Is wireless a demon?

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k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 3, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
My friends don't allow wireless in their house, they say the radiation kills them.
They are serious.

Would your day be significantly different without wireless communication?
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Dec 3, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
my balls might not tingle so much from the laptop?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 3, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
that science is still out...

not sure if "wireless" anything is damaging enough to actually cause damage that is noticable over a single lifetime..

But that's just my opin
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Dec 3, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
All that unsolicited porn wafting through the brain can't be good...
Caught, did you get your crib back?
flakyfoont

Trad climber
carsoncity nv
Dec 3, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
k-man, do your friends have a microwave oven? some cell phone , wireless devices are in the 2.4ghz to 5.4ghz range . look at the model/serial # tag on microwave ovens for the frequency and power level outputs. 600mhz,800mhz, 900mhz, 1,2ghz up to 5.4ghz, and power levls up to 2200watts. we dont put these ovens up next to our heads, like we do cell phones, and cell phones out puts are usually 200-500 milliwatts.
I used to use a bluetooth on my ear, and got bad headaches on the side of my head . i changed ears with the bluetooth, and the headache also changes sides. Since I have ceased bluetooth ear devices , my headaches have also ceased. I have a commercial FCC radio license, and have been microwave certified since 1975, I have never been diagnosed (yet) with any cancers.
But i know better than to stand in front of a waveguide,or rhombic antenna
during transmission. Microwave energy can cause tissue damage , and RF burns can be nasty, but phone manufacturers say this is not true, at low power levels. Sorry for the long tirade with a moot point.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Dec 3, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
Maddona Is LEB.
WBraun

climber
Dec 3, 2010 - 04:44pm PT
K-man -- "My friends don't allow wireless in their house ..."

I put mine on the roof. You definitely don't want it next to your computer like lots of people do.

That's plain stupid.

I have a commercial grade wireless setup that allows the wireless router at a remote location by being powered over the Ethernet cable, poe.
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Dec 3, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
Madonna is the LEB? Well, THAT explains a lot.
Wireless signals are everywhere....there is no escape.
crøtch

climber
Dec 3, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
Hey DMT,

I work with a bunch of former Navy fire control guys. They fix my machines, and they are all badasses IMO. Props.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Dec 3, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
It is, however another chain that we proletariat must ultimately deal with.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 3, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
the short answer, no....

the fun (geeky) answer: http://searchtasks.answersthatwork.com/tasklist.php?File=WirelessDaemon

Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Dec 3, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
Your friends should be fine as long as they keep their tinfoil hats on.

Me, I probably get dosed occasionally with the X-rays from the EBT CT scanners I work on everyday.
RF radiation is the least of my concerns.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Dec 3, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
This guy does not worry about electromagnetic fields;

WBraun

climber
Dec 4, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
Most consumer grade wireless routers operate a 2.4ghz the same frequency as your microwave oven although at very low power.

Usually around 100 to 150 milliwats.

Now that's continuous on time. Not that it's running for a few minutes.

If it's close to where you are living 2, 3, 4 feet for extended periods you are being "cooked".

Most guys in the commercial wireless business will never want an antenna radiating that close to their heads for extended periods.

If one wants to disagree then be my guest and you have my blessings to go fry your brain ...... :-)
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 4, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
If it's close to where you are living 2, 3, 4 feet for extended periods you are being "cooked".

Well, more like having a flashlight pointed at you continuously.

Although for purely operational reasons it doesn't make sense to have it siting on top of your puter.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Dec 5, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
thanks for the interesting post DMT.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 5, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
cooked?
really Werner, you know better...

cooking with microwaves means exciting the molecular rotation resonance of the "food," where the food contains polar molecules with large dipole moments... that is, it acts like an antenna tuned to a particular frequency, 2.45 GHz is a typical frequency corresponding to water. That resonance has a "width," a frequency range that it shows the largest effect, probably not greater than 10% of the frequency value (but a quick look on the web didn't pop it out).

That means that once you are off the resonant frequency, you don't cook anymore. The difference between solid water (ice) and liquid water is easy to demonstrate in your microwave, it's hard to melt ice in one...so a small shift in the dipole frequency has a large change in how much energy is absorbed.

Moving the molecules around heats the "food." I put food in quotes because human bodies are like the meat you might cook in one of these things.

Now a WiFi station does transmit in the region of 2.4 GHz (because it is local and can tolerate energy loss to atmospheric water vapor, this frequency region is not used for long range communication) but the WiFi uses a spread spectrum transmission mode, spreading its transmissions over a variety of frequencies, but the total power radiated over these different frequencies is of order less than 100mW (that's one tenth of a watt, your microwave oven produces 700 W of microwave power, about 10,000 times more power, and on a frequency designed to cook).

Aside from cooking, there are no documented problems with microwave exposures, especially at low levels. With large power output, the antenna may "leak" power into many frequency bands some of which overlap molecular resonances, with enough power you might cook, but this is for very large power output, not those typical for your WiFi station....

...or cell phone, which work on many of the same principles, though the frequencies are different.

WBraun

climber
Dec 5, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
I when I said "cooked" it was a broad street slang for being harmful.

Lot a guys say that.

But I like I said previously, if you believe there's no harm in sticking a continuous radiating 2.4ghz xmiter near your head for long periods daily then be my guest.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 5, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
but "cooking" is what you'd have to be worried about...

...what else is going on Werner? you got references? or just being cautious
WBraun

climber
Dec 5, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
The effects of the EMF, electro-pollution are cumulative.

It does affect the nervous system.

You'll see, stick it in close proximity to your head for the next 2-3 years where you sleep Ed.

You're a scientist, do the test on yourself .....
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Dec 5, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
Dominate effect of RF energy is heating, so of the ~1 Watt of cell phone power coming out mostly every so slightly warms up the side of your head (it only transmits that much when you are nearly out of range, and then only in bursts, and then a good 80-90% goes into the air, not your head).

However a secondary effect is that it the cells in your body sort of speed up their processes in the the presence of RF energy. It is used to encourage healing after some surgeries and injuries for example. It also encourages cancers to grow faster, so things that would turn into a cancer down the road can be turned into cancers sooner (i.e. it can let things get those cells outstrip some of the normal immune systems actions that would otherwise suppress them). Basically it is established science that strong RF can move the process along leading to cancers as a potential side effect of strong RF energy exposure.

The link is weak, but there. My guess is that we will eventually see tighter regulation on the radiated RF energy from various widgets, primarily ones close to our bodies (cell phone, blue tooth, etc). But the RF energy from WIFI signals is pretty small (10x less power than your cell phone), and is usually pretty far from your body making it 100-1000 times weaker yet.

So if you are worried about RF energy, limit how much you talk on your cell phone. If you are still worried, get rid of it. Figure our where the local cell towers are, and don't live next to them. WAY down the list is your WIFI router.

Also, ask yourself this: If RF energy is so bad, why are people claiming brain cancer is the boogie man, but we don't hear about a huge increase in hand cancer, which would be the most likely first thing to be effected.
nature

climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
Dec 5, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
for what it's worth you might be able to do some research on this site.

http://www.interferencetechnology.com


I built about 80% of that site (not responsible for content - just ALL the functionality on the BE).


I heard a story recently about someone who lived next to someone with Wifi that was so sensitive (headaches, nausea, etc.) that asked their neighbors to not run Wifi. The neighbors were not down with that idea (can't blame them). the person sensitive to the wifi ended up selling their house and moving.
WBraun

climber
Dec 5, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
This link is for ED a pfd from Stanford Research Institute on continuous wave microwave radiation exposed to rats. It was done in 1974.

http://www.magdahavas.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Mortarity_in_Rats_Exposed_to_CW_Microwave_Radiation.pdf
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Dec 5, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
Werner, just note that the power levels in that study were cooking kinds of levels (lowest levels were around 8 W per square inch on a poor rat, or roughly 100W hitting the poor rat. Rat-kabob anyone?

Low level amounts well below where cooking results is a totally different arena, and where research is much murkier (and where industry funded research and independently funded research come to surprisingly different results). I'm convinced there is a net negative effect, but I've yet see convincing research that it is a big factor or a small factor compared to other factors (eating at McDonalds, driving cars, etc).
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 5, 2010 - 06:01pm PT
so it would be better to keep cold rather than warm to prevent cancers?

if warming were the only effect, then it would be hard to worry about the slight RF warming... once again, there needs to be a coupling mechanism since the RF in the cell phone (and in the WiFi) is not tuned to a molecular resonance...

as far as getting cancer, I believe the likelihood is something in the neighborhood of 30%, so it is very likely that I will have cancer, but not because of RF exposure, probably environmental exposure to chemicals and/or a genetic predisposition

to get a statistically sensible result the study would have to be very large since these effects are so subtle, there are many other factors that have a higher significance than the RF exposure...

...however if you want to be cautious, that's your business, we all make a set of choices based on some personal calculation which usually has more to do with faith or "superstition" than with a rational decision based on actual data.

It is ironic that we'd worry about the RF and go free soloing... but that is our choice...
WBraun

climber
Dec 5, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
You guys are just concentrating on cancer.

Stupid way of looking at this.

Rf radiation health problems do not necessarily mean only cancer.

Good grief ...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 5, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
not a very large effect, Werner... if any can be separated from everything else happening to us...
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Dec 5, 2010 - 06:43pm PT
Do you have a reference, Werner, other than rat studies?

Some friends of mine did diesel studies on rats, and as a control exposed them to ground up wood chips. The wood chips caused cancer in rats. Everything causes cancer in rats. Rats cause cancer in rats.


WBraun

climber
Dec 5, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
Do you have a reference, Werner, other than rat studies?

Yeah, I suggest one stick the wireless router next to your bed in close proximity to your head for a few years and we'll see.

Betcha none of ya are willing to do it .....
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Nov 30, 2016 - 01:26pm PT
tagged by Werner Braun:

William Thomas
Electromagnetic weapons "tests" in Iraq
Tue Jan 25, 2005 18:53

MICROWAVING IRAQ

"Pacifying" Rays Pose New Hazards In Iraqi
By William Thomas

On the rooftop of a shrapnel-pocked building in the ruins of Fallujah, a
team of GI's stealthily sets up a gray plastic dome about two-feet in
diameter. Keeping well back from the sight lines of the street and
nearby buildings, they plug the cable connectors on the side of the
"popper" into a power unit. The grunts have no clue what the device
does. They are just following orders.

"Most of the worker-bees that are placing these do not even know what is
inside the 'domes', just that they were told where to place them by
Intel weenies with usually no nametag," reports my source, a very well
informed combat veteran I will call "Hank".

The grunts call the plastic devices "poppers" or "domes". Once
activated, each hidden transmitter emits a widening circle of invisible
energy capable of passing through metal, concrete and human skulls up to
half a mile away. "They are saturating the area with ULF, VLF and UHF
freqs," Hanks says, with equipment derived from US Navy undersea sonar
and communications.

But its not being used to locate and talk to submarines under Baghdad.

After powering up the unit, the grunts quickly exit the area. It is
their commanders' fervent hope that any male survivors enraged by brutal
American bombardments that damaged virtually every building in this once
thriving "City of Mosques", displacing a quarter-million residents while
murdering thousands of children, women and elders in their homes lose
all incentive for further resistance and revenge.

A dedicated former soldier, whose experiences during and after Desert
Storm are chronicled in my book, Bringing The War Home, Hank stays in
close touch with his unit serving "in theater" in Iraq. When I asked how
many "poppers" are being used to irradiate Iraqi neighborhoods, he
checked and got back to me. There are "at least 25 of these that have
been deployed to theater, and used. Some have conked out and been
removed, so I do not know how many are currently active and
broadcasting."

Hank is still losing friends in Iraq, where front-line soldiers put
their current casualty figures from all causes psychological crackups and
suicides injured.

Hank also blames those at the top for hospital counts of upwards of
65,000 children killed since the 2003 invasion. He is concerned that
innocent Iraqi families and unsuspecting GIs alike are being used as
test subjects for a new generation of "psychotronic" weapons using
invisible beams across the entire electromagnetic spectrum to
selectively alter moods, behavior and bodily processes.

"The 'poppers' as they are called, are capable of using a combo of ULF,
VLF, UHF and EHF
wavelengths in any combination at the same time, sometimes using one as
a carrier wave for the others," Hank explains, in a process called
superheterodyning. The silent frequencies daily sweeping Fallujah and
other trouble spots are the same Navy "freqs that drove whales nuts and
made them go astray onto beaches."

MICROWAVING IRAQ

The Gulf War veteran observes that occupied Iraq has become a
"saturation environment" of electromagnetic radiation. Potentially
lethal electromagnetic smog from high-power US military electronics and
experimental beam weapons is placing already hard-hit local
populations-particularly children experiencing serious illness, suicidal
depression, impaired cognitive
ability, even death.

American troops constantly exposed "up close" to their own microwave
transmitters, battlefield radars and RF weapons are also seeing their
health eroded by electromagnetic sickness. It's common, Hank recalls,
for GIs to warm themselves on cold desert nights by basking in the
microwaves radiating from their QUEEMS communications and RATT radar
rigs.

Constant microwave emissions from ground-sweeping RATT rigs and SINGARS
mobile microwave networks are much more powerful than civilian microwave
cell phone nets linked in many clinical studies to maladies ranging from
asthma, cataracts, headaches, memory loss, early Alzheimer's, bad dreams
and cancer.

Even more powerful US military radars, radios and "jammers" blasting
from ground bases and overflying aircraft add to this electromagnetic
din.

This is bad enough. But this is also Iraq, Hank says, where ever-present
sand acts as miniature quartz reflectors, unpredictably amplifying the
ricocheting electronic smog so thick that if it were visible, every
vehicle in Baghdad and the surrounding Sunni Triangle would be driving
blind with their headlights on.

THE GIFT THAT KEEPS ON GIVING

This is grim news to friend and foe alike constant adrenal stress,
waterborne pollutants, infectious sand fleas,
dehydration, pharmaceutical drugs and exposure to radioactive
Uranium-238 fired in "hose 'em down" exuberance by US ground and air
cannons and cruise missiles.

As Hank puts it, DU is "the gift that keeps on giving." For the next
four billion years, medical investigators say, large populated expanses
of Kosovo, Afghanistan, Puerto Rico and Iraq will remain lethally
radioactive from Made In America depleted uranium dust.

What kind of people would do this?

Clinical tests have repeatedly shown how microwaves "rev up" incipient
cancer cells several hundred times. Triggered by nuclear radiation, and
turned rogue by electromagnetic warfare unleashed by US forces, human
cancer cells have been found to continue proliferating wildly after the
power source is turned off


MICROWAVING WOMBS AT GREENHAM COMMON
While the mobile microwave weapons currently deployed in Iraq may or may
not lead to lasting harm, rooftop "poppers" and "domes" left to radiate
for days at a time are irradiating unsuspecting families already coping
with illness, wounds, hunger and the stress of losing homes and loved
ones, whose rotting corpses cannot be buried under the sights of marine
snipers.

A preview of what lies in store for long-suffering families in Iraq can
be gleaned from Greenham Common, where the British Army reportedly used
an electromagnetic weapon against 30,000 women who had camped for nearly
two decades around that UK military base to protest the deployment of
nuclear-tipped US cruise missiles.

One day in the summer of 1984, more than 2,000 British troops suddenly
pulled back, leaving the fence unguarded. Peace mom Kim Besley recalls
that as curious women approached the gate, they "started experiencing
odd health effects: swollen tongues, changed heartbeats, immobility,
feelings of terror, pains in the upper body."

Besley found her 30-year-old daughter too ill to stand. Other symptoms
typical of electromagnetic exposure included skin burns, severe
headaches, drowsiness, post-menopausal menstrual bleeding and
menstruation at abnormal times. Besley's daughter's cycle changed to 14
days and took a year to return to normal.

Two late-term spontaneous miscarriages, impaired speech, and an apparent
circulatory failure prompted the women to begin monitoring for a
directed-energy beam, Using an EMR meter, they measured beams sweeping
their camp at 100-times normal background levels.

Another harrowing example involves the sudden illness and cancer deaths
of US embassy staff in Moscow after being deliberately targeted with
very weak pulsed microwaves by Soviet experimenters and fascinated CIA
onlookers running "Project Phoenix" in 1962.

Very Low Frequency (VLF) weapons include the dozens of "poppers"
currently deployed in Iraq, which can be dialed to or "long wave"
frequencies capable of traveling great distances through the ground or
intervening structures. As air force Lt Col. Peter L. Hays, Director of
the Institute for National Security Studies reveals, "Transmission of
long wavelength sound creates biophysical effects; nausea, loss of
bowels, disorientation, vomiting, potential internal organ damage or
death may occur."

Hays calls VLF weapons "superior" because their directed energy beams do
not lose their hurtful properties when traveling through air to tissue.
A French weapon radiating at 7 hertz "made the people in range sick for
hours."


GI's "DRIVEN NUTS" BY ELECTROMAGENTICS IN IRAQ

Like so many other American blunders among the ruins of Babylon, the
intended microwave "pacification" of rebellious neighborhoods is having
unintended effects. In actual "field-testing" in the Sunni Triangle,
Hank has learned that the hidden, dome-shaped devices "are removing
inhibitions". Armed individuals, already highly motivated to kill
American forces are reportedly "losing all restraint" when exposed to
the electromagnetic beams.

According to Hank's buddies in Baghdad, the frequency-shifting "poppers"
"are having some remarkable effects on the locals as well as our own
people." But these effects differ. Possibly, Hank surmises, because
Americans come from daily domestic and military environments saturated
with electromagnetic frequencies, while many Iraqis still live without
reliable electricity in places largely free from electromagnetics before
the American invasion.

According to members of Hank's former unit, constant exposure to
invisible emissions from radar and radio rigs microwave weapons says. "It
makes them stupid for two or three days."

The Desert Storm veteran compared the emotional effects of constant
exposure to military microwaves to a lingering low-pressure weather
system that never goes away. "You feel way down for days at a time," he
emphasizes

As a consequence, AWOL rates among "spaced out" US troops are as high as
15%, Hank reports. For many deserters, it is not cowardice or conscience
that is causing them to absent themselves from duty. "They are feeling
so depressed," Hank explains. "They don't feel good. So they leave."

According to Hank's front-line buddies, Iraqis exposed to secret beam
weapons "get laid back, confused and mellow, and then blast out in a
rage, as opposed to our folks going on what could only be called a
'bender', and turning into a mean drunk for a while."

Once they wander away from direct electromagnetic-fire, startled GIs
come to their senses. They return to their units, Hank explains, saying,
"What was I thinking?"

The recovery rate among US troops "seems to be about a day or so, where
the locals are not getting over it in less than a week or more on
average," Hank has learned.

It is Hank's hope that his revelations will prompt public debate over
the secret use of electromagnetic weapons in Iraq. But lost in the
arguments over these supposedly "non-lethal" weapons is a much bigger
question: What are Americans doing there?

Whether soldier or civilian at home, it is our imperative duty to stop
supporting those responsible for ongoing "weapons tests" in Iraq. As
electrochemical "beings of light," the strongest electromagnetic force
on Earth is human conscience, acted upon.

Author's Bio: William Thomas

After resigning his US Navy Reserve commission, William Thomas subsequently
served
five months with a three-man environmental emergency response team in
the Gulf during and immediately after Desert Storm. He has written about
military electromagnetics in Scorched Earth and Bringing The War Home,
and has documented other microwave hazards in his new book "Dialing Our
Cells."

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