Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 13901 - 13920 of total 22767 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 27, 2013 - 07:41am PT
then on what grounds can we claim a bottom-up reductionistic model as valid?

by predicting the outcome of an experiment, observation or measurement. One tries many different approaches to that prediction, some work, most do not... you keep nibbling away at the edges, sometimes you get big chunks...

...the basic premise is that a physical observable has a physical cause. Pretty simple.

Maybe you use some hoity-toity emergent theory, or just get down and dirty in the bits... it doesn't matter as long as you are able to predict...


It took me all this time to get you to say that.

Now that you have, we can proceed. A "cause" by any definition is an event in space and time. Such events and causes flow forward through time, the theory goes, meaning some future event does not create anything in the present.

Now if we were to get "down and dirty in the bits," your definition above implies that during an experiment, the string of causes/events, flowing forward in time, are connected to each other? That is, one physical event or experimental outcome is connected to a prior one, and that if we know the one at the bottom, we can reason forward and predict the outcome. This would be true even if we were using a "map" that did not correspond one-to-one to reality - isn't this what you are saying? But the string of causes, from the bottom up, that are posited on your map are connected one to the other, at least in theory.

Now if this were not the case, "things" arising in the universe would need not have an antecedent or prior cause. They would literally emerge out of "nothing," much as Craig would have us believe that DNA basically invented itself out of nothing at all - but it just took a long-ass time.

My point here is we run into problems if we try and have it both ways. If as Ed is saying, an observable "thing" has a physical cause, with no exception, there we know as much only through something's connectedness to that cause. Ed threw the ball; BASE (Mark) caught it. If a "cause" is NOT connected to th4e emergence of a physical thing, "cause" becomes a meaningless word.

Also, and we went over this already, what you are talking about with "space" (and my lack of understanding same) are is not void or total lack of thingness, that was being argued recently at a conference mentioned on this thread. You refer to stuff like quantum fields and potentialities existing within a true void, which is neither a background or a foreground, but is the entire lack of "ground." Our rational minds cannot get hold of "no-thingness." So our minds focus on the stuff we can grab onto and label.

As I said earlier, you can look at physical reality and never see this void, just as you can look at a brain and never, in 1,000,000 "see" subjective experience. But we know it is there. And that's amazing.

What generates every thing in the first place, or the search for first ("efficient") causes, is an even bigger playing field.

JL
MH2

climber
Mar 27, 2013 - 09:18am PT

you can look at physical reality and never see this void


If the void is real and has a role to play in physical reality why could it not be detected?


you can look at a brain and never, in 1,000,000 "see" subjective experience


If subjective experience is connected to brain activity why could it not be detected by instruments?


Remember that not too long ago we did not know that we are made up of cells.
WBraun

climber
Mar 27, 2013 - 09:50am PT
If the void is real and has a role to play in physical reality why could it not be detected?

Because it's only detected thru the soul.

I keep stressing that we are not are our material bodies.

Yet material science has an authoritarian grip and hard fixed anchor on the fundamental defect that is rooted in gross materialism.

That is their root dogmatic consciousness that prevents them from going forward.

They are dumbfounded and stuck even though they keep discovering more about the material world it's still ultimately only material that they are discovering.

Their tools are not the right tools for what their really looking for .....
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 27, 2013 - 10:53am PT

you can look at a brain and never, in 1,000,000 "see" subjective experience


If subjective experience is connected to brain activity why could it not be detected by instruments?


This comes from an old thought experiment form Liebnitz. Instruments detect objective functioning, the firing of neurons and so forth. There is noting in that activity that suggests you are smelling a rose or hearing a siren. Scientists don't normally insist that one discrete thing is in fact something else. That's why saying that subjectivity IS objectivity is the very essence of science fiction.

And like I said, just note how the rational mind cannot grasp no thing, or true void. The brain can only grock onto some quality, ergo we keep trying to make void into a thing we can detect.

JL

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Mar 27, 2013 - 11:01am PT
As Easter approaches my hope is the you come to a saving knowledge in our Lord Jesus Christ, and that you can forgive me this cut-n-past!

And that you would but take the time to read this short intro and first chapter into the Gosple of John, from the book of edited messages of Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee, radio program http://www.ttb.org/...


Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Thru The Bible, by J. Vernon McGee
Credit: go-B


Before I go back into the cyber wilderness, the Real Voice is not on TV, but from God...

John 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
jstan

climber
Mar 27, 2013 - 11:07am PT
Spare us, please.

On the Uses of Subjective Experience

It has none.


When I began studying physics we used voltmeters with a little mirror across the face and behind the needle. It was there so one could line up the needle with its image thereby assuring the observer's line of sight was normal to the instrument. This was done because errors in subjective experience can occur. If the meter with the needed sensitivity was not available you could also have three people repeat a series of readings in random order and then check to make sure all three sets had very similar averages. Why? To get subjective experience the hell out of the experiment.

None of the values read will be identical because no two persons will have the same subjective experience even under identical stimuli.

Granted subjective experience can be a trip. Indeed, perhaps we should consider subjective experience to be just another form of tripping. We can indulge in this and perhaps even enjoy it.
But once it is over

have you got anything useful in the real world?

When small I had the job of fixing small engines. I learned nature is very unforgiving. I was successful only when I got the engine to run reliably. It is easy to pretend you have succeeded.

But until I heard the engine running, I had failed.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 27, 2013 - 11:15am PT
Sure - lets compare Bible notes!

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

1 Samuel 15:3 (King James Bible, Cambridge Ed.)

And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until you come to Shur, that is over against Egypt. And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatted calves, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

15:7-15:9.

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD your God does give you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes:

Deuteronomy 20:16

And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.

Joshua 6:17

It goes on and on like this ...
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 27, 2013 - 11:25am PT
Gobee!

HE'S BACK!


welcome Gobee, I missed you


keep them coming, buddy
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 27, 2013 - 11:26am PT
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Mar 27, 2013 - 11:43am PT
Don Paul wrote:
You may be able to imagine a steady state of happiness, but it's not physiologically possible.


Yeah, the research that you refer to is exactly what I was talking about. I am not up to date on it, but I think there is a fair bit of that type of research out there. Climbing though, is a perfect example of how the typical ideas of happiness don't work. Suffering should cause misery, right? But, instead we go out and deliberately suffer and struggle up unfeeling rocks and are pretty happy about it. And,our happiness has no relationship to how good of a climber we are. As far as I can tell, 5.11 climbers are no happier than 5.4 climbers. In fact, when I was first climbing 5.5s and 5.6s, I would be buzzing for a week after each day of climbing. By the time I had put enough time in to be able to climb 5.8, I would be happy and excited for a whole day after a good climb. Later, I might be excited for an hour or two after a good climb. Now, by the time I am clipping in or lowering off, I am already thinking about other things. It is just the way we work. We have to keep finding our pleasures in new things or in new ways of looking and experiencing old things. I still find climbing very pleasurable, but it is in little things, the quality of certain movements, changes in my own awareness of my body and balance and movement. The difficulty of my climbs is just an interesting side effect of the changes in my understanding of movement. Struggling with a movement problem and then maybe getting a sense of a new way of moving; that is exciting.

We tend to think that happiness comes when we overcome our problems or have no problems or have eliminated our problems. But in rock climbing when we get to the top, it means the fun is over. There is a nice release of tension and a bit of exultation, but it is temporary and is only there because of the effort we put into the problem. If we did not have the problem to begin with, we would be bored stiff. So maybe happiness is only possible because we have problems to try and solve?

So, to throw in some support for science after all my anecdotal evidence and speculation. The scientist thinks; "Hmm, I wonder if there is a way to test this speculation to make it more clear, one way or another?"


jstan

climber
Mar 27, 2013 - 11:53am PT
Humans are like an AC coupled amplifier. If the input voltage is not varying in time, you get zero output. Same thing with pleasure, happiness and most other things. If you don't realize happiness is a decision and not a state or perception, it can continue only if something is continually getting better.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 27, 2013 - 11:53am PT
Don Paul posted

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

1 Samuel 15:3 (King James Bible, Cambridge Ed.)


Don, you are kind of new on this thread, not a bad thing but just a word to let you know that way back in early postings the really bad bible stuff was "discussed"

and the general consensus on the part of the bible folks was to ignore and move on

and when pressed further, the bible people dismissed that gruesome language with the understanding that that was the way God had to talk to the people of 2000 years ago, he had to "speak their language"

I never understood this, why couldn't god just have been clear and told people not to do that shit
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 27, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
Good, Emotions it's about time! Literally.
Now these suckers could cause a radioactive Adam to decay before his day.

Emotions seem to be 1of 2 breeds.
You can think about what it takes to be Happy. The Probability of Happiness is assured if;
our actions are completed in a fashion that measures upto the Brains predescribed map.

IF from our thoughts, we achive what we set out to do.

Happiness arises from our achievements. Achievements arise from our thoughts.
Our thoughts arise from our Breathe. (More on that later).


If Happiness is one. Then think about Joyfulness as two.
Can you think your way to being Joyful? "Happiness" and "Joyfulness", the words. Are two symbols of two different emotional Feelings. how would you describe the difference between the two? Can your brain draw a map to Joyfulness?

If Happiness is a "state" of Mind. Could Joyfullness be a "state" of conscienceness ?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 27, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
Sure. Or delusion, that works too.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 27, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
HOW DID THEY KNOW?




'Elephant Whisperer' Lawrence Anthony
'Elephant Whisperer' Lawrence Anthony
Credit: TomCochrane

When African conservationist Lawrence Anthony saved a herd of endangered elephants by inviting them to roam his game reserve in 1999, he couldn’t have imagined the extent of their devotion and gratitude. When Anthony passed away this year in March, his pachyderm pals spontaneously lined up behind the fence at his house and rocked from side to side in a show of respect.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/filmhound/2012/10/24/elephants-mourn-human-friend-lawrence-anthony/

For 12 hours, two herds of wild South African elephants slowly made their way through the Zululand bush until they reached the house of late author Lawrence Anthony, the conservationist who saved their lives. The formerly violent, rogue elephants, destined to be shot a few years ago as pests, were rescued and rehabilitated by Anthony, who had grown up in the bush and was known as the “Elephant Whisperer.”

For two days the herds loitered at Anthony’s rural compound on the vast Thula Thula game reserve in the South African KwaZulu – to say good-bye to the man they loved. But how did they know he had died? Known for his unique ability to calm traumatized elephants, Anthony had become a legend. He is the author of three books, Babylon Ark, detailing his efforts to rescue the animals at Baghdad Zoo during the Iraqi war, the forthcoming The Last Rhinos, and his bestselling The Elephant Whisperer.

There are two elephant herds at Thula Thula. According to his son Dylan, both arrived at the Anthony family compound shortly after Anthony’s death.“They had not visited the house for a year and a half and it must have taken them about 12 hours to make the journey,” Dylan is quoted in various local news accounts. “The first herd arrived on Sunday and the second herd, a day later. They all hung around for about two days before making their way back into the bush.” Elephants have long been known to mourn their dead. In India, baby elephants often are raised with a boy who will be their lifelong “mahout.” The pair develop legendary bonds – and it is not uncommon for one to waste away without a will to live after the death of the other.

http://delightmakers.com/news/wild-elephants-gather-inexplicably-mourn-death-of-elephant-whisperer/



(Werner is right...some of you 'brilliant' people are thinking idiotically in trying to reduce everything to outdated superstitious materialistic viewpoints...the thread title, rather than promoting enlightened discourse, simply labels four aspects of bigotry...it's time to grow up past that...)



wake up and smell the cactus flowers
MH2

climber
Mar 27, 2013 - 07:57pm PT


Instruments detect objective functioning, the firing of neurons and so forth. There is noting in that activity that suggests you are smelling a rose or hearing a siren.


What makes you think that? Are you so sure of the validity of Leibniz' thought experiment? If we did fMRI on a person and compared brain activity during smelling a rose versus hearing a siren, are you saying we could not tell the difference?

Your subjective experience is the result of cells talking to other cells. For an instructive example look at the Mauthner neuron and its role in the escape reflex in bony fishes. Your experience has a physical correlate but your consciousness has no need to be advised of all the details.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 27, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
Elephants clearly lead rich cognitive and emotional lives. and they're not the only ones.

I think I could turn and live with the animals, they are so placid and self contained;
I stand and look at them long and long.
They do not sweat and whine about their condition;
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins;
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God;
Not one is dissatisfied-not one is demented with the mania of owning things;
Not one kneels to another, nor his kind that lived thousands of years ago;
Not one is responsible or industrious over the whole earth.
-W. Whitman
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 27, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
Credit: TomCochrane


Are you convinced that your own consciousness is merely a phenomena arising from electro-chemical activity in a meat brain?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 27, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
^^^^^ No! Visa-Versa

"arising", instead could we use "creating"?

How would have the meat of the Earth "arise" something before there was life on the planet?
Or even today for that matter? Just through the mixing, and heating or cooling of matter(things)?
Isn't that all science does? dig up materials, mix'em, heat or cool em. From which arises
Metals, Plastics, Combustibles, etc. Then conscienceness says create an iPhone.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 28, 2013 - 06:31am PT
hmm... Lets say I turn off my computer monitor. How would I know what programs are still running on the computer? I'm pretty sure they're still running. There are electrical signals running through all the microchips, there must be something going on, I just can't decode it. It's not a perfect analogy since the computer is not conscious. This reminds me of a weird TED talk:

Messages 13901 - 13920 of total 22767 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews