Bolts chopped on Cerro Torre

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rolo

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 16, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
Bolts chopped on Cerro Torre

Under the auspices such a topic title I wish I could report that I have chopped some of Maestri's bolts, but I have not. The bolts I chopped two days ago are some of the many that David Lama's film crew placed last summer.

Above the col of Patience (the shoulder) I came across 20 “David Lama-Red Bull bolts”, as opposed to the 12 reported by Lama himself and the person responsible for placing them, the Austrian mountain guide Heli Putz. Because of time constraints I could not make an in-detail inspection of that section of the route, so I am guessing there were a few more. Of those 20 bolts, I managed to chop 17. In contrast to what Lama and Putz reported, all bolts were very much on the route, drilled in existing belays or in the middle of pitches, all in places where natural protection is readily available and where for more than 30 years climbers have climbed by.

Heli Putz had also reported to Will Gadd that the rappel line he bolted below the col of Patience (the shoulder) followed an independent line. This also proved to be incorrect. More kool-aid or whatever fizzy drink his employer manufactures to cover up for his own idiocy. The rappel line Putz bolted follows the same buttress that the normal rappel line follows, sharing the first two anchors, which he retro-bolted and later takes a more direct line to the ground, following a line that is often used by climbers to rappel when conditions are very dry. Next to each of his bolted anchors there are old rap stations on natural gear. Because of bad weather I was unable to chop those anchors. In that section I saw 20 bolts, but likely there are more, in contrast to the 14 reported by Lama and Putz.

Also worth noting Lama and the Red Bull film crew left 5 haul-bags of stuff on the mountain last season when they bailed out of town, including the 700 meters of fix line on the route. About a month later they hired three Argentine guides to clean up their mess. They did a great job and managed to pull most everything off the route, with the exception of two haulbags (not one as reported by Lama and Putz). Just four days ago two Argentine climbers brought down in disgust those two remaining haul-bags and hopefully will hold their contents up for ransom.

In his response to the debacle Lama wrote saying that for his second attempt to free the Compressor route during the 2010-2011 season they would take a different, lighter approach. However reports suggest that the team size has been increased rather than reduced, so again in this case Lama’s statement might be but a diversion.

With the level of misinformation that the Red Bull crew is dishing out their fancy fizzy drink is fast becoming the modern Kool-aid. Dont drink it!



Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 16, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
Thank you, Rolo.

Some of the backstory: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1181099/60-Bolts-drilled-on-Compressor-Route-in-Patagonia
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 16, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
Good job Rolo! That Herr Putz is aptly named methinks.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Nov 16, 2010 - 12:31pm PT
Truly lame.Those guys should not be allowed back. Thanks for helping clean that sh#t up Rolo.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 16, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
Hi Rolo,
(long time) Thanks for the update and thorough detail.
"Putz" is right.

Well, I don't drink that stuff anyway, but I hope a bunch of people that did will stop.
Red Bull should be pilloried for promoting this, however the fact that others were hired to recover gear mitigates the refuse aspect, but adding yet more bolts? WTF?
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Nov 16, 2010 - 12:54pm PT
That pisses me off. Even though I will probably never go there. The least they could do is be honest. Anyone ever look into any other alpine project these people have done? I just spent two days in the cold doing needles style rappels off scetchy spires scaring the sh*t out of myself on routes that may not of been climbed since the 70's. I guess we should of brought a bosch and some bolts and lied about their existence then we could have made a film that would be a "service" to a lot of people so we could sell $3.00 fizzy sodas.
onarunning

Trad climber
Duluth, MN
Nov 16, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
Thank you.
Johnny K.

Mountain climber
Southern,California
Nov 16, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
Rolo you are the man.Much respect to you sir!


More often than not,mainstream (redbull,lama,putz etc) people look at money/fame and are blind in their actions to "progress" their money/fame.They totally forget that the utmost simple respect is due to the mountains/nature first and foremost.People who lie like that usually dig their own graves.I do not want to put anyone down,but its like the old saying "what goes around,comes around".

On top of the bolting,leaving the haul bags,trash,extra gear is just beyond unacceptable for someone who is supposed to have dignity and respect.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 16, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
Pisses me off too! Thanks for letting everyone know the situation, Rolo!

In his response to the debacle Lama wrote saying that for his second attempt to free the Compressor route during the 2010-2011 season they would take a different, lighter approach.

Anyone want to start collecting donations for a special sniper team to protect the route from Lama for the upcoming season? I'll donate $50. I'm sure there are lots of people at ST who can advise on the best weapons for the job. (am joking of course, but I wish there was some way to stop this indiscriminate bolting...)
Lithuanian

Trad climber
Reno
Nov 16, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
Anyone want to start collecting donations for a special sniper team to protect the route from Lama for the upcoming season?

I know some Russians ;-)
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 16, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
Thanks for making a statement that bolts should not be added to existing routes.

I hope "chopped" really means pulled and you didn't leave broken studs and left it as clean as reasonably possible.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 16, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
Thanks tons Rolo! And the Argentinian crew too! This is the kind of response it takes to keep alpinism from becoming an effing joke. We all know that some of us have to make a living at it---have to eat and have a future---but it does not have to be that alpinism and the Wild both have to go into slavery for them.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Nov 16, 2010 - 01:53pm PT

Thanks for your report, Rolo!
Those of us that aspire (but probably won't ever do),
are inspired by not only your climbing brilliance, but
your ethics and committment to do the right thing.

Thanks!!!!!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 16, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
Peter, am I the only one that catches a whiff of hypocrisy among those that direct more animosity towards Red Bull than BP?

(Specially when they fly hundreds of thousands of miles to climb leaving behind a carbon footprint that dwarfs Everest)

Lets keep this in perspective.
Write a few letters, but look to your own house.
Cpt0bvi0u5

Trad climber
Merced CA
Nov 16, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
Major props! You did a great service to the climbing community. Hopefully this will teach Lama and his team a lesson.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Nov 16, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
good job ROLO!!!
Maybe they should hire you to be their guide and ethics leader, or just free the line before him and show him how its done..
kurt smith
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 16, 2010 - 03:12pm PT
Rolo, you are the man! Thank you ever so for your efforts on all our behalf's.

or just free the line before him and show him how its done..
Amen brother, amen.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
Nov 16, 2010 - 03:12pm PT
who is Lame-a?
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Nov 16, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
Rolo

Good job and the Booty for ransom is BS they brought it down its their gear now.

Good news is that I know some people at Red Bull who may have the ability to make some calls and put an end to this crap. I suspect that if the right people at RB knew the destruction that was taking place there at the hands of people they are giving money to they may not give them money anymore. No funding no trip.

I'm on this right now.
Levy

Big Wall climber
So Cal
Nov 16, 2010 - 03:14pm PT
RedBull should dump that chump!

David Lama's team's actions are not a benefit to the climbing community and they should re-think their methods. Good thing the locals cleaned up the mess. On behalf of the climbing community in general, thanks!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 16, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
Gregory Crouch

Social climber
Goleta, California
Nov 16, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
Good effort, Rolo. I still can't quite get my head wrapped around all the reported additions. I can't think of any "why" that makes sense, as in the places you describe it seems to me far less effort just to do the climbing without whacking in some 30-40 bolts, even if one were burdened with camera(s). (If memory serves correctly.) All that stuff was free, or free-ish, climbing anyway, right?

I'm sure you did the best possible job getting rid of all that Red Bull garbage.

It's all so bizarre. There must be some hidden magnetic core to that peak that makes us all go bat-shit crazy when we're on it.
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Nov 16, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
Rolo,

Good news and that is my wife is well connected at Red Bull and having been an agent for many action sport athletes here in the US knows that Red Bull would like to hear that this type of thing is going on. Its not good PR and bad for their image. I suspect things can happen to make this right. Please Please get all your information together and straight I suspect you will be getting a call or an email from Red Bull.

Stick a foot in this guys ass and put an end to this destruction.
Acer

Big Wall climber
AZ
Nov 16, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
Thanks Rolo Garibotti.

This has made the Alpinist page.

I am on the Boycott of Red Bull and Lama.

Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Nov 16, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
Now wait here why would you boycott them until they know whats going on. I would say that you boycott them if they choose to do nothing but I suspect you will see them put an end to this. If not the boycott is on and I will be the first to pour the many cases in my garage out and into the gutter. Or I will take them to the park and give to the homeless.
Ain't no flatlander

climber
Nov 16, 2010 - 03:45pm PT
Great job Rolo! I'll by you a cold fizzy drink when you get back to Boulder...and it sure as hell won't be Red Bull.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Nov 16, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
Let's hope Lama is denied a Canadian visa should he ever apply for one.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Nov 16, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
Ghastly business when climbers call themselves that and then cheat or lie to make their commitments.

I've always wondered the selection process whereby climbers receive sponsorship in the first place. Is it the squeaky wheel gets the grease? Spray long and hard enough and your bullshit gets believed?

Or is there some kind of peer review providing opportunity for nepotism, yeah, but also a way that cheaters are not quite able to stand up to the flashlight shining on their little roach selves.

OR did Lama & Putz bite off more then they could chew, freak out and make a mess and tried to cover their tracks? It would be interesting to see Lama post to this thread. I imagine great umbrage & outrage at us commenting on these actions based upon Rolo's observations alone.

And it's interesting what Silver has done; contacted the RB folks himself. Do they not keep tabs on their athletes through independant sources?

If not, oooooh, big mistake.

Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
Nov 16, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
send the hate trane down the tracks bras:

Red Bull Feedback Page
Gene

Social climber
Nov 16, 2010 - 05:43pm PT
With a team named Lama & Putz, we MUST HAVE a Tami cartoon ASAP.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Nov 16, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
.....only if sponsored by RED BULL!!!!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Nov 16, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
Tami,

They do keep track to a degree but I will tell you this that they are HUGE and the money is HUGE and the sponsorships are HUGE.

Imagine one man owns this company and one man only. I am suprised he is not listed as one of the worlds richest men. He may be for all I know but having attened many a Red Bull event and party the amounts spent are HUGE and that can be somewhat hard to track.

I do know that if you run one of their events and things go wrong heads roll. As per the incident in Boston where the underage drinker killed a motorcycle cop after he had been served at an RB event. Heads Rolled there and they can roll here if we just get this info to the right person. The one thing that may keep this from happening is that we are talking Austrian climber and Austrian owned company.

I really do see this as having serious momentum when an entire climbing community puts the foot down and says enough is enough. Give me some time the wife is working on it and we will get this info to the right people. From there it is up to RB to do the right thing.

If not looks like I'm giving the homeless a lot of RB
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 16, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
No worries about drinking Red Bull- the stuff sucks. Can the Park Superintendent intervene with the next attempt? After all, they left tons of gear behind the first time contrary to their agreement.

I have opened a number of routes in the area and have placed a TOTAL of 4 or 5 hand drilled bolts- all on Torre Egger in 1976. I have not even taken bolts with me since Torre Egger, the rock in the area lends itself to non invasive protection.

Thanks Rolo for your report and your efforts in cleaning up the debacle!!!
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Nov 16, 2010 - 06:26pm PT
From david-lama.com and David's blog about the trip :

It’s true that there are cracks and rock structures in which natural gear could have been placed for fixing the ropes. It’s also a fact that the camera guys could have jumared up on these natural placements. But all of this is fairly easy to say if you are not the person in charge of the lives of the people hauling themselves up on these placements after a huge storm… I certainly don’t want to carry this responsibility, and in that respect I understand our lead guides decision in placing a limited number of bolts.


.....which begs the question if you can't stand the heat don't get into the fire.

Bad decision to even go there in the first place.

Bad Lama.

Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Nov 16, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
donini-
have not even taken bolts with me since Torre Egger, the rock in the area lends itself to non evasive protection.

I can't help myself, sorry. I'm guessing routes with evasive protection are pretty challenging. I hate it when I size 'er up and reach for the #3, only to find that the crack has foreseen my move and quickly grown to #4.

Dickhead poking at donini for grammar aside, hats off to rolo and let's hope the powers that be at Redbull take note of the response on this page and do the right thing. No new trip for retrobolting route trashers.

-Bob
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 16, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
Lama's Red Bull blog page:

http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Profile/David-Lama-021242754976758

There is plenty of negative commenting going on there by the way. Thanks Weld_it for the link for their feedback/contact!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 16, 2010 - 06:43pm PT
Ooops....wanted to say invasive, going back to edit the sentence. Editing ST posts could prove to be a tough job.
Porkchop_express

Trad climber
Springdale UT
Nov 16, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
This may be a dumb question but why did he bring guides with him? If he is a professional, shouldnt he just have a partner or something and learn his own way around the park--or do most sponsored climbers take guides with them?
Cor

climber
Nov 16, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
of course a sport climber needs a guide in a trad area...
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Nov 16, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
where can i find fresh chopage?

no recycle, just for kicks,

i think ted and hanoi jane are the choppers,



RobA

Trad climber
NJ-Summer LCC Winter
Nov 16, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
left an entire highway of bolts and pitons in the mountain’s south-east face, which has nothing to do with today’s climbing ethics


from his red bull blog...

i hope they dump his ass
maxdacat

Trad climber
Sydney, Australia
Nov 16, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
Good effort to do this but why no photos? Esp. in this age of cheap digital cameras.
MisterE

Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
Nov 16, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
Just another "Thank You" to Rolo - way to get after the Red Bullsh1t.
The user formerly known as stzzo

Social climber
Nov 16, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
Given their marketing style, the hype, and the average attitude of people I see drinking Red Bull, I'm not surprised at the team's behavior.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 17, 2010 - 12:05am PT
Rolo,

Good work on the cleanup and expose'.

Lama and Putz sound way too much like "Maestri II"!
 Misinformation and trigger happy with the bolt gun.

Ban power drills in the park.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Nov 17, 2010 - 12:12am PT
and the cell phones and computers, but not the digital cameras.
Cpt0bvi0u5

Trad climber
Merced CA
Nov 17, 2010 - 12:42am PT
of course a sport climber needs a guide in a trad area...
haha that legitimately made me laugh
The user formerly known as stzzo

Social climber
Nov 17, 2010 - 12:52am PT
Ghastly business when climbers call themselves that and then cheat or lie to make their commitments.

Tami, I respect where you're coming from, but I think it's unrealistic to hold climbers to any special standards in the world.

Ultimately, climbing is just an activity, and it means different things to different people. Participants from from many different backgrounds and value systems.
jonny red

Trad climber
golden b.c.
Nov 17, 2010 - 01:21am PT
Nice work Rolo. I wish I was there to help...
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Nov 17, 2010 - 01:37am PT
Ultimately, climbing is just an activity, and it means different things to different people. Participants from from many different backgrounds and value systems.




stzz - No Way when it means bolting next to cracks that people have used gear in for 30 years ( as mentioned in a previous post ) . If someone comes to The Valley and puts a bolt line up next to the Stovelegs then somebody's gonna get hurt real bad.

If it's climbed trad, leave it trad. This chap is an Austrian and should know the ethics of the area.

Indeed he says on his blog the bolts were placed to assist the camera crew.
So he "needs" his camera crew? Bullsh#t.

Sounds like buddy needed to stay home & do more alpine routes on his own hausbergs before heading into the bigger theatre.
The user formerly known as stzzo

Social climber
Nov 17, 2010 - 02:32am PT
Ultimately, climbing is just an activity, and it means different things to different people. Participants from from many different backgrounds and value systems.

stzz - No Way when it means bolting next to cracks that people have used gear in for 30 years ( as mentioned in a previous post ) . If someone comes to The Valley and puts a bolt line up next to the Stovelegs then somebody's gonna get hurt real bad.

If it's climbed trad, leave it trad. This chap is an Austrian and should know the ethics of the area.

Indeed he says on his blog the bolts were placed to assist the camera crew.
So he "needs" his camera crew? Bullsh#t.

Hey Tami, I'm not sure what you're saying "no way" to...

My point is that, regardless of what climbing means to you, the tradition of the valley, etc, it doesn't mean that to every single other person in the world who climbs.

Bottom line is that the word "climber" means "one who climbs". You (and many others) attach special meaning regarding style, ethics, etc - but that's only because they are your values.

Any "one who climbs" can technically call themselves a climber, whether they fit your definition of "climber" or not. You and the valley legacy don't define the word "climber" - the dictionary does.

So, any idiot who climbs can rightfully call themselves a climber by the technical definition of the word, no matter their level of sensitivity for local ethics, concern for the environment, etc.

That is my only point. I make no arguments about whether the Red Bull team's actions were acceptable (by my values, they certainly weren't acceptable - but that's not the point I'm addressing).

In other words: climbers are not immune to pulling dick moves. Some climbers are dicks. But they are still climbers.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 17, 2010 - 02:39am PT
Why is Cerro Torre so special? Commercial pressures and climbing have caused similar environmental impacts, both real and symbolic, to many other mountains and cliffs. Many, around the world. Less commonly in remote areas, but it happens in wildernesses too. And getting to and from wilderness peaks often has higher impacts, however well-behaved one is on the spot.

Certainly Cerro Torre has great symbolic value. But what about our cumulative impacts everywhere else? Is any of us innocent?

It's great fun to mock Lama, Doofus, Rad Bull et al for what they did. IMHO it was boneheaded, although economics always tend to be paramount for commercial climbers. But does this really help advance the purpose of having all climbers reduce or eliminate their impacts on the environment, both at home and in the mountains?
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 17, 2010 - 06:16am PT
Cerro Torre is a "sore spot" because of Maestri's bolt ladder, the abandoned compressor, and his prior/continuing lies about having completed the FA with Toni Egger (debunked by Rolo in the AAJ).

The bolt ladder does provide a way to descend from the top, but the concept of motorized bolting up a blank wall on a big alpine peak is disturbing to many. It is one of those "fence" issues like the rap bolting of Growing Up, which can be justified, but many are uncomfortable with it.
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Nov 17, 2010 - 09:24am PT
Ya really want to get on the sticky "edge of the fence"

show of hands, how many of the people voicing righteous indignation here flipped out the other way when Wharton and Smith discussed chopping the original superfluous bolts?

oh, but those were justified bolts b/c they've been there a while, right?
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Nov 17, 2010 - 09:41am PT
Nobody here really gives a rats arse what I think...

butt for the record, thank you Rolo for the effort of going up there, removing the bolts, and letting us know what is happening.
A big appreciation to to the folks that hauled all that sh*te out of there.

I believe Red Bull ought to take a pretty close look at the situation and realize some things just go beyond the $$.
This is part of their public identity.

Cheers,
DD
Roxy

Trad climber
CA Central Coast
Nov 17, 2010 - 10:24am PT
bump for bolt removal, good work Rolo
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Nov 17, 2010 - 10:26am PT
oh, but those were justified bolts b/c they've been there a while, right?

Respect the first ascensionist?

Its all a slippery slope...
MisterE

Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
Nov 17, 2010 - 11:30am PT


Here's a Red Bull link to Lama:

http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/Lama-carves-his-name-in-history-021242855836603

And here's his take on the controversy:

http://www.david-lama.com/en/news.html?no_cache=1&tx_lamanews_pi2[newsuid]=195&tx_lamanews_pi1[newsuid]=195
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Nov 17, 2010 - 11:35am PT
So many Haters from people that have never been to Patagonia or met David Lama, wow. . .
Prezwoodz

climber
Anchorage
Nov 17, 2010 - 11:49am PT
Good job rolo! Sounds like really tuff work!

I am not trying to say anything against it, this is an honest question...but would it not be better to have two rap bolts vs a bunch of slings or gear left in the rock? I am speaking in reference to the anchor you talked about where natural anchor protection is available. I can see the argument for both such as the slings can always come down as could the gear and the damage would be null or non existent vs the bolts which will probably always have a piece of them there. Although the bolts could probably be patched and in a few years gone to the eyes. It just seems like there ends up being a lot of tat out there as I have run across plenty here in Alaska myself.

Once again this is a question and I would love to hear your point of view I am not speaking against you at all and I really appreciate everything you do. I learn by asking questions and listing to the answers of those I respect.

Kelsey
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 17, 2010 - 11:50am PT
Nice how the first big link on his blog is Lama "Carves" His Name In History.


BWA HA HA Hahhahaaa!!!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 17, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
Prezwood, in recent years climbers, mostly europeans, have been using power drills to place bolts at belays in Patagonia. It has been my experience, having climbed 150 plus pitches of new terrain there, that bolts for belays are never needed.
Power drill climbing pretty much precludes alpine ascents. A natural extension would be for the "Army Corps of Engineers" to start constructing escalators.

Style does matter especially given the fact that climbing has no intrinsic value to anyone but the climber.
curt wohlgemuth

Social climber
Bay Area, California
Nov 17, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
Peter Haan wrote:

We all know that some of us have to make a living at it---have to eat and have a future---but it does not have to be that alpinism and the Wild both have to go into slavery for them.

I for one don't know that *anyone* has to make a living via alpinism. I know a number of people do so, but that doesn't mean they *have to*.

I still think the notion of "professional climbers" is ridiculous...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 17, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
No profession is any more ridiculous than another. Making a real living from climbing is another matter.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Nov 17, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
stzz - I think we're prolly on the same page with respect to how we feel about this news. I believe "climbers", "climbing" and what all that means to the non-climbing world are diminished by this sort of behaviour as the intended output of the trip is presumably meant to be used for promotion & advertizing of David Lama & Red Bull.

Had Lama been some young dumb putz in Patagonia who screwed up and pounded in bolts, I doubt the hue & cry would be as intense. It would still be a total boneheaded move to do what he did but , because he's a "professional climber", a higher standard is expected. Intending to make money doing something means - IMHO - you should have some kind of excellent ethical standard. Put the bar higher...........not bring it down to a new low.

And Dean this isn't so much hate or judgement as it is opinion publicly voiced....what's yours?

I don't need to know David Lama nor have been to Patagonia to form an opinion about this. You can say opinions are like assh0les; everyone's gotone & they all stink..........yep........and David prolly is just a nice sweet kid who climbs hard. Yeah that's not the point at all . I'm not condeming the person but the behaviour. I'd bitch slap my son ( who is the same age as Lama ) if he was a climber and went to Patagonia and did that..........

Big Joe

Trad climber
Denver, CO
Nov 17, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
Rolo,

Thanks for your hard work. Sounds like a major grunt job to say the least. Sad that new bolts were placed to existing natural anchors and adjacent to natural options mid pitch.
jfailing

Trad climber
A trailer park in the Sierras
Nov 17, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
I just spent the past two hours reading up on this whole fiasco - good to see that the bolts are finally being taken care of - props, Rolo!

A somewhat unrelated question: Is Maestri's compressor actually still on the route? Reading this article made it seem like it was: http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP11/climbing-note-grmovsek
Prezwoodz

climber
Anchorage
Nov 17, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
Thank you donini for the response. I feel I am still a beginner when it comes to climbing and to be honest I learned to climb in a gym before i ever went outside. When I began to climb outside it was with partners of my own level I never really got a lesson in ethics or style so I continue to learn as I go and try to make the best decisions possible. The input from others is greatly appreciated.

If the folks who were drilling those bolts with a power drill doing so with a hand drill would it change the perception? When you talk about not needing bolts for belays what do you use to come back down with? Is it gear being left in the rock? Is it better? These are questions I ask myself. What are your thoughts?

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 17, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
Having someone with the impeccable credibility of Rolando presenting the real conditions is important for climbing community to know. Understanding their offense and the widespread disdain
of their actions by the climbing community is important for Red Blah, Lama and other climbers and sponsors to come to grips with.
ol' downbroken climber

climber
Germany
Nov 17, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
Great, I will do all my very best to post this in German Mags. Well done, Rolo, the one and only answer to this "breed"

andreas

editor of "bergsteiger"
Beagle

Trad climber
CO
Nov 17, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
Yawn. I'd be more interested in hearing this story if Patagonia was a vast wilderness– but contrary to popular belief, the climbing area described here is littered with fixed ropes, fixed anchors and gear caches. It's not called "Tat-agonia" for nothing. Most well know Patagonia climbers also have multiple gear stashes in the hills to facilitate lighter packs on the walk in. So, while I don't agree with the Lama bolting - maybe we should clean up our own trash before we start preaching!
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Nov 17, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
Prez, if they were putting them in with a hand drill they would not have put so many in, esspecially not right next to good natural protection.
The user formerly known as stzzo

Social climber
Nov 17, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
because he's a "professional climber", a higher standard is expected. Intending to make money doing something means - IMHO - you should have some kind of excellent ethical standard. Put the bar higher...........not bring it down to a new low.

Tami, I hear you... I'm just a jaded cynic, and I don't expect anyone backed by Red Bull to agree with us on the ethical issues, the standards to which they should be held, or what would constitute lowering the bar.

Largely because my opinion is that Red Bull type products in general are more about money and hype than about preservation of tradition & ethics. To me, anyone who has sold their soul to Red Bull has already demonstrated that respecting the tradition & ethics of others is a lower priority to them than is "selling more product". He may as well be climbing for McDonalds or Coca Cola...

IMHO, I think all climbers - not just professional climbers - should be held to the same high ethical standards. But it's proven difficult in our community to get consensus on what the ethics should be - even to get consensus that we should all adhere to a standard ethic of respecting local ethics.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 17, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
I think there should be cables, like half dome.
213

climber
Where the Froude number often >> 1
Nov 17, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
Thanks, Rolo!!! Keep the shining light of true style and achievement illuminating the real world and casting those who MURDER THE IMPOSSIBLE forever into the shadows of shame and silence!
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
Nov 17, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
RAD!!!!!!666
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Nov 17, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
Largely because my opinion is that Red Bull type products in general are more about money and hype than about preservation of tradition & ethics. To me, anyone who has sold their soul to Red Bull has already demonstrated that respecting the tradition & ethics of others is a lower priority to them than is "selling more product". He may as well be climbing for McDonalds or Coca Cola...


Two thumbs up.
Brian

climber
California
Nov 17, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
Largely because my opinion is that Red Bull type products in general are more about money and hype than about preservation of tradition & ethics. To me, anyone who has sold their soul to Red Bull has already demonstrated that respecting the tradition & ethics of others is a lower priority to them than is "selling more product". He may as well be climbing for McDonalds or Coca Cola...


Two thumbs up.

Make that three... er, four...?

Whatever, I second what Tami seconded about what The user formerly known as stizzo said about what Lama did to cause Rolo to do what he did!

What a fecking fiasco. Thanks to Rolo and others who are trying to keep those routes wild.

Brian
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Nov 18, 2010 - 09:17am PT
Quoth Lama:For the guides it was of course the most important thing to guarantee the safety of the crew. Beyond that it was of great importance to me that other climbers in the route would not be disturbed by the production and that the mountain would be strained as minimally as possible.

It appeared to our lead guide as the most reasonable solution to install a line of fixed ropes aside of the route from the high point down to the bottom of Col de la Patiencia. To make this possible, twelve bolts were added above, fourteen beneath the Col, many of them far away from the actual route. The existing rapelling line down from the shoulder was too dangerous due to falling ice.

The most important demand on ourselves though was to leave the mountain as we found it after finishing the production. Already during our attempts old ropes abandoned by other climbers were cleaned out of the route and carried out of the valley, just like we had planned to do with our own gear after the production. We had been expecting loads of bad weather during our stay but certainly not snowfalls that would hinder us to make it onto the Col for over a month. Therefore we carried out the gear we had left at Nipo Nino before departing earlier than we had planned. But even before we left, local guides were engaged to remove the fixed ropes and the things we had left on the Col, as soon as the weather conditions would allow it. A haulbag and the bolts had to be left, but they will for sure be removed in the next austral summer.

The critique coming from the climbing scene for sure didn’t leave us cold. Cleanly removing bolts and not placing them at all are two different things. The critique made me think a lot and I must admit that most of all the conversations with friends of mine that are alpinists sharpened my view on some things.

It’s true that there are cracks and rock structures in which natural gear could have been placed for fixing the ropes. It’s also a fact that the camera guys could have jumared up on these natural placements. But all of this is fairly easy to say if you are not the person in charge of the lives of the people hauling themselves up on these placements after a huge storm… I certainly don’t want to carry this responsibility, and in that respect I understand our lead guides decision in placing a limited number of bolts.

Aside of the bolts, for many the controversy starts already with the question, if productions should even be made on such a mountain. This is a question where opinions differ widely. Film projects and photo shoots will always be a part of professional climbing and therefore also a part of my life. For my project on Cerro Torre I drew my consequences from the critique and decided together with Red Bull to change the production strategy, so no more bolts would need to be added. This decision will have an effect on the production quality, but I’m glad that Red Bull stands by me for that. Should it turn out though that under these new circumstances the film project would be abandoned, my plans on returning to Cerro Torre and trying to free the compressor route would remain the same…




Good job on the cleanup.


Plenty of awesome, beautiful climbing films have been made without creating bolted safety zones. It just shows a monumental lack of creativity on behalf of the guides and the camera crew. What a bunch of pussies. I'm sure there are qualified film crews experienced in this sort of filming that could create a nice film, without leaving such a messy footprint.

Safety? More like convenience. It really seems like the decision to start bolting came from the lead guide?... and Lama said "OK...whatever". Perhaps more of the anger should be directed where it is actually due. I feel a little for Lama. He allowed the corporate monster and it's minions to run the show and obviously failed to divine the larger ramifications. Hopefully in the future he'll have the guts to put his foot down now that he's had a bit of a wake up call.



Red Bull.. I hate the stuff anyhow. Never buy it.



PS: Lama actually reports adding 26 bolts ("twelve bolts were added above, fourteen beneath the Col,)"... not 14. Still possibly incorrect (?) according to witness account.

survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 18, 2010 - 09:25am PT
"I'm gonna free climb Cerro Torre!....with a big ass line of bolts for my film crew..." Really pushing the envelope there.

Pretty impressive to get a German mag editor on this thread.
e9climbing.blogspot.com

Mountain climber
Alps
Nov 18, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
One thing. I'm not so sure the witch hunt on the Guide from Austria is right. He did what he was told to do in order to ensure safety for the film crew.

I guess Lama should step up and say "I was team leader and I'm responsible, it was my project and the Guide just did what he was told in order to document my assent".

I wrote down some comments on my blog if any one is interested.

http://e9climbing.blogspot.com/2010/11/in-sharp-contrast-el-cap-and-cerro.html
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Nov 18, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
Interesting about this thread are the lurkers; I've received notes into my inbox from 2 old climbing friends who have commented on what I've posted.

Be assured this ( & PtPP's other ) thread could be a mouse that roared; I'd suggest strongly refraining from personal attacks but commenting on Lama's own words ( posted by the maid above )

For my part I still believe extenuating reasons could be found for adding bolts next to a route , for example, if the climbers in distress, horrendous weather....but to assist in what largely appears to be a publicity stunt for a sponsor is execreble.

To condemn those of us commenting on this who don't know David Lama or who have never been to Patagonia is not the point . I am both those things. But it doesn't matter.

I strongly believe climbers must uphold a very high standard of behaviour for their actions. Climbing is not about survival of life; it's a recreational activity pursued for pleasure. That some can make a life at it is their choice. That choice should always include exceedingly high ethical standards relative to the climb.

Leave NO trace. Full stop.
heinz

Sport climber
italy
Nov 18, 2010 - 03:36pm PT
bravo Rolo!!!
Luca Signorelli

Mountain climber
Courmayeur (Vda) Italy
Nov 18, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
Well done Rolo, both for setting the record straight on the bolts and for the actual chipping. You're da man! Cheers from Italy.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 18, 2010 - 04:03pm PT
Below is a response from RedBull to an email I sent them a few days ago when this thread started.

Hi Terry,

Thanks for sending us your concern.

Due to bad weather, the production had to be stopped and is currently on hold whilst waiting for the next Patagonian summer.
Red Bull takes the protection of nature and security of human lives very seriously, and has a long history in producing high quality productions in extreme circumstances and exposed areas. The entire shoulder and wall has been cleaned of not only our, but also older material which was found. Only one haul bag and 30 bolts remain, set only aside the main climbing route necessary for the production crew due to falling ice on the original track. The whole endeavor and every step was planned and executed in close accordance with the local administration of Parque Nacional Los Glaciares. After completion of the project these parts will also be entirely removed.

If you have any further questions or concerns, feel free to give us a call at 1(877)673-9444.

Thanks and regards,

Emily
Red Bull
http://www.redbullusa.com


Your comment:

Hi Redbull,

I'm a rock climber/mountaineer and I've been reading about Austrian climber David Lama, who Redbull sponsored on a climb of Cerro Torre in Patagonia. Lama's team drilled a LOT of holes in the rock to make the film, which destroys the rock and is not necessary. Recently a well known Patagonia climber, Rolando Garibotti went up on the climb that Lama attempted and cleaned up a lot of the mess that Lama left behind. Garibotti also reports that there were a LOT more bolts placed than Lama claimed. Lama's statement is the bolts were needed for safety for the film crew but most climbers feel that destroying a famous climb like this is NOT worth it, and that it was not even necessary. Its a total travesty that Redbull supports this kind of bad ethics. Lama is like a spoiled punk kid who does what he wants, without consequence. He should be banned from Patagonia completely. If Redbull continues to sponsor Lama and his climbs, I plan to boycott Redbull's products for as long as I live. Lama is planning on returning to Patagonia. Redbull - please don't have any part of this. For more info on what Rolando Garibotti discovered and states, please see his online post (the 1st one) at http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1319502/Bolts-chopped-on-Cerro-Torre

Thank you,

Terry Erickson

(edit - my email is not the best. written as I was rushing trying to get out the door on time to work)
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Nov 18, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
Tami, it is not a pesonal attack to call soemone out for doing inappropriate bolting just so they can make a film and money for themselves while ignoring the traditional ethics of the area they are climbing in. I live in a area that has extremes on both sides. An extremely traditional area, the needles, and an area where virtually everything was put up on rappel with a bosch. I have put in routes both ways, but I differ to the local ethics at the given area. For the most part the rock being rap bolted was not climbed in the old days because the limestone had lots of loose rock and could not be protected conventionally and no one cared if we cleaned up the loose stuff and bolted on rappel and it has led to some nice routes. On the other hand the neddles it is defianately a ground up hand bolting only area by ethics and no power drills by law I believe. The other major climbing destination in the area is Devil's Tower and you can no longer put in bolts by law. it is a fact though that at Devil's tower ther is two belay bolts at the end of every pitch which make the place much more convienient to climb at and lead to a lot more use on those pitches as someone can easily bail. That being siad if the bolts only at the normal belays that are traditionally fixed tat I doubt there would be much controversy. This does not sound like the case and bolts were added mid pitch according to what has been written above. Then to leave a mess, lie or at least minimize what has been left and added and to act like you are doing society a favor by making a film is what put it over the top for me. The guide and the climber should both know better and if they did not at least admit to what you did do with honesty.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Nov 18, 2010 - 04:44pm PT
mike m we're on the same side here!

By personal attacks, I mean calling people posting to these threads supertards & Haters.

I also mean by heaping vitriol on Lama. I think he needs an education more then he needs to be throttled; at 20 yrs of age who wasn't filled with hubris & bullsh1t & ready to say how high when asked to jump for money.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 18, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
Bolts chopped on Cerro Torre

Thanks, it has a much better ring than, "Bolts clipped on Cerro Torre".
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Nov 18, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
I received a response from RedBull today. Exactly the same as Terry. Seems they do not recognize their responsibility for the bolting action.

The tone of the note indicates this is just a normal part of doing business RedBull style
Hi Bruce,

Thanks for sending us your concern.

Due to bad weather, the production had to be stopped and is currently on hold whilst waiting for the next Patagonian summer.
Red Bull takes the protection of nature and security of human lives very seriously, and has a long history in producing high quality productions in extreme circumstances and exposed areas. The entire shoulder and wall has been cleaned of not only our, but also older material which was found. Only one haul bag and 30 bolts remain, set only aside the main climbing route necessary for the production crew due to falling ice on the original track. The whole endeavor and every step was planned and executed in close accordance with the local administration of Parque Nacional Los Glaciares. After completion of the project these parts will also be entirely removed.

If you have further questions or concerns, feel free to give us a call at 1(877)673-9444.

Thanks and regards,

Emily
Red Bull
http://www.redbullusa.com

Edit:
I think a guy like Donnini has to call out other Red Bullshit sponsored climbing atheletes about their position on this. Silence is the slippery slope to dammnation here.

Red Bull will continue to do as it see's fit to promote its product, till such actions become Negative Publicity.
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Nov 18, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
Ok folks got am email from Rolo today and the wife is putting the list together here to see if we can push even harder on them to end this destruction but as I said you are barking about an Austrian climber sponsored by an Austrian company so do not expect much.

However i hope that if enough of us drop them emails this may put an end to the drill fest and destruction. Keep sending them emails and I will send this link to all the people at Red Bull USA and see if we can pressure them to end this.

The other thing that is interesting is they are working with the park service thee but does the park service know they are drilling like mad up there? The removal of old junk part is good but it seems to me to be the thing they are focusing on that makes the rest of what is going on ok in thier minds. What a pile of crap and we need to keep the emails going to them at a feverish pace.

Attack!
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 18, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
After writing Red Bull as many others have here, I got the same response---verbatim---from them. Expected of course but I have to imagine they will be working a bit harder to either conceal or improve tactics. Everything is dialectical, you know. If you don't push back, you get walked on.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Nov 18, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
Remember, Red Bull isn't a climbing company. The people and/or machines that responded to our emails with a form letter probably don't really understand that what is happening is not cool, and almost certainly have no comprehension about bolting ethics.

They've been fed the line, and they're responding accordingly. They're also not admitting very much wrongdoing if any, and don't offer any apology.

How do we help them understand mountaineering ethics, what's cool and what isn't, that their boys really crossed the line in a big time bad way, that it makes their company look bad, that what has been told to them is not entirely true, and that physical corrections need to be made?

From the sounds of their letter, they seem to think that they can fix everything just by going back and pulling off a haulbag and some ropes - do they know how difficult it is to remove bolts? Do they understand that it is beyond not cool to place convenient bolts next to natural cracks? From their response it sounds as though they think you can just go up and simply "remove" everything. Do they have any comprehension of the magnitude of the travesty?

Most notably, they appear determined to send back the original team to "complete" the project. Now what?

Keep those cards and letters coming! Wake 'em up. Spread the word to other websites.

mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Nov 18, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
I think the crux of the argument is that they want to protect human life as one of their arguments to justify their actions. The very reason that many of us don't go to places like this is we are risking our ass if we do. It is part of what makes these places exciting or cool, but if we lower the bar just as the compressor route and the red bull crew did we are greatly reducing the places that few people can get to. There are route in my back yard that I am quite sure I will never do just because the protection is not adequate, but I feel that if I am dedicated enough I might be able to knock off a few such as Vertigo or Superpin. On the other hand it will not take long for the most popular and iconic of these places to no longer have a special place if we allow them to be lowered to the lowest common demominator. I am sure that the Conn's, Wiesner, Kor, Robins, Gill, Kamps, Pratt, Bachar, ect., ect., ect. could have climbed just as hard of numbers as the Lama's of today if they had a bolt every 10 feet, but I doubt that Lama or most of the rest of us could climb as hard as they did with the gear that they had at their disposal. If you think you can they still make hexes and pitons and I am sure locker and cosmic can help you find a few bongs.
rolo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2010 - 12:01am PT
Thanks so much for the support.

A couple of clarifications regarding some questions that folks have:

By "chopped" I mean that there is nothing left, no stud outside or other. To Heli’s credit, he was kind enough to drill them “long”. This made the job relatively easy, except for getting up there.

I have a few photos, but haven’t been able to upload them because the internet connection from El Chalten is quite bad. I will try to do that tonight.

I exchanged a few emails with the park service here in Chalten, and with the park superintendent in Calafate even before Red Bull showed up last year and in short they dont feel that climbing ethics is any of their business. The park gets paid good money for the filming permit and that is all they seem to care about (at least the superintendent in Calafate). I plan to send them a “official” printed letter explaining what I have done and why. May be that will result in a reaction. They dont mean bad, they just dont have enough info, nor climbers in their personnel to make an educated decision.

Regarding the comparison to Caldwell and Jorgeson, the bolts added on Cerro Torre are on 5.4 to 5.10 pitches, where perfect natural pro is available everywhere. The Torre bolts don’t serve the purpose of advancing the sport, they serve the purpose of filming a docummercial to promote a brand.

Yes, there is tat in many places, but we can do something about that without having to resort to bolts. It is a different problem that needs addressing but that does not relate.

Perhaps I should not have disclosed the name of the guide, but since the last go around he refused to apologize and admit any mistakes, and since he plainly lied to Will Gadd, I figure there was no need anymore to keep his cover.

and no, it is not a troll.
Thorgon

Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:03am PT
Good on ya' Rolo!

It is time to take a stand!



Thor
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:04am PT
I think the crux of the argument is that they want to protect human life as one of their arguments to justify their actions. The very reason that many of us don't go to places like this is we are risking our ass if we do. It is part of what makes these places exciting or cool, but if we lower the bar just as the compressor route and the red bull crew did we are greatly reducing the places that few people can get to.

The Torre bolts don’t serve the purpose of advancing the sport, they serve the purpose of filming a docummercial to promote a brand.


+1
+1


rolo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2010 - 01:21am PT
one photo, another one coming

after removal, studs showing next to perfect cracks, right on the rout...
after removal, studs showing next to perfect cracks, right on the route.
Credit: rolo
mongrel

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:32am PT
Well, since everyone (myself included) is getting the same automatic e-mail, verbatim, it's clearly time to elevate the complaint to higher levels in the company. The publicity folks simply do not see that anything that was done was wrong in the slightest, and they never will. But that being the case, the only effective means is going to be to try to educate them that it's bad marketing and will lose them sales, not gain them. I do not know how to quickly find out who is CEO for Red Bull USA, or worldwide, but that's where we need to be going, and getting AAC, UIAA, and others to weigh in.

And keep bumping this up.
rolo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2010 - 01:37am PT
one more example, this before "chopping"

like all the "Red Bull" bolts I found on Torre, perfect cracks were al...
like all the "Red Bull" bolts I found on Torre, perfect cracks were always close by.
Credit: rolo
rolo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2010 - 01:44am PT
Regarding the cookie cutter responses folks are getting from Red Bull USA, according to an anonymous source the person responsible for the project was/is

Susanne Degn

susanne.degn@at.redbullmediahouse.com

Red Bull Media House GmbH
Oberst-Lepperdinger-Strasse 11
5071 Wals bei Salzburg
Austria

phone: +43.662.2240-0 (reception desk)

e9climbing.blogspot.com

Mountain climber
Alps
Nov 19, 2010 - 03:41am PT
Rolo


I admire your effort and I respect what you have done and I think it was a great initiative! I agree 100 per cent with you that what Caldwel/ Jorgeson is doing is pushing climbing limits forward, thats exactly my point. If I was unclear I apologize.

This bolts is kind of a rape. And I understand your reasons for publishing the name of the Guide better now. I just don't think he should be the center of attention since I think the easy way out for both Red Bull and Lama would be to make him the scape goat.

David
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:00am PT
I think all three parties are responsible. If they didn't know what was going on they should have.
WBraun

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:07am PT
Well ....

The exact same thing has been going on El Cap for 20-30 years now.

In early 70's there were anchor/s which had no bolts but perfect cracks.

Now there are 5 bolts at the very same anchor/s.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:11am PT
Bolts next to perfect cracks are NEVER excusable regardless of any past precedents there or elsewhere.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:20am PT
What about rappel anchors, Jim?

I mean, I'm not sure I've seen many folks walk off from the top of those perfect splitter Indian Creek routes...

Etc etc.
WBraun

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:27am PT
But El Cap is really "Urban" climbing.

400 to 500 yards from a road close to the city of Yosemite and easy access from major metropolitan centers.

The only thing it has going for it above and beyond is the mysterious forces of NATURE, which no one has any power over ultimately ......
marv

Mountain climber
Bay Area
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:29am PT
Indian Creek is a crag. El Cap is a crag.
Cerro Torre is arguably the singular icon of hard alpine climbing.
Ain't no flatlander

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:34am PT
Rolo, any signs of chiseled holds? If they are wimpy enough to bolt next to cracks, they likely don't have any scruples about lowering the rest of the climb to their standard.

Would be nice for Will to speak up on this latest revelation....
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:41am PT
Cerro Torre is arguably the singular icon of hard alpine climbing.

Right. But, folks gotta get down, and, most folks summit via the Compressor Route.

Not supporting what the Red Bullshit crew did. But, to make a blanket statement that there should never be a bolt next to a crack...

Good job, Rolo! Let's see some more photo's!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:47am PT
You can make a blanket statement that there should never be a bolt next to a perfect crack regardless of the circumstances. If you summit you should have the hardware needed for descent and perfect cracks make for perfect rap anchors.
213

climber
Where the Froude number often >> 1
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:48am PT
Email sent to susanne
The user formerly known as stzzo

Social climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:52am PT
For the guides it was of course the most important thing to guarantee the safety of the crew. Beyond that it was of great importance to me that other climbers in the route would not be disturbed by the production and that the mountain would be strained as minimally as possible.

I know others have implied this. I'm just clarifying it.

Their priorities are backwards. If the guides can't guarantee safety without disturbing the other climbers in the route or straining the mountain minimally as possible, the appropriate response would be: "We won't take you", not "We'll throw in bolts so you can do your thing."

Obviously, they didn't "strain the mountain as minimally as possible" (using a loose interpretation of the word "strain", but consistent with their usage as far as I can tell), and by altering the route thusly they disturbed not only many climbers on the route but also many future climbers.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Nov 19, 2010 - 11:55am PT
You can make a blanket statement that there should never be a bolt next to a perfect crack regardless of the circumstances. If you summit you should have the hardware needed for descent and perfect cracks make for perfect rap anchors.


True. You can make the statement. But, the reality is, on many many trade routes, there are bolted rappel anchors. We use 'em.

Slippery slope I suppose.

Hmmm....
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
I am not saying that you shouldn't use existing rap anchors. I am saying that if you establish rap anchors you should never do so by putting a bolt in next to a perfect crack- Never! Never! Never!

I have made over a thousand raps over four decades on virgin alpine terrain on seven continents and have never placed a bolt next to a perfect crack and I'm still here.
nature

climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
rolo - thank you for your efforts.


The only thing it has going for it above and beyond is the mysterious forces of NATURE, which no one has any power over ultimately ......

uh... .huh .huh.... i like... beg to differ



Jim, how would you go about putting in the rap/end anchors to so many perfect crack pitches in Indian Creek? What are the other options?
WBraun

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
Down climb.

Don't cha know anything?

:-)

Degaine

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
donini wrote:

If you summit you should have the hardware needed for descent and perfect cracks make for perfect rap anchors.


I am saying that if you establish rap anchors you should never do so by putting a bolt in next to a perfect crack- Never! Never! Never!


Honest question: what's the difference? In both cases gear is left for others to deal with.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
Kind of a topic that's outside the scope of this thread?

I carry a bolt kit sometimes. I'd rather leave a bolted anchor next to a perfectly good crack than a #3 Camalot (edit to add) as a rappel anchor.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
Degaine, a nut, cam or even a piton are not only easier to remove than a bolt, they are far easier to place, so placing a bolt makes little sense logistically. Admittedly, rap anchors, no matter what there nature, are not removed. Placing protection blots next to cracks is more egregious because protection is removed by the second whereas bolts cannot be.

Rap bolts placed next to perfect cracks in Patagonia are done by climbers who are using power drills and sieging routes. These same climbers are putting in the needless protection bolts that have proliferated in recent years.
Routes in Patagonia should be done in alpine style. Yes, style does matter!
WBraun

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
Donini -- "I am saying that if you establish rap anchors you should never do so by putting a bolt in next to a perfect crack- Never! Never! Never!"
LOL .... hows that gonna work in a place like Yosemite or other highly populated climbing areas?

Look at the Cookie cliff for example.

Sure, yea we can leave some pins bashed in the crack, that will work.

Once I stuck a rock in the crack and put a sling around it all while Bachar said we're gonna die.

I backed it up for him with cams so he wouldn't die since he wanted to go first.

Ya can't blame him .... :-)
rincon

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
one more example, this before "chopping"


What's that look like after the chop?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
Werner, on further self examination I realize that I am being hypocritical. I just got back from IC where there are over a thousand bolted rap anchors next to cracks- some placed by me. I guess I am making a distinction between popular cragging areas and the alpine arena. I'm sure to be called to task for that.
As I said in an earlier post the rap bolts in Patagonia are left by teams with power drill who are also placing needless protection bolts next to cracks.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
Placing protection blots next to cracks is more egregious because protection is removed by the second whereas bolts cannot be removed.

I think Rolo just showed that they can...(!)

Rap bolts placed next to perfect cracks in Patagonia are done by climbers who are using power drills and sieging routes.
Routes in Patagonia should be done in alpine style. Yes, style does matter!


What about trade routes? Like the Compressor Route? Should all the bolts be yanked and folks forced to leave gear on descent?

Part of me wonders if folks who use rappel bolts instead of gear, but, still say routes shouldn't have bolts, are a bit hypocritical (struggling with the phrasing here as I don't want Jim on my ass!).

Jim, my bet is if you added up all the rappelling you've done, say, in the last 5 years...that, a significant number of those rappels were on bolted anchors right next to cracks. Indian Creek, Red Rocks, Castle Rock (geez, I might have some photo's of that, ha ha) etc etc. Sure, you didn't place them, but, you also didn't remove them either or leave gear instead of using them.

Oh, man, I'm in trouble now...

This probably needs its own thread, but, it is somewhat applicable to the topic as folks gotta get down off trade routes somehow, and, really, are bolts not acceptable for descent in alpine terrain even on often attempted and climbed routes?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
I've worked myself a bit into a corner. Style matters because climbing doesn't. If there were a cure for cancer on the top of Cerro Torre any means to get there would be justified.
Climbing has evolved via knowledge, training, equip. etc. As climbing evolves style should follow.
The Compressor Route is an abomination; certainly not an example to be emulated.
WBraun

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
donini

I know what you're really getting at here and that's what really matters.

I believe most people here know too.

And then we have ...

Hooorrraaahh man

See yea at the top when we rap off that tied tied off twig ....
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
There are tons of traditional climbing areas with bolted anchors Devil's Tower being the best example in my area, but each time anchors are added it decreases the commitment level. Super popular climbs there like the first pitches One Way Sunset, El Mat, Carol's Crack ect. would not get done nearly as often if one had to top out to get off with out leaving gear. I think anyone that has trad climbed for very long has used them, but I don't think it is hypocritical to wish that there can still be places left where this is not the case. How would people feel if i wanted to make of film of climbing for profit, advertising or whatever and I installed two bolts at the end of every pitch on something like Pingora where the last time I was there I don't recall one bolt, belay or otherwise, on the entire 1500ft route. I would just like to see some places left as they are as a tribute to those that came first. This route had been done pletty without those bolts being there.
dustonian

climber
RRG
Nov 19, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
Good job, Rolo! Thanks for doing this.
SGropp

Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
Nov 19, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
In the greater scheme of things this is the proverbial ''tempest in a teapot'', but in the smaller world of climbing the question of ethics matters a great deal.

This editorial from Alpinist gives some needed historical perspective and sums up pretty well why ethics and human impact do matter.



http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP31/editors-note


Tami

Social climber
Canada
Nov 19, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
The email for Susanne D ( as noted in Rolo's prior post ) bounced for me. Anybody else ?


And SGropp I respectfully disagree about this being a tempest in a teapot. This involves a multinational corp with big bucks; never underestimate the mouse that roars.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 19, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
Tami, I sent an email to

susanne.degn@at.redbullmediahouse.com

last night, and another a little while ago. haven't got a bounceback on either one. maybe check the address....

(edit) Tami - we need a Lama and Putz cartoon as someone suggested upthread

Peter - i got one of the template responses the other day, so I responded to that... am thinking of making "NO MORE Red Boltsh**t" stickers...
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 19, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
Steve, great link there. I missed those comments by Kennedy. Gotta love him.

Kunlun, Red Bull is issuing out automatic responses to all of our queries (see above); the complaints do good though and without a doubt are souring things for everyone that was involved. When Lama gets his Big Boy pants finally, maybe he will understand what our view might be.

Now on to Tami. Tami, back off, Hon; put down the candy, stand away from the child----this one is mine. Donini clearly has said upthread that the summit mushroom on Cerro Torre (don’t make me post that “Cerro Torre: the fourth Flatiron” image again) cures cancers. All of them. What the hell do you think is going to take place now? I see legions of the sick and of curanderos, headed south like army ants, don’t you? What about plumbing; remember we were talking about that too. These sacred playspaces cannot go without proper plumbing, T !?!? Also I want a plastic Tami action figure that matches your avatar. 1” high is okay; just a paperweight you see.
Shouldah

climber
Nov 19, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
Donini said, "Style matters because climbing doesn't. If there were a cure for cancer on the top of Cerro Torre any means to get there would be justified."

perfectly stated...goes way beyond the lama debacle
e9climbing.blogspot.com

Mountain climber
Alps
Nov 19, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
@ donini


"Style matters because climbing doesn't" One of the best one liners ever!!!!!!


a fun one for Lama

"In the 60's sex was safe and climbing was dangerous. Now it's the other way around."

Degaine

climber
Nov 20, 2010 - 09:33am PT
donini, thanks for the honest and well thought out answer. FYI,no agenda or anything other than wanting to know your point of view.

Cheers.
Beagle

Trad climber
CO
Nov 21, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
Ok all of you tough patagoniac's, if this bolt chopping thing is so important how come you let the abomination of the Pilar Rojo go un-contested. That thing has numerous (+/- 50) bolts right next to splitter cracks on every pitch and the FA'ers did it just to facilitate easier repeats, and every belay is bolted at 100' from the last so you only have to bring one rope. So, put your crow bar where your mouth is. Are you really motivated by the pura vida or is it something else entirely? Also, chopping bolts off flush with the rock is like only picking up half of the litter you find...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 21, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
Not to play devil's advocate, but don't commercial climbers do similar things to what was done on Cerro Torre, all the time? (OK, the general climbing public too.) The over-development in much of the Alps being the classic example - teleferiques, "via ferratas", huts, and on and on. Not to mention many places in the world where bolts are placed as a matter of course, even if reasonable natural protection is available. Ladders on Chomolungma, fixed lines on the popular 8,000 m peaks, caches and fixed lines all over El Cap, the high environmental impacts of climbing generally and commercial climbing particularly - even if individuals often make a credible effort to look after the immediate are where they're climbing. And, of course, that film crews, riggers, and 'guides' of various sorts often behave as though they own the places they're using, and will do whatever they believe necessary?

Imagine Yosemite, without the NPS to fend off at least some of the commercial and development onslaught.

Lama, Red Bull and their accomplices may be somewhat mystified by the reaction, given that they do similar things elsewhere without reaction, and that Cerro Torre and area is hardly pristine.

As for bolts to facilitate rappelling - in most frontcountry rock climbing areas in Canada and the US, where a route is often rappelled, it now seems acceptable practice for there to be fixed anchors to facilitate it, even if natural anchors are available. It significantly reduces the amount of junk anchors and slings on climbs. It also, perhaps unfortunately, makes things a bit too convenient at times (no such thing as convenient or safe climbing), and perhaps encourages the mindset that belays should be bolted, even where not normally used for rappelling.
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Nov 21, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
How dare you in anyway question Rolo, he is after all one of the few Living Gods left on Earth. . .
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 21, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
Yes, I'm not worthy to polish Senor Garibotti's carabiners. :-)

But that doesn't mean I can't comment on the issue.
WBraun

climber
Nov 21, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
Huh?

First one must polish, then one can comment .....
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 21, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
I could not agree with you more MH- it certainly is a mess out there. That doesn't mean that we should not try to incorporate some "best practices" into climbing to reduce further damage. It also follows that reducing some of the in situ garbage on many of the World's iconic peaks would be a good thing. Keep in mind that there are organizations everywhere trying to repair environmental damage- why shouldn't climbers do the same?
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Nov 21, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
Yeah, it is happening all the time all over the place but that don't make it right. I have been told that the local climbing org is talking about adding bolts to iconic routes like Vertigo and have already done so to others. I am sure I will never do some of these routes such as they are, but I am OK with that. I guess Superpin, Hairypin, and the needles eye could use about ten more bolts each. Where is Henry Barber when you need him.
señor huynh

Mountain climber
Bay Area
Nov 24, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
Thank you, Rolo. Stay safe.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 24, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
First one must polish, then one can comment .....


I don't understand why Werner thinks people from poland are so special.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 25, 2010 - 02:33am PT
Because man, once you go Pole you never go droll.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Got my DOUBLEWIDE!
Nov 30, 2010 - 09:27am PT
I hope in the fervor to clean up the mountains the Compressor Route stays intact. Argue its negative aspects all you wish - that route was there before any of yall. What gives anyone the right to remove it?

Cleaning up film crew garbage, I get that; applaud it actually. But attacking a dead man's route, particularly one so controversial and important to world climbing history, would be tragic and express a level of hubris equal to the creation of the route to begin with.

DMT
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 30, 2010 - 09:52am PT
Right DM. The compressor is actually now as iconic as the Rotten Log was on Royal Arches.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 30, 2010 - 09:57am PT
One wonders how long it can hang up there.

Remember in Cumbre when Marco Pedrini climbs onto it and pretends to rev it up like a motorcycle?
colin henderson

climber
Nov 30, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
> attacking a dead man's route

Are you perhaps thinking of Toni Egger and the NE ridge route on the other side of the mountain? The Compressor bolted route on the SE ridge was instigated by Maestri and as far as I am aware he is still alive?
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Nov 30, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
Maestri and Egger never did the North Face, Rolo proved this when he sent it. The Kompresser Route has over 300 Bolts, most next to 5.10 or A1 Cracks it's a junk show. . .
jschaefer

Sport climber
Munich, Germany
Dec 1, 2010 - 01:23am PT
Well done! Thx!
shipoopoi

Big Wall climber
oakland
Dec 1, 2010 - 04:24am PT
wow, i was on squeeze play when this thread hit, so a little late here. cerro torre is a beautiful mountain, with a storied history, and it sucks to have bolts put up and then chopped. i cannot fathom that anybody would spray more bolts on the compressor route after all the controversy over the bolts placed there 40 years ago. what were they thinking? ss
eagle

Trad climber
new paltz, ny
Dec 2, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
next time i see this f*#ker i will chop his head off
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Dec 2, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
Eagle, Just to clarify which F**ker are you talking about?
Byrner

Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
Dec 2, 2010 - 07:08pm PT
Thanks, Rolo. Chop the damn bolts!
pk_davidson

Trad climber
Albuquerque, NM
Dec 2, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
"Style does matter especially given the fact that climbing has no intrinsic value to anyone but the climber. "

Well said Jim.
Mad Dogg

climber
Dec 5, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
Thanks for sharing to info on this, Rolo! Good to let the truth be heard.

And, I'm very psyched to hear that you have been up on Cerro Torre, this year already! That has got to be a great place to be, even if you're dealing with trash.
Kinobi

climber
Dec 12, 2010 - 03:48am PT
Ciao,

OT: just a quick question. From the photos I saw handmade hangers and bolts placed too close each other. Do you have more photos?
I mean, we can discuss forever they did a poor thing in placing the bolts, abut also the bolts were "tecnically" placed poorly. Not a great job by a professional.
Ciao,
E
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Dec 21, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
Rolo

Please check your email I forwarded the response direct to you and you can respond either here or to me directly.

To bring some of you up to speed here I have had my wife who has contacts at RB send Rolo's original post to the top here and then off to Austria. They responded and I sent that to Rolo. He is at liberty to post it if he likes but I wanted him to verify this as true or call BS and then we need to get on hammering and make sure they do what they say they are going to do.

Rolo hope all is well and that email is fact not fiction. They admit that 30 bolts were placed and that all ropes and bags are gone but one with gear in it. I think you said some guides removed three bags and many feet of rope.

Anyway I hope this gets them moving in a way that is not so destructive to the rock and the route.

Comicscragsman

Social climber
Jan 4, 2011 - 02:10am PT
Credit: Tami Knight - Alpinist 33
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 4, 2011 - 02:16am PT
I like the dude rap bolting the cloud....classic.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jan 4, 2011 - 02:46am PT
Yeah I did that. :-D
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2011 - 11:11am PT
No bolts bump.
rolo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2011 - 01:26am PT
Hope you all "survived" the holidays. Ours were quite sad because of the death of a well respected Brazilian climber high up on Fitz Roy.

Went back up on Cerro Torre yesterday, with Colin Haley and Doerte Pietron. We chopped 12 more of the "Red Bull" bolts, these part of the rap line that Heli Putz bolted. As I mentioned before and as Colin can assert, these were all along one of the many alternate rap routes that one can take from the shoulder down, never far away from existing rap stations. We only chopped 12 because it was very warm, too warm, so we bailed 3/4 of the way up to the shoulder afraid for potential rock fall, wet slides, etc. These bolts were not drilled long, so I could not just hammer them in, but luckily they are all zinc plated so with only 10 hammer blows they broke, very cleanly, flush with the rock (all but two unfortunately).

The Lama-RB crew is showing up in a few days, on the 13th I believe. Hopefully they will have gotten the message and they will behave in these mountains the same way they would behave if they were in their own home mountains, with a little more respect.

regards
rolo

rolo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2011 - 01:37am PT
Regarding "Kinobi's" question, yes, the configuration of the belay and rappel stations was/is more than questionable. Each station involves two bolts that are less than 10 centimeters from each other, linked by one big fat ring. Putting the bolts so close together is technically wrong and also having them both work at the same time, with no redundancy, is also technically wrong. Last, Heli mixed zinc platted bolts with stainless steel hangers, so this was/is also technically wrong because of galvanic corrosion. As Kinobi points out it is weird that a so called professional would make such mistakes.

regards
rolo
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 11, 2011 - 01:47am PT
Thanks for the report, and work!
Hopefully they will have gotten the message and they will behave in these mountains the same way they would behave if they were in their own home mountains, with a little more respect.
How do they behave in their home mountains and cliffs?
Kinobi

climber
Jan 11, 2011 - 02:38am PT
Thanks Rolo for the clarification.
May be they call themselves professionals, but they are not.

A basic knowledge of bolting, would not have led to that kind of equipment, not to that kind of placement.
As far as I see, also the hangers are not EN959, and if they had the intention to remove the gear, they could have used the Multi-Monti system, that beside being stronger than a regular bolt, can be unscrewed leaving just the hole.
http://www.heco.it/it/catalogo/prodotti/heco-multi-monti/

Even in Austria they know that kind of bolts...
Ciao,
E

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 11, 2011 - 07:14am PT
Putz indeed!

Thanks Rolo.
Disaster Master

Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
Jan 11, 2011 - 08:47am PT
I have not seen this angle adressed here:

In "Adventure or alpine" areas, especialy when used for filming / etc., bolts show lack of courage, thought, or the inabillity to put style over cost. If they needed to leave rap anchors, perhaps they should have left nuts and cams. Still something left behind and contributing to TAT-agonia. But MUCH easier to remove by anyone who cares to upon discovery. A large production company could easily absorb the cost of fixed camalots instead of fixed rawls.

The need for anti-theft (see below) is not there if they were to be removed (yeah, right) anyway.

There is
the mindset that belays should be bolted, even where not normally used for rappelling.
at many areas. I like a quick clip in belay , too. But if you don't have to rap from it, there is no need for fixed bolts on multi pitch belays. These are convienience bolts.


Yeah, yeah, lots of loaded words there.

I am a power drill wielding sporto who has placed a lot of bolts. But not in places like those talked of here. I could have made a name for myself in the ranges with my bulldog by my side. But for what? Instead I choose my game with some restraint (really.).

I have also logged a lot of time on gear and in the mountains. I am not an alpine hardman, by choice and circumstances. Don't mean I can't offer a valid point.



donini


Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado Nov 19, 2010 - 10:05am PT
Werner, on further self examination I realize that I am being hypocritical. I just got back from IC where there are over a thousand bolted rap anchors next to cracks- some placed by me. I guess I am making a distinction between popular cragging areas and the alpine arena. I'm sure to be called to task for that.

One reason many rap stations are bolted at "Crags" even if near the end of a crack is that gear is expensive to leave. And even if you leave the gear instead of bolting, someone will repete or rap down and take some or all of that gear. Eventully bolts will appear there anyway. The only anti-theft solution at a crag would be to glue the nuts / cams in that are fixed. A silly destructive thought due to replacement issues.



If there were a cure for cancer on the top of Cerro Torre any means to get there would be justified."


If only it were there Jim. I would be paying you to haul my ass there. :)


edit:
A basic knowledge of bolting, would not have led to that kind of equipment, not to that kind of placement.
As far as I see, also the hangers are not EN959, and if they had the intention to remove the gear, they could have used the Multi-Monti system, that beside being stronger than a regular bolt, can be unscrewed leaving just the hole.

THis or other removable bolt options would be a good alterative if there is no protectable feature AND you think the hole is worth it. Climb tech made / still makes removable bolts like slider nuts. Fixe makes a removabe standard type bolt....
Stanley da Costa

Trad climber
Queenstown New Zealand
Feb 11, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
Wow needle rappel in the cold!!!!! That sounds very extreme Mister M !!!!
To many people giving opinion in things they have no clue what they are talking about...
About those kids at Torre, Bad attitude, great style!!!. Thats how a mountain should be climbed. If you cant do it by fair means go climb something else. A think the locals Argentinean climbers are the ones that had been disrespected. They should be made part of the decision to chop those bolts.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Feb 11, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
Gosh Stanley you are a day late anna dollar short. But I spoze it's tomorrow in NZ so no sprizes 'bout that.

There is a bilillillion post thread about this in case yer wondering.

I'll be sporting and leave it to you to find it :-)
Randisi

Boulder climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Feb 12, 2012 - 05:17am PT
Sporting? Nah, Tami.

Here's the thread, Stanley:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1725375/Cerro-Torre-A-Mountain-Consecrated-The-Resurrection-of-th
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 23, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
Here's a nice slideshow and history of the routes on Cerro Torre, by master storyteller Kelly Cordes:

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 23, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
Don Paul,

The video gives a brief and well done description of the no bolt ascents of Cerro Torre.

The justification of the chopping is as bad as ever. Two guys, Kennedy and Kruk, carrying out the will of their heros (as they call them), acting as two errand boys aggressively chopping their way down the mountain believing in their holy war against the bolts (my words) after the sacrilege of bolting (sacrilege is their own word).

Just forget the justification of the chopping. Time will let the aggressive acts be forgotten - both the bolting and the chopping.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 23, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
I just assume Cerro Torre is way over my head and the best I could hope to do is to go trekking there someday. The mushroom thing looks impossible. Overhanging snow with the consistency of cotton candy, above an alpine wall notorious for bad weather. Kelly Cordis often talks about going too far and being lucky to be still alive.

The compressor thing sounds pretty gross. I mean, who brings an air compressor on a climbing route? I see your point though, its water under the bridge now, and no one else seems interested to put up bolted routes there and probably no need to make a statement. Although, it may be a better route now without the bolts, one I doubt I will ever see.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 27, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Aug 27, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
I would suggest everyone read Alpinist #39 (currrent issue today). There is a very finely graded and reasoned discussion regarding this whole issue, and everyone will be better for reading the whole section there. Especially Rolo Garibotti's astoundingly well-reasoned essay response. Rolo has to be one of the very finest writers in our field today.

Thanks Don Paul for these two video links, also!!
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Aug 27, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
What's all this about bolts chopped on Cerro Torre?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 28, 2012 - 11:19am PT
Randisi, see the Kelly Cordes video a couple of posts up. He tells the story of the first ascent, which made use of an air compressor to drill hundreds of bolts. Then recently these two younger guys blast up it in 13 hours, on the same route but not using the bolts, and have time to chop them on the way down. Not that I wanted to start a debate about bolting and chopping, I just think Cerro Torre is really cool.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 28, 2012 - 11:42am PT
Bring Cerro Torre back to a pristine state....the bolts (at least some) have been chopped, now get some earth moving machinery and get that abomination named El Chalten the hell out of the valley.

edit: Of course we having some cleaning up to do in our own backyard....Yosemite Valley comes to mind.
ducha

Trad climber
rio de janeiro
Nov 4, 2012 - 08:25am PT
I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THAT THE 1959 C. MAESTRI ROUTE WAS NOT TRULY CLIMBED, THAT THE FIRST ASCENT WAS SET BY C. FERRARI AND THE RAGNI GROUP, THE 1970 COMPRESSOR ROUTE HAS VERY POOR STYLE AND HAS BEEN FINISHED BY J. BRIDWELL, K & K CLIMB WAS CLEAN, THAT D. LAMA FREED THE INTIRE WALL: BUT NOTHING THAT JUSTIFIED ANY CHANGE OF THE ORIGINAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE COMPRESSOR ROUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 4, 2012 - 08:40am PT
ssssshhhhhh
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 5, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
Bump
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