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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 17, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
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OK, so I'm minding my own bisuness, walking around the corner after having gone to pee and this dog f'n comes at me and tries to grab my arm. I push back into it's mouth, effectively getting the dog off of me and out of my way, and the dayumned thing starts growling and chomping at me (riling up another dog owned by the same person) then jumps and gets me in the side. I knee the dog off, but the thing freakin' broke skin!! WTF?!?!
Several people saw the incident, the owner actually did ask me if I was ok and offered compensation if anything developed, but did not leash the dog afterwards. Again, WTF?!?!?!?
The GOOD news is that I"m not nearly as muscled up and in shape as I used to be, so all the dog got was a mouth full of love-handle-side-fat and a knee in the chest.
I'm all about having my dog at the crag but DAYUMN. Just DAUYMN.
And for the record, Abby was NOT there yesterday. She's a 20 lb, 11 year old dog who's much happier at home these days...
Come ON, people, if you know your dog has a history of aggression, PLEASE be responsible and leave your dog at home!!!! I honestly don't care if your dog's friendly 90 or 95% of the time, think about the potential repercussions of the other 5 or 10 percent, K???? And what of the kids, adults and other animals out there: what if it had been one of them rather than an outa-shape-40-year-old-used-ta-be-has-been??
THINK, folks; act responsibly, PLEASE, and implore your friends to do the same!!!!
Thanks,
bb
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
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yikes, that sucks. Sorry to hear that. Hopefully you mend quickly...
Very frustrating dealing with nuisance dogs, and potentially dangerous...glad it was nothing worse.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
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Dogs at the crags are wrongy. Should have punched the dog hard in the face, then waited for the owner. Ive had too many run-ins like this, to the point that I couldnt get to my gear at the base until the owner showed back up. Snarling little sh#t wouldnt let me anywhere near my pack and the owner wouldnt hear any of it. I called him out on a discussion, away from his dog, but he declined.
Leave fido at home or station him away from the base. Nobody loves your loud, obnoxious, overprotective, pissing and shitting dog but you.
Owners are usually the last to accept that their stupid dog has any aggression in them, since it happens when they arent around. If the owners will not handle it, I will, with or without necessary physical defensive means.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
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That is super f*#ked up.
Most people know their dogs, and know if they're 'biters'. The owner is the as#@&%e here. Sorry about that BB.
Super f*#ked up...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
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Typical of everything, nut just dogs. Some as#@&%e causes a problem. Then the knee jerkers want it banned outright.
The problem is dogs left unattended, not dogs at the crags.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
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Hey BB,
This dog should be reported. If it continually happens the owner should be held accountable.
Reporting it might seem like a dik move, but it seems like the responsible thing to do.
Prod.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:32pm PT
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I've found that problem dogs usually have problem owners.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
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SUE!!
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:48pm PT
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Leave fido at home or station him away from the base. Nobody loves your loud, obnoxious, overprotective, pissing and shitting dog but you.
As is always the case, this applies to a number of CLIMBERS I see at the crags these days as well. All boils down to the same thing: idiot people.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
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I love dogs. I love their companionship.
I am generally psyched to see dogs at the crag.
BUT
Some dogs flat-out do Not belong at the crag, or at the very least need to be tied up (two seperate categories). Their owners know who they are, even if they are in denial.
Somehow those dog owners need to be held accountable.
Hope your punctures heal well and quickly, BB!
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
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I've been bit by one dog, and that was at Tahquitz. It was unleashed, and the owners were climbing/belaying. I'm hoping that the vet bills, after I smashed it in the head with my helmet, makes the owners think twice about bringing that thing to the crag again. In retrospect, I should have chewed out the owners for a while, but I was rather distracted because the dog wanted to keep attacking and my calf hurt like hell...
Don't bring problem dogs to the crag, please.
Josh
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jan 17, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
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I think part of the problem is that some climbers feel guilty going climbing all day and leaving their dog cooped up at home. So they bring their dog to the crag out of their own guilt feelings and not because the dog actually wants to be there at the crag.
Bruce
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jan 17, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
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Just went on a trail run with my dogs- going cragging later without them. Neither have ever been rock climbing and they never will.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
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strict liability - not compensation if 'anything develops' in California. Just sayin, check your local attorney. That oughta fix things for next time if it costs them a few thousand.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 17, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
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If somebody's dog bites me or a partner it gets shot.
Thats it. Thats all. Too bad.
Mind you, I like dogs and would rather shoot the owner, but that seems to be more problematic than effective.
Just a word to the wise if you plan on bringing an unleashed animal to the crags.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 17, 2011 - 01:59pm PT
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Those who know me know I love dogs. BITD the ex came home from school on her
bike all shook up. "A dog attacked me two blocks away. He runs behind the
wall paralleling the street and then darts out of the driveway." Roger that.
I got my 18" sawed-off broom handle that fitted my pump holder and went around
so I would be coming from the same direction. Sure enough he came chargeing
out of the driveway. When he opened his mouth 8" from my ankle I laid the
wood to top of his muzzle just below the eyes; a total fur-flinging train wreck
from which he did not arise for a good five or six seconds.
Next day I repeated to see how my behavior mod had worked. Out he came with
teeth flashing in the noonday sun except when he got about 3' from me he
locked 'em up and left skin on the asphalt.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 02:15pm PT
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I'm definitely a dog person, I've got two of my own.
I don't bring them to the crag.
However, I've been roadtripping and stopped to camp and climb in remote spots. This was when I had one dog, he'd dig a little hole to lay in and wait patiently for us to get back to the ground. I'd fill in his depression in the dirt and that was that.
Nobody else was within ten miles of us.
I think that's acceptable.
Crags, not so much.
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Jan 17, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
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We get lots of calls at the poison control center from dog owners. The pet has eaten a prescription medication, ingested rat poison, etc. Most have called their vets who for reasons unknown tell them to call us; not very sensible as we have no vet. training, information, experience, etc. and the vets do know that. The dog owners are, on average, rather impatient, borderline rude, ungrateful, and more than a little unreasonable, and this is pretty much the experience of everyone else at work. What is it with people and their dogs?
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 02:25pm PT
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What is it with people and their dogs?
A-holes are A-holes.
You have the unfortunate job of dealing with them.
The non A-hole dog owners are the ones you don't get calls from.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Jan 17, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
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Yep I agree with Mike Bolte and surprisingly Ron as well.
I have held the opinion for years...
"it's not usually the dogs, it's the people"
Piton Ron put it concisely.
I was bum rushed by a dog at a remote canyon crag as I returned to the base to fetch stashed gear. The (unleashed) dog gave no warning just bum rushed me and remained at non engagement distance but maintained a very aggressive posturing.
The (female) master yelled down from atop the first pitch something like:
"Oh don't mind him. He gets a little territorial but he's a good dog and means no harm"
B.S !
I yelled back:
"I have no problem with your dog. But I'll have a problem with you if you don't like the idea of coming back to the base of the climb and finding your sweet, un leashed, aggressive, little baby on a spit. I'm not all that well fed lately"
When in doubt/ stay out !
If you have anything less(or more) than a Golden retriever on a handful of valiums..
Be ok with and responsible for your dog's actions/(aggressions)
~~~~~~~~~~~
Who needs a gun Ron ?
They only have one 'attack' weapon/appendage.
I might get a fore arm mauled
But I might get a meal out of it as well.
What do you call a Phillipino with four black dogs?
"Rancher'
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 17, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
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I had a dog bite me as I was riding a motorcycle slowly.
I sped up.
Stopped.
Took out a .22.
Fired into the ground as the dog approached.
It stopped but continued to menace.
The owner paid for my jeans (holed and bloodied).
Mouse guns are cool, and sometimes well worth having.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 17, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
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Right on Rox...you forgot about rabies being transmitted..good reason to kill the dog before it bites you....The latest scourge are the So. Cal yuppies taking their poochs skiing with them at groomed x-country areas...Even though there are signs prohibiting dogs on groomed trail , the LA weekend warriors don't think it applies to them....it's all about me...Besides wrecking the tracks , the dogs crap leaving delightful wet piles ....I informed this guy skiing with his dog that dogs were not allowed on the trails..Of course he knows the rules better than I do and tells me that it's okay for dogs to be on the tracks.... i call him a f-ing moron...his wife goes ballistic and demands to know what i called her husband...I called her a f-ing biotch and ski away...I've been attacked several times now by leashed dogs while minding my own business...go figure?
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jan 17, 2011 - 05:25pm PT
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I took my dog to the Happies/Sads this weekend, where there were lots of people and lots of dogs. The dogs were all very well behaved. The people sure did suck though.
I never thought I would say it, but the BLM should close the Tablelands or charge for access, and regulate the mess that is Bishop Bouldering.
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Jan 17, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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Someone pointed out that the dog owners who were not unpleasant to deal with did not call us. That's a good point. However, we get a hell of a lot more people calling about themselves, their children, friends, etc. and the lage majority of them do not fit my initial description of the pet owners we talk to. Most of the pet people do.
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TC
Trad climber
Claremont, CA
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Jan 17, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
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I don't know if this would work at the crags.
On occasion, I would encounter an unleashed dog on one of my favorite bike loops. He would come after me like a bat out of hell. The next day, to discourage the monster from chasing me, I squirted him with my water bottle — filled with my urine.He never ran after me again. BTW vinegar works too.
Tony
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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I've had good experiences with dogs at crags and in the hills, and bad experiences. Many more good, or non-significant, experiences than bad ones. But some of the bad ones have been doozies - off leash dogs barking, snapping, growling, chasing me, you name it.
Not to mention the impacts such animals have on the local environment and wildlife. Though sometimes the impact is a deservedly negative one for the dog.
I've had worse experiences with dogs while cycling and running. Though a bicycle pump is pretty reasonable for self-defence, especially if you don't mind bending it. And a visible handful of rocks, and standing one's ground, tend to cause dogs to think twice. Those that can think, of course - a few dogs are even dumber than their owners.
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
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best I can do until I can get someone to take a shot from a better angle...
No punctures, just the big scrape and a really big bruise.
fecker.
I love dogs (I have a dog), but I'm glad I got a knee to it's chest. I was too stunned to do anything else, but the thought of packin' heat certainly did cross my mind more than once!! I DID throw my bear mace in my pack when I got home and I GLADLY use it on that dog when I see it again. Self defense, of course.
to discourage the monster from chasing me, I squirted him with my water bottle — filled with my urine.He never ran after me again ROTFLMA!!!
...a few dogs are even dumber than their owners. I dunno... I've known some pretty dumb animal owners...
As for potential rabies, yup, thought about that one. Of course, the owner said the dog was up on all it's shots. hmmm... ggrrrrrrrrrrrr.
OH yeah, and Jeremy, leaving Fido and/or Bowzer at home would make absolutely too much sense. WAY too logical. (maybe it's that whole guilty comscience thing that was mentioned...)
The dogs are there not of their own volition, and may or may not be happy/hungry/scared/bored/over it all/whatever, I get that. That being said, know the animal, know that it IS an animal, and be fully prepared to deal with any negative repercussions of it's actions (i.e.: getting whacked on the head with a sawed off broom handle or shot or stuck on a spit and eaten for dinner or ... The list goes on.)
Of course, there will always be those for whom the rules and regs don't apply and for whom this whole conversation will be a moot point because their animals are perfect and are friendly...
bb
oh, and Al, my name's Samantha, not Sue!! :)
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R.B.
Big Wall climber
Land of the Lahar
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Jan 17, 2011 - 06:52pm PT
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OK, here is my dog bite story.
I was walking on a trail; two hikers and an unleashed german shep. pup. are hiking towards me; I walk by the dog, as I approach it, I put my hand down, palm towards nose, and let him sniff me; Dog sniffs hand, then bites me right in the soft skin of the kneecap.
I walk about 50 feet away, and then yell at the owners (two girls) "your friggin dog just bit me in the kneecap!" They respond: "He has never bitten anyone BEFORE!" I said, well, he has NOW!
I then demanded they compensate me for my insurance deductible of $50, since I would have to go to the doctor. I needed a tetnus boster, anyways so they wipped out two $20 and gave it to me, and they apologized.
PLEASE LEAVE YOUR FIGGIN POOCH AT HOME; I would not hesitate to put down a dog right if front of its' owner if they are not responsible owners.
A RESPONSIBLE OWNER, leaves their dogs at home; I have as much right to not hear your friggin dog barking and not having it at "my crags" as you do bringing it there.
DO US ALL A FAVOR, leave Rover at HOME!
end of story
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 06:56pm PT
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A RESPONSIBLE OWNER, leaves their dogs at home
That is way too broad of a statement, and you know it.
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R.B.
Big Wall climber
Land of the Lahar
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
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Says WHO?
Leave the dog at home, or face the wrath of having them being killed in front of you if they bite someone.
What part of that don't you understand? Leave them at home!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
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Listen as#@&%e, I don't bring my dogs to the crag due to the density of climbers, it's rude and a PITA.
However, when I hike, my friendly dogs run off leash, and will until they're old and can no longer run.
You make a generalization that all dogs are bad and should be kept in the house or the yard. Not so.
A well socialized dog has every right to run and be a dog.
Saying that all dogs should be left at home is just plain stupid.
Touch my dog as it comes up to you, tail wagging and see what happens. You'll rue the day.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
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What I'm getting at is that there are mean dogs and then there are good, well behaved dogs. I take my dogs out and about because they fall into the latter category. You seem to be a little predisposed to disliking dogs, I'm sorry for you.
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R.B.
Big Wall climber
Land of the Lahar
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
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Why risk it, BTW, (you called me Ahole??) really? Not very nice!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
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Risk what? Having my dogs wag there tails at you? I'll take my chances, hater.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:14pm PT
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Sorry I called you A-hole. I was being reactionary and I apologize.
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R.B.
Big Wall climber
Land of the Lahar
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:19pm PT
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Your right, I don't like dogs. That is a choice. But I and all other climbers have the right to not have to deal with your dog on public property, so you push the issue, laws get passed, dogs get outlawed.
I know people are emotional when it comes to their dogs, as a mother bear protects its cub.
Not every person (climber) likes dogs, it's just a fact. People do a disservice to their pets by puting them is situations they can't control.
There is not a "bad dog", however there are owners that are bad (not responsible)
Ricardo, I do not attack you personally over this, it is JMO.
RB
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
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Do you super tough dog killers ever think about what will happen to you if you threaten the wrong dog/dog owner? My eyesight isn't so bad yet that I can't figure out which dog is/has attacked me - assuming that there is more than one dog. Now just hand me my walker and I'll teach that mutt a lesson it'll never forget.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
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Hey stinkhole, how many times have you been bitten?
(Didn't think so.)
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
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I and all other climbers have the right to not have to deal with your dog on public property
Really? You have to deal with me as I pass you on a trail. You may not like me, but you have no grounds to complain about it. Same goes for my dog, as far as I'm concerned. You may not like him, but as long as he's not doing you any harm or harassing you, you have no grounds for complaint.
I'm guessing you're one of those city types.
Sorry about your luck
Stay at the crowded crags and I'll stay in the forest.
Edit, Ron, I'm not Stinkhole, but I've been bitten a few times by A-hole dogs and they got the living daylights beat out of them.
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R.B.
Big Wall climber
Land of the Lahar
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
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I regularly hike on trails with leash laws, I see about 1 out of 10 dog owners complying, it's just the facts. Fortunately, I have not been bitten more than once, but I will not be so civil about it next time. So bring your dog, if your responsible, fine; just don't expect me to sing in elation about it!
Who cares where you live, it's who you are and what you do as a person that matters?!
FYI - pets on trails, and in areas other than like campgrounds, in National Parks is outlawed.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:37pm PT
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Well Ricardo,
like I said. Once I got some space I fired into the ground and that was enough.
But I've been bit 3 times and am losing all tolerance, and DON'T consider trying to chase down and beat a dog an attractive option.
I try to warn the owner if there is time, buuuuuuut;
If it is a danger BANG!
(save a few rounds for the aftermath)
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
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So, I thought about where this discussion went because of my reactionary statements.
I apologize, y'all hit a raw nerve saying that dogs don't have a place in the wilds like we do.
FWIW, I don't take my dogs to busy areas, and I always have a leash ready. My dogs respond to voice commands and have NEVER been aggressive to anyone. Heck, if someone broke into my house, they'd bark and then try to lick the intruder to death. Labs are good like that.
Anyway, I'm not an as#@&%e and I apologize for acting like one.
Brandon-
My dogs will continue to go on adventures with me however.
Edit;
FYI - pets on trails, and in areas other than like campgrounds, in National Parks is outlawed.
Yes it is. I obey the rules.
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R.B.
Big Wall climber
Land of the Lahar
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
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Ricardo, I hear you.
You sound like a responsible dog owner, and of course, I was being reactionary myself from my anger of being bitten by an unleashed dog and a clueless dog owner saying "well he's never bitten anyone before." There is always a first!
If one is a climber up on the stone, and their dog runs unleashed along the base, and said dog bites a 6 year old ... get my drift?
Peace On, Climb On!
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
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Dogs can be unpredictable...
Even "Well behaved" ones... True.
My standard answer when asked by anyone if my dog bites is, "Yes. She's a dog. All dogs bite under the right circumstances." Now, that's not to say she will (little GoofballFruitBat is afraid of her own flippin' shadow, fer cryin' out loud), but she IS and will always be a dog, and it's in a dog's nature to bite, ergo...
Leave Jerry Springer on the TV for them... LOL!
Now just hand me my walker and I'll teach that mutt a lesson it'll never forget Where were you yesterday, Anders!?!?!
Many States have "Leash Laws"... True, and TN is one such state, and for the generally speaking,folks around here are actually fairly compliant, at least within the city where it's more obviously more crowded. That said, (oh GAWD am I really going down this road??) a lot of the grousing I hear about the local leash laws generally comes from younger (late teens/20's and early 30ish) folks who have moved down south from other places.
Maybe with the acquisition of walkers and canes comes a modicum of reason and at least an understanding of where the rules and regs come from?? Then again, mayhapse I'm being a bit of a Pollyanna???
I dunno...
Anders, if you can't find your walker next weekend don't come lookin' for it down south!
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R.B.
Big Wall climber
Land of the Lahar
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:55pm PT
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Blackbird, I guess your thread has struck a nerve, and it is a touchy subject. That looked like a pretty bad bite, and I hope it healed well.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
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Funny.
Ricardo sounds like a responsible dog owner. No prob.
But the comments about labs (some of my favorite dogs) are ironic if one considers that the stats say that THEY account for the most number of bites at the ER.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
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So that will make me rue the day?
No Tami, I was speaking about a negative reaction towards my dog when he comes up, tail wagging, giving little whiny yelps of love to a passerby.
I was overreacting to the broad generalization that ALL dogs should be left at home.
You guys should meet my mongrels, they're pretty darn awesome!
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R.B.
Big Wall climber
Land of the Lahar
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
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I have climbed with countless partners that have brought the dog to the crag. Out of respect to my partners, I kept silent. Just don't want somebody being bitten by a dog at the crags. Not a good thing, regardless of the politics. Just food for thought.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
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But the comments about labs (some of my favorite dogs) are ironic if one considers that the stats say that THEY account for the most number of bites at the ER.
Ron, I hadn't heard that one. I wonder if it's commensurate with the population of labs, as they seem to be one of the most popular breeds.
Training is everything with dogs, and I take pride in how I've raised mine.
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
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If one is a climber up on the stone, and their dog runs unleashed along the base, and said dog bites a 6 year old ... get my drift?
Exactly the point I tried to make yesterday after I got bit, and the clueless owner's response was, "I try to watch her. She usually does that to men; she's never done it to women." added to, "She's friendly 90% of the time."
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R.B.
Big Wall climber
Land of the Lahar
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
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It's the clueless owner that I think I really direct my anger at!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
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Maybe Ricardo.
Maybe labs are just really effective when they bite.
Maybe they have a secret deal and get kickbacks from ObamaCare.
(They ARE pretty smart)
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
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Ricardo, I empathize with you, as I like dogs very much. However, as a professional that has to deal with dog bites, and has made many, many reports on dogs biting children in particular, I also appreciate that there is an unpredictability to dogs. all dogs. The only dogs I would TEND to trust would be HIGHLY trained dogs that have been exceptionally well trained(Professionally?), and respond 100% of the time.
I can think of only one dog I've backpacked with. Voice controlled so well (a competitor), that if you told him to "stay", you got the impression that he'd still be sitting there a year later. He was, an hour later.
I would never allow a dog to run on a trail out of my sight, as that means that they may encounter another person, out of my control.
What you may not appreciate is that there are some people who have very serious allergies...some life-threatening...to dogs, and they are scared to death, due to experiences they HAVE HAD. THESE DID NOT INVOLVE ATTACKS.
But, they are terrified, none the less. Dogs, even passive dogs, react to this, and it can trigger an attack, when it would otherwise never happen. This is not the dogs fault, this is not the person's fault, THIS IS THE DOG OWNER'S FAULT, because they were not controlling their animal, which is THEIR obligation. About 20% of the population has allergies to dogs, although most are not serious. Most of them know it, and most of them don't want to be around a dog, as they don't want a reaction to ruin their day.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
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Wonder what caused it to want to bite you?
I've never had a problem with anyones dogs.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:22pm PT
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Is the outdoors conducive to triggering an allergic reaction? I have friends that don't want my dogs in their house, but love to hike with them.
All that said, many of you are writing from urban areas. I won't bring my animals to cities or any area where there are lots of people.
I live five miles from a town of 2000 people. I don't let my dogs charge ahead on trails. They listen, their training was intense enough that they will not disobey me.
Maybe we're talking apples and oranges.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:25pm PT
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I don't let my do go out of sight on a trail, because I don't want her to be eaten by a mountain lion. But she's smart, she's an Aussie...not a normal dog. Hehe.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:25pm PT
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One difficulty is that many dog owners say that the dog is trained, harmless, will obey orders, etc but it's either a wishful or self-serving belief, or an outright lie. Added to that, it's not readily apparent which dogs (and owners) are properly trained. No obvious visual or aural evidence, especially when owner and dog are separated.
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
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Blackbird, I guess your thread has struck a nerve, and it is a touchy subject. That looked like a pretty bad bite, and I hope it healed well.
yeah, I shoulda known it going in that the subject matter was gonna be controversial, but dayumn... I got freakin' BIT!!!
It happened yesterday around 3ish, so the pic you see is just over 24 hours apres bite; got it tended to decently quick considering where we were. It's healing and it'll be fine. Thank you.
I just don't know what pizzez me off more: the apathetic attitude of the owner or the location of the bite. I'm not short (5'8); that dog jumped from the uphill side of me, but still...
Apologies, all, for touching off a maelstrom...
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
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An aside, I'm writing this with one of my dogs at my side (the younger). He has a piece of steak from dinner in front of him and has been waiting five minutes for me to tell him it's OK to eat it.
Good boy!
It's all in the training.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
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You feed your dog steak?
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
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Only scraps now and again. They don't beg and they always have to do something to earn it. I just happen to be having steak tonight.
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
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Wonder what caused it to want to bite you? Figure that one out and we'll all know! I dunno... been thinkin' about that and have some potential causes:
1)I came around a corner and it's "pack" (owner, owner's girlfriend and their 3 other dogs) were the first group I had to walk past to get back to my partner and our gear;
2)I DIDN'T have my harness on since I'd just gone to pee, ergo I wasn't making the usual clanky climber noises;
3)the dog just didn't like me;
or 4)MAYBE Skip's right (no apology necessairy, I'm STILL guffawing!!):
Rumor has it, Blackbird tastes a lot like chicken.
I have not one iota of a clue.
I've never had a problem with anyones dogs. Me either up until yesterday!!
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Jan 17, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
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I've been nipped from time to time while out on a run. And that's saying something, 'cause I don't run that often. I guess I just look like a wounded animal, and it triggers a predatory response. Just this summer I had an apparently friendly dog run up beside me and get a little tangled up while jumping up next to me. I gave his head a solid shove, sending him into the bushes, but he caught a couple of my fingers pretty good in the process. That changed the whole nature of our little interaction. I was pissed, and he turned into "aggro dog." I turned away and got on with my run, but I really wanted to grab him by the collar and break his back. Seriously. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, manages to get my hackles up quite like some stupid cur trying to pick a fight with me. Funny thing is, the smaller the dog, the more pissed I seem to get about it. I guess I just get that way 'cause I know that little yapper has been allowed to be that way. Clearly the BS coming out of the dog is tolerated by the owners, and somebody else needs to teach it a lesson. Frankly I'm amazed I haven't killed one yet. Barks and sneaky or reactionary nips are one thing, but if one ever tries to latch on, I don't think I'll be able to control myself. I think about that from time to time, and it freaks me out a little. I mean, I'm a pretty mellow guy, but an angry dog in my face makes my blood boil like the Hulk. What are the legal ramifications of a consensual dog v. human fight anyway? I mean, if some dog bites you, and you end up killing the dog (which prob. goes beyond self defense, yes?), can you be held to any legal consequence?
In my experience, dog owners are universally delusional (and I count myself, from my own dog-owning years).
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2011 - 09:44pm PT
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But if my dog did attack, and you got a bite, I will understand. But you better have good cause to show I agree.
Stay the f*#k out of my pack. Stay outta my pack, too, unless you want ME to bite your hand for gettin' into my bag of peanut M&Ms!!! Oh... wait... You were talking about something different... hmmm...
:)
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Jan 17, 2011 - 09:46pm PT
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
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Jim that had me laughing loud enough to wake up my mongrels!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 17, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
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Blackbird. My sympathies to you.
I received a similar wound on my calf two-years ago while doing a day hike.
Heidi and I ran into the nice old geeze with two dogs. From 50 feet away, we exchanged polite greetings, while the dogs trotted forward to make friends with us. We did polite dog greeting ritual, then his border collie circled around behind me and "heeled me" with a painful bite to my calf.
I yelled indignantly and chased the dog back to its "bad" master.
He instantly said: "did my dog bite you?"
Then he whined: "Are you OK?" He was really nice and concerned, and obviously felt bad.
I had the "don't be a pussy" moment, and told the old geeze I was OK, but he needed to keep his dog under control. I was really polite.
We hiked another mile, until I was starting to limp from the growing bruise. On the way back, we caught up with the old geeze and both the dogs moved to get behind us. We had trekking poles for offensive tools, and aggressed right back, then chased his dogs back to him.
He apologized profusely again.
I am so sorry I did not demand ID and insurance info from him. I am also sorry I did not call law enforcement and try to make his life miserable.
By the next day, the wound looked like yours, only it was oozing blood. I limped for a month.
When we thought about it: the geeze knew his dog would bite. I’ve heard the: “did my dog bite you” line before from aggressive dog owners. They know their dogs bite people.
Later that same year, Heidi was invited into a client’s home and their German Sheppard attempted a “wrist take-down” on her. She grew up with dogs and was okay with dogs, but now views dogs with caution, and certain fear ever since.
She suffered tendon-damage and fought their insurance company for two-years, before getting her medical costs reimbursed.
So----flash forward to climbing at City of Rocks last summer, and encountering off-leash aggressive dogs, despite there being a leash law there.
What’s with all the ass-holes that ignore the “dogs on leash” signs at places with those regulations?
I think a lot of dog-owners live in denial about what their pets are like.
However I do believe that “nice-people have nice dogs” and “ass-holes have bad dogs.”
------or is it "bad dogs own human as#@&%es?"
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jan 17, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
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Samantha, that bite looks terrible.
I'd a been back to my pack to get my D5 hammer, which is now
going to be standard issue there.
Please check with a doc so you don't get rabies or some other
infection--as you know, mouths are very dirty places.
I hope you'll be okay--and don't apologize for starting a
maelstrom--you were attacked, period.
Not your fault. Period.
Take care of yourself, and say hi to Abby the wonder dog for me!!!!
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 17, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
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Nasty. I think that when one is a dog lover and then has another dog attack like that it is especially rattling. Take care. Susan
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 11:11pm PT
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I'm impressed that everyone can spell mćlstrřm. But can anyone pronounce it properly? :-)
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
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Well, Anders, the southern pronunciation would equate to something akin to:
MAILstrum; however, seein' as how we butcher and bastardize all words coming from any dictionary, it's most likely about as wrong as a body can get. Honestly, it's pretty impressive we can spell anything at all, seein' as how we DO butcher every language on the globe with our accents...!!
Ya gotta love us southern folk. We're at least good for a laugh now and again!!!
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
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Susan, it IS disconcerting.
Fritz, I'm looking to see that coloration in a week or so... I'm sorry you had to deal with that; that sux!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
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Let's surmise this by reshaping the title.
'Dogs bite at the crags.'
I love my dogs, but they're better left at home when I'm climbing.
I'll hike with them but I won't climb with them, they can't climb with me.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
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Samantha, your attempt at the phonetics is pretty close - considering that the word uses two vowels that don't really exist in English. But you also have to roll the "r" - though maybe that's something they already know how to do in the south?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 17, 2011 - 11:27pm PT
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Not the Total Perspective Vortex? The horror! The horror!
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
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Anders, I'm fluent in Bastardized English (AKA: southern-ese), PigLatin, BullShyte, bluegrass/old time fiddle music and kayak-ese. The only rolls I'm used to/trained to - ah - perform are those on a fiddle and in a boat; I'm gonna guess either of those aren't gonna count for much in this particular context!!
Edit: as per the link locker provided, that'd be how they say it up in western NC (picture it coming from the mouth of an old guy with a long beard, a fiddle tucked under one arm, bow caught on the pinky of the same hand, and an adult beverage in the other between sets in the back room of the local convenience store/gas station/community certer and you've got it dead on.)
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Jan 17, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
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Confession of a dog owner: Climbing with Fly for several days at Alabama Hills. Fly is getting along with everyone, dogs, people, etc.
Day three we are the only one's at this particular face. I am leading, on a cruxy move and a party comes around the corner. Man in dark suit is in the lead. Fly is off leash and goes nuts protecting us from the intruder. I'm yelling for fly to back off, Laura is ready to leave me hangin off belay, I'm telling Laura to stay put. Man turns and leaves with no damage.
Dog owner learns a lesson and will always have dog on leash when belay is on. I wanted to apologize to that party, but could not find them.
Fly the Border Collie
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 17, 2011 - 11:56pm PT
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Blackbird: Hope you get over the bite quickly. Your bruise and mine were about the same early on.
However, I think most of my bruise came from hiking two miles after the bite. I pumped a lot of blood into my wound.
It was shocking: when a dog I thought was friendly bit me.
Best Wishes, Fritz
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Jan 17, 2011 - 11:59pm PT
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That sucks, Samantha - hope you heal up soon!
It really sucks to be attacked when your intentions are just good - I think that is what gets me riled up about the two random dog-bites I have received.
The cat-bites I got were way worse though - dogs at least have clean mouths. Cats...not so much.
The first time ever I got bit was at Smith Rock, early 90's. Some friend told me if you see an aggressive dog off a leash, make a cross in front of your chest with your arms. Bad advice, it just pissed the dog off and it bit me in the leg (while my hands were on my shoulders and unable to do any defensive moves). I bitched that guy out who gave me that advice, I can tell you. Never did see the owner, just got out of there.
The second time was on a bicycle in Bend, riding to the store - I tried to kick the chasing dog away, and it bit me on the ankle. Next time I rode by that house, I was ready. I had a squirt-bottle in my water-bottle cage, and doused the dog good. It threw the dog off for a while, but it was a real chaser - I ended up administering one resounding whack to the head with a full-sized pump, and that seemed to deter (at least me and my bicycle).
What really gets me is the protective nature of bad owners and their bad dogs:
"He/she's a good dog, I don't know why they did that/they've never done that before." The implication being "It must be your fault my dog bit you."
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sjellison
Mountain climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jan 18, 2011 - 12:08am PT
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It also sucks when Aholes let their dogs run around the top of a crag, knocking rocks off on to climbers. Places like Paradise Forks where you rap in.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 18, 2011 - 12:10am PT
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hey there say, man oh man, i wanted to jump in here and say "get well soon" to you, blackbird... :)
but had a few chores to do, in between me reading this at the ol' face book, and then getting over to HERE... and whewww, seems the ol' thread is at 109, now... and growing ... :)
say, my mom, too, was simply riding her bike around the block, once, years back... a dog ran right out and jumped up, fling at her, and bit her in the thigh... rightly said, she was shocked... (cant remember the whole story of what she did, but i'm fit to ask her now)... took a LONG time for it to get well, too.... :(
me, i never understood why dogs weren't on leashes, but then, we grew up in san jose, and i think, unless it was a rumor to "scare us"--dogs were supposed to be on a leash, as it was a law (??) *course the pound could pick them up, if they ran off, or a car could hit them...
well, always had my dogs on leashes--just did not want to lose them...
aslo:
dana B-- i think that to some dog owners, the dogs are an "extention" of themselves (possessions that extend to 'create' a persona, etc) that is why some dog owners are so rude, etc, if you dare to even 'look wrong' at their dog... (not saying everyone is like this, but you get my drift)... some folks, sadly, are like this with their children, too:
you thus, can't tell them a THING about their dog, or their kids, without it being an act of "war" against their "persona"...
does that help, a mite, as to why some folks are so bad when you deal with them?
of course,
if one has dogs, just cause they love dogs, that is very different, of course... :)
well, lastly, dogs are dogs, and owners, if they take up the responsibility of having one, must learn to understand the "dog world"--meaning, "dogs are NOT people" they don't behave as people-folks, we, must learn all there is, as to how and why, they do what they do, and when, and why, they CAN and WILL try to, or, actually,bite...
and, oooops, one more, lastly:
some dogs, meaning patty ann marie, for instance, well....
she just prefers a quiet sofa, and some pillows, INSTEAD of...
jerry springer! ohmy.... :O
really?
*course, i don't have cable for tv, so what do i know... :O
:))
get well, soon, blackbird...
very sorry to hear that you got bit...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 18, 2011 - 12:25am PT
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hey there say, jim.... oh, yes... they are such fun... (and other critters, too)...
it is always, fun, too, when we really DO see them for what they are:
critters... uniquely, non-human, in special ways...
:)
edit:
ooops can't get dictionary out 'til tomorrow.. but will go and look it up, then...
nite, all...
:)
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Jan 18, 2011 - 12:30am PT
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I am also usually psyched to see dogs at the crag... Yet I agree, it should have an easy going personality or be left at home. It is the owner's responsibility to prevent incidents from happening and there is no excuse with allowing a dog to attack people.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 18, 2011 - 02:28am PT
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Puppies: A three part tale
When I was 12 years old I got mauled by a Chow. Broke 5 bones in my left hand, I was told I would have minimal use of it (its OK I am a righty). This was back when I was in love with nothing but basketball and it killed my ability to play for over a year and subsequently I didn't make it onto the high school team (also I stopped growing that year, so it wouldn't have gone far anyway, and basketball is for gayz). A TON of work on it and its 100%, though I never found out where that bone chip went out to.
Fast forward to 2009. I'm 25 years old and my parents buy a Boxer. A MUSCULAR, SUPER energetic boxer. It is all sinew and testosterone. I wrestle and play (maybe too hard) every time I visit him. We are super close. I very much am the alpha male and every once in a while he crosses the line. On at least one occasion I have accidentally choked him unconscious (tee hee!). I would feel bad had it not been for the fact that I've had it happen to myself enough that I know it causes minimal brain damage.
Summer 2010. At tahquitz, I see dogs. Lots. Sometimes 3 or 4 per visit. Overall maybe I saw 25? In those 25 three have barked as I walked by (the others were super cuddly). Of those 3, one tried to rush me. Idiot f*#k face dog owner left a sheep dog of some sort, maybe 40 pounds, at Lunch Rock. Was "guarding" his pack (right next to mine). F*#ker.
I am lightly annoyed at being rained out and having to retreat to my pack, much more so to see idiot yapper. It is FREAKED out, probably because the hour of rain that pelted him, and is in full panic/aggression. I have my little sister with me. Its buried its hind legs and is ready to throw down.
I charge the f*#ker with every intent to dominate that bitch. Get right up to it, its jumping up at me and I grab it by the collar (luckily it had one, otherwise I would probably have gotten jacked lol) with both hands and hold it against the ground. Get a knee on it. Look it in the eye - say with authority "NO."
Dog was cool after that.
Oh, and if your dog has trouble remembering who you are, probably its because I cut off its carotid artery for a little too long :)
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Jan 18, 2011 - 02:33am PT
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"The rules don't apply to my dog" attitude is sooooo pervasive, too.
Here at Tahoe, many if not most of the beaches are leash-only or No Dogs, and people ignore these rules completely. As a birder, it pisses me off to no end when I'm trying to scout a beach for migrants and people's dogs are running around chasing everything off. "Oh, they're just having fun." Yeah, tell that to the shorebird that's halfway through a 5,000 mile southbound migration, and just trying to catch a break and grab a little snack.
Classic example, coupled with the classic denial, happened a year or two ago. I'm setup with my scope on Kings Beach, scanning the lake for loons and such, when along comes some lady with her little yappers running willy-nilly everywhere, which is a well-posted no-no. As soon as they make me, they're freaking out, running all around me and barking like crazy. "Oh, it must be your tripod. They never bark like that."
"No lady, it must be your dogs."
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Jan 18, 2011 - 02:51am PT
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When I was just a little kid and got a pet dog, I bit back every time - and hard. My folks told me dogs only had one-third of the nerve-endings of humans, so I held him down and bit three times as hard (approximately). After a few rounds of that game, Pete never bit anyone else in his life and was a very well-behaved dog.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 18, 2011 - 02:52am PT
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I didn't want to hurt the guy, he was just scared and abandoned. I did want to let it know that it wasn't in charge so there was nothing to protect :)
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sjellison
Mountain climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jan 18, 2011 - 02:55am PT
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gotta fight fire with fire mister
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sjellison
Mountain climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jan 18, 2011 - 03:43am PT
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where the fock do you get an ocelot??
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sjellison
Mountain climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jan 18, 2011 - 04:53am PT
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casual thing? how long do they live?
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bjj
climber
beyond the sun
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Jan 18, 2011 - 06:12am PT
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"
Don't f*#k with other peoples dogs or their stuff. If you are too close it WILL make the dog nervious, maybe you don't have to climb RIGHT NEXT to the dog just right now?? 20-30 feet away should be a minimum for most dogs, because you WILL be inside MY zone of comfort if you are less than that, and I never bother yelling at my dogs for something somebody is doing that pisses ME off"
What the f*#k?
People have to go out of their way not to climb something near where your off leashed dogs are hanging out? Or else suffer you "wrath"?
You sound like a first class as#@&%e and you if this is really how you act in real life (which I highly doubt) then your destiny to have your head caved in by someone who doesn't want to have to relocate to avoid making your dogs "nervous" is pretty much guaranteed.
You keyboard posturing isn't impressing anyone. I GUARANTEE I will climb anywhere I want, and you and your dogs will stay well away from me while I am trying to enjoy a crag and not otherwise bothering you or your dogs.
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bjj
climber
beyond the sun
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Jan 18, 2011 - 06:25am PT
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Lol. What a total blowhard. You're the one bragging. You probably really think that "age and treachery beats youth and strength". No one is buying it. You sound ridiculous trying to impress God knows who here.
Keep your goddamned dogs on a leash and under control and everything will be fine. You have NO RIGHT to put someone else in an uncomfortable situation with your dogs who are off leash in probably violation of the law. Same way I keep my dog on a leash when I take it somewhere we might run into other people.
See how easy that is? Take a second think about the right way to behave and no one will have to worry about "taking you on". Blowhard.
"You youngsters can brag about how tough you are all you want, but given a young man or an older one, I will f*#k with the younger every time over the older one. The old ones been through hell and war and all kinds of sh#t over the last few decades, and the young ones been in high school.
Don't think that grey hair means pussy like a little wooly cap does.
You take me on, and I am going to have little reason to not finish you quickly. I know enough to make sure its quick and done, and I got little pity after as many years of hard times as I have had. You may think you have some advantage in physicality, and I will likely believe that too. So I compensate throughly when possible. That I am willing to take you on at all given your obvious superiority should scare the piss out of you. You only get one chance kid, and you only get that if you make the right decision."
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bjj
climber
beyond the sun
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Jan 18, 2011 - 06:33am PT
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People who don't have dogs and don't spend a lot of time around them may not know the difference between a dog running up being friendly and a dog thats aggressive. And you have NO RIGHT to put them in the position to have to figure it out.
I know the difference, but if I didn't and your dog runs up to me, or God forbid my girl or her kid, it may get a kick in the face because better safe than sorry. And if that's a problem because you couldn't be bothered to observe common courtesy and leash your dog then you might get similar treatment. People's rights come before that of your dogs. Period.
C'mon ROckjox, fake internet tough guy. Let's hear how you think it will play out.
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jopay
climber
so.il
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Jan 18, 2011 - 08:36am PT
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As Inspector Clouseau bends over to pet a dog he asks the man does your dog bite?, the man replies no, Clouseau is then bitten and replies I thought you said your dog does not bite. Man replies that is not my dog.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jan 18, 2011 - 08:44am PT
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Don't f*#k with other peoples dogs or their stuff. If you are too close it WILL make the dog nervious, maybe you don't have to climb RIGHT NEXT to the dog just right now?? 20-30 feet away should be a minimum for most dogs, because you WILL be inside MY zone of comfort if you are less than that, and I never bother yelling at my dogs for something somebody is doing that pisses ME off"
You must never have climbed @ twall, where I am guessing this incident took place (and routes are stacked literally feet apart and the trail runs right along the baseBold Text)...
Dogs in general @ the crags suck...(how about everyone elses comfort zone?) between turds, scraps, stealing food, pissing, fighting, getting territorial (on peeps) barking, choking/getting caught with their leash-something we've helped with many times while owner(s) up on cliff, etc, so on. in general it's a lot more pleasant without 'em...partner was scraping dog chit off his shoe a few months ago, a strong recent "olfactory" memory.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 18, 2011 - 09:03am PT
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Willoughby
too phucking funny.
Your tripod?
Just shoot one of them in the leg and say to her, "No! It must be YOUR tripod, cheese dick."
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drockschick
Trad climber
The Dirty South
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Jan 18, 2011 - 09:53am PT
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First off, Samantha, it sucks that you got bitten. That's the bottom line. Dog bites can be dangerous and even minor bites can be terrifying. No one likes it and nothing makes it okay. I'm sorry that happened to you. The fact that the dog's owner is your ex-boyfriend must add insult to injury.
My standard answer when asked by anyone if my dog bites is, "Yes. She's a dog. All dogs bite under the right circumstances." Now, that's not to say she will (little GoofballFruitBat is afraid of her own flippin' shadow, fer cryin' out loud), but she IS and will always be a dog, and it's in a dog's nature to bite, ergo...
KUDOS to you, Samantha. I don't know that I could be this big a person after being bitten.
That said, when you post on a public forum, especially when you post about something controversial, it's is very important that you do it in an accurate and responsible manner because the people and dogs you post about are going to now have to deal with the flack from the inaccuracies as well as from the actual events.
Yes, you were bitten, but the other dog in the 'pack' DID NOT come after you. In fact, the reason that the owner did not see you get bitten is that he was belaying and was at the time telling the second dog to get off the rope. I know this, because I was his climber, and I yelled at the dog who bit you. That is also how I know for a fact that the dog is current on vaccinations- I took her and the other TWO dogs to get them two weeks ago.
And that leads me to another inaccuracy in your tale: after the dog bit, you say we didn't restrain her. No, he didn't immediately tie her up. He couldn't. He was belaying me on my very first trad lead. But he did command her to sit and stay which she immediately did, and we tied her up as soon as I got on the ground.
And when you say that he mentioned that she had only ever bitten men you make it sound as though he was being flippant or clueless, which was not the case. He was embarrassed because, being a chivalrous man, it upset him that the dog had bitten a woman.
He was never flippant or 'clueless' in his behavior toward you, and never defensive. He was concerned and apologetic, even the second time you came back for a superfluous diatribe about it.
And according to what you said at the time, the injury was very minor and the issue was the dog's behavior, so you gave him no reason to believe you felt you were due anything more than an apology and an offer to compensate if anything developed.
The dog will be muzzled in the future. It is the right thing to do. We love dogs and want them to be safe and welcome at the crag, and we try to be ethical climbers and dog owners. Again, I hate that it happened to you and do not in any way think it was okay. I am not making an effort to defend a dog bite. You have a right to air your grievance, and your grievance is justified. But same as dog owners, if want to keep your rights you have to maintain your responsibilities- when you post, post accurately. Don't embellish the story.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jan 18, 2011 - 10:02am PT
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...was belaying me on my very first trad lead.
Your whole sequence sounds messed up. Maybe you should have tied roves up before your lead...given the fact that you know roves "bites", someone (belayer?) probably should have been @ the ready to get Dog Brown Wings.
I, personally, would try to minimize the distractions on my first trad lead...mebbe a good day to leave fidos behind
it upset him that the dog had bitten a woman.
---yet okay when dog bite man..?
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jan 18, 2011 - 10:08am PT
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Not if you are "chivalrous"(??)
Poster kind of contradicts with...
"No one likes it and nothing makes it okay."
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 18, 2011 - 10:15am PT
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drockschick
Trad climber
The Dirty South
Jan 18, 2011 - 06:53am PT
First off, Samantha, it sucks that you got bitten. That's the bottom line. Dog bites can be dangerous and even minor bites can be terrifying. No one likes it and nothing makes it okay. I'm sorry that happened to you. The fact that the dog's owner is your ex-boyfriend must add insult to injury.
My standard answer when asked by anyone if my dog bites is, "Yes. She's a dog. All dogs bite under the right circumstances." Now, that's not to say she will (little GoofballFruitBat is afraid of her own flippin' shadow, fer cryin' out loud), but she IS and will always be a dog, and it's in a dog's nature to bite, ergo...
KUDOS to you, Samantha. I don't know that I could be this big a person after being bitten.
That said, when you post on a public forum, especially when you post about something controversial, it's is very important that you do it in an accurate and responsible manner because the people and dogs you post about are going to now have to deal with the flack from the inaccuracies as well as from the actual events.
Yes, you were bitten, but the other dog in the 'pack' DID NOT come after you. In fact, the reason that the owner did not see you get bitten is that he was belaying and was at the time telling the second dog to get off the rope. I know this, because I was his climber, and I yelled at the dog who bit you. That is also how I know for a fact that the dog is current on vaccinations- I took her and the other TWO dogs to get them two weeks ago.
And that leads me to another inaccuracy in your tale: after the dog bit, you say we didn't restrain her. No, he didn't immediately tie her up. He couldn't. He was belaying me on my very first trad lead. But he did command her to sit and stay which she immediately did, and we tied her up as soon as I got on the ground.
And when you say that he mentioned that she had only ever bitten men you make it sound as though he was being flippant or clueless, which was not the case. He was embarrassed because, being a chivalrous man, it upset him that the dog had bitten a woman.
He was never flippant or 'clueless' in his behavior toward you, and never defensive. He was concerned and apologetic, even the second time you came back for a superfluous diatribe about it.
And according to what you said at the time, the injury was very minor and the issue was the dog's behavior, so you gave him no reason to believe you felt you were due anything more than an apology and an offer to compensate if anything developed.
The dog will be muzzled in the future. It is the right thing to do. We love dogs and want them to be safe and welcome at the crag, and we try to be ethical climbers and dog owners. Again, I hate that it happened to you and do not in any way think it was okay. I am not making an effort to defend a dog bite. You have a right to air your grievance, and your grievance is justified. But same as dog owners, if want to keep your rights you have to maintain your responsibilities- when you post, post accurately. Don't embellish the story.
(the first time I ever wrote this)
BWAHAHAHAHA
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drockschick
Trad climber
The Dirty South
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Jan 18, 2011 - 10:17am PT
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Wow, 426. You really pick out the obscure things that make a situation look bad. No one said it was okay to bite a man. I simply said he was responding based on the innate need of many men to feel protective toward a woman.
And I am sorry if my status as a new climber makes my opinion on dog bites less valid in your eyes. Perhaps I should just know my place.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jan 18, 2011 - 10:19am PT
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I dunno, situtaion sounds pretty bad, mebbe you should think about "the dog's place...."
---just talking "theoretical safety" here (for all), I don't begrudge your noviciate status
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drockschick
Trad climber
The Dirty South
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Jan 18, 2011 - 10:25am PT
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And at no time did I imply that the situation was okay. All I did was ask that Samantha not make a bad situation worse by embellishing the facts.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 18, 2011 - 10:29am PT
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Yeah , I don't begrudge novice status either, but how come YOU are chiming in instead of him?
(Though I gotta admit that when you said
was belaying me on my very first trad lead. I was tempted to suggest that the tension must've been palpable!)
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jan 18, 2011 - 10:35am PT
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Again, "theoretically", it seems that you are "asking" the climbing community to tolerate an aggressive "bitey" dog unleashed @ a pretty popular crag while yall are up on lead with gear. Seems a bit risky for all around...ymmv
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drockschick
Trad climber
The Dirty South
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Jan 18, 2011 - 10:38am PT
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Jeez people. Somehow methinks you just want to fight. I'm chiming in because someone needs to set the record straight. You people act like I am defending something indefensible, and if you actually read what I wrote you would see that isn't the case.
It sucks that she got bitten. That doesn't make it okay for her to make out like we handled the situation callously or that we tried to assert that the bite was acceptable. He did all he could to make a bad situation better, he didn't say it wasn't a bad situation.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jan 18, 2011 - 10:43am PT
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Wow, 426. You really pick out the obscure things that make a situation look bad
...
He did all he could to make a bad situation better, he didn't say it wasn't a bad situation.
Not here to scrap, just suggesting some "safety" considerations, not only for you, but others (and fido, too!!!)...
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 18, 2011 - 11:03am PT
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bb, you should report that incident and the dog should be quarantined to check for rabies. That's serious stuff.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 18, 2011 - 11:55am PT
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While you're handing out advice how about not going climbing near your ex?
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drockschick
Trad climber
The Dirty South
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Jan 18, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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Piton Ron I just gotta tell ya that whether you post in my defense or in opposition I think you are freaking hilarious!!! It would be impossible not to enjoy your posts.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 18, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
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1. Non-barking, well behaved dog on leash with a group of people single pitch cragging, where dogs are legally allowed = NO PROBLEM. Dogs love this. This is what dogs are MEANT for. If you have a problem with this it's YOUR problem.
2. Barking dog on a leash = a-hole owner. Does not belong there.
3. On leash dog while owners leave it to do a multi-pitch. Usually breaking the law. Your dog does not enjoy this. Some a-hole may overreact and hurt it. Almost always does not belong there.
4. Off leash dog left alone. Often dog is whimpering or aggressive. Owner never sees dog in this situation and thinks "he just lies there peacefully.". Almost always does not belong there.
5. Off leash dog left alone bites or gets into someones pack. Don't be surprised if your dog is hurt or gone when you come back to it. Does not belong there.
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corniss chopper
climber
not my real name
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Jan 18, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
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Taking the viewpoint of 'survival of the fittest': a human with a club is superior to a dog. Without -inferior. Choosing to be unarmed with even this most simple of weapons is a sign you are an aspiring Darwin Award winner.
We evolved thumbs for a reason.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jan 18, 2011 - 01:09pm PT
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Yesterday I posted on this thread and then went climbing. Some guys left a dog tied up at the base and then vanished for an hour. Dog was whining and crying the entire time.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 18, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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Well I'm not a dog hater.
I used to have a great dog. 48 pounds and he would carry half his weight in his pack as far as I could carry a quarter of mine.
He understood rockfall and would patiently wait off to the side while I climbed.
He was a great friend, but if I hadn't trained him as well and he misbehaved then I understand the flip side of the coin.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 18, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
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If you're giving baths to wolves, RJ would like to know about it.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 18, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
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Man bites dog. Hardcore to the bone.
Not hardcore, but that's one of the main ways I established myself as alpha with both my dogs. They did something bad, they were instantly on their backs with my teeth shaking them by the neck, all the while growling. They've got to learn who's boss and that's a very instinctive way for them to figure it out.
I never hurt them, but it scared the crap out of 'em and put 'em in their place.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 18, 2011 - 01:59pm PT
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A boot to the ribs will do the trick too, and no fur balls in the teeth!
That works too.
Watch a nature show about wolves and see how the packs govern themselves though.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 18, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
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I thought it wasn't her dog.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 18, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
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Although the most important detail we don't have from blackbird is,...
WHO DUMPED WHO!
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drockschick
Trad climber
The Dirty South
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Jan 18, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
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He doesn't post because he knows what really happened and knows Samantha has no reason to sue.
I have no position to defend, it wasn't my dog. I simply saw what happened and will stand behind it when someone is being libeled. Don't really care what you believe ekat and tami, obviously you didn't read my post WHICH BEGAN WITH AN APOLOGY.
And Ron, he dumped her.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 18, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
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I bet I already know who has bigger tits.
and now we return to another episode of,......... As The Dogbite Turns!
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Gene
climber
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Jan 18, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
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A dog’s owner has full responsibility for the dog's actions. If a dog is wandering unattended and bites without provocation, it should be put down. Unattended includes having its owner roped up and unable to immediately control the pup.
Common sense and good manners dictate that the dog stay home or be on a short leash in places where other folks have access.
This ain't rocket surgery, folks.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 18, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
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.
And when you say that he mentioned that she had only ever bitten men you make it sound as though he was being flippant or clueless, which was not the case. He was embarrassed because, being a chivalrous man, it upset him that the dog had bitten a woman.
He is not clueless, he is a danger to the public. We are now talking about a dog that has REPEATEDLY attacked multiple people and caused physical damage. Generally, this requires the dog be put down.
You guys are now KNOWINGLY harboring a DANGEROUS animal that has REPEATEDLY injured people.
Your assertion that you will muzzle the dog is absurd: dogs get out of them all the time. When it happens, and when that dog attacks another person, I volunteer to testify about this thread and all this information on behalf of the injured person.
Jeez!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 18, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
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Bad dog owners ruin it for all the other dog owners. This dog didn't belong on a leash, he belonged being left at home.
OK, so I'm minding my own bisuness, walking around the corner after having gone to pee and this dog f'n comes at me and tries to grab my arm. I push back into it's mouth, effectively getting the dog off of me and out of my way, and the dayumned thing starts growling and chomping at me (riling up another dog owned by the same person) then jumps and gets me in the side. I knee the dog off, but the thing freakin' broke skin!! WTF?!?!
When it grabbed your arm was it trying to be "friendly" in the way that some overly-friendly dogs can be or was it attacking you? If it was just being overly-friendly then aggressively pushing it away would escalate the situation. Either way, the dog owner was in the wrong.
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sjellison
Mountain climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jan 18, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
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too many "if"s. leave the dog at home
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 18, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
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An abdomen of luridly-coloured bruises and bite marks is pretty convincing support for what Samantha says. Her character is known here, and there seems a vanishingly small probability that she in any way provoked the attack. And in any case there are damn few (if any) justifications for a dog biting a human. If the dog has a history of attacks, as suggested, then it or its owner need to be severely restrained (or sued), or the dog should be killed before it hurts someone else.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jan 18, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
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dog bites human,
dog gets acute
lead poisoning.
learned that
one at a very
early age.
please train
your dogs
people.
they
need it
and want it.
some of them actually
seem built for it.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 18, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
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Blackbird, that bite looks nasty and I hope you heal quickly. I would be terrified if a dog attacked me like that. If I could quickly find a big stick while it was doing that to my kids I would not be upset if I killed it, though my intent would be to immobilize it. The only animals I have killed are fish when I was a kid (and I ate them), and I still occasionally kill insects and arachnids but I often just take them outside instead.
Looks like bjj found Rox's 'on' button.
drockschick, making excuses is not compatible with taking responsibility.
Locker, you are prescient! You start with Jerry Springer references and then...
One idea about the reason for bite: maybe chemical/hormonal? If bb just came back from peeing, the scent might be reminiscent of scared prey or it might have excited some other primal response in the dog that is more deeply embedded than environmental training.
Maybe I'll go scouting for a digging/fighting stick before I next do my business in the wilds....
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Jan 18, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
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BB (aka Samantha) - quite the chomp mark! So your ex sicked the dog on you?All the more reason for legal action - punitive damages could apply here.
p.s. Bernie is still available for your cuddly cougar (Abby)..... but he's a rescue and........he BITES!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 18, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
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Dogs are remarkably perceptive and I wouldn't put it beyond one to sense a hostile relationship even without overt actions.
I still think there are details we haven't heard.
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Gene
climber
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Jan 18, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
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Twins separated at birth?
Aldude's Bernie.
My Paris
EDIT: Here's a thought. Human violence/mistreatment of dogs probably equals or exceeds dog to human attacks.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 18, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
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Dogs are remarkably perceptive and I wouldn't put it beyond one to sense a hostile relationship even without overt actions.
I still think there are details we haven't heard.
Did BB and the dog owner know each other previous to this?
Edit: I shouldn't ask questions without having read through the thread more carefully.
The fact that the dog's owner is your ex-boyfriend must add insult to injury.
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2011 - 06:03pm PT
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wow...
I go to work and come home to find this post has broken the 200 mark.
another wow goes to the vitriol directed towards me, when all I did was post up asking folks to think.
I am SO beyond intrigued...
ok... to begin (then I have more important things to attend to tonight, and I'm sincerely hoping you all do as well):
That said, when you post on a public forum, especially when you post about something controversial, it's is very important that you do it in an accurate and responsible manner because the people and dogs you post about are going to now have to deal with the flack from the inaccuracies as well as from the actual events.
Yes, you were bitten, but the other dog in the 'pack' DID NOT come after you.
Thank you for schooling me on the etiquite of posting on a public forum. My question to you is this: if you were engaged in your first ever trad lead, how do you know which dogs bit me? I only ask because I remember my first lead, and I know I was NOT focused on what was going on on the ground.
Two or more dogs make a pack. Ergo, when one dog becomes aggressive, it is not uncommon for others within the same - ah - shall we say "social group" to become aggressive as well for myriad reasons.
My version of what I witnessed with my own eyes, heard with my own ears and felt when I was bitten is stated in the original post. Yes, two dogs came at me; one of them bit me. Your belayer may not have seen the incident, but there were many others up there that day who did. If any of them would like to chime in and give additional viewpoints, I sincerely welcome them.
And that leads me to another inaccuracy in your tale: after the dog bit, you say we didn't restrain her. No, he didn't immediately tie her up. He couldn't. He was belaying me on my very first trad lead. But he did command her to sit and stay which she immediately did, and we tied her up as soon as I got on the ground.
My "tale"... LOL!! I find that phrase amusing as it was my TAIL in which I was bit!! teehee!!!
Anyway, kudos to you for tying her up once you got on the ground; however, even the second time you came back for a superfluous diatribe about it. the dog was not leashed - she got up and walked over to the owner.
And according to what you said at the time, the injury was very minor and the issue was the dog's behavior, so you gave him no reason to believe you felt you were due anything more than an apology and an offer to compensate if anything developed. At the time, I was more than stunned that I had been bitten, particularly as I had done nothing other than walk past your party (which, as 426 stated, is kind of a challenge to avoid up at the T-wall...) My reasons for coming back were simply to say exactly what I said: "Dude, that wasn't cool, and that really sucked." No argument was started, no voices were raised, and honestly, you appear to be more upset over all of this than he does, so it must have rankled you more than either of us.
when you post, post accurately. Don't embellish the story. My post is accurate and there are no embellishments. If you feel otherwise I am more than happy to sit down with you in person with several other folks who were there that day and witnessed the event in question so that we can ALL gain perspective of the events - not just your perspective of being engaged in your first gear lead or mine of being bitten.
Regarding posting accurately, may I also suggest that you consider signing your name rather than as your anonymous avatar?? Not trying to be hateful, but signing your name to something does tend to give your words more weight and meaning and frequently helps to better convey the sincerity of your message. Just a thought...
I'm off to dinner now...
Samantha
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 18, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
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I'm chiming in because someone needs to set the record straight. You people act like I am defending something indefensible, and if you actually read what I wrote you would see that isn't the case.
He doesn't post because he knows what really happened and knows Samantha has no reason to sue.
I have no position to defend, it wasn't my dog. I simply saw what happened and will stand behind it when someone is being libeled. Don't really care what you believe ekat and tami, obviously you didn't read my post WHICH BEGAN WITH AN APOLOGY.
And Ron, ...
Drockschick sure sounds defensive to me. Would I be wrong in guessing that Drockschick and her belayer have a deeper relationship than that of belayee/belayer or that of personal take-his-dog-to-the-vet chauffeur?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 18, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
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And this is why dogs get banned...
First off, Samantha, it sucks that you got bitten.
You should have said "first off, Samantha, SORRY again that you got bitten." The dog owner, your partner is at fault. Samantha showed extreme restraint and civility in her post. Then you nitpicked her post.
and that leads me to another inaccuracy in your tale: after the dog bit, you say we didn't restrain her. No, he didn't immediately tie her up. He couldn't. He was belaying me
That's not inaccurate. It's true. He couldn't restrain her because he was belaying. Leaving his dog without supervision.
he mentioned that she had only ever bitten men
Are you kidding me? You brought a dog that has bitten people to a crag and left it unleashed, without supervision? WTF?
The dog will be muzzled in the future. It is the right thing to do.
Wrong again. The dog should now always be left at home. How many people has it bit? Muzzling a dog makes it very fearful because it can't defend itself. It also makes it tough to pant and drink. That dog would be miserable.
LEAVE THIS DOG AT HOME.
I'm a dog lover and love seeing well behaved dogs with responsible owners at the crags. But this is exactly why people get pissed off and dogs get banned.
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matisse
climber
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Jan 18, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
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Samantha,
I don't know why you would bother to sit down with these people- her post speaks VOLUMES about her, (i.e. hostile passive aggressive), as if her username wasn't enough drockschick (does she not have an identity of her own?, bleah). You are clearly a nicer person than I am.
There really is only one relevant fact here, that no one seems to dispute: 1. The dog bit you. all the rest is details. they can argue the details all they want but that doesn't do anything to mitigate fact 1.
Sue
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 18, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
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So much estrogen in the house! :-)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 18, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
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But do you have a tripod?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 18, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
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There really is only one relevant fact here, that no one seems to dispute: 1. The dog bit you. all the rest is details.
I think there are two other relevant facts that no one disputes:
2. The dog was off leash
3. Neither of the people that brought it to the crag was in a position to control it.
Not good. Dog's owner is lucky to get off without being sued.
Edit to add: I love dogs. I've never had a bad experience with a dog at a crag, and have had lots of good experiences. But unless someone is with the dog at all times, it should be left at home.
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NikDF
Trad climber
Bay area, CA
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Jan 18, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
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If a dog is human aggressive (or even dog aggressive), in any situation other than defending "their" human in an extreme scenario, that dog should never be let into public, and certainly not be let off leash. If that dog in turn bites someone without provocation, it should be put down. Sorry, but the risk is too high for a
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ncrockclimber
climber
NC
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Jan 18, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
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Samantha, I am so sorry to hear that you got bit. That sucks! I hope that you have a speedy recovery.
As a cautionary tale, I will throw in my $.02. I have what I consider to be a well behaved dog. He comes when called 80% of the time, usually follows basic commands and (with the notable exception which I will explain next) has a great disposition.
While climbing at the New River Gorge a few years ago, my pup nipped at another climber's pant leg / ankle. Up to this point, my pup had never showed aggression towards any person. Despite this, we never left him unattended and only took him climbing with us when we were with friends and either my wife or I could always sit with him. On the day he nipped the other climber we were in an alcove with multiple climbs, and sitting close to another group. The quarters were relatively tight, and everyone was loud, jovial and generally having a good time. For some reason, all of this made my pup nervous, and when one of the guys from the other group got close to my wife, my pup nipped at him.
My wife and I were mortified. We immediately got our dog away from everyone and made sure that the guy who had been bit was OK. He was. To his credit, he was incredibly cool, calm and understanding about the whole thing. He did not have to be, but he was really great about the incident. We packed up our stuff and called it a day. Since then, our dog seldom goes to the crag. We only take him if we are fairly certain we will be alone and even then pack a muzzle in case we do see folks. He is ALWAYS on a leash. ALWAYS.
My point in writing this is that dogs are... well they are dogs! Even the best ones are unpredictable and can, under the correct circumstances, be dangerous. The dude who my dog bit did nothing wrong. It was 100% our fault. In my dogs mind, he was probably protecting my wife. That does not excuse what happened. It just underscores the fact that even good dogs can do bad sh#t and that letting a dog run around unattended at the crag is irresponsible.
Again, best wishes to Samantha for a quick recovery.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jan 18, 2011 - 09:53pm PT
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I 100% with NC on this. The person who is giving Samantha sh#t is absolutely off base. Simple, the dog was off leash, the dog bit someone.
Despite how cute and cuddly fluffy may be, dogs still have instincts and will act upon them.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 18, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
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I was leaning on a chain link fence that was 48 inches tall , talking to this acquaintance at millcreek station....The german sheppard trotted towards me just as the owner was warning me about his dog...the shepard locked on to my forearm leaving a nice set of puncture wounds....This guy then tells me that he has a child care service and that the shepard runs loose with the kids....The nurse that was treating my puncture wounds was infuriated when she heard that this dog was allowed to be around 5 year-old kids as she had seen numerous kids with their faces shredded by out of control dogs....She said the fact that the dog had bitten people before made the dog a prime candidate for a dirt nap...eventually the dog was put to sleep because of it's biting habits...I would think that any dog owner would be very wary of this happening to their dog and keep a tight leash on their hound especially at a crag...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 18, 2011 - 10:07pm PT
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I'm with Ron in wondering if there isn't more (a lot more) to this story? It seems quite a "coincidence" that ex'es where involved. As Ron said, dogs pick up on things, and I wonder whether bad vibes put out by the dog owner and partner and/or the victim may have contributed. I also still wonder if the dog was aggressive from the beginning and just how aggressively the victim "pushed" the dog away.
The more I hear about this, the more I wonder if the lesson here is that exes who are not on good terms should just stay away from each other. Poor dog may just have ended up in an ex-lovers' spat.
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
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Bernie is still available for your cuddly cougar (Abby)..... but he's a rescue and........he BITES! Thanks, al! I'll let AbbyTheFruitBatCougar know... but she'll likely give Bernie a run for his money b/c she's a rescue, too!
The more I hear about this, the more I wonder if the lesson here is that exes who are not on good terms should just stay away from each other. Poor dog may just have ended up in an ex-lovers' spat. And NOW you would be looking for fodder for As The Dog Bite Turns...
Yes, the dog that bit me belongs to an ex. From TEN YEARS AGO.
IMO, irrelevant, which was exactly why I never mentioned it.
As 426 pointed out earlier, this particular climbing area is linear, the routes are stacked close and the trail is right on the base of the rock. Short of scheduling our climbing at separate areas or at separate times, or one of both of us giving up an activity at which we both are good and enjoy, the option that has worked for the past 10 years is to do what grown-up, adult human beings do: be civil.
What a novel concept...
:)
Edited to say THANK YOU ALL for your thoughts and well wishes. This truly is a special place. We may not always agree, but support is always there. And honestly, it'd be boring as shyte if we DID always agree!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 19, 2011 - 01:50am PT
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This bite should be reported in the county in which it occurred. this probably can be done online. From the LA County website:
What bites to report? All animal bites to people are legally reportable in Los Angeles County
Who has to report? All people with knowledge of the bite. Locally most reports come from animal control agencies, physicians, and veterinarians, but anyone may report a bite.
Other than it being legally required, why report? The two primary reasons for reporting animal bites are:
Rabies Control. Reporting allows the local public health authority to investigate whether the biting animal may have transmitted rabies to the bite victim. Although rabies is currently not very common in Los Angeles County, rabies is endemic in our local bats and can be transmitted to other mammals and to people. Animals are constantly being brought into Los Angeles County from other counties, states and countries where the risk of rabies is higher than it is here. The risk of rabies in local animals can increase or decrease over time.
Animal Bite Data. Reporting allows local public health authority to track data and trends in animal bites to people within the local community.
http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/vet/biteintro.htm
A person may think, why should I mess around with this? When the next person gets injured, if you did not report, then it is on your head.......
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jan 19, 2011 - 09:53am PT
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Samantha--just be sure when you have your
bear spray or whatever--you might have to
use it on the pet owner too--don't hesitate--
JUST DO IT.
You shouldn't have to worry about some dog
attacking you at a crag.
Hope it's healing up okay!!!!
:-)
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That's Papajoto to you son!!!!!
Social climber
Oatmeal Arizona
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Jan 19, 2011 - 11:43am PT
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If your dog does not immediately respond to voice commands, it should not be off a leash.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 19, 2011 - 04:16pm PT
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Dogs "SHUD" be on LEASHES when outdoors and supervised at ALL times...
Supervised, yes. Leashed, no.
Depends on the owner, dog, and place.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 19, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
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troll, Silver
I thought this was about wusses with dogs that have their girlfriends stand up for them on the net.
Who is this guy?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 19, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
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c'mon silver!
Really!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 19, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
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Sorry Silver, not gonna happen.
I can appreciate the fact that you don't like dogs but like I said, there's a time and place for everything. Even letting well trained dogs off leash.
What if you had a deep seated resentment of horses? Keep 'em in their pastures or in the barn at all times? A pissed off horse with a rider on it can wreak havoc. I've seen it.
It's all in the training with horses, just as it is with dogs.
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Gene
climber
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Jan 19, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
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I wouldn't bring a dog to a crag
Good
even if I had one.
Even better!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 19, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
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The California Health and Safety Code, Section 121690, mandates that the governing body of
each city, or county shall maintain or provide a rabies control shelter system and
a rabies control program which includes companion animal immunization and licensing; stray
animal control; animal bite reporting, investigation, and animal quarantine.
Domestic dogs or cats that bite humans must be placed in quarantine and watched for signs of
rabies for ten days following the exposure date regardless of the animal’s vaccination status, or
else killed immediately and tested for rabies in an approved public health laboratory. If an
isolated dog or cat is healthy at the end of the ten-day period, there is no risk of rabies exposure
from the original bite wound.
http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/citycouncil/2006citycouncil/packet/061306/2006-06-13%20Item%2003%20Rabies%20Quarantine%20Regs.pdf
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Jan 19, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
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So let me get this straight...Chubby chick gets bitten by dog owned by guy who dumped her.
There's really only one burning question. How long did it take him to train the dog to nip the bitch?
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matisse
climber
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Jan 19, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
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I wouldn't bring a dog to a crag even if I had one
I want my own crag.
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Gene
climber
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Jan 19, 2011 - 05:19pm PT
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Thanks, Matisse.
I was about to get vulgar with canyoncat.
g
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 19, 2011 - 05:19pm PT
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Its not just training it's also personality. Some dogs are born friendly, some are skittish.
Size also comes into play. A Rottweiler needs to be better supervised than a chihauhau.
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troutboy
Trad climber
Newark, DE
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Jan 19, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
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So let me get this straight...Chubby chick gets bitten by dog owned by guy who dumped her.
There's really only one burning question. How long did it take him to train the dog to nip the bitch?
Damn, if you look at that bite pic and think Blackbird is "chubby", you probably think Karen Carpenter belonged on World's Biggest Loser!
TS
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Jan 19, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
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I've always felt the little dogs should be better supervised than the big dogs. A lot of those little dogs seem to have short man complex.
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troutboy
Trad climber
Newark, DE
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Jan 19, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
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Tennessee has some crazy-ass dog bite statutes (e.g., the owner is not liable for a bite that occurs on his property or other non-commercial property where he and the dog had the owner's permission - so, presumably, if a mailman gets bitten, he's screwed, unless):
A dog owner may be held civilly liable for the damages caused by his dog under the "scienter" cause of action, also known as "common law strict liability" and the "one bite rule." In Fletcher v. Richardson, 603 S.W.2d 734, 735 (Tenn. 1980), the court stated:
"The owner or keeper of the dog is not answerable for injuries done by it when in a place it had a right to be, unless the dog was in fact vicious or otherwise dangerous, the owner or keeper knew, or under the circumstances should have known (sic), of the dangerous disposition of the animal, and the injuries resulted from the known vicious or dangerous propensity of the animal. The basic key to recovery of damages for injuries caused by a dog is the knowledge of the owner or keeper that the animal is vicious or has mischievous propensities."
Plaintiffs suing for injuries or death caused by a dog bite must prove three elements. “First, they must prove that the defendant owned the dog. Second, they must prove that the defendant’s dog caused the injuries. Third, they must prove that the defendants knew or should have known about the dog’s dangerous propensities.” Eden v. Johnson, No. 01A01-9603-CV-00141, 1996 WL 474428, at *2 (Tenn. Ct. App., Aug. 21, 1996) (citing Thompson v. Thompson, 749 S.W.2d 468, 470 (Tenn. Ct. App. 1988)); See Fletcher v. Richardson, 603 S.W.2d 734, 735 (Tenn. 1980) (“the basic key to recovery of damages for injuries caused by a dog is the knowledge of the owner or keeper that the animal is vicious or has mischievous propensities”).
Of course, BB said she was not going to sue, but because the owner apparently acknowledged the dog had bitten before, all three criteria would be easily met.
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troutboy
Trad climber
Newark, DE
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Jan 19, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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What, no mustard ?
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neversummer
Mountain climber
perris, cali
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Jan 19, 2011 - 06:00pm PT
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my buddy brought his 5yr old nephew to the crag and wouldnt ya know ....he fackin' bit me, buddy said hes losing his baby teeth......
...so i clubbed him
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 19, 2011 - 06:35pm PT
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xtreme Pizza 1630 Cypress st Walnut Creek ca 94596
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 20, 2011 - 01:01am PT
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A bit of solidarity with Blackbird, and most all the
people who have taken the time to post on this thread.
The overwhelming majority of posts here express the thoughts:
1. Leave your dog at home, when you go climbing at an area where you may encounter other people.
2. If you are unable to leave your dog at home, keep it (them) on lease and under control.
Do any of you have a problem with that?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 20, 2011 - 01:30am PT
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Yeah - and then there are the climbers who do those things....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 20, 2011 - 01:37am PT
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I dunno - I tend to view hogging flat spots as a pretty serious thing.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 20, 2011 - 01:44am PT
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It's purely to reduce occurrence of El Cap neck. Really. Plus you get a better view of the climber, and are more stably positioned in the event of potential energy converting into kinetic.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 20, 2011 - 01:51am PT
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Good point - but I don't have a small child to help with such things. And the cat sleeps more than me.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jan 20, 2011 - 03:55am PT
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I dunno - I tend to view hogging flat spots as a pretty serious thing.
quote of the day
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tenesmus
Trad climber
slc
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Jan 20, 2011 - 08:20am PT
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Leave your f*#king dog(s) at home.
+1000,000,000
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altelis
Mountain climber
DC
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Jan 20, 2011 - 10:23am PT
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My take is that if you don't want to climb with dogs around than you, as a person with free-will, need to choose to climb at a crag that doesn't allow dogs, or at the very least requires dogs to be on leash.
This is, as far as I can tell, the majority of crags out there. I, as an owner of a well behaved dog, try hard to climb at crags where the land manager permits dogs of leash. If the crag I'm going to requires the dog to be on leash? I leave her at home.
Caveat: of course any dog off leash needs to be well trained, have NO history of aggressive behavior toward people or other dogs, does NOT go through people's stuff, jump on them, etc.
But if you make the decision to climb somewhere where dogs are legally allowed off leash, you have decided you are going to deal with that. If you are climbing somewhere where dogs aren't allowed off leash, well then, you have every right to complain and be pissed. And anyone who would take their dog climbing in an area dogs aren't off leash in needs to reconsider their motivation for taking their dog with them...(of course, rare exceptions apply)
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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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Jan 20, 2011 - 10:33am PT
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To the last poster, even where dogs are allowed off leash they are required to be under voice control. Many of the dogs (if not most)of the dogs I see are not under voice control and I did not choose to deal with that just by going there.
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altelis
Mountain climber
DC
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Jan 20, 2011 - 10:48am PT
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I fully agree with you.
The spirit of my post was: I make the extra effort to climb places where I can take my dog and let her off leash. When I do that I follow the rules, which almost always includes dog under voice control. This means either me, my wife, or a partner who my dog has a history of obeying will be in a position to control her. We never bring her multipitching, ever.
IF you don't want to be around dogs, don't go to a crag that allows them off leash. If you don't mind dogs, but don't want them in your mug, that's fine. Don't whine about dogs around at a crag where they are allowed. Of course, if that dog isn't well controlled, well behaved, shitting on the trail, by all means, whine. And not here. Tell the dog owner. Some owner's just don't get it. I try (in as much of a non-holier-than-though way, though I clearly am, hehe) to be proactive about dog owners whose dogs aren't in control. Ruins it for the rest of us.
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ME Climb
Trad climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Jan 20, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
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I have 2000+ hours working with dogs, and have taken 10,000+ bites from dogs (all of them in bite suits or with sleeves). Some of the things I have learned in all of that time is that even a working dog which is constantly receiving traing cannot be controlled all of the time. Dogs have the mentality of a two year old. They will try to "cheat" and sneak anything they can. I am always on guard and don't trust them, especially one I am not familiar with. Sometimes familiarity with the dog will make me trust them less. I understand why dogs do what they do and understand what is needed to change behavior.
I have two Cavaliers which are true companion dogs (bred to sit with the ladies in England) that have extremely high prey drives (meaning they like to hunt and chase things). The enjoy being outside and think that everyone they see should be their new best friend. I have taken them hiking with me when I can watch them and monitor their behavior. I have never taken them when I climb. I am either focused on climbing or belaying, leaving me no time to monitor the dogs. To be courteous to others I never take my dogs anywhere I cannot keep an eye on them and monitor them continually.
To me being a responsible dog owner is understanding that not everyone is a dog person and many people either truly dislike dogs or are afraid of them.
My thoughts on dogs at a crag are that if you are going to bring one make sure it is leashed and controlled. Make sure that it is not where it could bother other people. You should respect the others around you and not force your beliefs/ opinions upon the others around you. As you may have the right to have your dog with you, others have the right to have a dog free environment.
I guess boils down to treat others like you want to be treated.
Eric
Edited for typo
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Jan 20, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
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Me?, a dog lover who has raised dogs from Mastiffs to Dachshunds.
People who think their dog(s) are humans?, definitely beyond annoying.
People who have a dog that has even nipped at someone, and still haven't either fixed the problem or gave the dog away to somebody who could, impossible for me to understand.
I just can't begin to relate to the position that it's okay under any circumstances to let my dog remain believing that biting or nipping is acceptable behavior. I would feel so horrible if any of my dogs ever nipped at anyone, under any circumstances. Could they have, as some have suggested is possible for all dogs, I don't believe they could. I raise a dog it is a delta, lover dog. It's not thinking to protect anybody or anything, it =knows= that's my job. It's not thinking to make a judgement call, it =knows= that is also my job.
And, if I don't have what it takes to get a particular dog to be a delta lover dog with no possibility of nipping at anyone under any circumstance then that dog is beyond my training abilities and it would not be responsible for me to keep him.
I feel sorry for the dogs of people who want an attack, protect, or security dog. The dog's life is much more unhappy, stressful, and without priveledges in my eyes. But, if that's what you (third person plural) want, keep it at home in a very secure yard. Whatever you do, don't bring it around me... I'll turn it into a happy lover dog and you'll have to start all over with another dog to get your biter dog back. ;)
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neversummer
Mountain climber
perris, cali
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Jan 20, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
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it has alot to do with the breed too......
some are naturaly prone to chase smaller animals etc.... i.e hunting dogs
some are natural protectors i.e rotwieller..and so on and so on....
people should research the breed they want to bring into there family and way of life, instead of picking it based on looks
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jan 20, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
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But see, senor Fattrad, I would be horrified and really scared to get a big wet kiss by a dog. Some people don't want to be touched, slobbered on, or kissed by a dog. And no one wants to be nipped at or bit.
As it was noted above, "To me being a responsible dog owner is understanding that not everyone is a dog person and many people either truly dislike dogs or are afraid of them."
I wish some folks would recognize that.
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Chairman Meow
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Jan 20, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
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The shirt says, "Love your Planet. Kill your dog."
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Jan 20, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
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You ever work with Siberians??? Strong willed, stubborn and lovable, mine bit the gardner when he got too close to the brand new cow bone. Everyone else got big wet kisses.
Check this list:
http://petrix.com/dogint/intelligence.html
When you get past the top 20 it's not so fun, to me. Especially in Siberian territory... Boxers are right there and they are pretty dumb, imo. Now, don't get me wrong, they'll all come out as happy lover dogs if you give them to me. But, "stupid is as stupid does." lol I can make an insecure dog secure (hence happy) but I can't make a dumb one smart. As you go from 1 to 79 on the list obedience gets tougher and tougher. The reason it gets not fun to me is that I have to match their intensity. For the top 10 dogs that is practically no more than talking in a whisper. For the last 40 probably a shock collar set to redline. lol Effective, but I don't enjoy that. Best dog in the world to train, a Border Collie mutt. :)
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jan 20, 2011 - 09:17pm PT
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Rudder, we just got a border collie mutt. He already comes back--like a shot--on a whistle, raised hand or voice call. And I'm no dog whisperer.
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R.B.
Big Wall climber
Land of the Lahar
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Jan 20, 2011 - 09:52pm PT
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I walk about 50 feet away, and then yell at the owners (two girls) "your friggin dog just bit me in the kneecap!" They respond: "He has never bitten anyone BEFORE!" I said, well, he has NOW!
Every owner thinks their dog is a good dog and (edit: that they won't bite anyone), ... until the first time they do. Any dog can bite or nip, even your dog or a yappin chihuahua
I do not trust dogs, and will kick one in the snout if they come near me again when I am climbing or hiking. Why? See above.
PLEASE LEAVE THE HOUNDS HOME!
(edit: you as an owner can face criminal charges and get sued for a dog bite)
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 20, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
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Can you name any dog experts - guys who actually know what they're doing around dogs - who say the proper way to deal with a dog is to exhibit fear and aggression toward it?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 20, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
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Would that be leaded or unleaded fear and aggression?
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altelis
Mountain climber
DC
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Jan 20, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
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We've got a Bearded/Border Collie Mutt.
She's got (most) of the border collie smarts.
She's got the affection and mellower family demeanor of the beardies.
Luckily she's not got a full beardie coat, but it is long enough i think a good shaving would make things easier!
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Jan 21, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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I have two Cavaliers which are true companion dogs (bred to sit with the ladies in England) that have extremely high prey drives (meaning they like to hunt and chase things). The enjoy being outside and think that everyone they see should be their new best friend. I have taken them hiking with me when I can watch them and monitor their behavior. I have never taken them when I climb. I am either focused on climbing or belaying, leaving me no time to monitor the dogs. To be courteous to others I never take my dogs anywhere I cannot keep an eye on them and monitor them continually.
To me being a responsible dog owner is understanding that not everyone is a dog person and many people either truly dislike dogs or are afraid of them.
My thoughts on dogs at a crag are that if you are going to bring one make sure it is leashed and controlled. Make sure that it is not where it could bother other people. You should respect the others around you and not force your beliefs/ opinions upon the others around you. As you may have the right to have your dog with you, others have the right to have a dog free environment.
I guess boils down to treat others like you want to be treated.
Eric
I dig that kinda thoughtfulness and consideration of others. We are all we know for sure we have in this universe... we should support each other. Nice post, Eric. :)
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