Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 12881 - 12900 of total 22753 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 27, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Gobee!

HE'S BACK!


welcome Gobee, I missed you


keep them coming, buddy
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 27, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Mar 27, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
Don Paul wrote:
You may be able to imagine a steady state of happiness, but it's not physiologically possible.


Yeah, the research that you refer to is exactly what I was talking about. I am not up to date on it, but I think there is a fair bit of that type of research out there. Climbing though, is a perfect example of how the typical ideas of happiness don't work. Suffering should cause misery, right? But, instead we go out and deliberately suffer and struggle up unfeeling rocks and are pretty happy about it. And,our happiness has no relationship to how good of a climber we are. As far as I can tell, 5.11 climbers are no happier than 5.4 climbers. In fact, when I was first climbing 5.5s and 5.6s, I would be buzzing for a week after each day of climbing. By the time I had put enough time in to be able to climb 5.8, I would be happy and excited for a whole day after a good climb. Later, I might be excited for an hour or two after a good climb. Now, by the time I am clipping in or lowering off, I am already thinking about other things. It is just the way we work. We have to keep finding our pleasures in new things or in new ways of looking and experiencing old things. I still find climbing very pleasurable, but it is in little things, the quality of certain movements, changes in my own awareness of my body and balance and movement. The difficulty of my climbs is just an interesting side effect of the changes in my understanding of movement. Struggling with a movement problem and then maybe getting a sense of a new way of moving; that is exciting.

We tend to think that happiness comes when we overcome our problems or have no problems or have eliminated our problems. But in rock climbing when we get to the top, it means the fun is over. There is a nice release of tension and a bit of exultation, but it is temporary and is only there because of the effort we put into the problem. If we did not have the problem to begin with, we would be bored stiff. So maybe happiness is only possible because we have problems to try and solve?

So, to throw in some support for science after all my anecdotal evidence and speculation. The scientist thinks; "Hmm, I wonder if there is a way to test this speculation to make it more clear, one way or another?"


jstan

climber
Mar 27, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Humans are like an AC coupled amplifier. If the input voltage is not varying in time, you get zero output. Same thing with pleasure, happiness and most other things. If you don't realize happiness is a decision and not a state or perception, it can continue only if something is continually getting better.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 27, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Don Paul posted

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

1 Samuel 15:3 (King James Bible, Cambridge Ed.)


Don, you are kind of new on this thread, not a bad thing but just a word to let you know that way back in early postings the really bad bible stuff was "discussed"

and the general consensus on the part of the bible folks was to ignore and move on

and when pressed further, the bible people dismissed that gruesome language with the understanding that that was the way God had to talk to the people of 2000 years ago, he had to "speak their language"

I never understood this, why couldn't god just have been clear and told people not to do that shit
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 27, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
Good, Emotions it's about time! Literally.
Now these suckers could cause a radioactive Adam to decay before his day.

Emotions seem to be 1of 2 breeds.
You can think about what it takes to be Happy. The Probability of Happiness is assured if;
our actions are completed in a fashion that measures upto the Brains predescribed map.

IF from our thoughts, we achive what we set out to do.

Happiness arises from our achievements. Achievements arise from our thoughts.
Our thoughts arise from our Breathe. (More on that later).


If Happiness is one. Then think about Joyfulness as two.
Can you think your way to being Joyful? "Happiness" and "Joyfulness", the words. Are two symbols of two different emotional Feelings. how would you describe the difference between the two? Can your brain draw a map to Joyfulness?

If Happiness is a "state" of Mind. Could Joyfullness be a "state" of conscienceness ?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 27, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
Sure. Or delusion, that works too.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 27, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
HOW DID THEY KNOW?




'Elephant Whisperer' Lawrence Anthony
'Elephant Whisperer' Lawrence Anthony
Credit: TomCochrane

When African conservationist Lawrence Anthony saved a herd of endangered elephants by inviting them to roam his game reserve in 1999, he couldn’t have imagined the extent of their devotion and gratitude. When Anthony passed away this year in March, his pachyderm pals spontaneously lined up behind the fence at his house and rocked from side to side in a show of respect.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/filmhound/2012/10/24/elephants-mourn-human-friend-lawrence-anthony/

For 12 hours, two herds of wild South African elephants slowly made their way through the Zululand bush until they reached the house of late author Lawrence Anthony, the conservationist who saved their lives. The formerly violent, rogue elephants, destined to be shot a few years ago as pests, were rescued and rehabilitated by Anthony, who had grown up in the bush and was known as the “Elephant Whisperer.”

For two days the herds loitered at Anthony’s rural compound on the vast Thula Thula game reserve in the South African KwaZulu – to say good-bye to the man they loved. But how did they know he had died? Known for his unique ability to calm traumatized elephants, Anthony had become a legend. He is the author of three books, Babylon Ark, detailing his efforts to rescue the animals at Baghdad Zoo during the Iraqi war, the forthcoming The Last Rhinos, and his bestselling The Elephant Whisperer.

There are two elephant herds at Thula Thula. According to his son Dylan, both arrived at the Anthony family compound shortly after Anthony’s death.“They had not visited the house for a year and a half and it must have taken them about 12 hours to make the journey,” Dylan is quoted in various local news accounts. “The first herd arrived on Sunday and the second herd, a day later. They all hung around for about two days before making their way back into the bush.” Elephants have long been known to mourn their dead. In India, baby elephants often are raised with a boy who will be their lifelong “mahout.” The pair develop legendary bonds – and it is not uncommon for one to waste away without a will to live after the death of the other.

http://delightmakers.com/news/wild-elephants-gather-inexplicably-mourn-death-of-elephant-whisperer/



(Werner is right...some of you 'brilliant' people are thinking idiotically in trying to reduce everything to outdated superstitious materialistic viewpoints...the thread title, rather than promoting enlightened discourse, simply labels four aspects of bigotry...it's time to grow up past that...)



wake up and smell the cactus flowers
MH2

climber
Mar 27, 2013 - 10:57pm PT


Instruments detect objective functioning, the firing of neurons and so forth. There is noting in that activity that suggests you are smelling a rose or hearing a siren.


What makes you think that? Are you so sure of the validity of Leibniz' thought experiment? If we did fMRI on a person and compared brain activity during smelling a rose versus hearing a siren, are you saying we could not tell the difference?

Your subjective experience is the result of cells talking to other cells. For an instructive example look at the Mauthner neuron and its role in the escape reflex in bony fishes. Your experience has a physical correlate but your consciousness has no need to be advised of all the details.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 27, 2013 - 11:17pm PT
Elephants clearly lead rich cognitive and emotional lives. and they're not the only ones.

I think I could turn and live with the animals, they are so placid and self contained;
I stand and look at them long and long.
They do not sweat and whine about their condition;
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins;
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God;
Not one is dissatisfied-not one is demented with the mania of owning things;
Not one kneels to another, nor his kind that lived thousands of years ago;
Not one is responsible or industrious over the whole earth.
-W. Whitman
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 28, 2013 - 12:05am PT
Credit: TomCochrane


Are you convinced that your own consciousness is merely a phenomena arising from electro-chemical activity in a meat brain?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:19am PT
^^^^^ No! Visa-Versa

"arising", instead could we use "creating"?

How would have the meat of the Earth "arise" something before there was life on the planet?
Or even today for that matter? Just through the mixing, and heating or cooling of matter(things)?
Isn't that all science does? dig up materials, mix'em, heat or cool em. From which arises
Metals, Plastics, Combustibles, etc. Then conscienceness says create an iPhone.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 28, 2013 - 09:31am PT
hmm... Lets say I turn off my computer monitor. How would I know what programs are still running on the computer? I'm pretty sure they're still running. There are electrical signals running through all the microchips, there must be something going on, I just can't decode it. It's not a perfect analogy since the computer is not conscious. This reminds me of a weird TED talk:

MH2

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 12:12pm PT

Are you convinced that your own consciousness is merely a phenomena arising from electro-chemical activity in a meat brain?



My consciousness enjoys a donut now and then and it keeps me from stepping in front of moving cars when I cross the street. It doesn't seem to require much attention from me and I don't worry about what kind of phenomenon it is.


By contrast, I find that electro-chemical activity in a meat brain is endlessly fascinating. It has a history going back 500 million years. Who can say what it can't do? Even a 3-cell reflex can show wonderful plasticity and adaptability to the uncertain conditions an organism may encounter in its environment.


http://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S0896-6273(05)00466-6


BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 28, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
Go-B!!!!!

Don't get upset and split again. I know that what you are doing is part of your faith. It causes no harm, and when some jerk comes on and gives you crap, blow it off. It shouldn't affect your feelings.

This is where I go off on Militant Atheism again. Dr. F. and a couple of others go out of their way to speak out against God, but for me it is quite different.

As long as you are OK, then by all means hang out. Since I have never seen Go-B go off and flame anyone, then he is a good neighbor.

His faith tells him to spread the word of God, even if most of us don't read it simply because it takes too long.

Back to the Bible. When I read Leviticus in the Oncologist waiting area (A good place to troll for souls), it was because I knew that the book was the one that upsets everyone over male homosexuality.

There are so many whacky rules in there that it is almost funny. The old testament God is a pretty mean guy. I recommend everyone to take a look at the second half of Leviticus, because it is full of wild rules that God told Moses. Way more than just the ten commandments. There are probably 200 other commandments along with the sentence.

I saw that it talked about man laying with man, but it didn't mention female laying with female, and Leviticus is extremely precise.

So Lesbians have it made.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 28, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Since all animals have a brain, and the larger ones share anatomical similarities to our brains, I think that makes for a pretty good guess that intelligence is the result of anatomy.

It is emergent. We can look at a spectrum of animals leading to us.

I see no reason to think that humans are special, in a strict anatomical respect. Sure, we have become smarter as a group, but that is the result of language.

Language is very important. I've said it a hundred times, but think about why we seem more intelligent than all other animals.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 28, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
Base said about Gobee

This is where I go off on Militant Atheism again. Dr. F. and a couple of others go out of their way to speak out against God, but for me it is quite different.

As long as you are OK, then by all means hang out. Since I have never seen Go-B go off and flame anyone, then he is a good neighbor.

His faith tells him to spread the word of God, even if most of us don't read it simply because it takes too long.

what, since when did Gobee leave again?

He just posted some nice bible verses the other day and I warmly welcomed him back.

I must have missed the flame, who went after Gobee since then?
jstan

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
Don't get upset and split again. I know that what you are doing is part of your faith. It causes no harm, and when some jerk comes on and gives you crap, blow it off. It shouldn't affect your feelings.

Norton:
It was me. I said "Please spare us."

Base:
For more than 60 years that was the way it was for me also. But then people started trying to make laws forcing me to live the way they say I should live. In some cases when they themselves don't live the way they say I should live. I decided it was time to push back.

I do still have that decision. Don't I? Or did we all start pushing back too late?

It was much better when Go-Bee started speaking his own mind.

I actually read that. I'd love to hear more from him about Cape Breton. A wild and challenging place.



In the late fifties I drove to the cape to attend a school but the lady told me the teacher from Scotland would be a week late. I said, "What is there for me to do in the meantime?"

She replied, "You can swim in the ocean."

I asked, "What temperature is it?"

43 degrees was her reply.
WBraun

climber
Mar 28, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
I find that electro-chemical activity in a meat brain is endlessly fascinating. It has a history going back 500 million years. Who can say what it can't do?

It can't save you from birth, death, disease, and old age.

It absolutely can't do anything without you (the soul) first.

In other words ..... it completely depends on the living entity itself (soul) to operate.

If the soul is not existent in the body then the body is "dead" by modern medical definition.

Therefore it's useless unless you are there to begin with.

Therefore modern science ultimately is in poor fund of knowledge only studying the machine and not the operator of the machine.

Without the operator of the machine, the machine is useless, as we can see when a dead body is immediately discarded ......

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 28, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Yea Base, I miss go-B also!
I'm sorry you don't have an understanding in the differences between
the OT and the New Testament. Between Law and Grace.
The OT (Law) was only a shadow of the things to come. The only people today
that live by the OT rules are the Jews. Since the sacrifice of Jesus and the NT we are no longer held accountable to the OT law.

So forget about Leviticus. Try Romans 1, specifically 25-32. Here he talks about men with men and women. here Paul paints a spiritual picture of why sexual perversion is against
Nature. And how it harms society's.

Read the book of Romans you'll think it was written about America.
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