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Enf0rcer
Boulder climber
San Francisco, California
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 7, 2010 - 03:01pm PT
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I was climbing Table Manners 5.8 on the main wall yesterday 12/7. About a third of the way up, I heard the hollow shifting of rock. I thought I was hearing things so I continued on.
My left foot was smearing the left side of the chimney and my right was in a drop knee back step position most of the way up, pushing out on the AC Devil Dog column.
About two thirds of the way up I heard it again. I yelled down to my partner if she heard anything and she confirmed what I feared. I carried on carefully, trying not to put too much pressure on that side. When I reached the top bolts, I nervously perched on the same columns to set myself up to be lowered like many climbers before me.
I guess we all tend to keep our guard down when climbs are listed in a guide book. It is ultimately our responsibility to inspect anything we get on. AC Devil Dog Column is a massive refrigerator size column about 80 ft high, weighting a few tons. However it is fractured all around and detached from the face in a few spots.
Be careful out there!!!
Benny
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Prod
Trad climber
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With Granite and limestone weigning in at about 165 pounds a cubic foot, I'd say it is a bit heavier than a few tons.
80' high 3' wide and 3' thick would be 720 cu feet x 165 comes out to 118,000 pounds or 60 tons.
That would squash a few flies....
Prod.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Can you calculate how much force it would take for a fall onto a cam to move the column and rip the cam?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, thanks for warning folks....
should there be warning signs around, if folks are tending to think that due to "being in the books" a false sense of security IS there, then??
just wondering, at least warning signs, give someone the chance to rethink, at the last minute... or an option to change plans...
thanks agains...
supertopo is so great this way, with folks that care about giving out "scouts" and such...
:)
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Prod
Trad climber
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Can you calculate how much force it would take for a fall onto a cam to move the column and rip the cam?
Nope.... Pageing Dr Ed H.
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Enf0rcer
Boulder climber
San Francisco, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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Don't know how basalt column react to water erosion but the area looks like it constantly changes quite frequently. I can picture waterfalls on all sides emptying into the pit during the rainy season. The bottom of the columns are not visibleand sit on a pile of loose blocks from previous rock fall. Who knows how it's sitting below.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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i doubt you can do much with figuring out what force it would take to send that sucker. You know nothing about the friction that keeps it in place.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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yowza
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dfinnecy
Social climber
'stralia
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If someone sends AC Devil Dog to the pit of Hades get that plummet on film so we can all raise a toast.
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drunkenmaster
Social climber
santa rosa
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finally something useful on the forum - very nice enf0rcer. and yes please video the plummeting devil dog pillar if anyone banks it. i always thought that route was bolted whacked anyways - sayonara :)
but until then a frkn warning sign might actually be good or something??
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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It's my favorite basalt climb. For me, many basalt climbs look a lot more fun than they are. That one is as awesome as it looks. If it goes, glad I got to have my fun already.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Its not if, but when, that entire cliff goes...
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pvalchev
Social climber
Mountain View, CA / Calgary, AB
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Did the fridge a few weeks ago (first time in the Grotto), it is a very neat and memorable climb (so are the cracks!). It would be sad to see it go - how about instead of jacking it/destroying it, pump a few gallons of glue behind it? :)
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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ac devil dog is a special case.
the entire column is detached and sitting on a short stack of choss. that thing makes me really nervous. it's probably been like that through god knows how many earthquakes, but still.
if it goes while folks are actually in the pit, it might take out everyone down in that hole.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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ok, I can't resist...
...but this is just a calculation, not an endorsement to tip that column
note also that if the column is leaning back, you'll need more force and more range to tip it...
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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i'm convinced that a couple hi-jacks and/or a cumalong could pull that thing down without too much effort. but it would wipe out everything in the direction of pull.
there's a decent chance that there's a perfect finger splitter dead center behind it.
good redneck project for a day when there's no one in the hole.
heh
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Ed and Dingus, you both turned this thread into gold. Thanks!
And if folks are interested in climbing ricketty blocks... I invite you to a little face pitch to the right of Overhang Bypass. If you start up directly under the prominent roof on Lower Cathedral Rock, and wander left on 5.8 dirty bushy squeeze pitches, you'll reach a short face pitch with minimal/no pro, and then top out over a stack of 3 blocks each the size of a small washing machine or large microwave, and you better pull down not out. For some odd reason we don't have pics of that section while doing it, but I've got a pic somewhere of my partner reaching the fat ledge above it.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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so cross posted the Beartouni's calcs
LOL!
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
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Archimedes used to say (in the Doric speech of Syracuse) “Give me a place to stand, and with a lever I will move the whole world.”
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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same could be said for el cap or HD, or any of us!
"it's not if, but when..."
meanwhile- who wants to go trundle?
=)
edit
oh and btw- ed, depending on what the true scenario is at the base, it could possibly require less force.
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Enf0rcer
Boulder climber
San Francisco, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2010 - 03:17am PT
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Wow Ed you really put in some effort in formulating what it would take to topple the column. But I don't even think it would take even that much.
I weight around 180 lbs lets say with the rack I had that day I was about 190. Stemming off the opposite Column and a drop knee in-step position on the opposite side probably doubled the force exerted to around 400 lbs of pressure pushing out on the column in question. The 2 times I heard the column shift were probably in the 2 areas where its most vulnerable--the first horizontal crack through column and near the top of the column where is weights less.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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not a lot of effort,
if the C-O-G is lower you get to use the lever... so less force
and the base may be a different shape,
etc
etc
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Fer crissakes... would someone just go kick that thing over? ;)
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Thanks Enf0rcer, useful reminder. Thanks Jerry, very interesting photo.
I had a nasty groundfall injury at the Grotto once, due to a hold breaking before the first bolt of one of the bolted routes. It was an unfortunate bit of timing - I was reaching for the next hold with my left hand when the hold in my right exploded.
There have been other injuries there due to rockfall from above the cracks.
It's just good to remember the rock quality of that place in general.
Phyl
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Prod
Trad climber
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ok, I can't resist...
...but this is just a calculation, not an endorsement to tip that column
Hahahahaha.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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You guys could just do like the Egyptians when they raised an obelisk -
dig a hole and tip it into it.
This one came with instructions:
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Poulpy
Sport climber
California
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Due to the geometry of the cam, the force applied on the side of the crack is way bigger than the actual fall impact. with a C4 (camming angle of 14.5°) the impact force is multiply by 3.73. so even a small fall gonna make it move.
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Michelle
Social climber
Menlo
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"There is no problem that cannot be solved by a suitable application of high explosives" - US Army Demolitions School
duh.
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Aaron Johnson
climber
Bear Valley, CA
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Yipes! I just climbed this route yesterday. Didn't hear or feel any movement but still not cool.
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kennoyce
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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"Due to the geometry of the cam, the force applied on the side of the crack is way bigger than the actual fall impact. with a C4 (camming angle of 14.5°) the impact force is multiply by 3.73. so even a small fall gonna make it move."
Just wanted to point out that this is incorrect so people don't keep using this number. A free body diagram and simple math will tell you that for a parallel sided crack with a camming angle of 14.5° the outward force is 1.93 times the downward force applied to the cam.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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First let me say I LOVE TRUNDLING!!!!!!!!
Second let me say DONT YOU DARE TRUNDLE AC DEVIL DOG!!!!!!!!!!!!
Basalt columns move deal with it, if you dont want the risk, dont go there, bay area noobs....... spread the word if you must.......
I am a old school Sonora local, have been climbing that crag for a long time, if you trundle that route it will f*#k up the entire grotto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not a JOKE , NOT FUNNY, DO NOT DO THIS
Maybe we all should just quit climbing and start watching more TV, its safer.
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Sagebrush Sally
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Ca
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I grew up in Sonora and the grotto is my home crag. I have climbed that column hundreds of times. It would be a huge mistake to my mind to purposely destroy ACDD in the name of safety. There are many detached pieces of rock in the world and they must be given their due respect. We as climbers must use our own judgement in deciding what is safe to climb for ourselves. The character and the history of the grotto would be seriously damaged if a bunch of jack-toting hooligans from the bay area took it upon themselves to go pull down the column. Please do not do this. It is not your right!
There are many classic routes that have moving pieces on them. The Durrance route on Devils Tower is a prime example. If you put your back against the wall on the leaning column pitch and push, you can wobble it a good 3 inches. However, nobody is clamoring to get a bottle jack out and knock the sucker off. A huge piece of climbing history would be lost, the character of the Durrance would be forever altered, and I would personally feel immense hatred towards whatever self-righteous jackass decided to take it upon himself to destroy the column.
Instead, there are multiple postings telling climbers that the column moves and to exercise extreme caution when climbing on and around it. If you have that knowledge and still want to climb, then you are, as in every other aspect of climbing, taking a calculated risk whose outcome is your own responsibility.
Please just leave the column alone.
Spread the word, by all means. Let's put up a sign and let people make their own decisions, but I am begging you, please do not trundle the column.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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hahahahahaha!
the drama!
where's the rebar when you need it?
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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DMT,
please jack off in the privacy of your own home and leave the grotto alone.
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jonmeek16
Sport climber
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
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Hello All.
I recently moved to the central valley, (greater modesto area) and I'm looking for beta for this area. seems the book is out of print. Can anyone turn me onto a topo for grotto or the surrounding walls? All I've found is the senior wall.
Thx!
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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I guess Dingus was right. I hear it only took a couple of cranks to send that thing. What a f#*king mess though.
Dave from earth
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Call SNAC
Sierra Nevada Adventure Co in Sonora 1-209-532-5621. Do not know if their Arnold is still running 1-209-795-9310.
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BFK
climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 12, 2012 - 11:32am PT
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As if the column wasn't sketchy enough,... the anchors are now very concerning IMOH. I was there Nov. 2012 and the right cold-shut is in serious need of replacement and would not recommend anyone use it to be lowered off or even rap-off (I traversed over to Rawhide chains and rapped).
The cold-shut is significantly worn-through at an angle. After reading a about a recent fatality in Switzerland due to a partially worn fixed draw that cut the climbers rope, I can see the potential developing for a similar situation.
http://www.rockandice.com/news/2301-fatal-accident-fixed-draw-cuts-rope
B
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 12, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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hey there say, BFK...
thanks for sharing... i was wondering when i saw this bumped up, how
these rock columns were doing...
good to get a recent report...
also, as to dingus' quote:
A little Grotto lore...
used to climb there a lot with the Mo-Town crowd. A guy I knew from the gym there (Stonehenge, I think?) was and probably still is, mutantly strong.
He was meeting someone up there and was early, first to arrive. So to kill time he was soloing up and down the easier cracks. Perhaps the easiest crack at the Grotto is the crack along the right side of the Devil Dog pillar and he was up on that thing.
Up and down he'd go, never breaking a sweat. It was easy as pie for him.
If you look at that image I posted above, and look at the Devil Dog pillar, you may see the big 'hole' in it about a 1/3 to half way up... see it?
There used to be a block in that hole, bout the size of a file cabinet drawer. My friend jammed one hand beneath it, then reached up with the other hand and pulled on the top if it.
It shifted and pinned his lower hand in the rock - aka 72 hours. He was friggin stuck, he could not get it out. So he stood there... and stood there... for like a half hour before the next party showed up.
They helped free him and they also toppled the block. It sits there at the base to this day, folks often park their packs on it, or use it as a seat to change their shoes.
Its not uncommon to find blocks on the Grotto floor with chalk on them...
DMT
very interesting save, for the guy, :O
this was posted a bit after i had first read the thread and i missed this
'bit of history' there... :O
thanks for sharing...
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Nov 12, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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NUKE IT!
The column, not the thread.
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Nov 12, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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I still support explosives.
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