A Science of Morality - That's Different

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WBraun

climber
Nov 21, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
Everything is already in place.

The wheel has been spinning eternally.

This man above HFCS wants to invent a square wheel that works. LOL

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 21, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
Bottom line: (1) The engineering disciplines (which hardly existed even 300 years ago) are friggin awesome. Awesome! (2) We will soon have a belief system that (a) like engineering draws its strength from a science FOUNDATION; (b) like engineering takes into its thinking "what matters" (e.g., interests, goals, values); (c) like engineering seeks strategies, solutions, policies concerning "what works" along with ethics to guide right conduct.
-----


The misconception here - and it's a big one IMO - is that behavior/morality are driven by mental constructs, ergo the "truer" the mental constructs, the better we'll all behave and the greater meaning our lives will have.

If we can just get our minds straight everything will follow form there, correct? Isn't that what you're saying, that what we need is a new, enlightened kind of cognitive science, and then, viola, we're half way to the Promise Land.

Maybe I have this all wrong, but last time I looked we had a triune brain - meaning reptilian (instinct and sensation), mammalian (emotional) and neo-cortex. FYI, the cortex is the least effective in driving human behavior, and since the mammalian and brain stem must be met on their own terms, with their own language and symbolism (music, mythology, et al), you best get busy and address these aspects of existence because while we might have evolved quite a ways, mind is still a supporting actor in this theater of the heart.

JL

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
Werner, the wheel was a couple of years ago:

Now it's the catenaries.

(It's all gotta work together or it's no good.)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
the "truer" the mental constructs, the better we'll all behave and the greater meaning our lives will have.

No, that's not REALLY what I'm saying.

"If we can just get our minds straight everything will follow form there"

Neither this. These are really caricatures, aren't they?

I'm suggesting you extrapolate from climbing to living. There IS an art and science to them both. I believe that. Do YOU believe that. If you do to any degree, then that is a fine starting point.

I'm sayin many of the same things (e.g., ideas, attitudes, strategies, experiences, prescriptive codes of conduct involving dos and don'ts, standards and styles, education, practice and training, etc.) we climbers bring to the art of climbing we "evivants" (just a symbol) might be able to bring to the art of living at large. For starters, that is IT in a nutshell.

(And if you believe there's just no "carry over" between the two, why not? I'd be interested in hearing why not.)

In different terms, I am saying the modern age, first, could use a system of standards (or two) in the practice of living that's based on fully modern sensibilities in "what is" and "what matters" and "what works;" second, that the world could benefit from new narratives and institutions built on this system. -Esp for those millions in the world for whom the "traditional forms" no longer work. So that they have something to identify with, consolidate around, etc., instead of what they have now, an amorphous nothing in effect.

What's also clear is some don't see this possibility. So be it. But then again, does not this very thing, social response, accompany most new thinkings and most new developments down through history? -Which I think most of us already know the answer to.

I think time to give it a rest for while...

EDIT

"half way to the Promise Land."

How about instead of "half way to the Promised Land" for starters a state of affairs in the world's cultures a wee bit better than we have now? - like for instance regarding our own fossil fueled consumerist culture and concerning the miserable conditions in Afghan-like areas.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Nov 21, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
HFCS, dunno if you've read much Nietzsche, but his Genealogy of Morals might be worth reviewing. For all his faults and the heinous posthumous misinterpretations of his message, he was certainly pursuing similar lines.
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Nov 21, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
What about the promise and threat of nano technology. Molecular factories
small enough to carry around in a backpack? Making power-bars or nerve
toxins at the press of a button.

The challenge of creating and releasing a self-replicating entity apparently is irresistible to a certain personality type, as shown by the large number of computer viruses and worms in existence. We probably cannot tolerate a community of "script kiddies" releasing many modified versions of grey goo.


As a good rainy Sunday afternoon horror read this fills the bill.

http://www.crnano.org/dangers.htm#goo
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 21, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
the cortex is the least effective in driving human behavior, and since the mammalian and brain stem must be met on their own terms, with their own language and symbolism (music, mythology, et al), you best get busy and address these aspects of existence because while we might have evolved quite a ways, mind is still a supporting actor in this theater of the heart.

This is exactly why I keep advocating that what we need at this stage of development is to first understand the physical mechanisms of behavior modification that have already been developed by the world's meditation systems. Each one works differently but the tantric yoga system does work first with the reptilian brain and neurotransmitters in the spinal cord (chakras), and later with the electrical activity in the brain. As far as I know only insight meditation works with the cortex.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 21, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
Fructose-

Downloading my Physical Anthropology syllabus from our website is a complicated multi step process. I tried to paste the URL here but you have to go through the multi stage process for it to work.

I'm sending you an email and if you reply I can just attach the syllabus to that. Much simpler.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
re: deleting painful memories

Wouldn't the ability to delete your painful memories have an effect on your moral decision-making?

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2010/11/22/spotless-mind-erasing-painful-memories-soon-happen/

Don't we all learn from our experiences - good or bad - and don't these shape our moral behavior and who we are?

"there are pros and cons to erasing memories."

Yeah, who decides these? Wow. Things might be getting complicated. Maybe science goes to far, maybe science already is too much of a good thing? Hmmm...

.....

Clearly the entire development is based on the fact that memories derive from the physical brain and its microstructures and circuitry. -The marvel of which is much easier to contemplate and grasp nowadays with 1Tbyte hard drives on the market for $80.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
Sam Harris is the author of The Moral Landscape, the book which inspired this thread. Some of you may know the book was controversial, etc.

Anyways, he answers critics at huffingtonpost.com. I think it's an excellent response letter shedding even more light on the subject. -Vintage Sam Harris writing if you like it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/a-response-to-critics_b_815742.html


"What should I say, for instance, when the inimitable Deepak Chopra produces a long, poisonous, and blundering review of The Moral Landscape in The San Francisco Chronicle while demonstrating in every line that he has not read it?

Admittedly, there is something arresting about being called a scientific fraud and "egotistical" by Chopra. This is rather like being branded an exhibitionist by Lady Gaga."


Keep up the good work, Sam.
go-B

climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 29, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
Philippians 2:3 doing nothing through rivalry or through conceit, but in humility, each counting others better than himself;
2:4 each of you not just looking to his own things,
but each of you also to the things of others.
jstan

climber
Jan 29, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
The relatively new field of Evolutionary Psychology is worth watching. The piece excerpted below makes the point that the brain, like all the other organs, evolved so as to support survival and reproduction – in the environment that existed in the past.

Since about 1600 we have been in a period of rapid change so the question becomes, can an evolutionary process that takes at least 20,000 years keep up with the changes needed to facilitate survival today? “Morality” as it affects social function and social psychology is one part of the behavioral changes we face.

Since population density and depleted resources are principals in the new environment, it seems to this observer we must in the next 200 to 400 years, gain mastery over the trait we call “greed.”

Presumably that trait developed to support survival in early environments wherein food supplies were highly uncertain. Probably dating from the era in which we were scavengers. Sustaining ourselves at the carcasses left behind by more powerful predators. The domesticated dog, for example, seems to eat any given amount. Humans are not significantly different.

Excerpt below:

….We now have the answer to the question posed above: what functions is the brain likely to perform? If brain tissue is organized like all other tissue, it will perform precisely those functions that facilitate reproduction. More accurately, because evolution by natural selection is an historical process, and because the future cannot be predicted, the brain and body will perform functions that facilitated reproduction (note the past tense). Whether they currently do so will depend on how closely the present resembles the past. If we can develop an accurate picture of a species' reproductive ecology--the set of physical transformations that had to occur over evolutionary time for individuals to reproduce--we can infer those properties the organism is likely to have in order to ensure that those transformations reliably took place. Evolutionary time, the time it takes for reproductively efficacious mutations to arise and spread in the population, is often taken to be roughly 1000-10,000 generations; for humans, that equals about 20,000-200,000 years…..

http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human/epfaq/ep.html


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jan 29, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values [Hardcover]
Sam Harris (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Landscape-Science-Determine-Values/dp/1439171211/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1296347608&sr=8-1


Q: What do you think the role of religion is in determining human morality?

Harris: I think it is generally an unhelpful one. Religious ideas about good and evil tend to focus on how to achieve well-being in the next life, and this makes them terrible guides to securing it in this one. Of course, there are a few gems to be found in every religious tradition, but in so far as these precepts are wise and useful they are not, in principle, religious. You do not need to believe that the Bible was dictated by the Creator of the Universe, or that Jesus Christ was his son, to see the wisdom and utility of following the Golden Rule.

The problem with religious morality is that it often causes people to care about the wrong things, leading them to make choices that needlessly perpetuate human suffering. Consider the Catholic Church: This is an institution that excommunicates women who want to become priests, but it does not excommunicate male priests who rape children. The Church is more concerned about stopping contraception than stopping genocide. It is more worried about gay marriage than about nuclear proliferation. When we realize that morality relates to questions of human and animal well-being, we can see that the Catholic Church is as confused about morality as it is about cosmology. It is not offering an alternative moral framework; it is offering a false one.

Q: So people don’t need religion to live an ethical life?

Harris: No. And a glance at the lives of most atheists, and at the most atheistic societies on earth—Denmark, Sweden, etc.—proves that this is so. Even the faithful can’t really get their deepest moral principles from religion—because books like the Bible and the Qur’an are full of barbaric injunctions that all decent and sane people must now reinterpret or ignore. How is it that most Jews, Christians, and Muslims are opposed to slavery? You don’t get this moral insight from scripture, because the God of Abraham expects us to keep slaves. Consequently, even religious fundamentalists draw many of their moral positions from a wider conversation about human values that is not, in principle, religious. We are the guarantors of the wisdom we find in scripture, such as it is. And we are the ones who must ignore God when he tells us to kill people for working on the Sabbath.

Q: How will admitting that there are right and wrong answers to issues of human and animal flourishing transform the way we think and talk about morality?

Harris: What I’ve tried to do in my book is give a framework in which we can think about human values in universal terms. Currently, the most important questions in human life—questions about what constitutes a good life, which wars we should fight or not fight, which diseases should be cured first, etc.—are thought to lie outside the purview of science, in principle. Therefore, we have divorced the most important questions in human life from the context in which our most rigorous and intellectually honest thinking gets done.

Moral truth entirely depends on actual and potential changes in the well-being of conscious creatures. As such, there are things to be discovered about it through careful observation and honest reasoning. It seems to me that the only way we are going to build a global civilization based on shared values—allowing us to converge on the same political, economic, and environmental goals—is to admit that questions about right and wrong and good and evil have answers, in the same way the questions about human health do.





Let's be honest here. Sam Harris wants the higher moral ground without GOD in the picture. He wants the tool of science to be the religion of scientists.

He has come to realize that science can't on its own address morality. He is attempting to combine the best of science with the best morality that all people can agree upon from all faiths and religion. But he wants to kick GOD to the curb.

In this regard, Science with it's new found morality can value all life. How nice.



However, that pales in comparison to say true Christian faith that values all life, that all humans are made in the image of GOD and therefore have a soul that goes on forever and is eternal. That all mankind deserves life, liberty, and happiness, regardless of who you are or what nation you are born into. That we are commanded to be good stewards and to take of the full creation of GOD. That wealth is to be shared, and that the poor, the homeless, the sick, the widow, and the fatherless and motherless are to be cared for. That how we treat each other here and now matters in this life, and the life to come. The Golden Rule. That we will be held accountable for how we live our life.



Sam Harris's attempt at morality falls way short of the goal. Also his examples of faith often are cherry picked. He enjoys picking out the hypocrites as examples of Christian faith. Hardly. Even Jesus knew the difference.


Edit:

Also his understanding of the Word of GOD is wholly lacking. The words are spiritually decerned through the Spirit of GOD and one must "study to show thyself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth."

The Words of GOD are beyond him.
jstan

climber
Jan 29, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
“He wants the tool of science to be the religion of scientists.”



The use of emotionally loaded words gains one attention but costs us any hope of progress. “Religion” is a loaded term meaning different things to everyone.

First, the tool of science is just a “procedure” a series of actions in which one examines the data then finds the hypothesis giving the best explanation for the observations. Every hypothesis, no matter how long held to be useful (useful is not the same as “true”), is open to further test as new data is obtained.

The results of the logical progression from data to hypothesis ( or model) is never held safe from challenge. It is not held as a religion by anyone (cf. below). The process itself, is not held safe from challenge. It is and has been productively challenged all through the centuries it has taken during its evolution to the present state.

The “religion” I used above I define as a structure or system of beliefs held to be immutably true and that are protected against all challenge. There are surely other definitions but my use of the word should be taken in the sense of the definition I provided.

By their nature those using the scientific process or method are predisposed never to accept anything as immutably safe from challenge.

I take the trouble to write this because poor use of language and loaded words get us into wars and other irrational predicaments. It is one step from Mr. Klimmer’s ascertion to the claim scientists want merely to impose a “new religion” on us – and even the religious among us know how bad religions can be.

An inspired attack. In one breath claim religion, whatever that may be, is perfect.

But since we all know they are not, we have successfully tarred our adversary.

A word eating its own tail is able to serve any purpose you wish.


Now as to god.

What does the existence of a god do for us? In my opinion, and that is only an opinion, god is first and foremost presumed to be an entity outside of our control. Therefore whatever I claim comes from god - cannot be challenged. This is the function we give god.

God makes it possible for ----me -----to say something that cannot be challenged.

Mention god and I can't be challenged.

Who among us does not desire the chance never to be challenged?

I mean really?

Go-B gave me the chance to challenge him.

I knew how it would end, but........

He did put himself out there.

Radical.......
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Jan 29, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
I really like how Science fiction has moved mainstream. It was ALL possible all along, huh, folks?
New paradigm? I dunno....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2011 - 11:58am PT
jstan-
The relatively new field of Evolutionary Psychology is worth watching.

Agree.

the brain...like all the other organs, evolved so as to support survival and reproduction – in the environment that existed in the past.

So in a sense what we all have today is an "early model" brain (if not to some extent a mesozoic brain) trying to cope in an environment that's undergoing change at a frenzied pace. Makes one wonder a couple of things: (1) Is this evolutionary mismatch one reason we have such high levels of depression in this internet-driven information age? (2) Are we under evolutionary selection pressure that down the line will produce or yield brains (and people, super intelligent hominids) more adaptable to an environment that's information-intensive and fast paced?

EDIT


jstan-
Since about 1600 we have been in a period of rapid change so the question becomes, can an evolutionary process that takes at least 20,000 years keep up with the changes needed to facilitate survival today? “Morality” as it affects social function and social psychology is one part of the behavioral changes we face.

So if it cannot keep up, is one of the effects of this... depression? Perhaps boiled up from our inner reptile circuits?

Since population density and depleted resources are principals in the new environment, it seems to this observer we must in the next 200 to 400 years, gain mastery over the trait we call “greed.”

Our options, ecologically, might boil down to either (a) Love and War or (b) Love and Lottery - as means to dealing with the ever increasing over-population problem - effects of course I think we are already experiencing (but alas ascribing to other causes).

I alluded to these (a) Love and War and (b) Love and Lottery possibilities on another thread: Your Pick for the #1 Crux (of the 21st Century):

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1340564&msg=1341134#msg1341134

The thread didn't get much response. But the smart money is that the crux of the future nature's going to force us to deal with is going to be the population and resource depletion pressure.

EDIT

jstan,

your concluding quote in your first post hits the nail on the head. Powerful new understandings, to say the least. I get a great deal out of Steven Pinker, esp his lecture videos. His thinking is always out of an "evolutionary psychology" framework. I get so much insight from him and EP my brain hurts. -It's just struggling to keep up (to adapt) I suppose. ;)

"we can infer those properties the organism is likely to have in order to ensure that those transformations reliably took place"



re: "properties the organism is likely to have"

-Including but not limited to... lying, deceit, greed... for example.
WBraun

climber
Jan 30, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
You have it backwards.

People are less intelligent than in the past.

Man was far more advanced in the past ages and lived hundreds of years longer.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2011 - 12:26pm PT
Let's split the difference: Arguably man was more adapted to his environment 50,000 years ago than he is today. Werner, you and I would've kicked ass in the Pleistocene!! ;)

P.S. And our women... would've been the pudding to prove it.


.....

EDIT

re: The Moral Landscape, by Sam Harris

http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Landscape-Science-Determine-Values/dp/1439171211/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1296347608&sr=8-1

Wow, can't believe the reviews at amazon are up to 276 now, Sam's picked up quite a following. Still, I think the book's only mediocre. Then again, it's historical role I think will be that it cracked the ceiling on this vitally important subject, wresting it from the supernaturalist faiths.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 30, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
From a New York Times Article today:

How meditation may change the brain.

M.R.I. brain scans taken before and after the participants’ meditation regimen found increased gray matter in the hippocampus, an area important for learning and memory. The images also showed a reduction of gray matter in the amygdala, a region connected to anxiety and stress. A control group that did not practice meditation showed no such changes.

Previous studies have also shown that there are structural differences between the brains of meditators and those who don’t meditate, although this new study is the first to document changes in gray matter over time.

In a 2008 study published in the journal PloS One, researchers found that when meditators heard the sounds of people suffering, they had stronger activation levels in their temporal parietal junctures, a part of the brain tied to empathy, than people who did not meditate.


http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/28/how-meditation-may-change-the-brain/?src=me&ref=general
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
Observation: Spock meditated. He was quite the moral man, too. Unlike Commodus.

.....

Food for thought: When someone (e.g., Marcus Aurelius) calls another immoral (e.g., Commodus), note that it is always in reference to either (a) his own moral template or (b) a society's moral template.

Above is an example of something that Sam Harris COULD HAVE talked about but didn't in his book along with a dozen or more other interesting morality-related subjects. This is why I graded The Moral Landscape "incomplete" or "lacking" more than anything.

.....

EDIT

What's super revealing is to read the "one-star" reviews at amazon for Sam Harris' book - you can tell that (a) they're religious conservatives by and large and (b) they so badly - so desperately - want there to be an absolute morality to the world defined by a God Jehovah as told through the Abrahamic bible stories.

Like President Obama said in his SOTU 2011 speech: "That world has changed."
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