLUBAG EDIT:

Jingy asked;
" Well, I have explained this principal in prior posts!

 Sorry blubag for breaking this to you now, but I only read about 3 percent of your posts, when I decide to read them at all… But in this case, I'll waste some time and go through this one and see if I can make sense of it.


But I will offer a rebuttal soon...

 I guess this would be the bases for all belief, or this would be what is promised by religion all over… (just believe that we get something… soon… maybe at the very end)(oh, I know that life never ends for the true believer, but I do not believe this to be true… It's other humans beings using their imaginations to envision their own perfect worlds…. for after they die…. a time they will never know about, or at least never report to others about.)


For now I have a question for the "EVOLUTIONIST":

Why didn't "evolution"leave an inscribed recipe for the brain and body???

 uh.. it kinda did… the recipe is called "DNA"… You should check to see how close your's is to that of a chimp… you'd be amazed!!!

Before the advent of the brain and primates. Evolutionists say plant life consciously decided to metabolized the brain.

 I hate to point at your ignorance of the subject like this… again… But before brains and primates… plant life did not "consciously" do anything. You make it seem like plant life has little brains.
Think about what a plant does:
From a seed grows roots to gather nutrients from soil, and also leaves, stems, bulbs, blossoms for photosynthesis and the breaking down the nutrients picked from the soil as well as possible duplication, often called procreation.

And similar to what happens in all of evolution, its not a "conscious' action taken: for instance there are things that us humans are born with that we never use, called vestigial Organs.

http://www.creationinthecrossfire.com/Articles/VestigialOrgans.html

Do you believe we as humans had made conscious decisions to no longer use these organs?
If you do, please show me the minutes of that (those) meetings, because I've never heard of them in my schools, but then again, I wasn't home-schooled.


Did plants "FEEL" a need for a brain?

 no, you're using your imagination again, and getting it wrong, again.


Without a brain they couldn't "think" they needed a brain! So did in fact "feelings" create the brain? with no stored knowledge on how to do so ? And where would the motivation come from required to keep trying over and over 1 million times until the actual thinking process started? it certainly didn't get it right the first time.Meditate on that for a minute... seems absurd don't it?

 again, your a fail when it comes to imagination, but are A++ for story telling.


So what IS this "it"; this consciousness, this motivation, that propelled Clay to want to move?
From a consciousness of "all" to a consciousness of "individual"? it seems as though from your description of evolution. Wouldn't The individual consciousness soon evolve out of evolution Process? So did the brain take over control from the conscience? Then why hasn't the brain kept any record of its own creation? Each time a brain is born it is a blank slate.
A baby bird doesn't "know" he can fly. And mama bird shows she cannot communicate the process of flight. When she physically pushes baby out of the nest. The human baby doesn't know it needs to eat to sustain life. When a baby is hungry he "feels" unpleasant. And becomes angry and cries. When he is fed he becomes calm and happy.

 wow... this pointless exercise of mine has truly taken a turn for the worse. Are you hungry by any chance?

I CONCLUDE THE BRAIN IS STUPID ! Even though it is the most complex sophisticated creation in the universe. And the idea that clay scrambled itself so many times without motivation to produce a brain is even stupider!!!!!!

So I ask you JINGY ,, where is the stored consciousness that provides all the information
For the "fight or flight" motivation to propel matter for success ???????

I KNOW NONE OF YOU CAN PROVIDE A LOGICAL ANSWER. THIS IS MY POINT PRECISELY !!!
 how does that old saying go….ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer?

In this instance, I may have asked a really stupid question, and have truly received the most illogical and stupid answer ever conceived…

(See, now I remember why I come to the conclusion that blubagger was a pointless discussion waiting to happen.


I am merely asking you to meditate on it ........

Jus Meditate'in
BB

 is this the real results of blubagger "meditations"? Really?


I have an idea. There are many different avenues to take to get to the answers you seek, but honestly the best explanation of evolution I have heard (I often listen to podcasts) is from a podcast I heard.
Dogma Debate with David Smalley show #30 - Evolution Explained - Rachel Brown is live in studio to discuss the details of evolution, and answer a list of 'impossible' questions sent by a Christian listener.
You can go to this website:
http://www.dogmadebate.com - click on "podcasts"

http://www.spreaker.com/show/dogma_debate_with_david_smalley - click on "more episodes" link at the bottom of the list of shows until you get the #30 show showing. Click "Play" and listen to the entire show….

Honest, you need to download and listen to this single show in order to answer many of your questions about evolution and how it works.

Good night, and don't be surprised if you get no response to your imaginary questions in the future.


 Defending your statements would be ridiculous based on your statements being factually inaccurate and grossly suggestive in many ways. Therefore, I do not attempt to answer them, rather, I point out how pathetic your thinking is at its base.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 18, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness. 3 Because of this he is required as for the people, so also for himself, to offer sacrifices for sins. 4 And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”

6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
MH2

climber
Nov 18, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
Of the viewpoints expressed on this thread, Roger Penrose sides with Werner:

"As we open our newspapers or watch our television screens, we seem to be continually assaulted by the fruits of Mankind's stupidity."


Shadows of the Mind
A Search for the Missing Science of Consciousness
Roger Penrose
Oxford University Press, 1994, p. 8
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Nov 18, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
Theists: does your god have mass?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 18, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:
My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.

3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”

7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

8 Woe to those who join house to house;
They add field to field,
Till there is no place
Where they may dwell alone in the midst of the land!
9 In my hearing the Lord of hosts said,
“Truly, many houses shall be desolate,
Great and beautiful ones, without inhabitant.
10 For ten acres of vineyard shall yield one bath,
And a homer of seed shall yield one ephah.”

11 Woe to those who rise early in the morning,
That they may follow intoxicating drink;
Who continue until night, till wine inflames them!
12 The harp and the strings,
The tambourine and flute,
And wine are in their feasts;
But they do not regard the work of the Lord,
Nor consider the operation of His hands.

13 Therefore my people have gone into captivity,
Because they have no knowledge;
Their honorable men are famished,
And their multitude dried up with thirst.
14 Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself
And opened its mouth beyond measure;
Their glory and their multitude and their pomp,
And he who is jubilant, shall descend into it.
15 People shall be brought down,
Each man shall be humbled,
And the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled.
16 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment,
And God who is holy shall be hallowed in righteousness.
17 Then the lambs shall feed in their pasture,
And in the waste places of the fat ones strangers shall eat.

18 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of vanity,
And sin as if with a cart rope;
19 That say, “Let Him make speed and hasten His work,
That we may see it;
And let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come,
That we may know it.”

20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
And prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe to men mighty at drinking wine,
Woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink,
23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe,
And take away justice from the righteous man!

24 Therefore, as the fire devours the stubble,
And the flame consumes the chaff,
So their root will be as rottenness,
And their blossom will ascend like dust;
Because they have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts,
And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore the anger of the Lord is aroused against His people;
He has stretched out His hand against them
And stricken them,
And the hills trembled.
Their carcasses were as refuse in the midst of the streets.

For all this His anger is not turned away,
But His hand is stretched out still.

26 He will lift up a banner to the nations from afar,
And will whistle to them from the end of the earth;
Surely they shall come with speed, swiftly.
27 No one will be weary or stumble among them,
No one will slumber or sleep;
Nor will the belt on their loins be loosed,
Nor the strap of their sandals be broken;
28 Whose arrows are sharp,
And all their bows bent;
Their horses’ hooves will seem like flint,
And their wheels like a whirlwind.
29 Their roaring will be like a lion,
They will roar like young lions;
Yes, they will roar
And lay hold of the prey;
They will carry it away safely,
And no one will deliver.
30 In that day they will roar against them
Like the roaring of the sea.
And if one looks to the land,
Behold, darkness and sorrow;
And the light is darkened by the clouds.

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”

4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 So I said:

“Woe is me, for I am undone!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King,
The Lord of hosts.”

6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth with it, and said:

“Behold, this has touched your lips;
Your iniquity is taken away,
And your sin purged.”

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying:

“Whom shall I send,
And who will go for Us?”

Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”

9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

10 “Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?”

And He answered:

“Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant,
The houses are without a man,
The land is utterly desolate,
12 The Lord has removed men far away,
And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
13 But yet a tenth will be in it,
And will return and be for consuming,
As a terebinth tree or as an oak,
Whose stump remains when it is cut down.
So the holy seed shall be its stump.”

Sounds like today? We receive grace from God through Jesus Christ!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 18, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
blublocr-

I agree with your sentiments about changing consciousness before you can change matter.

I've been wrestling with this idea for almost 40 years in Nepal. It's not easy to change centuries of tradition, particularly in an illiterate society. Talking about free enterprise capitalism and democratic responsibilities to people at the bottom of society who can't even figure out if eggs are 1 ruppee 25 paise, how much they should be paid for two eggs, is utterly useless. To change, people need hope and that takes a new consciousness.

Interestingly in Nepal, the two main ideas that are changing people are Christianity and Marxism. By having two contradictory idealogies compete, people start thinking along new lines. The people in power of course favor tradition. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out. Things move so slowly there, I doubt I will live long enough to see the outcome.



Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 18, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
Donald-

Mao came from a middle peasant family. He was definitely not gentry. That's why he could still speak the language of the peasants. He got his Marxist ideas from reading which he was lucky enough to know how to do thanks to not being a desperately poor peasant. His genius was in reorienting Chinese Marxism to the peasants away from the factory based proletariat of European Marxist theory.

The leaders of revolutions never come from the lowest strata of society. Chou En Lai and Ho Chi Minh were both students at the Sorbonne. Compared to them, Mao was definitely a peasant and many of the huge mistakes he made came from that peasant's mentality and the fact he never traveled outside of China except to the Soviet Union. Even the leaders of North Korea travel to the outside world.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 19, 2012 - 04:51am PT
go-B
I was gonna say;
"I always thought Hebrews should be at the end of the new testament. Before revelation.
Because I always felt like it finalized my Christian belief....

But after reading that of Isaiah; [who is a better poet?]
He wrote this how many centuries before Jesus?
His prophecies of his time, till the time of Jesus, until this day. Seem eternal........
Through his consciousness, his ability to predict the future. Only make his words seem poetic to the future generations. Which should gain his worth at the end of the Bible.

I can't even tell you how deep those verses just resonated in the depths of my soul at this time.....
Thanks again
MS
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Nov 19, 2012 - 07:10am PT
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