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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 10, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
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What he said!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 10, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
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ballistic Matso igniting swamp gas....
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 10, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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Aliens going back home.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Nov 10, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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Dr. Evil?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 10, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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Yep, visual perspective in important, so we can't be sure it rose from the ocean. Too slow to be a military missile as well.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Nov 10, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
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Believe it or not. Pics don't come with:
November 10, 2010 -- Pentagon and its embedded media covering up Chinese show of force off LA
China flexed its military muscle Monday evening in the skies west of Los Angeles when a Chinese Navy Jin class ballistic missile nuclear submarine, deployed secretly from its underground home base on the south coast of Hainan island, launched an intercontinental ballistic missile from international waters off the southern California coast. WMR's intelligence sources in Asia, including Japan, say the belief by the military commands in Asia and the intelligence services is that the Chinese decided to demonstrate to the United States its capabilities on the eve of the G-20 Summit in Seoul and the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Tokyo, where President Obama is scheduled to attend during his ten-day trip to Asia.
The reported Chinese missile test off Los Angeles came as a double blow to Obama. The day after the missile firing, China's leading credit rating agency, Dagong Global Credit Rating, downgraded sovereign debt rating of the United States to A-plus from AA. The missile demonstration coupled with the downgrading of the United States financial grade represents a military and financial show of force by Beijing to Washington.
The Pentagon spin machine, backed by the media reporters who regularly cover the Defense Department, as well as officials of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), and the U.S. Northern Command, is now spinning various conspiracy theories, including describing the missile plume videotaped by KCBS news helicopter cameraman Gil Leyvas at around 5:00 pm Pacific Standard Time, during the height of evening rush hour, as the condensation trail from a jet aircraft. Other Pentagon-inspired cover stories are that the missile was actually an amateur rocket or an optical illusion.
Experts agree that this was a ballistic missile being fired off of Los Angeles. Pentagon insists it was a jet aircraft or model rocket.
There are no records of a plane in the area having taken off from Los Angeles International Airport or from other airports in the region. The Navy and Air Force have said that they were not conducting any missile tests from submarines, ships, or Vandenberg Air Force Base. The Navy has also ruled out an accidental firing from one of its own submarines.
Missile experts, including those from Jane's in London, say the plume was definitely from a missile, possibly launched from a submarine. WMR has learned that the missile was likely a JL-2 ICBM, which has a range of 7,000 miles, and was fired in a northwesterly direction over the Pacific and away from U.S. territory from a Jin class submarine. The Jin class can carry up to twelve such missiles.
Navy sources have revealed that the missile may have impacted on Chinese territory and that the National Security Agency (NSA) likely posseses intercepts of Chinese telemtry signals during the missile firing and subsequent testing operations.
Japanese and other Asian intelligence agencies believe that a Chinese Jin-class SSBN submarine conducted missile "show of force" in skies west of Los Angeles.
Asian intelligence sources believe the submarine transited from its base on Hainan through South Pacific waters, where U.S. anti-submarine warfare detection capabilities are not as effective as they are in the northern and mid-Pacific, and then transited north to waters off of Los Angeles. The Pentagon, which has spent billions on ballistic missile defense systems, a pet project of former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, is clearly embarrassed over the Chinese show of strength.
Likely route of Jin-class submarine from Hainan base.
The White House also wants to donwplay the missile story before Presidnet Obama meets with his Chinese counterpart in Seoul and Tokyo. According to Japanese intelligence sources, Beijing has been angry over United States and allied naval exercises in the South China and Yellow Seas, in what China considers its sphere of influence, and the missile firing within the view of people in Southern California was a demonstration that China's navy can also play in waters off the American coast.
For the U.S. Navy, the Chinese show of force is a huge embarassment, especially for the Navy's Pacific Command in Pearl Harbor, where Japan's December 7, 1941 attack on the fleet at Pearl Harbor remains a sore subject.
In 2002, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice reportedly scolded visiting Chinese General Xiong Guankai, the deputy chief of staff for intelligence of the People's Liberation Army, for remarks he allegedly made in 1995 that China would use nuclear weapons on Los Angeles. Xiong denied he made any such comments but the "spin" on the story helped convince Congress to sink billions of additional dollars into ballistic missile defense, sometimes referred to at "Star Wars II."
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 10, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
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Aliens going back home.
I don't think it was aliens going home, but rather a couple STers (you know who they are) headed up to rendezvous with the aliens on the dark side of the moon. If we see another unexplainable "missile" in a day or so, we'll know they're back.
Meanwhile, keep track of who hasn't posted since the sighting.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 10, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
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heck, just an advertisement--we get them all the time over venice beach--goodyear blimp, little biplanes pulling "caca-colo" signs. now a missile saying "shop chinese".
btw, 35 miles north of catalina island would have the submarine running aground on venice beach.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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Nice find GC.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
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ddriver please post a link to that informtive article
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
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In the very unlikely event that it was a missile launched from a Chinese submarine:
1. It would have been an IRBM, not an ICBM.
2. Do the Chinese have such capabilities?
3. They would almost certainly have notified the US military before the launch - see below.
4. There would be abundant, indeed overwhelming, ground and satellite data on what happened.
A surprise missile launch from a foreign submarine (probably not "unknown" or "stealth") in US coastal waters would very likely be treated as an attack, inviting immediate retaliation. Given the short time frames involved, and the uncertainty as to target(s), hard to do anything else. It seems extremely likely that it wasn't a missile launch.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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Ironman III
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jstan
climber
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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We have a pretty extensive sonar network off all of our coasts. Even were the submarine not detected directly( dubious) the launch of the missile should have been. Lot of cavitation in a missile launch and at a very suggestive pass band. Cavitation makes it very hard to conceal high speed screws so that will be a pass band of high interest.
And oh. The last thing the Navy would do is confirm this and thus allow our national technical means to be gauged.
Read GC's link.
http://uncinus.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/4/
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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They have a special on IRBMs this week. Aisle 666.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
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http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/articles/20101110
Wayne Madsen Report.
Wayne is a very brave soul. Former Navy and NSA agent.
To read the article you have to be a paying member.
I've learned a great deal over the years from Wayne Madsen.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
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you can usually visually identify a missile that exits the atmosphere by seeing the contrail bloom out sideways into a dramatically wider trail as the vehicle transits out of the atmosphere and atmospheric pressure ceases to constrain the width of the trail
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
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To read the article you have to be a paying member.
So, since none of us is a paying member, pointing to the article doesn't do much. Can you copy and paste? Or do a clear summary?
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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FauxNews Poll:
What Was the Mystery Launch?
U.S. missile 35.17% (7,555 votes)
Foreign missile 26.27% (5,643 votes)
Civilian rocket 12.06% (2,590 votes)
Commercial jet 14.44% (3,101 votes)
Alien spacecraft 5.24% (1,126 votes)
Optical illusion 2.45% (527 votes)
Other (leave a comment) 4.36% (937 votes)
Total Votes: 21,479
EDIT: Please note the question - What Was the Mystery Launch?
Typical FauxNews
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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Proof positive that only 16.89% of Faux viewers have brains.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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I did not see this but I heard a report that there was a visible bow shock. These are commonly observed on rockets from Vandenberg but never on jet planes.
I can't wait until the military comes out with their final statement. The fact that they still don't have a press release is super weird.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 10, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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Something happened ....
The military freaks out and mobilizes their disinformation team.
Supertopo freaks out and launches their disinformation team.
Nobody that really knows is getting through.
Only the disinformation crew is allowed safe passage ....
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 10, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
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I'm with MH and jstan on this one.
I don't know that the chinese have sub-launched ICBM capability. Even if they did, they would be very unlikely to launch a test
from that close to the US.
It would make too many folks too nervous, as there would be almost zero response time.
The link to the HI-AZ plane contrail explanation seems pretty conclusive. If that's not right, and it was a missile launch, it was almost certainly one of ours that they just dont want to talk about.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 10, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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The Chinese are flexing their muscles a bit these days, and their military isn't entirely controlled by the apparatchiks. But they're hardly fool enough to engage in high-risk missile launches off the US coast. There are few other countries with the capability (France, Britain, Russia, Israel, maybe India?), mostly US allies or friendlies.
Using Occam's Razor, a nifty gadget which I encourage conspiracy theorists to cut themselves with, if there was a missile launch at all, it was of US origin.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 10, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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Just see how they're all guessing again.
Guess enough and then it will embed in the brain as some hope as truth .....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 10, 2010 - 04:19pm PT
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Yes, Werner, we're estimating probabilities - the conspiracy theorists aside, that is. Just like you do when planning and holding a search. Gathering and assessing information, working out what else we need to know and how we're going to find out, coming to a reasonable hypothesis as to what happened, then testing it, and modifying it as needed.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 10, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
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Ghost,
The following is the link to the article, which the poster did not give . . .
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/articles/20101110
Wayne Madsen Report.
Wayne is a very brave soul. Former Navy and NSA agent.
To read the article you have to be a paying member.
I've learned a great deal over the years from Wayne Madsen.
Thanks to ddriver we got to read the following . . .
Believe it or not. Pics don't come with:
November 10, 2010 -- Pentagon and its embedded media covering up Chinese show of force off LA
China flexed its military muscle Monday evening in the skies west of Los Angeles when a Chinese Navy Jin class ballistic missile nuclear submarine, deployed secretly from its underground home base on the south coast of Hainan island, launched an intercontinental ballistic missile from international waters off the southern California coast. WMR's intelligence sources in Asia, including Japan, say the belief by the military commands in Asia and the intelligence services is that the Chinese decided to demonstrate to the United States its capabilities on the eve of the G-20 Summit in Seoul and the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Tokyo, where President Obama is scheduled to attend during his ten-day trip to Asia.
The reported Chinese missile test off Los Angeles came as a double blow to Obama. The day after the missile firing, China's leading credit rating agency, Dagong Global Credit Rating, downgraded sovereign debt rating of the United States to A-plus from AA. The missile demonstration coupled with the downgrading of the United States financial grade represents a military and financial show of force by Beijing to Washington.
The Pentagon spin machine, backed by the media reporters who regularly cover the Defense Department, as well as officials of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), and the U.S. Northern Command, is now spinning various conspiracy theories, including describing the missile plume videotaped by KCBS news helicopter cameraman Gil Leyvas at around 5:00 pm Pacific Standard Time, during the height of evening rush hour, as the condensation trail from a jet aircraft. Other Pentagon-inspired cover stories are that the missile was actually an amateur rocket or an optical illusion.
Experts agree that this was a ballistic missile being fired off of Los Angeles. Pentagon insists it was a jet aircraft or model rocket.
There are no records of a plane in the area having taken off from Los Angeles International Airport or from other airports in the region. The Navy and Air Force have said that they were not conducting any missile tests from submarines, ships, or Vandenberg Air Force Base. The Navy has also ruled out an accidental firing from one of its own submarines.
Missile experts, including those from Jane's in London, say the plume was definitely from a missile, possibly launched from a submarine. WMR has learned that the missile was likely a JL-2 ICBM, which has a range of 7,000 miles, and was fired in a northwesterly direction over the Pacific and away from U.S. territory from a Jin class submarine. The Jin class can carry up to twelve such missiles.
Navy sources have revealed that the missile may have impacted on Chinese territory and that the National Security Agency (NSA) likely posseses intercepts of Chinese telemtry signals during the missile firing and subsequent testing operations.
Japanese and other Asian intelligence agencies believe that a Chinese Jin-class SSBN submarine conducted missile "show of force" in skies west of Los Angeles.
Asian intelligence sources believe the submarine transited from its base on Hainan through South Pacific waters, where U.S. anti-submarine warfare detection capabilities are not as effective as they are in the northern and mid-Pacific, and then transited north to waters off of Los Angeles. The Pentagon, which has spent billions on ballistic missile defense systems, a pet project of former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, is clearly embarrassed over the Chinese show of strength.
Likely route of Jin-class submarine from Hainan base.
The White House also wants to donwplay the missile story before Presidnet Obama meets with his Chinese counterpart in Seoul and Tokyo. According to Japanese intelligence sources, Beijing has been angry over United States and allied naval exercises in the South China and Yellow Seas, in what China considers its sphere of influence, and the missile firing within the view of people in Southern California was a demonstration that China's navy can also play in waters off the American coast.
For the U.S. Navy, the Chinese show of force is a huge embarassment, especially for the Navy's Pacific Command in Pearl Harbor, where Japan's December 7, 1941 attack on the fleet at Pearl Harbor remains a sore subject.
In 2002, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice reportedly scolded visiting Chinese General Xiong Guankai, the deputy chief of staff for intelligence of the People's Liberation Army, for remarks he allegedly made in 1995 that China would use nuclear weapons on Los Angeles. Xiong denied he made any such comments but the "spin" on the story helped convince Congress to sink billions of additional dollars into ballistic missile defense, sometimes referred to at "Star Wars II."
So we all got to read it for free :-))
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 10, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
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Yep. That's it. The same day Obama is proposing India gets a seat on the UN Security Council, the Chinese, to show their displeasure, launch a ballistic missile off the coast of So. Cal.
That works.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 10, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
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FOS?
Huh?
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 10, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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Flight 808 from Hawaii to PHX? Cool, I'll be on that flight in late January, suckahs!
And it's not a contrail, it's a CHEMtrail! that part is sooooo OBVIOUS!
monday would have been a good day to buy tinfoil stocks, eh?
it does beg the question, though - should I learn Tamil or Mandarin when I'm in South India next year?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 10, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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The chem-trail is worse than any missile.
When it was a missile, it was heading away from us. The chem-trail is coming right toward us.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 10, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
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So it's a win-win situation for Klimmer no matter what it actually was.
very good.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 10, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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I'm scared. I'll be spending the next few nights hiding from the bogeyman.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 10, 2010 - 05:55pm PT
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I don't track the political threads here, but was there already a discussion of how U.S. is backing India for a permanent UN security council seat at the same time that India is deciding which country will sell it a full new fleet of fighter planes?
Kinda relevant to China's moves too.
I started listening to NPR (now PRI) a few months ago. One week they are talking about India's plans to overhaul their military equipment and US competing for that business, and Obama's visit closely tied to that. The very next week I hear about U.S. backing India for a permanent seat on the UN security council, but not mention of the other story or context. It seems like a strong dotted line there and they're not connecting the dots.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 10, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
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Mystery Rocket Launch Reported On Chinese News
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_SFTXJWV-I
At least the Chinese News service is reporting on it and they also show the "live" video footage time and time again. Not single still frames.
Since when does a fuselage of an aircraft give off a very bright point source of "glowing" light like a rocket engine? Doesn't happen.
It seems to me to be a missile launch like it was first reported.
Once again. Show me an aircraft fuselage lighting up as a single "glowing" point source like a rocket engine, and I will believe you.
Good luck on that.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
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Christ on a Bicycle, you conservatives jump at your own shadows. Is there ANTYHING you ain't skeered of?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
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Look at Anders obfuscating... it was a Canadian Missile!
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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here's what a real missile launch looks like just after local sunset from
Vandenburg AFB just north of L.A.
Doesn't look anything like the Nov 8 contrail sighting does it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbQA7cZLVf8
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
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if you keep track of such things, north korea shot a missile over japan a few years back and caused a bigtime flap. what's the big deal? if i throw a frisbee over my next door neighbor's house, should he call the police?
this baby headed west, or it woulda been over l.a. city pronto.
i know america's air defense/air traffic control system is a piece of sh#t. 9/11 proved that beyond a reasonable doubt. but lie about it to the tax-paying public? never!
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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nothing to see here, move along...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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Look at Anders obfuscating... it was a Canadian Missile!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
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Tony,
Agree.
"The Others",
I disagree.
Once again. Show me an aircraft fuselage lighting up as a single "glowing" point source like a rocket engine, and I will believe you.
Look at the Chinese News clip over and over again. No aircraft fuselage lights up like that. It even shows it giving off star-like specular glowing light several times.
Rocket engine. Period.
The question is will Uncle Sam tell the truth that is so plain to see?
They know the truth.
WE ARE WAITING.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
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Whoa, Riley, that's a whole lotta flu.
Hope you feel better soon.
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scuffy b
climber
Three feet higher
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:29pm PT
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Nutjob,
NPR and PRI are two separate entities.
Your radio station broadcasts packages that it acquires from both of
them.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
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Aleister Crowley,
Why do you keep acting like the devil?
Someone should screen capture some stills from the live video footage that clearly shows the bright glowing single point source specular light from the rocket engine.
I'm not home right now or I would.
Someone needs to get on it. The easily obtained visual evidence please!!!
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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Klimmer - it was a airplane contrail. We only see a brief flash off the
fuselage for a second when the geometry is right. A missile would be bright
the whole time of the burn.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
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early childhood experiences can influence adult thinking
Edit: i.e. creating an obsession to bully those who dare think outside the box...
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:58pm PT
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I'm so sorry Klimmer. I just didn't know. I hope you got counseling.
edit:
TC, too bad Klimmer didn't take his brains with him when he left the box...
And really TC, a Chinese missile? If that's thinking outside the box, count me out, and I'm proud to be a "bully".
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 10, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
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Is that Chinese SLBM going in spirals?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 10, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
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Ten days, Riley? Hoh man! maybe if you wore approach shoes you wouldn't get so sick....
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 10, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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that loopy 'chinese slbm' was actually a usa missile. one of my good friends was the senior officer on the sub and his wife was on the usn ship that took the picture. she thought the boys were just showing off! the fault mode is now well understood.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 10, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
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So klimmer, I had a friend of mine that speaks mandarin translate that news broadcast.
What it is saying is that silly american conspiracy theorists are blaming an obvious plane contrail on the honorable peoples army.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 10, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
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And the Canadian dollar is above par again, as compared with the US peso. Well, the disinformation campaign was working well for a while - who'd have thought us innocent Canuckleheads would have a submarine, let alone launch a socialist chemtrail rocket from it?
Although for a while in the summer of 1914, B.C. had its own navy, two submarines.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Nov 10, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
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As viewed from the grassy knoll, the contrail was consistent with what a massive ark would emit on it's way to the dark side of the moon.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 10, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 10, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
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roger that roger, roger. hold that vector, victor. check that clearance, clarence.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Nov 10, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
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Whistler is all about drinking, drugs and sex Crowley, so dont get too excited about the skiing. I don't recall seeing Anders up there or dropping in for a visit, tho my memory may be faulty.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Nov 10, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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It's just a cover up for Piton Ron's new gun.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 10, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
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i think you guys would be having a whole lot less fun around here if you didn't have klimmer to keep the pot boiling
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 10, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
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The Chinese don't have the best track record of submerged SLBM launches. I'm guessing it's pretty unlikely they'd have the requisite absolute level of confidence in the success of a launch to even think about such a stunt. One bad launch test almost sank one of their subs, there would be a certain loss of face if they had to scuttle one or get towed into Long Beach.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 10, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
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hey! let's give credit where credit is due. Ron is the idiot that started this conspiracy thread. Klimmer just had come go into the closet for his tinfoil hat and join late.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 10, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
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every conspiracy needs a Klimmer.
I believe you will be seeing that phrase frequently now.
It may even replace the blue buttplug as a ST icon.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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Ok people.
Let's get busy.
Take a look at the following footage.
One from China. One From Russia Times. And one Spanish.
Full footage of the KCAL original footage.
Mystery Rocket Launch Reported On Chinese News
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_SFTXJWV-I
RT: Mystery missile launch off California coast: Comes from submarine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AMdHBgHtNE
Raw Video: Mysterious Missile Launch Off California Coast
http://espanol.video.yahoo.com/watch/8541061/22944634
Gonna use some meteorology.
Note first of all the Cirrus cloud illuminated from below glowing pink in alpine glow. How high are Cirrus clouds in temperate zones, the mid-latitudes?
High Clouds: (Family A)
16,500 and 40,000 ft (5,000 and 12,000 m) in the temperate regions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud
That rocket is behind and above the pink fully illuminated Cirrus cloud. We can watch it travel behind the cirrus cloud in the video footage. It is not coming toward the city of L.A. but going away from the California coast in a WNW direction.
How is this true?
Because the contrail/vapor trail from the rocket is backlit from the setting sun. Note the edges of the contrail are illuminated and the central column is dark. That means it is backlit and the rocket contrail/vapor trail is getting lite up from beneath and behind. Note how the contrail gets lighter in color as it goes higher. As the rocket is getting higher, it is getting more and more into direct sunlight.
The specular emitted flashes from a single point source of light we see are the rocket engine. At times it gets obscured by the contrail/vapor trail and we lose sight of it because it is going up and away from the CA coast in a WNW direction.
It is a rocket.
If it was a jet contrail and the jet was flying toward the CA coast, the entire contrail would be illuminated evenly just as the cirrus cloud easily is that is below it.
Pentagon: ‘Mystery Missile’ Contrail Was Probably Airplane
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2010/11/10/pentagon-mystery-missile-contrail-was-probably-airplane/
Sure it was. Read the comments. Nobody is buying it.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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It may even replace the blue buttplug as a ST icon.
not a f'ing chance. but maybe we'll get him a used (by aliens on locker) blue butt plug for xmas.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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Chemtrail talk one week.
And now this.
Anyone happen to know if flouride levels went up on Catalina in the last 48 hours?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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Sure it was. Read the comments. Nobody is buying it.
Well that seals it for me, Klimmer. Thanks for the deep insight.
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Condorman
Trad climber
Lake Forest, CA
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
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ddriver - can I ask where you got that article?
My buddy and I saw that in person yesterday from Huntington Beach and I'm not buying the jet contrail story. I knew when I saw it it wasn't Vandenberg because of our orientation. It was definitely over the water, and it came from right off the deck, and wasn't any 200 miles away.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
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Yeah..i woke up with a mystery missile...not sure where that came from?
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
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ok wait a second.
let's just say for a moment I buy that it's a missile. I'll at least consider cuz it does look not totally normal.
How exactly does this get linked to a Chinese Submarine?
Yeah..i woke up with a mystery missile...not sure where that came from?
f*#k yeah... and my girl didn't knott appreciate the landing
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
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BUT, it was still there the next day, looking exactly like a missile launch
I saw it
It was still there, for all to see, just off our coast
'nuff said.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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These planes fly on regular schedules so it will be there EVERY day, although it will look different depending on the lighting and atmospheric conditions.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
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That rocket is behind and above the pink fully illuminated Cirrus cloud. We can watch it travel behind the cirrus cloud in the video footage. It is not coming toward the city of L.A. but going away from the California coast in a WNW direction.
How is this true?
Because the contrail/vapor trail from the rocket is backlit from the setting sun. Note the edges of the contrail are illuminated and the central column is dark. That means it is backlit and the rocket contrail/vapor trail is getting lite up from beneath and behind. Note how the contrail gets lighter in color as it goes higher. As the rocket is getting higher, it is getting more and more into direct sunlight.
The specular emitted flashes from a single point source of light we see are the rocket engine. At times it gets obscured by the contrail/vapor trail and we lose sight of it because it is going up and away from the CA coast in a WNW direction.
It is a rocket.
If it was a jet contrail and the jet was flying toward the CA coast, the entire contrail would be illuminated evenly just as the cirrus cloud easily is that is below it.
Klimmer, I watched the raw video you linked to, but you and I appear to be watching completely different videos. I switched between your interpretation above and the video and they don't match.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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As speculation, I think it could have been a submarine launch of a nuke, by accident, that wasn't activated, and the military doesn't want to admit it
Good to see you know as much about submarine ops as you do about economics... ;-)
If it was a missile, and it came from a US sub, it was not an accident.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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I'm dumber for even asking my above question.
I will now
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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No mystery. It was a Navy missle.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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Nature...at least you got to launch...i had to postpone as carple tunnel was acting up
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
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RJ..... yeah, well me and the girl just moved into together. Nothing like a nuclear celebration, eh?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
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Crikey...i feel like i've been outed by the cragman...ho man!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
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Here's to many more nature...blastoff
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
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that's what she said.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:43pm PT
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Locker!
Was that you!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
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TGT...Locker prefers 2 auxillary rockets at the base before he goes into orbit..
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
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Why am I not surprised that Klimmer would be convinced it was a missile?
Did you even check out the link that GC posted? http://uncinus.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/4/
Seems pretty cut and dry. Reproducible even.
US Air Flight 808 from Hawaii to Phoenix.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 10, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
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Uh. Oh.
09-11-01 = infamous 9-11
11-08-10 = missile launch off CA
Now that is too weird!
Missed it by just one day.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 10, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
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Chinese Leap year. it was spot-on.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 10, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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Life is weird...j-werd
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 10, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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Uh. Oh.
09-11-01 = infamous 9-11
11-08-10 = missile launch off CA
Now that is too weird!
Missed it by just one day.
Just use the almost identical pictures of the contrail used by the same flight the next day on 11-09-10.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 10, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
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Only a missile launch is there the next day
Dr. F,
Since when is any contrail or rocket smoke trail still there the next day?
Has anyone ever witnessed this?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 10, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
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Chinese Leap year. it was spot-on.
Lol.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 10, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
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Since when is any contrail or rocket smoke trail still there the next day?
All the time, or so it often appears. Most of the airplanes leaving these contrails are airliners flying scheduled routes, so you will often see a similar contrail the next day in the same place if the atmospheric conditions are right.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 10, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
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maybe they were make a King Missile music video...
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 10, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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Yep, it would look completely ordinary from a side angle instead of more or less head/tail on. Less interest to video it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2010 - 05:35am PT
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Monolith posted this in the other missile/rocket thread . . .
GOES IR 11-08-10 Animation Gif:
http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1860776&cid=34176978
Zoom in using browser to 400% and hit escape button at anytime to stop animation. You can see the exhaust/vapor plume begin way out in the Pacific immediately west of Pt. Conception.
Seems to me it blooms right out of the ocean, with a short hooked shape, and the exhaust immediately widens quickly. Then the whole exhaust/vapor mass drifts South-Eastward toward the coast.
Note from the bloom of exhaust/vapor trail, it is wide from the SE and narrows to the NW again indicating that it took-off toward the NW after launch from the ocean.
More evidence that it was a missile launch out at sea.
Here it is launching to the NW away from Los Angeles. Also note the specular light emitted from a single point source of light. Many of these specular flashes are visible in the video footage. This isn't reflected light but emitted light from the missile rocket engine:
Full footage of the KCAL original footage.
Mystery Rocket Launch Reported On Chinese News
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_SFTXJWV-I
RT: Mystery missile launch off California coast: Comes from submarine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AMdHBgHtNE
Raw Video: Mysterious Missile Launch Off California Coast
http://espanol.video.yahoo.com/watch/8541061/22944634
Gonna use some meteorology.
Note first of all the Cirrus cloud illuminated from below glowing pink in alpine glow (alpenglow). How high are Cirrus clouds in temperate zones, the mid-latitudes?
High Clouds: (Family A)
16,500 and 40,000 ft (5,000 and 12,000 m) in the temperate regions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud
That rocket is behind and above the pink fully illuminated Cirrus cloud. We can watch it travel behind the cirrus cloud in the video footage. It is not coming toward the city of L.A. but going away from the California coast in a WNW direction.
How is this true?
Because the contrail/vapor trail from the rocket is backlit from the setting sun. Note the edges of the contrail are illuminated and the central column is dark. That means it is backlit and the rocket contrail/vapor trail is getting lite up from beneath and behind. Note how the contrail gets lighter in color as it goes higher. As the rocket is getting higher, it is getting more and more into direct sunlight.
The specular emitted flashes from a single point source of light we see are the rocket engine. At times it gets obscured by the contrail/vapor trail and we lose sight of it because it is going up and away from the CA coast in a WNW direction.
It is a rocket.
If it was a jet contrail and the jet was flying toward the CA coast, the entire contrail would be illuminated evenly just as the cirrus cloud easily is that is below it.
Pentagon: ‘Mystery Missile’ Contrail Was Probably Airplane
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2010/11/10/pentagon-mystery-missile-contrail-was-probably-airplane/
Sure it was. Read the comments. Nobody is buying it. |
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ec
climber
ca
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:11am PT
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Thought you were curious where it came from...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:25am PT
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It doesn't look like most contrails and it does look more like a rocket
to me mainly because of the contrail's density and apparent single source.
Would our military lie to us?
Uh, do some googling on the 'Aurora' project. Untold and never to be told
billions were spent on it. In the early 90's its re-entry sonic booms
were a regular feature of Thursday mornings in the LA basin. It would go
north over the Tehachapi MOA then turn east to descend within the safe
confines of Edwards' restricted airspace and then onto somewhere in Nevada.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:43am PT
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This guys comment ....LOL
"We've all seen commercial airplanes take off from the middle of the ocean at a 70 degree angle at twice the speed of sound.......sure it was an airplane.
Go back to bed America, nothing to see here."
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 11, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
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This giant dead horse must be the victim of one of those mystery missiles
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
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So what have we learned here?
That Millions of eye-witnesses can see something and pretty much know what it is, and Billions of people around the World can see the same evidence remotely and pretty much know what it is, and those of us with cognitive thinking skills already know the truth of the matter.
Yet, our DoD/Pentagon can say it "probably" is a jet contrail and MSM does not call them on it.
They really think we're stupid.
So, is there anyone left in the World that thinks that the US government doesn't sometimes lie?
The Lesson Learned Today:
So folks, we have learned today that Big Government can Lie, and Lie knowingly, even Lie badly, and even when everyone knows that it is Lying, and they can get away with it.
What can we possibly do about it?
Nothing.
Well, Ok, we can talk about it and we should, but are we going to get them to change? Or admit it? Or apologize?
Hardly.
What happened to Truth? Justice? Freedom? Good Works? The Golden Rule?
America, there is a day of reckoning coming from GOD himself, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.
I suggest we return to our values and begin by telling the truth, and ask forgiveness from the World. Maybe then GOD will have mercy on us. America has really lost its way under the leadership of criminals and their corruption, and "we the people" do not hold them to account.
The World laughs at The US.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 11, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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either that or we really are stupid... either way the world laughs at us
...given the level of understanding in the country today, that's my guess: stupid.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 11, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
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We've learned you are good for a laugh, Klimmer.
Hey, maybe you could trot out that 'First they laugh at you.." Gandhi quote again?
Oops, they are laughing at us according to Klimmer. Guess we must be right and righteous.
But just pulling GUD into the subject will have to suffice.
Dang, Ed beat me to it.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 11, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
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This isn't reflected light but emitted light from the missile rocket engine
good that you have spectroscopic eyes Klimmer! That settles everything!
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Nov 11, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
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I'm pretty sure it's an engine burnout on a Qantas A380.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 11, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
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klimmer, i think you are smarter and certainly more diligent and resilient than most of your critics
i think you would be much wiser to leave your religious beliefs out of these discussions, they are working at cross purposes
i think it is a sign of religious maturity to let it go without feeling a need to proselytize
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 11, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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What happened to Truth? Justice? Freedom? Good Works? The Golden Rule?
comfort, klim, comfort. way more important than any of the above. what you fail to realize is that god is part of the comfort program, but unfortunately god is also your superego. no one has the energy to live up to such standards.
of course, all comfort is temporary. if--perhaps, when--it comes back to bite us in the behind, god won't protect us no matter how good we little boys and girls have been. america is comfortable because it's protected, from sea to shining sea, frozen, blameable canadians to the north, handy domestic labor to the south. our comfortable country is our reward for committing wholesale genocide over the course of a century, mostly in the name of jesus, if you could be as ruthlessly honest about that as you seem to be about other things. but now we're the equivalent of a little country back in europe around the year 1700. we're subject to a hidden, ruthless game of power. we instinctively know this, and we also know we don't have a handle on it. it's the reason everyone's all excited about whatever this missile stunt represents.
klimmer, old son, your god lorded it over europe for centuries and centuries. if you look into its history, you'll find out how well he protected all the good little boys and girls. if the sh#t hits the fan, you'll be there telling us we got what we deserved, and of course you'll be right, but it'll hit you too, and god won't protect you any more than the rest of us.
join the illuminati with graniteclimber. you won't be totally safe, but you'll be safer.
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RtM
Boulder climber
DHS
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Nov 11, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
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I took this photo in May of this year in roughly the same location at the same time of day. Looks to be a similar phenomenon, but with the object (Jet) traveling west. Curious why the media didn't make a big deal about this one?? Prolly hyping up something else that day
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 11, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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join the illuminati with graniteclimber. you won't be totally safe, but you'll be safer.
Us Illuminati have it pretty good, but don't sit by your mailbox waiting for an invite.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 11, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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bwaaahahahaaaaa!
Klimmer is a fool.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/
I particularly like the part where the helicopter pilot points out that he tracked the object for 10 minutes. How fast do missiles travel?
This, Klimmer, is why your credibility around here stands at exactly ZERO.
fool.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 11, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
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If it were an ICBM it would be in orbit within about 3 to 5 minutes.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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so it must be one uh dem sloooo missiles.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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the "brilliance" of FauxNews
One thing worth noting - the weather in the SW US has been clear and cold. it went from 89 last week in Tucson to 65 in a 24 hour period. It's f'ing cold up there where dem chemtrails form.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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so it must be one uh dem sloooo missiles.
Resisting the temptation to make a derogatory comment.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
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why hold back?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
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http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/some-network-reports-look-silly-after-it-appears-mystery-missile-really-isnt_b39079
the most bombastic (and likely incorrect) report came from the always entertaining Shepard Smith at Fox News, who delivered a report straight from the next James Bond movie :
"We are told it happened off the coast of Los Angeles and a Pentagon spokesman says the military cannot explain what the picture shows. The Navy says ‘it wasn’t us,’ and NORAD that handles aerospace defense, does not know specifics. The pentagon spokesman claims he has ‘no knowledge whatsoever,’ of what happened. That is what they are telling us. A show of force with the president from overseas? An accidental launch from a submarine? Or a Russian submarine? 5 miles off the coast of Los Angeles? Somebody knows. Whoever launched it has to know. Right now we don’t know. And now a source tells our reporter ‘it is, in fact, a missile. The U.S. government knows where it came from,’ and our source believes it may have come from a submarine, classified.”
Or maybe it was just an airplane.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
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why hold back?
I made a promise. I already broke it once a couple of days ago and don't want to again.
The temptation will pass...
The temptation will pass...
The temptation will pass...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
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bwaaahahahaaaaa!
Klimmer is a fool.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/
I particularly like the part where the helicopter pilot points out that he tracked the object for 10 minutes. How fast do missiles travel?
This, Klimmer, is why your credibility around here stands at exactly ZERO.
fool.
Boy Nature, I like John Stewart just as well as the next guy or gal, but if you think he explained anything then you are seriously wrong. Sarcasm and humor are great, but you can be seriously delusional and wrong just the same.
The helicopter pilot who shot the footage was correct, it is a missile. But it was going NW away from L.A., away from the perspective of the viewer. See my argument above and the footage from GOES IR animation. You can see the exhaust plume. It is going away from L.A. just off of Pt. Conception to the NW. Also it wasn't being shot into NEO. It wasn't attaining speeds of 18,000mph that would put it into NEO. It stayed within Earth's atmosphere. The contrail runs out. My guess is that is ran out of fuel and fell harmlessly into the ocean in International waters.
My guess, whomever did it, did it as a show for effect and just at the right time so that many in SoCal would see it during rush hour and that the exhaust plume would be lite up and visible in the setting sun for a very long time. Perfect time to do it. Had it been shot from international waters toward the US, then that would have been an act of War.
If it was China or some other country and not ours, do you think they want to admit that? No, that is highly embarrassing. However, admitting that would be better than lying and making people (citizens) look like fools. However, our government has a very long history of lying and covering up. They have elevated it to a fine art.
Have we not seen this behavior before? Plenty.
They know what it is, where it was shot from, and very likely who did it, even if it is not ours. We have all kinds of means of surveillance via Satellite, RADAR, etc. that covers the Earth. If it was a jet they could map it and tell us exactly what flight it was and where it ultimately went. As a missile they can do the same exact thing. I'm sure Vandenburg AFB covers the entire region with RADAR, they have to. They can tell us exactly what it is if they want to. They don't want to.
They are playing dumb and playing US citizens and World citizens as suckers. It is CYA time at the DoD/Pentagon.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
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18000 miles per hour is how fast a missile travels. the helicopter pilot tracked it for 10 minutes.
do some math.
you have pie on your face.
It was a f*#king plane.
keep your conspiracies alive. what ever floats your boat. but with crap like this you give everyone less and less reason to even read what you have to say.
and Ron, you long ago proved to be a brainwashed fool so starting this thread doesn't touch your credibility.
and keep in mind Klimmer... i'm 100% behind your thread to bring Shrub and his band of wartime criminals to justice.
but if you think this was a missile you're a fool finding yourself more alone each and every hour.
even FauxF*#kingNews is now dispelling your conspiracy.
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
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Interesting thread, thanks.
DT.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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Nature,
Specifically, tell me where I'm wrong.
Posting this again:
Monolith posted this in the other missile/rocket thread . . .
GOES IR 11-08-10 Animation Gif:
http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1860776&cid=34176978
Zoom in using browser to 400% and hit escape button at anytime to stop animation. You can see the exhaust/vapor plume begin way out in the Pacific immediately west of Pt. Conception.
Seems to me it blooms right out of the ocean, with a short hooked shape, and the exhaust immediately widens quickly. Then the whole exhaust/vapor mass drifts South-Eastward toward the coast.
Note from the bloom of exhaust/vapor trail, it is wide from the SE and narrows to the NW again indicating that it took-off toward the NW after launch from the ocean.
More evidence that it was a missile launch out at sea.
Here it is launching to the NW away from Los Angeles. Also note the specular light emitted from a single point source of light. Many of these specular flashes are visible in the video footage. This isn't reflected light but emitted light from the missile rocket engine:
Full footage of the KCAL original footage.
Mystery Rocket Launch Reported On Chinese News
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_SFTXJWV-I
RT: Mystery missile launch off California coast: Comes from submarine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AMdHBgHtNE
Raw Video: Mysterious Missile Launch Off California Coast
http://espanol.video.yahoo.com/watch/8541061/22944634
Gonna use some meteorology.
Note first of all the Cirrus cloud illuminated from below glowing pink in alpine glow (alpenglow). How high are Cirrus clouds in temperate zones, the mid-latitudes?
High Clouds: (Family A)
16,500 and 40,000 ft (5,000 and 12,000 m) in the temperate regions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud
That rocket is behind and above the pink fully illuminated Cirrus cloud. We can watch it travel behind the cirrus cloud in the video footage. It is not coming toward the city of L.A. but going away from the California coast in a WNW direction.
How is this true?
Because the contrail/vapor trail from the rocket is backlit from the setting sun. Note the edges of the contrail are illuminated and the central column is dark. That means it is backlit and the rocket contrail/vapor trail is getting lite up from beneath and behind. Note how the contrail gets lighter in color as it goes higher. As the rocket is getting higher, it is getting more and more into direct sunlight.
The specular emitted flashes from a single point source of light we see are the rocket engine. At times it gets obscured by the contrail/vapor trail and we lose sight of it because it is going up and away from the CA coast in a WNW direction.
It is a rocket.
If it was a jet contrail and the jet was flying toward the CA coast, the entire contrail would be illuminated evenly just as the cirrus cloud easily is that is below it.
Pentagon: ‘Mystery Missile’ Contrail Was Probably Airplane
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2010/11/10/pentagon-mystery-missile-contrail-was-probably-airplane/
Sure it was. Read the comments. Nobody is buying it.
And no not all missiles go 18,000 mph. Anyhting going 18,000 mph is going fast enough to leave Earth's atmosphere and go into orbit. Learn some physics. If you throw a baseball 18,000 mph it will go into orbit. If you shoot a cannon ball 18,000 mph it will go into orbit. Newton even said this after he discovered his Universal Law of Gravitation.
Do all missiles we fire go into Earth orbit? No.
Not all missiles/rockets go fast.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
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I'm not reading that crap again.
18000 miles. dude watched it for 10 minutes. In that time it traveled 3000 miles.
A fifth grader could do the math and realize he wasn't watching something moving at 18000 miles per hour.
it would have been long gone in a third of that time.
Three news networks look like idiots. So do you and Ron.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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Once again for the reading challenged . . .
Nature,
And no not all missiles go 18,000 mph. Anything going 18,000 mph is going fast enough to leave Earth's atmosphere and go into orbit. Learn some physics. If you throw a baseball 18,000 mph it will go into orbit. If you shoot a cannon ball 18,000 mph it will go into orbit. Newton even said this after he discovered his Universal Law of Gravitation.
Do all missiles we fire go into Earth orbit? No.
Not all missiles/rockets go fast.
Learn something.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Nov 11, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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Mystery Missle....so many inappropriate possibilities, so little time ;-)
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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oh I've had a mystery missile two mornings in a row. Tattoo girl approves.
think what you want, Klimmer. But when FauxNews goes on to snuff the missile story you got problems. Go back to lynching Shrub. You have no audience on this one.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
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On the other hand: I was fascinated by AC's "WWII as a survival game" post.
Maybe this could be a way to teach "history high points" to the ADD generation.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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The space station in low earth orbit goes about 17,500 mph at about 240 miles up. The human rated space shuttle takes about 9.5 minutes to reach that velocity, accelerating at 3.5 Gs. An ICBM can accelerate faster with no humans on board; but doesn't want to reach that peak velocity because then you have to scrub off all that energy during re-entry; and that increases the challenge of ballistic targeting accuracy.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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Klimmer, then we can be sure this slow object wasn't a Chinese intercontinental ballistic missile like your 'expert' Madsen says and you posted.
Madsen is the guy you pay money to for deep insight right Klimmer?
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
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there's no way to know that it wasn't what everyone says it wasn't. therefore we can conclude that by denying it's what we say it wasn't it must not be what we say it is.
got it?
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:33pm PT
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The temperature of a rocket flame is very hot. You can see them from
a long way off. The Nov 8 event showed no such flame so it was not a rocket.
Spy satellite sensors are always watching for these hot rocket flames
because someone might be sending a thermonuclear warhead our way.
Jet airplane exhausts are not hot enough to trigger satellite warning
systems.
The Nov 8 event did not trigger a warning so it was not a rocket.
But here's some red meat for conspiracy minded taco-ettes.
Pegasus® would trigger a launch warning with its 3 stage solid booster.
Patented Air Launch System
In a typical mission Pegasus delivers its payload into
orbit in a little over ten minutes launched from the under belly
of an L-1011 at 40,000ft.
http://www.orbital.com/NewsInfo/Publications/Pegasus_fact.pdf
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dipper
climber
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
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If you folks directed 1/100th the energy you spend on threads such as this towards:
helping someone learn to read
picking up trash around where you live
getting to know your neighbor
reading a book
sheesh, climbing
I dare say the world would be a lot better off.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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CC, we don't have to consider Pegasus. The conspiracy droids insist it came from the ocean.
How can eyewitness reports and instant analysis possibly be wrong?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
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John Moosie posted this last week, an eye-witness to an actual missile launch:
"9:40 minutes Alt 105 miles. Down range 1080 miles 14,000 mph"
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1305620&tn=40
Rockets are fast.
TV-Helicopter-Dude says he tracked his "chem-trail missile" for ten minutes. In ten minutes, a real missile will be at least 100 miles up ( and 1,000 miles down-range ). There is NO atmosphere 100 miles up there. No atmosphere = no contrails. An actual missile would have disappeared in a minute or two, not hang around for ten minutes.
It was an airplane, not a rocket.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
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c'mon chaz.... let's see the kite photos to back up your claim.
we all know you got 'em.
Wait....
it was one of your kites!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
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Klimmer, then we can be sure this slow object wasn't a Chinese intercontinental ballistic missile like your 'expert' Madsen says and you posted.
Madsen is the guy you pay money to for deep insight right Klimmer?
Mono,
You assume too much. I'm not a member of Wayne's website, although I should be. I didn't post the original article just the link to the article. He used to post his articles for free, then he became a paying site. I've known about Wayne Madsen for a long time. He has really good insight as a former Navy and NSA insider, he is dialed in to the intelligence world, but he is not always right.
He usually admits when he blows it, or he has been mislead.
Apparently in the intelligence world there is good info and there is disinfo also.
3 things I'm very confident about. It was a missile, and the DoD/Pentagon knows what it was no matter who shot it off. Now they are spinning the story through the MSM.
Have you ever noticed that the truth usually is revealed first and then the back-tracking and spin begin, Roswell, 9-11, and now this . . .
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
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Haha, you reposted the article and told us how much you learned from Madsen and how brave he was. You must have thought it was insightful.
Are you done with the Chinese submarine ICBM thing?
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 11, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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Yup. Just a jet full of happy vacationers coming back from Hawaii.
But a Pegasus could have been launched from an L-1011 at 40,000ft further out and way over the Earth's curvature so the helicopter video would
seem to 'see' it climbing from the ocean.
Of course we'd see the rocket flame also. No flame no rocket.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
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Apparently in the intelligence world there is good info and there is disinfo also.
"Apparently"?
Are you just waking up to this fact?
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
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MSM is a great supplement.
Mono,
You assume too much.
I'm certain I'm not the only one that finds the irony in that statement.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
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Best I can do is this, Nature:
Flying over the Mexican Border. He flew around me in circles until he satisfied his suspicions, or got bored. Or dizzy.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
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3 things I'm very confident about. It was a missile, and the DoD/Pentagon knows what it was no matter who shot it off. Now they are spinning the story through the MSM.
So the best "they" could come up with at the DoD is, "we don't know"?
That was their cover story?
If "they" wanted to cover up a missile launch, no matter who launched it,
it would have imediately been called a "test" firing, blah blah blah.
No Flame, no rocket.
Klimmer, Watch a couple actual missile/rocket launches and you will see the difference.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
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Haha, you repeated the article and told us how much you learned from Madsen and how brave he was. You must have thought it was insightful.
Are you done with the Chinese submarine ICBM thing?
Nature,
Yes, I still trust him a great deal. Ans yes, he is very brave to do what he does telling truth to power. I still think it is very insightful article, much more than it was a jet contrail spin. He could be right. I do not know.
I can and have already proved it was going NW. For it to be a jet contrail and to keep with that story then it has to be coming from West to East, but the way the exhaust/vapor trail is lite up by the Sun it is back-lite and going up at a WNW to NW direction. Follow my argument from before. Has to be, since the Cirrus cloud below it is fully lit evenly with alpenglow, yet the exhaust/vapor plume is hi-lighted on the edges by the Sun but the central column is dark in shadow. That means it is back-lit and therefore going up and then NW. And it clearly is higher and behind the cirrus cloud.
We also see the bright emitted specular flashes of light from the rocket engine. For you to discount this, then you are not being a good observer when watching the videos from the KCAL helicopter.
The MSM (now) does not want you to think it was going up and then to the NW in our atmosphere, because aircraft do not take off out of the ocean going at about 70 degrees relative to the horizon. But that is what it was doing. I've already proved that and others have said so also who witnessed it. Therefore it couldn't be an jet aircraft.
Also zoom into the GOES IR Animated loop. You can see exactly where it took off in the ocean West of Pt. Conception way out in the Pacific Ocean. You can clearly see the exhaust plume and where it drifts afterwards.
Do we have an airport out there we are unaware of?
Nope.
If it was coming toward the US from the East, then where did it go? It just disappeared as it flew over the US. Wow, this jet even has stealth technology. The contrail just stops and the aircraft just disappears. Amazing but true incidents in aviation!
(Sarcasm)
Edit:
By the way, you all assume this has to be a large rocket or missile. It doesn't have to be and it probably isn't. Big enough to leave a nice exhaust/vapor trail for show and a rather slow ascent. When they first talked about it, the idea that it was an amateur rocket was mentioned. Amateur no, but small and still big enough to leave a display, well yea sounds about right.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
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Really Klimmer, the vid stopped, so how do we know it just disappeared or not?
And you cannot say the ir loop shows where the object started. That's just where the conditions were right for a contrail.
And you should know from your Chemtrail internet 'research' that contrails can start and stop fairly abruptly depending on atmospheric conditions.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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It landed in Phoenix. and a lot of people with tans and bellies full of Ahi got off. I think they said "Aloha" to the gate attendant.
Have you ever noticed that the truth usually is revealed first and then the back-tracking and spin begin, Roswell, 9-11, and now this . . .
No actually... I've noticed the exact opposite. JFK and the lone assassin as a rather perfect case in point. Or do you think that "he" alone did it?
Edit: Jon Stewart nailed it. It's a skycock!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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Have you ever noticed that the truth usually is revealed first and then the back-tracking and spin begin, Roswell, 9-11, and now this . . .
No actually... I've noticed the exact opposite. JFK and the lone assassin as a rather perfect case in point. Or do you think that "he" alone did it?
Roswell, flying saucer first, then weather balloons, then secret parachute test with crash test dummies etc. etc.
9-11, even the MSM on 9-11 was reporting all the secondary blasts and explosions even while they were happening, and also suggesting an explosion happened in the bottom of each of the WTC towers, then the spin and avoidance of all the personal eye-witnesses began. They buried all the reports of the secondary explosions and didn't even allow it into the 9-11 Omission Report.
JFKs assassination was no doubt several gunmen, not a lone gunman. The hit was carried out by TPTB. When it first happened, they were immediately searching for more than one gunman. Then they found Oswald, then the magic bullet on the gurney was found and the spin had begun. Once Oswald was permanently silenced, then it was forever a lone nut who took out JFK.
The World knows that it was a conspiracy. Oswald did not act alone. It has been proven time and time again.
Now this missile. Reported first as a missile, which is clearly the truth but embarrassing, and now they are working hard to spin it as a jet contrail.
Truth does seem to be revealed first, in some small way, when it first happens. Then the cover-up, the spin, the lies begin.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
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they had nice tans too.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
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Glenn -
We also see the bright emitted specular flashes of light
you did likely get this one thing right (although by accident and "emitted" and "specular" do not really fit together this way)!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 12, 2010 - 12:17am PT
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Is it so incredibly difficult to admit uncertainty? Do we have to be obsessed with pretending we know? Does it have to be weird to just gather information and suspend judgment until the information adds up to some inevitable conclusion?
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 12, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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and then invoke Occam's razor
why bother? space ships and aliens are a lot more fun to think about.
this story will die in the next two days and only fools will continue to talk about it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 01:09am PT
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CONFIRMED: US NAVY WAS TESTING MISSILE LAUNCHES OFF THE COAST OF CALIFORNIA
http://www.nga.mil/MSISiteContent/StaticFiles/NAV_PUBS/UNTM/201045/NtM_45-2010.pdf
No. 45
6 NOVEMBER 2010
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
NOTICE TO MARINERS
Published Weekly by the
National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency
Prepared Jointly with the
National Ocean Service and U.S. Coast Guard
See pg. 55:
434/10(18).
EASTERN NORTH PACIFIC.
CALIFORNIA.
MISSILES.
1. INTERMITTENT MISSILE FIRING OPERATIONS 0001Z TO 2359Z
DAILY MONDAY THRU SUNDAY IN THE NAVAL AIR WARFARE CENTER
SEA RANGE. THE MAJORITY OF MISSILE FIRINGS TAKE PLACE
1400Z TO 2359Z AND 0001Z TO 0200Z DAILY MONDAY THRU FRIDAY
IN AREA BOUND BY
34-02N 119-04W, 33-52N 119-06W, 33-29N 118-37W,
33-20N 118-37W, 32-11N 120-16W, 31-54N 121-35W,
35-09N 123-39W, 35-29N 123-00W, 35-57N 121-32W,
34-04N 119-04W.
2. VESSELS MAY BE REQUESTED TO ALTER COURSE WITHIN THE ABOVE
AREA DUE TO FIRING OPERATIONS AND ARE REQUESTED TO CONTACT
PLEAD CONTROL ON 5081.5 MHZ (5080 KHZ) OR 3238.5 KHZ (3237 KHZ)
SECONDARY OR 156.8 MHZ (CH 16) OR 127.55 MHZ BEFORE ENTERING
THE ABOVE BOUNDARIES AND MAINTAIN CONTINUOUS GUARD WHILE
WITHIN THE RANGE.
3. VESSELS INBOUND AND OUTBOUND FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA PORTS
WILL CREATE THE LEAST INTERFERENCE TO FIRING OPERATIONS
DURING THE SPECIFIC PERIODS, AS WELL AS ENHANCE THE VESSEL'S
SAFETY WHEN PASSING THROUGH THE VICINITY OF THE SEA RANGE
IF THEY WILL TRANSIT VIA THE SANTA BARBARA CHANNEL AND WITHIN
NINE MILES OFFSHORE VICINITY OF POINT MUGU OR CROSS THE AREA
SOUTHWEST OF SAN NICOLAS ISLAND BETWEEN SUNSET AND SUNRISE.
4. CANCEL NAVAREA XII 427/10.
(251001Z OCT 2010)
SSSSHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
I have my sources.
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ß Î Ř T Ç H
climber
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:37am PT
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Nice links.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 09:37am PT
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Ed,
Good work on plotting the coordinates on Google Earth.
You beat me to it.
About the dates . . .
The cover says . . .
No. 45
6 NOVEMBER 2010
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
NOTICE TO MARINERS
Published Weekly by the
National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency
Prepared Jointly with the
National Ocean Service and U.S. Coast Guard
Why would they publish launch dates for October when the publication cover clearly says it was published 6 November 2010?
Yes, I'm aware of ZULU time (aka UT or GMT). The 4pm - 6pm would cover it.
Personally, I think they knew all along. A fun PsyOps to do by the US Navy and DoD/Pentagon on the unsuspecting American public.
Just how long before the American public knows we are lying and spinning it on MSM? What can we get away with and for how long? HHHHhhhhhhhmmmmmm let's see . . .
Well, 4 - 5 days. Actually MSM is still spinning it.
THE PENTAGON, Nov. 10, 2010
"Missile Mystery" Laid to Rest
Pentagon "Pretty Confident" the Condensation Trail was Caused by an Aircraft. A Contrail Watcher was Certain it was
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/11/10/eveningnews/main7042324.shtml
Uh. Oh. A contrail watcher was certain it was . . . this isn't going to go good. They are now gonna prove those who watch contrails do not know what they heck they are looking at . . .
Lol.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 12, 2010 - 09:54am PT
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Interesting that nobody is questioning the "ten minutes" time reference by the helicopter pilot. Was he checking his watch during the event, or trying to fly/hover and not wreck the ship? Granted, he could glance at the event on and off, but I doubt that he was gawking at it from one position for very long.
Ten minutes...hit you stop watch and sit watching something for 10 minutes.
Then do it while operating an aircraft in controlled air space.
Too much credibility attached to a random news copter pilot, imo
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 10:00am PT
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GUD one, locker. 8 on a scale of 10, but go for the 14c's.
i'm disappointed the chinese weren't involved. i'm afraid mr. madsen may have suffered a sucker punch from the honey pot.
let's indulge in further speculation. i can't believe they're stupid enough to think they can shoot one of these pups off the coast of los angeles without anyone noticing. i suspect it was a test, not of a submarine missile, which can be done anywhere in the wide pacific by people with fingers able to push buttons, but of los angeles and its reaction. does anyone care? how close to absolute zero are i.q.'s of television reporters covering it? how long can the military get away with denial? will anyone lift a finger to call a congressman? what's the blog buzz? is graniteclimber worthy of his illuminatus assignment?
----
ya see, fellers, if it WUZ an arrow-plane, it WUZZN cleared by ATC. BITD they'd scramble american taxpayer paid-for fighter jets to intercept unauthorized air traffic, especially in as sensitive an airspace as the takeoff zone for LAX. BITD, a news reporter would have been told by the FAA that, yes, that was an arrow-plane we were well aware of, go back to snorting cocaine in venice after work. that all ended with 9/11. nowadays, nobody even tries. better just to poke your fingers up peeplz arzes at LAX, make sure these unauthorized airplanes don't blow up from the inside.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 10:12am PT
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it's a generic warning which covers the approach to the busiest harbor on the west coast...
the US Navy already said they weren't doing anything out there
I am not expert at reading the notices, however, the dates in the report correspond to the week of the issue... I don't have any idea what the date on the cover means... maybe someone who actually does understand that can post
but by all means, klimmer, maintain your staunch view that the end is near...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 10:31am PT
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ed, ya gotta understand that the government has control over the dimension of time which physicists have long lusted after. this is done by making appropriate marks on paper. you can even control when things happen after they happen! amazing, huh?
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hooblie
climber
from where the anecdotes roam
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Nov 12, 2010 - 10:40am PT
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i like they way t-bird thinks. first comes the event, then the story, followed by the meta-story from which effect will emerge. history is what gets recorded quite apart from what happened. either way, at the heart of this story lies
one guy with a toothpick and another messing with a hangnail, neither with a clue
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 10:51am PT
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do tell us more about the hangnail and the toothpick. just two guys? i know, one pilots the submarine, the other launches the missiles.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 12, 2010 - 11:00am PT
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he used the toothpick to push the button.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 11:35am PT
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Yes, Klimmer, that's a missile test zone. No one denies that.
That warning was in every notice I checked, about 6 of them, going back 4 months.
Vessels entering that area during those times need to contact the controlling authority. They may have to alter course if there is a test.
It's a standard warning. Nothing special going on.
And to remind you the pic on the left below is a webcam shot of America West Flight 808, Hawaii to Phoenix, 24 after the 'mystery' event on the right:
And from 12/31 of 2009:
See all the pics here as GC pointed out earlier.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 12, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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So we have proved that the exhaust/vapor plume of the missile launch on 11-8-10 was in the heart of the missile launch area just off the West Coast coast of Pt. Conception, West of Vandenburg AFB in the Pacific Ocean. Indeed the GOES IR animation from 11-8-10 shows that it is right in the heart of the missile test region in the Pacific Ocean.
From before:
Monolith posted this in the other missile/rocket thread . . .
GOES IR 11-08-10 Animation Gif:
http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1860776&cid=34176978
Zoom in using browser to 400% and hit escape button at anytime to stop animation. You can see the exhaust/vapor plume begin way out in the Pacific immediately west of Pt. Conception.
Seems to me it blooms right out of the ocean, with a short hooked shape, and the exhaust immediately widens quickly. Then the whole exhaust/vapor mass drifts South-Eastward toward the coast.
Note from the bloom of exhaust/vapor trail, it is wide from the SE and narrows to the NW again indicating that it took-off toward the NW after launch from the ocean.
More evidence that it was a missile launch out at sea.
Here it is launching to the NW away from Los Angeles. Also note the specular light emitted from a single point source of light. Many of these specular flashes are visible in the video footage. This isn't reflected light but emitted light from the missile rocket engine:
Full footage of the KCAL original footage.
Mystery Rocket Launch Reported On Chinese News
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_SFTXJWV-I
RT: Mystery missile launch off California coast: Comes from submarine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AMdHBgHtNE
Raw Video: Mysterious Missile Launch Off California Coast
http://espanol.video.yahoo.com/watch/8541061/22944634
Raw Video: Mystery Missile Appears over Southern California. Helicopter CAM "no audio"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAZLYn44FeQ&feature=related
Gonna use some meteorology.
Note first of all the Cirrus cloud illuminated from below glowing pink in alpine glow (alpenglow). How high are Cirrus clouds in temperate zones, the mid-latitudes?
High Clouds: (Family A)
16,500 and 40,000 ft (5,000 and 12,000 m) in the temperate regions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud
That rocket is behind and above the pink fully illuminated Cirrus cloud. We can watch it travel behind the cirrus cloud in the video footage. It is not coming toward the city of L.A. but going away from the California coast in a WNW direction.
How is this true?
Because the contrail/vapor trail from the rocket is backlit from the setting sun. Note the edges of the contrail are illuminated and the central column is dark. That means it is backlit and the rocket contrail/vapor trail is getting lite up from beneath and behind. Note how the contrail gets lighter in color as it goes higher. As the rocket is getting higher, it is getting more and more into direct sunlight.
The specular emitted flashes from a single point source of light we see are the rocket engine. At times it gets obscured by the contrail/vapor trail and we lose sight of it because it is going up and away from the CA coast in a WNW direction.
It is a rocket.
If it was a jet contrail and the jet was flying toward the CA coast, the entire contrail would be illuminated evenly just as the cirrus cloud easily is that is below it.
Pentagon: ‘Mystery Missile’ Contrail Was Probably Airplane
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2010/11/10/pentagon-mystery-missile-contrail-was-probably-airplane/
Sure it was. Read the comments. Nobody is buying it.
Now you are gonna get schooled . . .
Now use the following 2 NOAA calculators (correctly) and tell me the local or UTC time for Sunset from Los Angeles, CA, for 11-8-10. And then using this same date and time tell me the Solar Position of the Sun at Sunset relative to L.A. I already know the answer, but you are gonna have to do it yourself. So tell me just how does the setting Sun on 11-8-10 from the WSW (250 degrees clock-wise from the North on 11-8-10) light up a contrail going from East to West from the NW or WNW (315 degrees or 292.5 degrees) relative to LA as though the sun is illuminating it from the NW on 11-8-10? It can't. The exhaust/vapor plume from the rocket is back-lit, problem solved.
That or either we have a secret underwater airport and jets fly out of the ocean and ascend at a 70 degree angle to the horizon, and flicker giving off emitted glowing specular light. Dang it the engine must have caught on fire. Hate it when that happens (sarcasm).
Sunrise/Sunset Calculator:
http://www.srrb.noaa.gov/highlights/sunrise/sunrise.html
Solar Position Calculator:
http://www.srrb.noaa.gov/highlights/sunrise/azel.html
Do some thinking for yourself (using Critical Thinking skills) and prove that I'm wrong.
The event happened right in the middle of the missile test zone at the proper time allowing it and the US Navy just isn't admitting it yet.
You guys are suckers.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 12, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Glenn, if you're so sure of these fantasies of yours, why don't you attach your real name to them?
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 12, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
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It's the aliens. Or the illuminati. Or the NWO. It was all predicted in the Bible codes (gee y'all skipped that part, sheeple).
I'm hiding under the covers tonight.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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Sure it was. Read the comments. Nobody is buying it.
I did read the comments, Klimmer. Quite a few said it was a plane.
Were you lying, or just don't read well?
No one can prove you wrong Klimmer, you will just shuffle the tea leaves and come up with a new 'analysis'.
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nevenneve
Trad climber
Back somewhere flat, dammit
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Nov 12, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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Straight out of the pages of fiction (but misquoted)
It pays to get in bad with your marks, as their emotions cool off they tend to believe what you present them with and begin an easy friendship with it. More importantly you are inside their bubble and they begin to tell you everything they accept as fact.
I really need to stop reading such pulp about adventurers and secrets the government keep.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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Hey, no need to bring in any ad hominem attacks. Ok, I did say suckers. Dang it. My bad.
We have all the empirical evidence we need to know that the exhaust/vapor plume is going to the WNW - NW and it came right from the heart of the missile test zone off the CA coast. And the flashes of emitted specular light do not suggest an aircraft, unless of coarse they now do take off out of the ocean at 70 degrees. Might want to see if we lost that phantom jet though. The engine was on fire. Probably went down and we lost 100s of people. (Sarcasm)
No Aliens, no faith, or religion, no Bible Codes or anything else needed in this particular situation. However, you do need discernment to know when you are being lied to. Does our government sometimes lie? Do I really have to prove that again and again?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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The 'plume' in the IR loop is being driven south/southeast by the prevailing winds Klimmer. Of course that will make everything look like it was going about north/northwest.
You will notice everything else in the area was going southerly as well.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 12, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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if it was a plane, it was a big plane that nobody seemed to know about.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 12, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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they got subs?
can I get one w/o mayo?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
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Can I get one?
kosher ham and cheese
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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Once again, Klimmer has substituted the simple and logical explanation for the absurdly complex.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
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it came right from the heart of the missile test zone off the CA coast
Nope, not even close to the heart of the zone. At most, the two weather loops show the 'plume' starting in the Santa Catalina Island area. Which is not even in the test zone.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
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Monolith,
What is your point?
The exhaust/vapor plume from the rocket forms right in the middle of the missile test zone (see the GOES IR animated loop, the exhaust/vapor plume actually shows up really well, zoom in) and then, yes, drifts to the SE with everything else in the atmosphere with the prevailing winds. OK. So?
The exhaust/vapor trail from the rocket is back-lit hi-lighting the edges of the plume and the central column of the plume is dark as a result. It was going WNW to NW, had to be according to how the sun lit up the plume.
Once again, if the plume was from a jet contrail, then the Sun must have set to the WNW or NW on 11-8-10, to hi-light the contrail from the NW.
Did the Sun on 11-8-10 some how move to the NW and then set and then illuminate the contrail from the NW at 292.5 to 315 degrees as measured clock-wise? How did that happen when the Sunset on 11-8-10 set at 250 degrees as measured clockwise from the North? Maybe it moved to the NW along the horizon, but just for 11-8-10? (Sarcasm)
Please explain how the Sun set to the WNW - NW on 11-8-10 to illuminate the jet contrail from the NW?
I really want to know how that miracle on 11-8-10 occurred. Please explain it to me.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
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well since you ask...
Divine intervention, of course. That's how miracles occur.
the contrail - flight 808. but that ain't no miracle.
sunflower seeds, klimmer? how about an acorn?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
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Look at Ed's map again Klimmer. Not even close to the heart of the zone. Possibly in the southeastern tip. Which is highly unlikely as that area is near heavy shipping going in/out of LA port.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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Monolith,
You really are challenged.
Look at the GOES IR animated images (zoom in 400%) where the exhaust/vapor plume forms right in the middle of the missile test zone to the WNW of Pt. Conception.
It is clearly to the West of Vandenburg AFB.
If you can not see this using the better GOES IR animated loop then you are blind and purposefully not seeing it.
Stop being a dishonest observer.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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Nope, can't see it. The IR loop is tiny, I can see why you would use it. Just like all the fuzzy 911 photos the truther's like.
Do I have to draw you a map on the large loop of the test zone?
here's the big one:
Here's the small one:
You are just reading tea leaves again if you think it starts in the heart of the test zone.
Random atmospheric phenomena is forming in a lot of places, good enough for you to try to link up with the southerly plume.
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nevenneve
Trad climber
Back somewhere flat, dammit
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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I'm lost, just whose misinformation is most irrelevant for what point.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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that's a funny one. Klimmer calling anyone challenged.
you got teeth, klimmer or is eating all them acorns a challenge?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
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Mono,
Once again. You also must be reading challenged. Zoom in 400%!!!!!!!
Monolith,
You really are challenged.
Look at the GOES IR animated images (zoom in 400%) where the exhaust/vapor plume forms right in the middle of the missile test zone to the WNW of Pt. Conception.
It is clearly to the West of Vandenburg AFB.
If you can not see this using the better GOES IR animated loop then you are blind and purposefully not seeing it.
Stop being a dishonest observer.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
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Hilarious Klimmer. Zoom in 400% to see the pixalization.
You post a zoomed in pic Klimmer. I'm sure you will find random stuff to excite your fantasies.
Just like the boulders in the Massive Ark thread you claimed were 'clearly visible' turned out to be nothing. You failed to produce.
Why is your evidence always located somewhere else? You make the claim, you show the evidence.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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A Simple Mind.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
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Mono,
You are clearly a dishonest observer.
I suppose I will have to hold your hand and stop action each image and point out the exhaust/vapor plume so clearly visible at 400%, and no it is not that pixelated. Pretty clear actually.
I'm not at home to do this now. Will have to later.
But you inspire me. If I can prove the point to you then I suppose I can prove it to anyone.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
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Yes, looking forward to it!
Be sure to include the clearly visible plume we can all see in the regular pics and the clearly visible port of LA.
Remember, all the reports say 35 miles west of LA, just north of Santa Catalina Island.
Hardly the 'heart' of the test zone.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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So answer me this Mono . . .
How can the "jet contrail" get illuminated from the WNW (292.5 degrees) to NW (315 degrees) at Sunset when the Sunset on 11-8-10 was at 250 degrees WSW on the horizon?
C'mon you can do it. Explain that miracle.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
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Do I have to waste more of my time Klimmer?
We have a clearly defined task for you to show, but you want to pursue an ambiguous one.
Hop on it.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
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Dr. Klimmer Nash, calling Dr. Nash!
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 12, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
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I'm lost, just whose misinformation is most irrelevant for what point.
this is really right on the money for this thread.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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I'm beginning to agree. Better to not pursue these points. I'm out.
We can't even be sure the weather loops are linked to the event. Just more tea leaves to read.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
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I'm doing a kitchen for a JPL Project Manager so I asked him.
He said Fattrad was right - it was the Israeli navy's ISS Meshuga.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Nov 12, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
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I know it is silly to post on this topic, but feeling silly maybe.
If it was a rocket we would get reports from a very wide range of vantage points. If it came out of the sea from northwest of Catalina Island, then we would get the most reports from Catalina and from Ventura, Santa Barbara, etc. When rockets launch from Vandenburg they are visible over a huge area. Ships all around the area would report it. Airplanes would report it. Flight 808 would have seen it and reported it, since they were in exactly the same place at the same time. Instead we keep reexamining a couple sets of photos and videos all taken from similar vantage point.
In the second photo above, the back of the plume is in sunlight while the front of the plume is in shade, since it is taken after sunset. If it was a rocket, the lower part of the plume would be in shade and the higher part of the plume would be in sunlight as the rocket climbed out of earths shadow into the high sunlight. If it is a jet contrail then the back of the contrail can be in sunlight because it is further west and the sun has not set on that part of the contrail yet. The contrail goes dark as it goes east and passes into earth's shadow.
What I thought was particularly interesting about the story was how it immediately became certain that it was a rocket and that it originated from a specific location. How all responses from officials were so easily twisted from, "We don't know what you are talking about. There were no rocket launches." to "They have no idea who might have launched this rocket or why!"
They did not bother to call anybody in Catalina or Ventura or Santa Barbara. They just made up their minds and ran with the story as it was. Which I guess, is probably a good way to create some excitement on a slow news day.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Nov 12, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
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north koreans in an Iranian sub for sure..
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Nov 12, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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Ya know, there could be a klimmer of truth to that.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
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OK SuperTopians,
Let's put this thing to bed.
I need from those who are in L.A. to plot on a map where the helicopter was when the following picture was taken. I'm somewhat familiar with L.A. but then those of you who live there should be able to plot just about exactly where the helicopter was and looking at the distant landmass in the background these 2 points denote a line and we can draw this line far out to sea.
I want to then plot this line on Google Earth.
I've tried to find the exact lat. and long. for the helicopter when he filmed and shot this image, but to no avail.
Need help!!!!!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 12, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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Let's put this thing to bed. I couldn't agree more.
Klimmer = Glenn Simpson.
If I post that a bunch of times, perhaps anyone googling Glenn's name will come up with this thread.
Man up, have the courage of your (crackpot) convictions, put your name with your fantasies. OK?
(Same goes for the anonymous trolls on the political threads, like suap.)
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 12, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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this thing was put to bed yesterday. it's not even front page news any longer.
Calling Doctor Nash?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
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just a point of logic. contrails are up in the sky. they don't originate in the ocean.
so if it's an airplane with a contrail heading east, the contrail would be up in the sky, as perhaps you could argue that it was, but then it would have proceeded overhead over los angeles, which it didn't.
so if it's going west, it would disappear into the far sky, which it did, but then it would've left a contrail overhead in los angeles, not coming out of the ocean.
hey, i hate airplanes and never wanted to fly. tell me why i'm wrong.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
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Because Tony, the earth is round.
Anything coming from a distance can appear to be rising from the surface if it leaves a contrail.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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Tony,
Don't you know LA? Can you put a spot on a map for the helicopter taking the above footage?
Please someone do this.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 12, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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And contrails can stop abruptly due to changes in atmospheric conditions.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 12, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
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Klimmer:
Think you should use Bing instead of Google Earth, they have had a couple of technical errors recently where countries are or not are, one today with Costa Rica and Nicaragua also Africa a few years back. Almost started a war.
Maybe google shot something and they are not telling us.
Take some sleeping pills,valium,vicodin,and bottle of whiskey, Works for me. Called "Tiger Wood's cocktail"
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 06:41pm PT
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Ok, just talked to a colleague in the science department who is from L.A. and he thinks the landmass is Palos Verdes and the helicopter is looking WNW (edit: actually WSW at 240 degrees) across Long Beach Harbor. Then we looked at Google Earth from an oblique perspective near the surface of the Harbor and it looks pretty much the same.
Anyone want to disagree with this assessment?
I will get it set-up and add the line going from the approximate location of the helicopter, to the end of Palos Verdes and straight toward the exhaust/vapor plume of the rocket high in the atmosphere and we will see where exactly it points.
My prediction:
It will show that there is no way that the Sun that set at 250 degrees on 11-8-10 could illuminate a contrail of a Jet from the WNW at 292.5 degrees to NW at 315 degrees.
The phenomenon witnessed is the exhaust/vapor plume of a launched rocket coming right smack out of the middle of the missile launch region West of Pt. Conception and the exhaust is back-lit by the setting Sun.
Edit:
Ok, wish I did this exercise earlier. Learned some new stuff.
From the helicopter's perspective to the tip of Palos Verdes, to the exhaust/vapor plume it is about 240 degrees WSW clockwise as measured from the North.
This is further South for the origin of the exhaust/vapor plume than I thought. Wish I knew the layout of L.A/Long Beach Harbor better from the get go. But it will still put it within the missile test zone easily, just more south than I imagined.
Still, we have the same issue, it is back-lit from the setting Sun at 250 degrees. Has to be. Since the exhaust/vapor plume is behind and then easily reaches above the Cirrus alpenglow lit up cloud that is in the foreground, and that Cirrus cloud is fully illuminated from below by the setting Sun.
So now the missile is in a new location, but still well within the missile test zone, further South than I thought, but still going WNW away from the coast and the exhaust/vapor plume is still back-lit by the setting Sun.
That, or jets now take-off out of the ocean heading WNW with a burning engine and leaving exhaust/vapor plumes.
(Sarcasm)
That, or the Sun has changed location only on 11-8-10, and the sunset ocurred much further WNW to NW of 250 degrees. But it did that just on Monday 11-8-10. Everything is back to normal now, and the Sun today continues to set near 250 degrees or slightly less from L.A.'s perspective.
(Sarcasm)
I will do a graphic over the weekend and post it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
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not really jibing with the pictures we're seeing, fellas. contrails don't stop abruptly any more. they go on and on and on, especially mofos kickin' out stuff like that one. we're either looking at a far-back-from-way-west-in-the-ocean contrail comin' at ya--but then the news morons would'a seen it fly over their heads and realized it was just an airplane--or something coming out of the ocean and heading west, which jibes with the "klimmer of truth".
can't have it both ways. contrail out of the west would have continued eastward overhead. contrail from the east wouldn't be coming up out of the ocean. gotta be coming up out of the ocean, going west.
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 12, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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OK, Klimmer,
To what purpose was that missle blasted?
g
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
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Yes, Tony, contrails can start and stop abruptly. They can also disappear from our view due to distance, angle and changing lighting conditions, you know like around sunset.
You seem to be pushing the ballistic missile disappearing into space theory? It was going too damn slow for that. Even Klimmer has given up on that one.
Klimmer, sure, you will toss the tea leaves, burrow deep into noise and uncertainty, exploit ambiguity of terms, till you get the answer you desire.
Without knowing exactly where the helicopter was the moment that shot was taken, and the time, it's a fools game to locate where the object was, and what lighting conditions were present. Which makes you highly qualified for this task.
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richross
Trad climber
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Nov 12, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
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See my edit above. Learned something new. Will do graphic over weekend.
Edit:
Mono,
That is some 100% USDA Bull Dung you are shovelling there. We can get very close to the actual perspective and have. We know what time this all went down on 11-8-10.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
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Hardly, lets see how exact you can place the helicopter, and time, even assuming it was Palos Verdes.
And without a second perspective, you can only say it was on a given line, a line that has considerable error.
You know, as in triangulation, since you are trying to place it off Vandenburg somewhere.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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Mono,
You are still just shovelling Bull Dung.
The image/video was shot after Sunset. The Cirrus cloud in the foreground is completely illuminated with alpenglow. The missile exhaust/vapor plume is behind and went even higher than the Cirrus Cloud in the foreground.
If it was coming West to East toward the Coast and higher than the Cirrus cloud, then it would be fully illuminated from below just as the Cirrus Cloud is.
But it isn't. It is back-lit and going WNW away from the continental land mass having been just lauched from the missile test region at the times designated for it to do so.
By the way, found another source and discussion about this that shows the NOTAMS for Mariners is repeatable, they use the same one over and over, they just go on and on. So yes, Monday's missile launch was within the scheduled launch window.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
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Haha, you've already thrown in so many assumptions. This will be fun.
Yes, the warning is in every weekly notice to mariners, at least the 6 I saw. That's because it is a permanent test area.
I don't deny that it is in their wide time slot. What's your point? Do they launch every day?
Stop claiming you have the evidence and just show us.
Have a good weeend!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 12, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
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I thought this was settled.
Some science guy on TV said the video does not show an accelerating unit.
A missile accelerates.
Therefore, it is not a missile.
Why does it always have to presumed to be some big deal when it is not?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 12, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
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Klimmer....that is long beach harbor...
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 12, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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Glenn - you called a "colleague in the science department who is from L.A"?
EDIT: Ah I get it. When I first read that I incorrectly thought that Glenn had called some authority in LA in the "science department". It reminded me of the old NPR "Ask Mr. Science" where Mr. Science proclaimed at the end of the show "and I have a Master's Degree..... in Science!". But, my bad here. Poor reading comprehension on my part.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 11:28pm PT
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hey Klimmer, try this out too!
for a round earth (can we all agree that the earth is a globe? or do we have some flat-earth-conspiracy buffs participating?)
the horizon's distance in miles is the square root of your altitude in feet (this is a homework problem for you numerate participants, Tony, don't feel bad if you can't derive it, take it from me, it's true).
commercial jets fly around 40,000' which would mean you can seem them about 200 miles off... then they disappear below the horizon (so they look like they are coming out of the ocean, or going into the ocean)....
the helicopter's altitude? probably not much more than let's say 2500 feet? which has a horizon of about 50 miles.. we get to add that to the aircraft... so from the helicopter, in the right light, you might see the aircraft contrail out 250 miles.... at 600 miles per hour this takes about 25 minutes... with a 100 mph jet stream, the end of the contrail would displace about 41 miles, or 0.164 radians, which is about 10ş and curve back to the current trajectory...
this time of year there are strong winds coming from the WSW (the "Pineapple Express") and an aircraft laying a contrail down coming from the West will have something that looks like a curving path out of the ocean...
...with clear meteorological conditions, and backlighting, from a sun set... sounds plausible to me...
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 13, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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The atmosphere also causes severe refraction distortions when you observe something within less than about 10 degrees above the horizon. That is why you can see the disk of the sun later than the calculated time of sunset. Celestial navigation requires taking this into account.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 13, 2010 - 12:43am PT
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for Klimmer to claim that anyone one is tossing bull dung is laughable.
oh the irony....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 13, 2010 - 03:36am PT
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Ok, just talked to a colleague in the science department who is from L.A. and he thinks the landmass is Palos Verdes and the helicopter is looking WNW (edit: actually WSW at 240 degrees) across Long Beach Harbor. Then we looked at Google Earth from an oblique perspective near the surface of the Harbor and it looks pretty much the same.
Anyone want to disagree with this assessment?
MB asked . . .
Glenn - you called "colleague in the science department who is from L.A"?
No. I walked down the hall and asked him personally. He is from L.A., as in he grew up there. C'mon Dr. Bolte, geeeeeeeeeeees. Can I get a break?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 13, 2010 - 07:08pm PT
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Ok, just as I suspected. The missile exhaust/vapor plume is back-lit by the setting Sun.
I will place a line on Ed's wonderful Google Earth graphic showing the missile test zone or region when I have a chance later, but it does indeed fall within the Southern portion of the missile test region. I wanted to first prove that the exhaust/vapor plume is going up at a steep angle to the W - WNW, and with stereo vision I have.
The bottom of the exhaust/vapor plume is closer to the observer, and the top of the plume is further away to the West.
Unless of course, jets now launch out of the Pacific Ocean with a flaming engine and then spirals clock-wise during the ascent. If it is a jet, then we might want to go looking for it as it likely fell into the Pacific Ocean with all onbaord. (Sarcasm)
Ladies and Gentleman it is a slow ascending and clock-wise spiraling missile.
All images taken from this copy of the original video footage shot by KCAL:
Raw Video: Mystery Missile Appears over Southern California. Helicopter CAM "no audio"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAZLYn44FeQ&feature=related
'video shot by a KCBS/KCAL Cameraman Gil Leyvas News helicopter in Los Angeles that shows an object shooting across the sky and leaving a large contrail, or vapor trail, over the Pacific Ocean. Pentagon Can't Explain 'Missile' Off California Coast.
"Whatever it was, it was spinning up into the sky kind of like a spiral," and was easy to distinguish from condensation trails from jets, he said. "It was quite a sight to see. It was spectacular" said the cameraman.'
Stereogram man to the rescue!!!!!!!
Ladies and Gentleman please put your stereoscopes on . . .
May I sugggest Pokescope if you do not have a pair:
http://www.pokescope.com/
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 13, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
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Klimmer previously claimed:
So we have proved that the exhaust/vapor plume of the missile launch on 11-8-10 was in the heart of the missile launch area just off the West Coast coast of Pt. Conception, West of Vandenburg AFB in the Pacific Ocean
So epic fail Klimmer, even you know now it did not come from the 'heart' of the test zone. You debunked yourself!
There's no doubt that the flight could have crossed the southern most part of the permanent zone.
What's your freakin point? If a flight crosses the zone that may be impacted by a test, the controllers give them a new course.
Just like mariners who enter the zone are instructed to call the controlling authority. No big deal.
BTW, that's not Palos Verdes, unless they call San Pedro, Palos Verdes. The real Palos Verdes area is about 7 miles up the coast.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 13, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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Where did it come down?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 13, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
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Klimmer's fantasies about the "missile" seem almost Freudian.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 13, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
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seems more likely to be a jet to my mind...
the dispersion on the part low on the horizon would take time to happen, which is what you have if its a jet, a missile gets up and out really fast...
the "test range" takes up most of the air approaches to LAX and the LA area, as well as the sea lanes... almost anything is going through that box on the way in...
you guys are having some truly demented fantasies if you think that's a missile...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 13, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
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Klimmer previously claimed:
So we have proved that the exhaust/vapor plume of the missile launch on 11-8-10 was in the heart of the missile launch area just off the West Coast coast of Pt. Conception, West of Vandenburg AFB in the Pacific Ocean
So epic fail Klimmer, even you know now it did not come from the 'heart' of the test zone. You debunked yourself!
There's no doubt that the flight could have crossed the southern most part of the permanent zone.
What's your freakin point? If a flight crosses the zone that may be impacted by a test, the controllers give them a new course.
Just like mariners who enter the zone are instructed to call the controlling authority. No big deal.
BTW, that's not Palos Verdes, unless they call San Pedro, Palos Verdes. The real Palos Verdes area is about 7 miles up the coast.
Mono,
It is a matter of scale. Even those who live in L.A. know the Peninsula as Palos Verdes, the entire Peninsula. Yes, San Pedro is at the North End of the Long Beach Harbor.
See one of the many differences between me and you is that I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. I admitted that Friday.
However, it was also based on Bull Dung that you posted. Recall the 2 different GOES animations you first posted? The one has a polygon clearly drawn around the Cirrus cloud formations moving to the SE.
I assumed they were correct. They were not. But let's be clear. You were the first one to post that misinformation and I fell for it without checking it first.
You are very dishonest.
I have proven that the exhaust/vapor plume is going from the surface of the ocean upward to the W - WNW. I have the stereograms to prove it and I provided them to you. I can even prove it came from the direction of the Missile Test Zone.
The base of the plume is closer to you the viewer. The top of the plume is further away to the W - WNW and the entire exhaust plume is back-lit by the setting Sun.
You'll have to view it in 3D to know, but I provided it for you. There is no doubt it was a missile.
Now let's see if you can man-up and admit you are wrong.
Probably a snowball's chance in Hades waiting for that to happen . . .
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 13, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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Ed,
You better get a stereoscope and start viewing.
To everyone,
You all assume missiles have to be fast. They do not.
How many of you have shot a Dragon Gun or a Tow Missile?
I have. US Army 11Bravo Infantry, Dragon Gun Expert qualified.
You shoot that shoulder mounted "missile" where ever you want it to go, tracking a jeep, tank, armored personnel carrier whatever and it goes and follows it as it flies down range. It is wire guided. You can watch it go down range. Fast but not incredibly so. You can see it tracking and continually making coarse corrections when tracking the target. And it leaves an exhaust trail.
Tow missiles are just over-sized Dragon Guns mounted on a stand. Same thing really.
You have everything from Dragon Gun Missiles to ICBMs, and everything in between. You can make missiles that go slow. No problem.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m47-dragon.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-71_TOW
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Nov 13, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
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Missle....Going into a tunnel................
did someone say Freudian?
Pretty sure that was WeldMeHarder tuning up for his K duece run.
Prob some high-tech gear that welds his freeze dried food in 1/2 the normal time.
If you asked nice Klimmer you could probably go and be one of his sub-men. Forget this conspiracy bull and get back into the great outdoors!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 13, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
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Hope is now just a glimmer
When that trail in the sky starts to shimmer
"Twas a rocket, I said,
We can put this to bed"
So says the all knowing Klimmer.
Cragman,
You should know that no one is all knowing but GOD.
And why do you pick on others? Not very Christ like. And to do so to another Brother in Christ.
Shame.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 13, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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Klimmer is that you?
look out for those "Dragon" missiles now.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 13, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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I think it's funny that eye witnesses thought it was a missile, as well as those news folks flying in the helicopter.
"Boy, those folks in the news helicopter sure must be dumb as a box of bait, to not know a plane when they see one."
How many planes do you think they see in the sky in LA, you know, flying every night in their news helicopter?
"Boy, those eye witnesses in LA, never having seen a plane before, those ignorant dumb folk in LA."
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/11/video-catches-mystery-missile-launch-off-la-coast.html
Or to put it in another way, do you think you'd mistake a plane for a missile?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 13, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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Myself, I believe it was a missile (I don't doubt the eye-witness crew in the news helicopter who believe they saw something other than a plane), and hence a cover-up of some sort. Does that point to a conspiracy? I guess it could. But in the least, it points to a cover-up.
BTW, missile shots out of the water near LA, that's not "normal" DOD operations.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Nov 13, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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Most likely was. The real question is who fired it?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 13, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
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More than likely we did and within the missile test zone.
The DoD just isn't admitting it yet. Perhaps they never will.
Truth is just an inconvenient burden, just doesn't seem to be necessary anymore.
Rome is Burning.
Whoever did it, they (as in the DoD) know, and that is for sure.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 13, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
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I used to live in LA. One evening, probably late 60's early 70's, we saw this amazing missile going up, probably over the ocean (we were near Westwood, so it was hard to say how far away it was). It fully exploded and left a huge debris cloud in the sky. It hung up there for quite some time, then it got dark.
We all wondered what it was and looked in the news to see what they'd say. It was never mentioned ... No news helicopters flying around to film it, I guess.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 13, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
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After looking at how far south objective boy Klimmer put Santa Catalina island I thought I'd take a look.
Here's the opening shot of the vid, with the copter over Long Beach area.
So I tilted the harbor to get a similar look and start a line.
Now the overview of the harbor.
Lookee here Klim, it crosses the northernmost part of Santa Catalina Island and barely enters the huge permanent test zone.
Oh my god Klim, AFR673 from Tahiti to LAX is approaching the test zone. Should we alert NORAD?
Never mind, planes fly in the zone all the time, even overflying Vandenberg.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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"Dude, if you are looking for truth out of humans..............you are in for a long wait."
Humans always tell the truth that's why they're called human beings.
It's men who are in animalistic consciousness that think they are humans that lie.
True real human beings are very very rare in this age .....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:05am PT
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Mono,
You have a real issue with the truth and proper observation. Your line is drawn wildly wrong. Try measuring using a 360 degree protractor. I have one and used it to make all my measurements.
The view from the helicopter, across the Long Beach Harbor, across the South end tip of Palos Verdes Peninsula, and North of Catalina Island, and straight to the missile exhaust/vapor plume is 240 degrees.
The line you have drawn is not even close to that.
Using Ed's very nice graphic and work:
Edit:
I just measured your line and you drew it at 230 degrees. Very dishonest. Facts are a bummer.
Try lining it up again:
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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Haha, I new you would try to exploit the noise. You really can't tell where to cross the piers.
Planes fly deep in the zone all the time. What's your freekin point?
BTW, San Pedro is not considered one of the communities of Palos Verdes Penninsula, certainly not according to Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palos_Verdes
Sure be sloppy, that's cool too.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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hey Klimmer, your line is even closer to the aircraft in Mono's plot... so it seems even more likely to be that aircraft...
...and you proved it yourself!
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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Yea, I could not get the tilted view just right. It's so close, only Klimmer would care. And we really don't know where to cross the piers and I was very generous to Klim crossing San Pedro Peninsula.
I tried to find a night view to match up the lights on the piers, but could not.
And Klimmer has yet to show us his tilted view and close ups. Why is that Klimmer?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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monolith -- "What's your freekin point?"
klimmers point is he believes it's most likely a missile.
Your point is it's most likely a plane.
Yet neither of you have any real truth at hand other than theory and speculations.
Thus so simple to see you are arguing.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:20am PT
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Your so cute Werner.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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Ed,
Try using a stereoscope and get back to me.
I provided the stereograms, no tricks, just real observation.
No matter how hard you want that exhaust/vapor plume to be coming toward the coast from the SW to NE, it isn't.
It is clearly going away from the coast at a W - WNW direction at a very steep angle and back-lit from the Sun. Sorry Ed. Facts are sometimes hard to deal with. But there you go.
Also you will note the clock-wise spinning exhaust/vapor plume. I even gave you an up close stereogram to view it in 3D. Note the emitted specular light from the engine that is facing toward the observer.
All images taken from this copy of the original video footage shot by KCAL:
Raw Video: Mystery Missile Appears over Southern California. Helicopter CAM "no audio"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAZLYn44FeQ&feature=related
'video shot by a KCBS/KCAL Cameraman Gil Leyvas News helicopter in Los Angeles that shows an object shooting across the sky and leaving a large contrail, or vapor trail, over the Pacific Ocean. Pentagon Can't Explain 'Missile' Off California Coast.
"Whatever it was, it was spinning up into the sky kind of like a spiral," and was easy to distinguish from condensation trails from jets, he said. "It was quite a sight to see. It was spectacular" said the cameraman.'
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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Klim, I like how your pics show the lower portion of the contrail in the sun, and the upper shaded. Perfect for an easterly path as the aircraft is in the lower light area as the sun goes down, but of course that is just tea leaf tossing as well.
BTW, you don't need stereo view to see the circular patterns.
People will think it's spinning because of the circular nature of the contrail. But the vids sure don't show the actual object spinning.
And I've proven planes fly deep in the zone. Anybody repeat my experiment by loading up a the Flightwise tracking kml file.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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dude , If you are looking for truth out of humans...you are in for a long wait....stick with the sheep and chickens...they never talk back or lie like a human might...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:43am PT
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Klim, I like how your pics show the lower portion of the contrail in the sun, and the upper shaded. Perfect for an easterly path as the aircraft is in the post sunset area.
BTW, you don't need stereo view to see the circular patterns.
Mono,
You just hung yourself. You are right. You do not need a stereoscope to clearly see the clock-wise spinning exhaust/vapor plume corkscrewing its way up into the atmosphere.
What you don't realize, because you are not using a stereoscope to view it, are the dark portions are toward the observer (you), and the sunlight portions are behind because it is getting back-lit by the setting Sun.
The missile is clearly going upward and away from the coast in a W - WNW direction.
Bingo.
Try getting a stereoscope. They are inexpensive.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:45am PT
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Like I said, you don't need stereo view to see the circular nature. But, of course, you can't see the actual object rotating or the immediate area after the object.
Klim, are we done with this stupid test zone stuff? I told you long ago it was silly. Would not have mattered where it was in the zone.
As Ed said, you debunked yourself and haven't really shown your work coming up with 240 degrees. I showed the tilted view and overview of the harbor, now show us yours.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:03am PT
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Like I said, you don't need stereo view to see the circular nature. But, of course, you can't see the actual object rotating or the immediate area after the object.
Klim, are we done with this stupid test zone stuff? I told you long ago it was silly.
As Ed said, you debunked yourself and haven't really shown your work.
You do need a stereoscope to see depth and direction to know exactly how the plume is being illuminated by the Sun. That is why we have 2 eyes to see in stereo. Depth of field is vital for direction orientation. To ignore this, then you again are being dishonest.
Apparently, you spend time doing stupid stuff. This isn't stupid to me or to many people. The point is the people know what they saw, and TPTB are denying it. It really is pretty simple to figure out, but people like you throw out continual disinfo.
You know a great deal about me, what are you all about? What do you do? I really have to wonder.
Apparently, you think knowing the truth about things is silly.
I completely disagree.
I showed my work. Once again you are being dishonest. The image I marked up in green gives all the data. You can check it yourself. You drew the line from the South tip of Palos Verdes Peninsula, to the north tip of Catalina Island. That is clearly dishonest.
You pretty much are just dishonest all around.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:06am PT
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so anyway.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:08am PT
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Wow, 328 and counting and still just the two protagonists?
Don't know if this has been pointed out but if you look closely at any
contrail caused by a jet engine you're gonna see a spiral as the engine is
spiraling after all. A rocket engine basically has no moving parts so its
contrail shouldn't have any reason to spin other than coriolis effect. Jess sayin'....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:55am PT
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You know you are right.
Missiles don't ever spiral. My bad.
(Sarcasm)
Yea, that KCAL photographer on the Hleicopter didn't really know what he saw when he witnessed the spiralling effect of the missile launch . . .
Nope, he didn't know what he was talking about. What a bad, bad observer.
All images taken from this copy of the original video footage shot by KCAL:
Raw Video: Mystery Missile Appears over Southern California. Helicopter CAM "no audio"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAZLYn44FeQ&feature=related
'video shot by a KCBS/KCAL Cameraman Gil Leyvas News helicopter in Los Angeles that shows an object shooting across the sky and leaving a large contrail, or vapor trail, over the Pacific Ocean. Pentagon Can't Explain 'Missile' Off California Coast.
"Whatever it was, it was spinning up into the sky kind of like a spiral," and was easy to distinguish from condensation trails from jets, he said. "It was quite a sight to see. It was spectacular" said the cameraman.'
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 14, 2010 - 02:02am PT
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rocket contrails tend to squirm all over the place within a few minutes because of high speed winds going different directions at different altitudes.
a corkscrew rocket trail can also be caused by variations in thrust vector engine control yawing as the control system compensates for changes in wind direction and atmospheric density and dynamic instabilities in the rocket body. One of the early SpaceX Falcon 1 flights did this to such a degree that the liquid fuel in the tanks sloshed to the outside of the tank and starved the engine before attaining orbit, even though there was still adequate fuel remaining in the tank.
Edit: I can tell you interesting stories about some of the pictures just above.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 02:48am PT
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Klim,
I wasn't talking about the missile's track, read more carefully.
I wasn't thinking about the big boys that have multiple exhausts that
could cause the contrail to develope a spiral pattern. If it came outta
the water per your theory then most likely it would have been a solid fuel
single exhaust and therefore not likely to cause a spiral pattern within the contrail itself.
Besides, didn't you remember that I told you a few pages back my JPL friend
was backing you up at least as far as Fattrad's assertion that it was the
IDF's sub ISS Meshuga?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 14, 2010 - 03:02am PT
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solid rockets are steered and stabilized by thrust vector control i.e. with hydraulic rams that move the rocket nozzle around. the loopy trident shot from the sub was caused by a stuck thrust vector control (short version of story). a solid rocket can definitely leave a spiral track.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 14, 2010 - 03:02am PT
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This one is typical of a rocket launch from Vanguard 20 minutes after a launch. The contrail starts straight as a ruler but gets blown around by the winds going different ways at different heights.
If it had been an ICBM launch, the contrail would have looked like this 20 minutes later. Also, the contrail would continue to be illuminated for a while long after the sun stopped illuminating the clouds and everything else was dark.
But hypothetically Klimmer could be right. If someone launched a large cruise missile (the size of a jet airliner) from Honolulu to Phoenix along the path of U.S. Airways Flight 808, it would have left a contrail that looked like the one in the video.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 03:12am PT
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Klimmer - you are convinced...
but you should check out the aviation chart approaches to LAX (not that it would matter to you), you will see that the flights are pretty consistently brought in from the SW along the "Control Area Pacific Low" over Santa Catalina I. then routed to where ever they are going...
The sterograms aren't going to help much since you are very far from the object, and the parallax isn't so great on the images... you should be able to work that out yourself.
The optical distortion of the contrail, the wind direction, the location of the path of the aircraft, the uncommon view out over the ocean, the sunset,... I don't see this as any reason to believe in a missile.
The Navy said "not ours." They have no reason to deny it... so what if they launched a missile? the entire chart of that area both nautical and aviation, have many warnings concern the fact that these are "National Defense Operating Areas"
you are a nut case when it comes to suspecting conspiracies, go for it dude...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 10:36am PT
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bottom line in this flap is that the public is being kept in the dark. the thickheads on here trying to explain it away forget that the government owes us an explanation, and it failed--or refused--to give one. if it were just an airplane and normal circumstances, the explanation would've been a piece of cake.
this thing looked like a missile enough to make the A-wire. nobody wants to admit what it was, whatever it was. that in itself is the greatest proof that it's worthy of suspicion.
enjoy the view in the dark, because it ain't gonna get lighter if no one demands it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 10:47am PT
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The stereograms aren't going to help much since you are very far from the object, and the parallax isn't so great on the images... you should be able to work that out yourself.
Ed,
You are very wrong. The parallax is very sufficient. I used the video from the cameraman in the helicopter that was moving as he shot the video. The parallax is more than sufficient to see in 3D and to see the direction of the exhaust plume.
Yes, you can easily tell that the base of the exhaust/vapor plume is closer to you the observer, and the top of the plume further away. The whole exhaust/vapor plume is steeply leaning to the W - WNW and is back-lit by the settting Sun.
Why don't you look at it in stereo and stop speculating.
Or is it now common for scientists to just wave their hand and dismiss evidence without investigation?
C'mon Ed.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 10:55am PT
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Alex Jones interviews Wayne Madsen and talks about the Missile off the coast of CA. Very interesting . . . this situation is not over by any means.
The Chinese angle does have merit. Very worth the listen.
I would say this is very, very important to know what happened off of CA. To call this silly or to pooh-pooh this then you must also be saying Officers in the DoD caring about this is silly. And guess what? They care.
http://www.infowars.com/infowars.asx
http://www.infowars.com/
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 11:07am PT
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Richross,
Why don't you view the full video from KCAL that I posted. It is a Chinook Helicopter moving across the view.
C'mon.
Raw Video: Mystery Missile Appears over Southern California. Helicopter CAM "no audio"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAZLYn44FeQ&feature=related
'video shot by a KCBS/KCAL Cameraman Gil Leyvas News helicopter in Los Angeles that shows an object shooting across the sky and leaving a large contrail, or vapor trail, over the Pacific Ocean. Pentagon Can't Explain 'Missile' Off California Coast.
"Whatever it was, it was spinning up into the sky kind of like a spiral," and was easy to distinguish from condensation trails from jets, he said. "It was quite a sight to see. It was spectacular" said the cameraman.'
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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Dude, show your work on the "240" degree line as to it's path in the harbor.
"I lined it up again" doesn't count.
Do I have to hold your hand again?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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http://contrailscience.com/
There are some nice updates at this site. Note in particular the timestamped satellite video and the projected path of the Hawaii flight.
Also posted is this shot from the next day, same time. Either another rocket on some kind of mysterious schedule or the same flight on its known schedule.
EDIT: Glenn do you realize how ridiculous it makes you look to rely on people like Wayne Madsen to do your thinking for you? This is like your other trusted source on UFOs who insisted he had been remotely cured of liver cancer by a distance healer. Here is why Wayne resigned from the Navy (OK, this is according to Wikipedia which is not always the last word in truth, but this is pretty consistent with Wayne's mindset).
"He resigned from the Navy in 1985 as a Lieutenant, having been passed over for promotion. Madsen described himself as the "most senior lieutentant in the Navy"[10] at the time of his resignation and has blamed his lack of advance on a powerful group of pedophiles hidden in the top of the U.S. Navy ranks."
EDIT 2: Seems a little small to point out, but you also undermine your own case by using "scientific" terms incorrectly. I know you are thinking that saying "Note the emitted specular light from the engine that is facing toward the observer" makes you sound a little extra credible but it just shows up a bit of ignorance! If you want to play the science thing, you need to learn some science.
EDIT 3: Glenn, do you know the difference between the Washington Post and the Washington Times (that you linked to)? Are you also a follower of Reverend Moon?
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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I've got a Mystery Missile of Love.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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This is not directed towards Glenn.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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no Klimmer, I asked you to do the calculation of the effect of the parallax, together with the uncertainty of the position of the helicopter, on your hypothetical explanation...
...that is the scientific way to proceed, not your typical ad hominem about unreasonable scientists...
...either you are blowing smoke or you're not, but if you're not, you can back up your claims with real evidence and not your totally stupid line of bullsh#t, "gee, that's what it looks like" doesn't cut it...
so, when you do that calculation, you might just find you cannot resolve the 3d position of the object, and you might also find that there are other solutions to the 3D reconstruction which would not rule out the possibility that it is "just an aircraft contrail"
You can do yourself a big favor in actually producing the goods here...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
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By the way, before I go to Church, I would just like to mention there is another way to prove it (but I already hit it out of the park with the setting Sun, the way the sun fully illuminates the high Cirrus Cloud completely from below that is in the fore-ground, yet back-lites the exhaust/vapor plume of the missile that is clearly higher than the Cirrus cloud that is leaning to the W - WNW direction, and then not to mention the fact that I provided a series of stereograms with more than sufficient parallax to clearly see the exhaust/vapor plume back-lit and leaning to the W -WNW and climbing at a very steep angle away from the coast) . . .
There exists good footage now and with this and Trig we can also prove it. The ole photogrammetry coming into to play . . .
Approach it very similar to how the British mapped and proved the elevations and distances to the high points (including Mt. Everest) within the Himalaya Mountains during The Great India Survey.
The elevation of the helicopter was known more or less, with key screen shots and lines plotted, angles measured, you can triangulate the horizontal distances to the base of the plume and to the max height of the plume. This could be plotted on Google Earth and see where these points are located. My theory, (more than a hypothesis now because I have overwhelming and outstanding evidence already,) is that this line plotted horizontally on a Google Earth map plot would be pointing in the W - WNW direction.
With a little more work and Trig you could also get close to the actual elevation of the tip of the exhaust/vapor plume, and prove that it goes much higher than any commercial jets go.
Someone should do this. I could do this, but it would take time to do.
Another means of proof waiting to be done.
C'mon people.
Edit:
Apparently Ed you think every 3D stereogram image must be mathematically evaluated and proved to show that you are actually seeing it in 3D and with depth of field, and that you are actually seeing what you are indeed seeing. Ed do you go around mathmatically proving that you are seeing in 3D and with depth of field?
Ed that is laughable.
Yes, we can do that, to prove an extremely obvious point. Parallax measurements in photogrammetry are usually done to calculate the height of things you are looking at in vertical aerial photography. But it can also be done for oblique and applied as well.
You do not then know how simple stereophotography works and the power of photogrammetry. Yes, I could calculate the parallax but in this case it isn't necessary. Anyone with a simple stereoscope can view the stereograms without doing the photogrammetry and calculating the parallax to see the exhaust/vapor plume is leaning away to the W -WNW. That is the point. Anyone can see it. They do not have to calculate it. Many people wouldn't know how to. I could do all the angle calculations and the trig involved, to calculate the parallax, but then why stop there? See the above argument.
Ed you are blowing serious smoke.
Further Edit:
Mike Bolte you are also blowing serious smoke.
Can you attempt to prove anything here? You just sit back criticize and try to debunk. You attack everyone's credibility except your own. You are the classic skeptic debunker who doesn't ever attempt to prove anything, at least not here. Just constant ridicule.
At least Wayne Madsen attends the press conferences and has the contacts within the DoD and has a look into the inside. He is interviewed often, his articles are published, and has very credible intel at times. He would be the first to tell you disinfo happens. But you have to be willing to wade through it and get to the truth. Why aren't you willing to do any of that?
Are you debunking the pedophile ring within the government, that was proven to have happened? Do you really want to go there? Do you really want to open that can of worms? Why even bring that up when that has nothing to do with what happened off of LA on Monday?
Well Mike since you brought it up . . .
Conspiracy of Silence - US Politicians Pedophile Ring
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=359924937663867563#
Consiracy of Silence video, Child sex ring that reached Bush Sr's Whitehouse. Cover up.
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2003/03/04/15796131.php
Washington Times Story: 1989 story about Bush Sr. Whitehouse call Boy sex ring
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2003/02/06/15709461.php
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 14, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
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Glenn keeps going on about the lighting and how he has somehow proven something. The logic is completely garbled and he doesn't even seem to be looking at the same photos as everyone else. And, why did you ignore this very sensible post by Paul Martzen? In addition to a sensible, simple statement about the lighting of the contrail which is consistent with an east-bound plane he asks the very sensible question: "where are the 100s of photos/phone videos from everywhere else?" There are none. Perhaps that is because this looked like a very ordinary airplane contrail from all but one vantage point.
I know it is silly to post on this topic, but feeling silly maybe.
If it was a rocket we would get reports from a very wide range of vantage points. If it came out of the sea from northwest of Catalina Island, then we would get the most reports from Catalina and from Ventura, Santa Barbara, etc. When rockets launch from Vandenburg they are visible over a huge area. Ships all around the area would report it. Airplanes would report it. Flight 808 would have seen it and reported it, since they were in exactly the same place at the same time. Instead we keep reexamining a couple sets of photos and videos all taken from similar vantage point.
In the second photo above, the back of the plume is in sunlight while the front of the plume is in shade, since it is taken after sunset. If it was a rocket, the lower part of the plume would be in shade and the higher part of the plume would be in sunlight as the rocket climbed out of earths shadow into the high sunlight. If it is a jet contrail then the back of the contrail can be in sunlight because it is further west and the sun has not set on that part of the contrail yet. The contrail goes dark as it goes east and passes into earth's shadow.
What I thought was particularly interesting about the story was how it immediately became certain that it was a rocket and that it originated from a specific location. How all responses from officials were so easily twisted from, "We don't know what you are talking about. There were no rocket launches." to "They have no idea who might have launched this rocket or why!"
They did not bother to call anybody in Catalina or Ventura or Santa Barbara. They just made up their minds and ran with the story as it was. Which I guess, is probably a good way to create some excitement on a slow news day.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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ah, granite's all cranked up again. knew it would happen.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
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Oh, boy.
Yes, I can see that you all have some serious egg on your face and are desperately trying to some how extradite yourself from the embarrassment. Just be embarrassed. It happens. You'll live. Perhaps one day you'll find it within yourself to apologize.
These people are far more credible witnesses and have credible testimonies than anyone here at ST blowing smoke:
The original cameraman and pilot for KCAL . . . from before:
Yea, that KCAL photographer on the Helicopter didn't really know what he saw when he witnessed the spiralling effect of the missile launch . . .
Nope, he didn't know what he was talking about. What a bad, bad observer.
All images taken from this copy of the original video footage shot by KCAL:
Raw Video: Mystery Missile Appears over Southern California. Helicopter CAM "no audio"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAZLYn44FeQ&feature=related
'video shot by a KCBS/KCAL Cameraman Gil Leyvas News helicopter in Los Angeles that shows an object shooting across the sky and leaving a large contrail, or vapor trail, over the Pacific Ocean. Pentagon Can't Explain 'Missile' Off California Coast.
"Whatever it was, it was spinning up into the sky kind of like a spiral," and was easy to distinguish from condensation trails from jets, he said. "It was quite a sight to see. It was spectacular" said the cameraman.'
Wayne Madsen came out very soon after 11-8-10 with the story from his intel contacts. Amazing how telling the truth and being brave and stepping out gets you in front of the rest of the pack . . .
Yes, more than likely the DoD was telling the truth when they said "It wasn't ours." Well then if it wasn't ours it sure was somebodies. I can just imagine the backroom talks at the DoD/Pentagon . . .
"Well then if it wasn't ours it sure was somebodies. Well, uh, wait, ahhhh . . . that isn't gonna make us look good either. That's gonna make us look like idiots since we didn't know anyone else was out there and was capable of pulling off this very public display and stunt just off of LA.
Let's go with public disinfo plan B. Let's let them feel like idiots. Let's get them to think it was a contrail from a commercial jet. We'll use that as long as possible. Send out our best debunkers ASAP. All the typical naive sheep will follow along."
Wayne Madsen: Ballistic Missile was Fired by Chinese Submarine! - Alex Jones Tv 1/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1qsPWeWh8k
Wayne Madsen: Ballistic Missile was Fired by Chinese Submarine! - Alex Jones Tv 2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7ekoPpSozI&feature=related
Great listen. Listen to the whole thing especially 8:36 minutes in. That is so true, especially for here at ST. Lol.
Once again . . . I'm holding your hands here:
May I sugggest Pokescope if you do not have a pair:
http://www.pokescope.com/
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 14, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
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Glenn, here is your chance to do some debunking! How come this was only noted as out of the ordinary and reported from one vantage point? The rest of the 10 million good citizens in LA were all cooking dinner? Not one southern californian out on the beach enjoying the sunset? And, what do you think of this seemingly careful work (with each step explained and following from the previous step) at that website you don't seem to want to comment on?
EDIT: seems to be a limit to figure caption length. But, if you are intrigued, just go to this site:
http://contrailscience.com/
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 14, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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If only there had been a missile, and it was aimed at klimmer, Rokjox, suap and all the other local crackpots.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
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Nice update MB. Looks like UPS902 from Hawaii is a better fit.
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Nohea
Trad climber
Sunny Aiea,Hi
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Nov 14, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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You know now that I think about...nobody has heard from Niihau in a while.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 04:28pm PT
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Chinese sub warning/
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 14, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
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Since this has already been bumped back up, I'll note that when I saw the original video I thought "sure looks like a rocket or a missile, wonder what's up". I could also easily imagine any of several military agencies running tests and denying it publicly--not for particularly sinister reasons, but simply because that is how they work and there is no reason to give away any of the US capabilities.
But, all of Glenn's voodoo trigonometry aside, all the evidence seems consistent with a known flight. Is there a chance that that's not right and something got fired from a sub? Sure. But, pretty unlikely (actually, more like "no supporting data other than sure looks like a missile") vs pretty likely: I know which one I'll take every time.
Another interesting thing that Glenn could do if he is up to it is calculate the speed of the object with each assumption (plane vs rocket) and a reasonable distance estimate. If you get 500mph assuming the plane heading/distance that will be another check in the plane column.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 14, 2010 - 06:37pm PT
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Why would our military launch a missile so close to LA where everyone could see it...not much secrecy there...? Seems like they would do this out in the middle of nowhere? jus askin?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 14, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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That's true anderson...
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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Here's a shot of the object with the contrail dissipating, since it's approaching our warm land mass.
It's pretty clear the object is going towards us, given the narrow distant contrail and enlarging middle section.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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Dammit GC! USS Cusk attempts to launch Loon missile (V-1 copy) in 1947. Not a Regulas 1 though.
Captain dived to put out the fire.
Klimmer explodes a couple posts below.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
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OK, Monolith. I'll add it back in.
mY father worked in aerospace and held a SAC security clearance. He worked on many projects that were NEVER disclosed to the public. For instance, the burning of a conning tower on a sub off the cali coast when they tried to launch the regulus 1 from it. One teensie example.
Bad example.
USS Cusk, July 7, 1948
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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From:
http://contrailscience.com/
11-8-10 GOES Animated Loop and Time Stamped:
Assuming it is correct, with the correct GOES images on 11-8-10, and that each has been time stamped correctly . . . assuming all that is correct . . .
Then the exhaust/Vapor plume from the missile going upward at a steep angle to the W - WNW and back-lit from the setting Sun would be right here . . .
Notice they timed it with the flight and contrail further South approaching L.A.
Game over.
It is a missile just as we said it was.
Thanks to PhD Mike Bolte for inspiring me to look at a Contrail "Debunker" website. Thanks for the tip. That guy on that website is clue-less.
You can even see that the missile changed direction on the ascent to the W - WNW in the satellite image of the plume.
And yes, it was even within the missile test zone off of L.A.
If it wasn't ours, then it was theirs. The DoD knows and is trying to con the American public probably because it is highly embarrassing.
Wayne Madsen probably knows a little about what he is talking about. He is talking to insiders who actually tell the truth.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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well there is all sorts of theories now being thrown, but in short, the chinese think it was a missile, the experts in england think it was a missile,and alot of experts and military as well as ex military say it was a missile. Even Japan says it was a missile...
What are your sources? I think you're making this up.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
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And that's why 240 degrees does not work Klim. You are not pointing at the contrail.
You haven't shown your work on calculating the 240 degrees either, klimmer.
Do you let your students get away with that too? You got sucked in by your own sloppy work.
You are self-debunking! Thanks so much, Klim. Like you say, Game Over.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
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Game over.
It is a missile just as we said it was.
Maybe if you say it over and over and over again it might actually come true.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
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ah, Glenn missed the contrail and focussed on the clouds! Or maybe they are not clouds, but there is certainly no way to tell based on the images although it is curious that there were either two clouds or two missiles which you can very clearly see in the time sequence. That is the point where Glenn gets lost I think (becoming convinced by ambiguous information).
I notice that now apparently "we" have adopted the assumption that "they" timed the missile launch to coincide with the flight! So devious!
EDIT: Glenn - you have elected to ignore all the hard questions. Why was this not flagged as an obvious missile launch from other vantage points? And, just look, there are TWO of your missile plumes that show up at about the same time. Were there two missiles?
EDIT2: Glenn, you need to review your book of rules for scholarly debate! You can't go calling everyone who disagrees with you or points out problems with your facts or thinking "dishonest".
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
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Sad Mike Bolte, you are not a very good or honest observer.
It is where I thought it would be, and is going in the direction I said it would be.
Like I said, you can even see the change in direction within the plume which we could easily see from the perspective of L.A.
Game over.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
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"Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are convinced beyond doubt that they are right."
 Laurens Van der Post
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
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Once again . . .
I knew this would attract the typical debunkers. It is soooo predictable.
LOL
From:
http://contrailscience.com/
11-8-10 GOES Animated Loop and Time Stamped:
Assuming it is correct, with the correct GOES images on 11-8-10, and that each has been time stamped correctly . . . assuming all that is correct . . .
Then the exhaust/Vapor plume from the missile going upward at a steep angle to the W - WNW and back-lit from the setting Sun would be right here . . .
Notice they timed it with the flight and contrail further South approaching L.A.
Game over.
It is a missile just as we said it was.
Thanks to PhD Mike Bolte for inspiring me to look at a Contrail "Debunker" website. Thanks for the tip. That guy on that website is clue-less.
You can even see that the missile changed direction on the ascent to the W - WNW in the satellite image of the plume.
And yes, it was even within the missile test zone off of L.A.
If it wasn't ours, then it was theirs. The DoD knows and is trying to con the American public probably because it is highly embarrassing.
Wayne Madsen probably knows a little about what he is talking about. He is talking to insiders who actually tell the truth.
I have proven it many different ways and all the evidence points to the truth that it is a missile.
Sorry you can not handle that.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nice quote Cintune.
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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Nov 14, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
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Thanks for your post Mike Bolte.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 14, 2010 - 10:20pm PT
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I knew this would attract the typical debunkers. It is soooo predictable.
Because once again you've substituted the absurdly complex explanation for the rational one. Don't get all huffy and surprised when we come around, you should expect it by now after making so many ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 14, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
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How many of you ever heard of the regulas 1, not to mention the fact it burnt a conning tower off of a sub outside pt Mugu nearly sinking the sub? Not one of you would be the answer. THE only reason i know is that my Dad was on the project. How many of you knew that icbm missle silos have gone on FULL alert many times in the past? probably not many...THe only reason i know is that my brother was there. do we see a pattern? America for years knew nothing of the VAST underground structure known as the Strategic Air Command.
None of this stuff has been secret for many years. It's common knowledge now among those interested in this stuff--aviation and naval history buffs.
My Dad was assigned there working on a secret guided missile system...A significant part of Nebraska was OFF LIMITS and the SAC COMMAND CENTER was there UNDERGROUND. did I stutter?? I have my Dads SAC id card..I also got to hunt chukars in the most restricted area of nevada at the time, palomino valley-where they built and test fired the LM ascent and descent stage engines for the apollo series. You never saw a picture of area D have you....I have some...Dad was the final safety inspector for those engines an his stamp is on them on the moon... I could go on with all sorts of things you never knew...
Roy, you are denigrating your Dad's honor and integrity if you are implying he told you classified information. He could tell you about that stuff because it isn't secret anymore, and hasn't been for a long time.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:14am PT
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Apparently Ed you think every 3D stereogram image must be mathematically evaluated and proved to show that you are actually seeing it in 3D and with depth of field, and that you are actually seeing what you are indeed seeing. Ed do you go around mathmatically proving that you are seeing in 3D and with depth of field?
Ed that is laughable.
well the short answer is, yes I do think about these things, it is something that I had to work through in various experiments that I did, and yes, photogrammetry is powerful, but it is not absolute and in situations where it is set up to make do a measurement it often fails... anyone who has ventured out into wilderness areas where there has been no "ground truth" verification knows that topos made form just photogrammetry can be very wrong.
There are a number of things to consider in making your claim, you have done nothing but to state some strange absolutes without any verification. In particular, your ability to see how far out something is with a "3D stereogram" depends critically on the parallax of the measurements. Your experience of depth perception is a combination of many different strategies, most of which are not available to view your particular scene. In human vision, most people can resolve the horizontal separation of 2.3 minutes if arc, about 1 mrad... that's a millimeter at a meter, at a kilometer that would be a meter, at 100 kilometers that's 100 meters... displacements less than that cannot be resolved stereoscopically...
For your particular problem we do not know the distance, what we presume to know is the heading of the object, and the position of the camera... let's assume for a moment that the path the helicopter is flying along is perpendicular to the object to simplify things.
At position 1 we make a bearing measurement Θ1 and at the second point a bearing of Θ2, the separation distance between points 1 and 2 we can take as S, then the distance the object is away from us, D, is given by:
D = S/(tanΘ1 - tanΘ2)
Let's say that S is 1 mile, then to get a D of 30 miles the difference in the angles would have to be something like 0.03 radians, or about 2 degrees...
I'm skeptical that you can get that sort of measurement from your pictures (and by the way, your forgot that the earth is globe when you drew the bearings on the satellite view of the contrails, you've got your coordinates badly goofed up there).
We don't know, for instance, the path of the helicopter, this matters because it can change the angles that we measure. Where do your stereogram positions come from? And the resolution of the object, such as the claim that it is a spiral as opposed to something else depends on our ability to resolve the depth of the feature (meters?) at that distance. A 10% error in the measurement of the angles leads to a 0.3 mile error in the position of the object, we're talking 0.2 degrees, and in your picture, there are roughly 60 degrees across (if I believe your labeling) for about 800 pixels, that's 0.075 degrees per pixel, 2 degrees is 27 pixels, and an error of just 3 pixel displacement gives you the 1584' error... pretty big 3D features...
Put the other way, an object 30 miles out on your picture can be resolved to about 500' with these estimates...
Once again, this makes assumptions about the helicopter path... which I actually know nothing about, having guessed some numbers which may be reasonable for the purpose of estimate.
So you have nothing, except perhaps laughter...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:26am PT
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Stzzo,
I'm gonna ignore your ignorance and just let you hang yourself.
For everyone else:
Ed H., Mike B., and Tom C.,
Quick trig. without using the curvature of the Earth, assuming a right triangle only (just a rough estimate but a reasonable one). . .
Using the WNW high point of the exhaust/vapor plume that has drifted just South of the green arrow head plotted, and measuring the flat linear distance to this point from Long Beach Harbor = 177.53 miles.
The angle Theta = 9.5 degrees, from the horizon to the tip of the exhaust/vapor plume.
Knowns:
Adj. = 177.53 miles
Theta = 9.5 degrees
Unknown:
The altitude of the last exhaust/vapor plume is the opposite . . .
Opp. = ?
Tangent (theta) = opposite/ adjacent
opp. = (Adj.) (Tan theta)
opp. = (177.53 miles) (Tan 9.5 degrees)
opp. = 29.708333 miles = 29.7 miles
Convert miles --> feet:
(29.7 miles/1)x (5280 feet/1 mile) = 156, 816 feet
The missile went at least 156, 816 feet high. Even higher considering the curvature of the Earth.
Obviously this is much higher than commercial jets with passengers go or even military jets. This is a higher altitude than a record breaking military jet has flown, as far as I know.
Twas a missile.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:32am PT
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Ed H., Mike B., and Tom C.,
Quick trig. without using the curvature of the Earth, assuming a right triangle only (just a rough estimate but a reasonable one). . .
Using the WNW high point of the exhaust/vapor plume that has drifted just South of the green arrow head plotted, and measuring the flat linear distance to this point from Long Beach Harbor = 177.53 miles.
The angle Theta = 9.5 degrees, from the horizon to the tip of the exhaust/vapor plume.
Knowns:
Adj. = 177.53 miles
Theta = 9.5 degrees
Unknown:
The altitude of the last exhaust/vapor plume is the opposite . . .
Opp. = ?
Tangent (theta) = opposite/ adjacent
opp. = (Adj.) (Tan theta)
opp. = (177.53 miles) (Tan 9.5 degrees)
opp. = 29.708333 miles = 29.7 miles
Convert miles --> feet:
(29.7 miles/1)x (5280 feet/1 mile) = 156, 816 feet
The missile went at least 156, 816 feet high. Even higher considering the curvature of the Earth.
Obviously this is much higher than commercial jets with passengers go or even military jets. This is a higher altitude than a record breaking military jet has flown, as far as I know.
Twas a missile.
you teach science?
you make a very elementary mistake, klimmer, in converting the angular extent to a spatial size without enough information, you know you can't do that without understanding something about the position of the object, which you assume, and your assumption is very incorrect.
a jet could fly a trajectory that ends up tracing out the exact same angle across the sky but at a constant altitude, you can't know the difference in your analysis, which is wrong.
look at this, Half Dome is larger than the Moon!
visual proof!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:47am PT
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Simple trigonometry Ed. Just like the British used to tell the heights of the great Himalaya. Ok they had a very accurate theodolite and got within 20 feet of the known elevation of Mt. Everest.
I know where the exhaust plume is. I know the scale of the GOES satellite image. I can quickly calculate the horizontal distance from Long Beach Harbor to the tip of exhaust plume. Yes, the hypotenuse would be a little longer. Close enough.
I used a visual inclinometer to measure the angle theta from the horizon to the tip of the exhaust/vapor plume, and I got 9.5 degrees.
Solve for the Opposite = Altitude of the missile plume.
Rough estimate but pretty darn close.
We do this in model rocketry all the time. Have you not ever calculated the height of a Testes model rocket?
Might want to rent "October Sky" for inspiration.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:47am PT
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To be more generous, I'd say it differently Ed. If Glenn wants to:
(1) assume this is a rocket
(2) assume a trajectory (basically flying straight up perpendicular to the surface of the Earth) and
(3) assume a distance for the launch point (I'm a little fuzzy on how he picked this particular distance, but perhaps I have not been paying attention), then he is right! He has the right triangle trig down pat.
But of course he has simply made a bunch of assumptions and done some trivial math. This doesn't prove anything about the nature of the event last week.
EDIT: Ah! I see that he is using the clouds from the weather satellites as the point where the rocket was fired. OK - assumption #3 stands, but now I'm not so fuzzy on where it came from.
Glenn - from your response, you have no comprehension of Ed's point. That is a little mind-boggling, but I guess this is hopeless. Signing off on this thread!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:51am PT
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klimmer, you are a joke...
I doubt you could fully understand how the British Survey calculated what they did, it is not "simple trigonometry" and to say so is either a tremendous demonstration of your ignorance or you're being disingenuous.
Your Testes rocket calculation works because you know how far you are from the launch point, and you know the angle of the rocket's trajectory, which is perpendicular to the surface.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 15, 2010 - 02:06am PT
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Ed,
I know how they did The Great Triangulation of India. I have read about it, studied it, known the trig behind it, and even have a great DVD on it.
Your Testes rocket calculation works because you know how far you are from the launch point, and you know the angle of the rocket's trajectory.
Bingo Ed. I know how far I am from the highest portion of the exhaust/vapor plume of the rocket. You can see the exact exhaust plume and the high point when it runs out on the GOES image. I know the horizontal distance to this point = 177.53 miles.
I know the angle Theta from the distant ocean/sky horizon to the last tip of the exhaust/vapor plume in the sky in the green marked up image. Yes, it is a rough estimate, but it is darn good one using my visual clinometer.
Yes, it will be higher because I haven't taken into account the curvature of the Earth.
I already admitted it isn't exact, it is a rough estimate. But it also is not widely off.
The same way we do it in model rocketry. No different. Basic Trig.
Edit:
You sight from a flat level horizon to the top of the exhaust/vapor plume. The ocean/sky horizon is that flat horizon to the top of the last known point, where the exhaust runs out. This is Theta.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 02:10am PT
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no, you still do not understand your model rocket,
you know two of the angles of the triangle with the corners: launch point, your position and the top of the trajectory, the one you measure at the top of the trajectory and the angle that the rocket launches at...
in your LA rocket hypothesis you only know one angle... and you are guessing what the distance is, you don't know. So there is insufficient information to calculate what you claim to have calculated.
that's simple trig...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 15, 2010 - 02:18am PT
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Ed,
Do I have to put a point on the GOES image for you?
I do know where the exhaust plume runs out.
I suppose I'm gonna have to do this for you. It is getting late. I'll have to do it later. But I will.
I can see the entire exhaust/vapor plume from near after the launch to where the last really evident wisp is on the the GOES image as it flew to the W - WNW. and then we can see the entire exhaust plume drift to the SSE.
You can disagree all you want, put I have located it and pointed it out. You see it build just as it builds and spreads out in the oblique images. No doubt about it. Does the same thing in the GOES satellite image. The exact same thing and in the exact same direction I said it would. Because it is leaning away from the coast toward the W - WNW, just as I said it does in the stereogram images. And yes the parallax is sufficient to see this clearly. But then you wouldn't know that since you haven't checked it out.
I know the adjacent side of the right triangle. I know theta. Solve for opposite. That is the elevation of the last missile plume seen.
Even my physics students can get this.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 02:35am PT
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here's what we are talking about:
you don't have any estimate of the angle of the rock launch... so you don't know how high it is...
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 15, 2010 - 03:02am PT
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That is not an exhaust plume on the satellite image. That is a cloud.
One forms right next to it at the same time, and the scale is totally wrong
for a rocket trail.
If that "exhaust trail" is going from the surface to 150,000 feet or so,
how is it staying straight? Rockets don't fly straight.
Rockets fly on an curved trajectory.
Rocket trails do not remain straight. The wind shear at different altitudes, twist it into all kinds of weird shapes.
Like this...
If it was a Chinese missile it would have been a JL-1 or a JL-2, either way,
a trajectory to the NW would have made the trail appear to actually curve back down toward the horizon. Like this...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 03:09am PT
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the curvature of the earth is important...
The solid arc is the surface of the Earth drawn to scale, the dashed line is a 20,000' constant altitude trajectory above the surface... from the viewer on the left, it appears to rise out of the horizon, and it's subsequent angular position still has it out at sea when that angle is 9ş but it is still 20,000' high.
Klimmer's "flat earth" is shown as the dotty line... a very different story.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 15, 2010 - 03:19am PT
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Come on Ed, don't confuse the argument with facts.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 15, 2010 - 09:40am PT
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I will discuss these sometime today; I'm just getting them posted for now . . .
The massive missile/vapor plume is right where I said it would be, and pointing and it grows in the W - WNW direction just as suspected. The stereograms I put together easily show this.
Please note the tip of the missile/vapor plume is behind and much, much, much higher than the "alpenglow" illuminated Cirrus cloud in the fore-ground, which are 16,500 - 40,000 feet high at mid latitudes.
We will go over the simple trig again. But you have to realize Ed that a few thousand feet off the deck in a helicopter is not going to make much of a difference over 177 miles. I did say it was a quick and rough calculation, but it is more accurate than the smoke you are blowing. It is a very simple calculation to do regardless of the curvature of the Earth. With that included, it will be even higher.
At 177 miles, you wouldn't even see your thin wispy barely perceptible contrail from a commercial jet. Nor would you see the flashes of light from a fuselage. What we saw glowing and emitting light was from a missile rocket engine over 177 miles away.
When I have the chance I will mark up a right triangle trig illustration of my own.
I'll get back . . .
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 09:58am PT
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Klimmer, you still have not shown your work for 240 degrees.
Use GE and show the line thru the harbor. Along with a still from the vid.
You will find the 240 degree line does not fit correctly if you put it close to the end of the San Pedro peninsula as is shown in a still
Classically bad science Klimmer. You fell in love with 240 and have been sucked further into lunacy cuz it pointed to some clouds somewhere along its path.
Were two missiles fired, cuz there are two clouds there Klimmer?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 10:38am PT
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look Klimmer, at 3000' the horizon is at about 50 miles, it does not change the curvature issues, but pushes it back a bit further, the Earth is not flat, and on the scale that you are calculating, you cannot ignore that curvature...
...the possibility that it was a missile is very very small, while the likelihood that it was an aircraft is much higher, overwhelmingly higher. Your calculations are not correct and do not lend any credence to the missile hypothesis.
You have a faith based hypothesis. There is not sufficient information from just the images to make a definitive statement on the missile. Given all of the information, the aircraft hypothesis is by far the strongest.
It is why we actually do the calculations, klimmer, to make sure that what we believe to be true is supported by the science. Just waving your arms in the air, in your case very rapidly, will no more cause you to take flight as to be right... you have to do the supporting work. Where you have tried to do it has exposed your set of assumptions, which is part of the process. In your case, that set of assumptions seems rather naive.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 11:56am PT
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Klimmer, did your missile go more or less straight up, cuz we don't see much of a downrange plume from the satellite pic.
As Shack's pic points out, missiles go downrange fast. And if we can see the 'wispy' contrail of the Hawaii flight from a satellite, then surely we would see your missile's plume if it went downrange.
And if it went more or less straight up (and very slowly), then why did it lose most of it's plume?
And why is it so narrow at the base?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
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ed and klimmer can argue the math of the image, but if anyone's interested in the case from other angles, step back and consider human behavior. this event raised considerable curiosity and it hasn't been satisfactorily explained. it was published as an unknown missile launch. the military agencies each denied it was theirs. this went all the way to the pentagon without anyone checking the flight log of known airplanes? "ain't no missile, it was an airplane, dummy. check with the FAA."
none of this happened. it got published internationally, and still no one came forward to say it was such-and-such an airplane on such-and-such a flight path, cleared with air traffic control. i think this trumps all of ed's sophisticated calculations, by which he tells us it could have been an airplane and may not have been a missile. if it really was an airplane, this would have been settled right away. klimmer, you're not going to beat ed at the math game. force him to address the rest of it.
here are the possibilities:
1. it was just a known airplane on a known flight path
2. it was a stray airplane and everyone's embarrassed because it violated a very vulnerable airspace
3. it was an american missile, lauched by mistake and everyone's embarrassed about that for obvious reasons
4. it was an american missile, launched on purpose and it's being denied for some reason we all ought to be trying to figure out here instead of working on #1 versus #3.
5. it was a missile launched by the chinese or some other entity playing rootin-tootin cowboy.
has there been an FAA news release telling us that, no, the air traffic control system did not break down that day, these goddam reporters just went off half-cocked? "just an airplane" makes the FAA look pretty bad if the press is saying it's a missile and they can't even tell us what airplane it was. it trumps your math, ed, hate to tell ya.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
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no, I think you've got it wrong Tony...
the flights were known, what is unknown is how the scene could have been constructed from the flight and the meteorological conditions, that's not such an easy calculation, and one that is more readily put aside... there are too many variables to provide a definitive reconstruction of a scene that has no need to be reconstructed.
"I saw it with my own eyes"
but what did you see?
Sometimes when I'm climbing in Tuolumne Meadows the conditions are just right so that there is a checkerboard grid of contrails from the various flights, both north-south and east-west, easy to reconstruct, amazing that the contrails can stay undispersed for hours... this doesn't always happen because it depends on a number of meteorological conditions not alway present.
Strange times we live in where the first reaction of the public is that there is some huge govt conspiracy...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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he, a trained aviator, could have been incorrect in assuming he could make that determination in those (unknown) conditions
it wouldn't be the first time
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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What gets me, is when you start to see X's and O's in those "contrail checkerboards"
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
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according to the links here, we have a "blogger" "solving" the mystery by conjecturing that it was the hawaii/phoenix flight, and then a "military adviser" to fox news saying, yea, sounds like that makes sense.
nothing official came out of the FAA and air traffic control to assure us that this was that flight, showing that the plane was there at that time, whether on schedule or a few minutes ahead or behind. we do have the DoD declaring it was "satisfied the event was likely caused by an airplane", but no one assured the public that the news people were mistaken. only conjecture.
i love it when the military gets vague like that. they will "likely" protect us. on 9/11 they missed four intercepts, including the one on the pentagon where they had 40 minutes of lead time. still pickin' their teeth and fixin' their hangnails, i guess. mind if i withhold a little from my next tax return?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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we have a "blogger" "solving" the mystery by conjecturing that it was the Hawaii/phoenix flight
And then all the sheep here on this forum crying in unison agreeing and calling anyone who thinks otherwise a wackjob all while it's completely clear that no one has positive proof of anything.
Now that's fuked up ....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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I have been very clear the entire time. After going down the road in the wrong direction no thanks to Monolith who posted some bad graphics I have turned around and figured it out.
Let's go over the evidence:
1) Cameraman with a helicopter pilot couple of thousand feet off the deck had a very clear view. Shot good video of the event. Said it was a missile. He said he could see it spiraling. We could all see the emitted specular light and glow for ourselves. We can see the clock-wise spinning patterns in the exhaust/vapor plume of the missile.
2) With the images and footage that the moving helicopter took it is easy to set-up stereograms with many different frames from the same footage. Did that. The paralax is more than enough to see the exhaust/vapor plume slanting steeply and upward to the W - WNW and that it is back-lit by the setting Sun. No matter who says you can not do this is absolutely wrong. I did it and I have viewed them over and over. I pretty much knew before doing the stereograms that is what I would see. Anyone who has half a brain can see the massive exhuast/vapor plume is back-lit from the setting Sun. This means the plume has to be facing away to the W - WNW.
3) The stereograms are visual proof. For Ed to say "No," is a joke. The exhaust/vapor plume is massive in size and at a very far distance. Plenty of paralax. View it and SEE!
4) Marking up an image from the original footage shot by the cameraman in the helicopter across the Long Beach Harbor, over the South end of the Palos Verdes Peninsula, and very North of Catalina Island, you can see the North end of the Island very South of the the exhaust/vapor plume, all lines up to about 240 degrees.
5) Also in the same image you can see that the very top of the exhaust/vapor plume is behind and much, much higher than the Cirrus cloud in the fore-ground that is evenly lit-up by the setting Sun. The Cirrus cloud is between 16,500 to 40,000 feet high. The tip of the exhaust plume is much higher than this since we can see it leaning away from the coast and still the tip is higher than the cirrus clouds. That high-end tip of the exhaust is very, very high. Has to be.
6) Using 240 degrees from the South tip end of Palos Verdes and going North of Catalina, lines right up with the massive exhaust/vapor plume in the the GOES satellite images. Not only that, you can see the plume going up steeply to the WNW and then the missile plume turns more toward the W and continues to ascend. Then you can see the entire massive exhaust/vapor plume spread by the winds and widden, and then drifts a short distance to the SSE not far South from 240 degrees. The massive plume grows through time toward the W - WNW and elongates as the missile ascends. It all fits and exactly where I said it should be. Bingo.
7) Then doing the simple trig, as anyone can do so firing model rockets to determine the approx. max. altitude, it isn't hard to do. I have shown the altitude of the max. exhaust/vapor plume to be well over any altitude that any jet craft can attain, > 156,000 + feet.
There is no doubt that it is a missile launch. Was it ours? Was it their's? The DoD knows.
Facts are facts. The evidence is what it is.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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Yep, it's the bogeyman. We knew it all along.
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
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Klimmer,
A question, please.
Cameraman with a helicopter pilot couple of thousand feet off the deck had a very clear view. Shot good video of the event. Said it was a missile. He said he could see it spiraling.
What does "spiraling" mean?
g
EDIT: Do you mean the "missle" was spiraling?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
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So Klimmer, you seem to be saying it went up steeply very slowly, hardly any downrange movement compared to the launches we've seen, cuz we certainly don't see much in the sat pic.
Why did the missile lose most of it's plume Klim and still be visible?
Why is the plume so narrow and enlarges 'higher' up?
I've got more questions, but lets start with these.
Do I need to repost the pic? It's in my previous post.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 15, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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mind if i withhold a little from my next tax return?
Tony, you (your household) pulled down $58K from the government last year and you're whining about your taxes?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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not that i give that much of a damn about it, but graniteclimber really does seem to have sources of information that he likes to show off on here. he has apparently broken the law in acquiring information about my last tax return and i have asked chris mcnamara to ban him from supertopo. chris is looking into this.
is graniteclimber an illuminatus? i really don't know if it's a myth or reality. at this point, i don't much care. he could be some sort of computer hacker who succeeded in getting the information, again illegally.
i'm going to ask everyone on here to post what you know about this guy. there was some question on another thread as to whether he's really a climber at all, but he seems to talk the climb jive, at least when he has to. if he really is a climber, i think he deserves a pretty good outing for a stunt like this.
i will be asking the IRS how he was able to get this information which is supposed to be held in confidence. he'll probably try to delete this post, so i'm going to ask everyone to be a witness to it, cut and paste the text, note the date and time you remember it appearing. i will be initiating an investigation against him. we're going to have the pin the little squirrel down first.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
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I think you will find there are a lot of public records available on the net, Tony, that is if you didn't blab it elsewhere.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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is graniteclimber an illuminatus? i really don't know if it's a myth or reality.
You mean, Special Agent Graniteclimber?
LOL!
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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Regardless of the source of the income data, accurate or knott, it serves no purpose other than to demonstrate the poster's lack of the character.
g
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 15, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
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Why would I delete the post?
The information was from a LEGAL source deemed reliable and was not from any tax returns or any IRS database.
So you are saying the source is accurate, Tony?
Why do you take government funds with both hands while your mouth spews anti-government venom and threatens to withhold taxes?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
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Sounds like a tea partier.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 15, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
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i'm going to ask everyone on here to post what you know about this guy. there was some question on another thread as to whether he's really a climber at all, but he seems to talk the climb jive, at least when he has to. if he really is a climber, i think he deserves a pretty good outing for a stunt like this.
Look Tony, you're the one who came after ME, attacking me personally and kept trying to find out as much as you could about me, and make it all about me, my background, what I climb, and so on. I didn't know you from Adam until you started doing this.
The difference between you and me is that I can deliver and you can't.
There is more where that came from. It's legally obtained and I can post it. If you like, I can post the full record.
Edit: I'll ask again, but I really do not expect a response. If you hate the government so much why don't you just give the money back? I am sick of hypocrites taking our tax money while simultaneously making accusing the government of being an evil conspiracy.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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There's your purpose Ron. Tony's been fixated on GC for quite some time.
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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Tune it back a notch or two guys. Quit acting like you are still in fifth grade.
Thanks,
g
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 15, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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Graniteclimber,
Dissent is Patriotic. We have a Constitutional Right to grieve our government and hold them to account for doing wrong. Anyone who says different is allowing the crimes and corruption to continue.
Or do you prefer to let high crimes and corruption to rule the day?
Try reading some Howard Zinn and learn what being a true Patriot is all about.
Telling the truth and not dishonestly debunking would be a really good start.
Baby steps.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati
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Nov 15, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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Klimmer, read my posts on the waterboarding thread.
There is no crime here--only pictures of a contrail. You say it's from a missile, but all the evidence points to a jet being the most likely source.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 15, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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There is no crime here--only pictures of a contrail. You say it's from a missile, but all the evidence points to a jet being the most likely source.
Telling the truth would be a start.
It is easy to prove that it is a missile. The evidence all proves my points. But there are dishonest debunkers out there trying to spin the jet contrail story. Seems to me you easily fall into that category. I do think there are those who are now thinking jet contrail, but will look at all the evidence including the stereograms etc. and will come to the realization that I'm right and will then allow the real evidence to change their mind.
There are a lot of people out there so willing to blow smoke and debunk dishonestly. It is really very, very sad.
This sort of thing happens over and over again. Some people just can not face the fact that our government does sometimes lie and acts very dishonest. We shouldn't stand for this. What they do is a reflection of us.
There will be many others who will do the same work I've done and come to the same obvious undeniable conclusion. Our DoD knows, whether we shot it or another foreign Government did it. They knew day number one. Many in the intelligence world are saying the same thing. So when will Uncle Sam ever admit the truth about this missile? They will have to one day, when everyone else in the world already knows. Why should it take sooo long to tell the truth?
They need to tell the truth now. Many are going to do the easy science I have, and come to the overwhelming obvious truth.
All of the data lines up and points to just one event, a missile launch.
Edit:
Posting that personal information of another person without their permission is dishonest and immoral whether you think it is legal or not. You have a real problem with ethics. You should not have done that to Tony or anyone else for that matter. I know what I'm talking about. You know it has been done to me. I will not mention their names.
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
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Do missles spiral?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 15, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
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But there are dishonest debunkers out there trying to spin the jet contrail story.
What makes them dishonest? That they are disagreeing with you?
Your "case" that it is a missile is similar to Bush/Cheney's case that Iraq had missiles of mass destruction. Each is based on a pre-determined conclusion and all evidence contrary to that conclusion being discarded as false or disinformation.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 15, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
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Pretty obvious answer to that question.
Google spiraling or spinning missiles and search for photos.
Prove it to yourself.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 15, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
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Not what appeared over the skies of Los Angeles.
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
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I am knott a scientist or rocketeer. But every video I have seen of a missle launch shows no spiraling or spinning at all. I thought those little fin thingies at the ass end of missles were to prevent that. Also, doesn't spinning/spiraling create more friction and thus limit the efficency of the projectile?
The real question, of course, is how did the camera man &/or pilot see spinning/spiraling at the distance involved in this instance, especially when the object was essentially back-lit?
g
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 06:12pm PT
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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We saw mysterious roped missile going up the nose today.
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
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Werner,
Were they spiraling/spinning? LOL.
Thanks,
g
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
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Klimmer:
“Dissent is Patriotic”. Depends how far you take it.
You are only indoctrinating yourself into self-deception that will only intensify in the future.
Your observable behavior characteristics are making you a marker. What lies ahead? Hopefully a non-dangerous/destructive behavior, sad, hope you don’t take the next step.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
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And this is how disinfo and dishonest debunking gets started and going with TPTB . . .
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/nationworld/stories/DN-missile_15nat.ART.State.Edition1.e26eea.html
Two airborne trails spur two very different tales
09:38 AM CST on Monday, November 15, 2010
Brian Stelter and William J. Broad, The New York Times
Gil Leyvas has been a photojournalist on board a television news helicopter for a decade. He has seen countless airplanes and their wispy contrails. What he saw – and recorded – near Los Angeles on Nov. 4 and 8 looked nothing like the trail from an airplane. It looked, to him, like the launching of a missile.
The first time, it looked like a far-off plume of smoke over the Pacific Ocean. The second time, it appeared to be rising into the air, a large vertical column set against the bright orange sky at sunset.
The sunset video piqued the attention of KCBS, the TV station Leyvas works for, and by dawn the next day, last Tuesday, news anchors were speaking of a "mystery missile," one that apparently posed no danger to Los Angeles but that baffled people who saw it. By the end of the day, the video had garnered worldwide attention, which the absence of an official government explanation magnified.
On Wednesday, about 30 hours after the "mystery missile" started attracting news media attention, a Pentagon spokesman said that "there is no evidence to suggest that this is anything else other than a condensation trail from an aircraft." That day, news coverage took a sharp turn, with many reporters, and experts, concluding that what Leyvas had seen was an airplane or, barring that, an optical illusion. Some experts chastised media outlets for running with a half-baked, whole-hyped story.
John Pike, director of GlobalSecurity.org, said from the start that the tape showed an airplane. In an interview, Pike, whose group in Alexandria, Va., analyzes space and military technologies, defended the military's evasiveness as resulting not from dissembling but from the difficulty of knowing with certainty what every part of its vast network was up to. Pike added that television news programs had acted irresponsibly in pushing the missile hypothesis without bothering to establish basic facts that would have quickly cleared up the riddle.
Scott Diener, news director at KCBS, said that the experts interviewed by KCBS on Tuesday night and Wednesday morning had leaned toward the missile hypothesis, spurring the initial "mystery missile" coverage. Asked why he thought there had been a change in the tone of the coverage, he surmised that the aircraft was "the explainable answer as opposed to the unexplainable."
Brian Stelter
and William J. Broad,
The New York Times
And that is how you bury the truth.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
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you can't handle the truth.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
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Klimmer:
“Dissent is Patriotic”. Depends how far you take it.
You are only indoctrinating yourself into self-deception that will only intensify in the future.
Your observable behavior characteristics are making you a marker. What lies ahead? Hopefully a non-dangerous/destructive behavior, sad, hope you don’t take the next step.
Lost,
That is 100% USDA Bull Dung and you know it. Don't try saying anymore poop.
I'm as peaceful as Jesus, Ghandi, or Howard Zinn.
"Those who live by the Sword will die by the sword."
Matthew 5:9 (KJV)
"Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."
We can and all should speak truth to power, in peace, no violence of any kind. The message is truth not violence.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
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Klimmer
"The truth"
This where it all starts or ends.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
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Monolith
I used top secret software to analyze your photo above, zoomed in, restructured it, and found this ...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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Notice how the main "contrail" terminates in a large dark ark-shaped "cloud"--very similar to the ark on the moon. And "they" are trying to make us believe that it is a missile, or if not a missile, an airplane. Is this part of a disinformation campaign? LOL.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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Werner,
Gud job, but it ain't spinnin'!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
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Further enhancement using an updated version of Werner's software reveals the frightening truth.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
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Werner's missile could be spinning. I read they make it spin slowly so lasers can't heat up one spot.
GC finds the greatest pics. To bad Tony and Cochrane can't appreciate.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 15, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
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But then I used Locker's software. After some, err, "enhancement" we have this:
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
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GC,
Do you have a higher res version of that? We can't tell if the contrail is spinning!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
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Contrail? I didn't notice any contrail. Not on that picture.
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
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Mister Answers has a comment and question and an answer!
Comment: boy howdy, step away from SuperTopo for the weekend and you get a good feel for the volume of noise and smoke (get it?) that is generated every day! Don't any of you people with your rapid-fire posts have a life? (That makes it: one comment, TWO questions and one answer).
Question: Is Klimmer drifting toward a state where he is a danger to himself or others?
Answer: I am happy to say the answer is No! It was demonstrated for the entire viewing public that he is a simpleton, plain and simple. But, fortunately for his own self image, he is so completely deluded by his sense of great intelligence and shielded by his own remarkable lack of understanding that he did not even notice! This avoided the usual resentment that goes with being publicly humiliated so everything is fine. True, he is getting a bit testy and insulting, but this may be due to the persistent questions that get asked again and again for which he has no answer.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
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Sorry, I might have mis-spelled contrail.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
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Reilly, that makes you a contrite contrail speller.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
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piss poor class and NO purpose.. I really do wish the insults and innuendos were less around here-its the worst out of any forum im on...
KISS MY ASS RON.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 15, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
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A stereo-gram is needed.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 15, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
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So because it "looks like a rocket" to some people it is enoughto convince them that it actually is a rocket.
The problem is, that in reality, it looks and acts nothing like a rocket.
It only looks like what you imagine a rocket should look like.
The only thing even close to resembling that would be an upclose view of a Saturn 5 lift off....not something 35 to 200 miles away.
Could someone post a link to a rocket launch that looks like that?
I have watched dozens and dozens of videos and NONE of them look anything like what Klimmer claims is a rocket.
None of them spin either.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
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A web cam side shot, from contrailscience
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 15, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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The side shot says it all.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
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And a number of characteristics match up with the lower shot. They are the same event.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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not sure what "evidence" means, but we can take your points, point-by-point and discuss your interpretation
1) Cameraman with a helicopter pilot couple of thousand feet off the deck had a very clear view. Shot good video of the event. Said it was a missile. He said he could see it spiraling. We could all see the emitted specular light and glow for ourselves. We can see the clock-wise spinning patterns in the exhaust/vapor plume of the missile.
The view from the helicopter was no better than anyone elses view. 3000 feet gets you a 55 mile horizon, the fact that they saw the object on the horizon, as did everyone else, indicates that that end originates from a point further away than the horizon.
Their witness is recorded in the camera footage, which does not show the object as it came up on the horizon, nor was there any image of the motion of the object early in its trajectory. The "spinning pattern" is just what everyone sees on the images, and is an interpretation of the patterns.
2) With the images and footage that the moving helicopter took it is easy to set-up stereograms with many different frames from the same footage. Did that. The paralax is more than enough to see the exhaust/vapor plume slanting steeply and upward to the W - WNW and that it is back-lit by the setting Sun. No matter who says you can not do this is absolutely wrong. I did it and I have viewed them over and over. I pretty much knew before doing the stereograms that is what I would see. Anyone who has half a brain can see the massive exhuast/vapor plume is back-lit from the setting Sun. This means the plume has to be facing away to the W - WNW.
The fact that the object is three dimensional is a given. The depth of field of the stereograms depends, absolutely, on the distance between the points that the images were taken and the difference in the bearing of the objects at each of those points. If the helicopter is moving at 60 mph, that is 88 ft/sec, and the camera is framing at 24 frames per second, there are 3.7 feet between each frame. Taking two frames, the angular difference between them to the object, say 50 miles away is 3.7 feet/50 miles = 14 microradians ~ 1 millidegree, or about 3 arcseconds. We established that the pictures might have 13.5 pixels per degree, the angular difference is then subpixel: 0.0135 pixels... in other words, you can't get a true stereogram out of successive frames.
But please note that we do not have the velocity of the helicopter (a necessary quantity, and a vector) nor do we have the position of the helicopter (also in three dimensions), and finally we do not know how much the camera is moving around...
...so it is safe to conclude that the three dimensionality of klimmer's stereogram is an artifact of many things that have nothing to do with the actual position of the object. There is simply insufficient information to make that stereogram useful.
3) The stereograms are visual proof. For Ed to say "No," is a joke. The exhaust/vapor plume is massive in size and at a very far distance. Plenty of paralax. View it and SEE!
klimmer, if you don't know what you are looking at then you have no idea how to interpret what you see. Please correct my calculation above, fill in the details.
4) Marking up an image from the original footage shot by the cameraman in the helicopter across the Long Beach Harbor, over the South end of the Palos Verdes Peninsula, and very North of Catalina Island, you can see the North end of the Island very South of the the exhaust/vapor plume, all lines up to about 240 degrees.
the actual position of the helicopter is unknown, so it is difficult to determine the bearings from the picture to any accuracy, certainly not to 5ş, small changes in this position... what was the coordinate of the helicopter?
5) Also in the same image you can see that the very top of the exhaust/vapor plume is behind and much, much higher than the Cirrus cloud in the fore-ground that is evenly lit-up by the setting Sun. The Cirrus cloud is between 16,500 to 40,000 feet high. The tip of the exhaust plume is much higher than this since we can see it leaning away from the coast and still the tip is higher than the cirrus clouds. That high-end tip of the exhaust is very, very high. Has to be.
you have assumed a particular trajectory, an aircraft flying between 20,000' and 40,000' will fly above cirrus clouds, as you know, but we can probably even find out what the weather conditions are. Your reconstruction of the scene is possible, but it is far from unique.
6) Using 240 degrees from the South tip end of Palos Verdes and going North of Catalina, lines right up with the massive exhaust/vapor plume in the the GOES satellite images. Not only that, you can see the plume going up steeply to the WNW and then the missile plume turns more toward the W and continues to ascend. Then you can see the entire massive exhaust/vapor plume spread by the winds and widden, and then drifts a short distance to the SSE not far South from 240 degrees. The massive plume grows through time toward the W - WNW and elongates as the missile ascends. It all fits and exactly where I said it should be. Bingo.
if the object is oriented the way you said it is, then it is mostly vertical (see your assumption below) and will not make a very large segment on the satellite image. If the object is oriented at a constant altitude above the surface then there will be a long line...
perhaps you should draw a picture of what you think the trajectory looks like
7) Then doing the simple trig, as anyone can do so firing model rockets to determine the approx. max. altitude, it isn't hard to do. I have shown the altitude of the max. exhaust/vapor plume to be well over any altitude that any jet craft can attain, > 156,000 + feet.
you have made an assumption that the object is perpendicular to the plane that includes your observation point, a poor assumption not supported by any evidence. the calculation is not the same. in addition, missile trajectories are not vertical.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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Klimmer has been fooled by an optical illusion.
Your eyes deceived you, you formed a conclusion and again used your eyes
to "prove" only to yourself, that this is a rocket.
Just because it "looks" like it.
No flame.
Huge contrail, unlike any missile, land or sea launched, US or Chineese.
Totally wrong trajectory for a missile and too slow.
A missile launched from below the horizon some 50+ miles away and traveling W NW would have arced over toward the horizon, not some strange trajectory still visable for a long time. 3 minutes and the missile is gone out of site.
It doesnt even look like a missile.
Here is the exhaust trail of a Delta II...much larger than anything anyone could launch at sea, just minutes after lift off, already being twisted by the different wind speeds at the different altitudes...
Contrails don't do that.
Contrails don't always dissipate quickly and can stay around for hours,
because they are at the same altitude along their path and are made of condensed water vapor, like a cloud, and can last just as long if the conditions are right. Rocket exhaust is not water vapor, it is burnt rocket fuel.
Feel free to check out all the launches this guy has taken photo's of from Vandenburg. Try to find any that even slightly resemble the size and trajectory of the trail Klimmer claims is a rocket.
http://www.air-and-space.com/vafb.htm
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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Whoo Hoo! I get Post # 500 on Supertopo's Silliest Thread Ever!!!!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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Rockets develop a roll or spin as they ascend, due to imperfections in vehicle airframes and other factors such as wind shear, changes in vehicle weight and balance as fuel is consumed and sloshes in the tanks, uneven fuel burn, and airframe flexing.
Tail fins can be used to stabilize ballistic projectiles. Actuator controllable fins can be used within the atmosphere, as on an airplane.
Spin stabilization uses gyroscopic forces to offset aerodynamic tumbling forces. Obvious examples are an arrow or rifle bullet. Insufficient spin permits tumbling, and too much prevents correcting the angle-of-attack to the airstream as it traverses the trajectory. Drift of the trajectory can be created from various sources such as aerodynamic lift, airframe angle-of-attack, wind sheer, and rotation of the Earth.
Controllable aerodynamic fins are often not used on larger missiles, because of their rapid transition out of the atmosphere. Instead we use thrust vector control of the main engines as the primary guidance control mechanism. If you watch a shuttle launch on TV, you will see this mechanism being tested once the main engines are running and before the boosters are lit. You will see the main engine nozzles being moved around by hydraulic rams. We also use small roll-control thruster packs as part of the overall guidance, navigation, and control system.
Small errors and control feedback latencies in the attitude control system can quickly translate into spectacular deviations in vehicle attitude and flight path. All missiles have some degree of wobbling, depending upon the sophistication of the control system. The control algorithms are well understood; but reality has a way of throwing in surprises that have to be handled in flight testing. Accordingly it is not unusual to see a spiral missile track.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:44am PT
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Klimmer doesn't think it's silly....
He thinks,
it's a conspiracy!!!
Hahaha!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:05am PT
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He's busy preparing a massive rebuttal that will blow your socks off.
Better get ready ....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:29am PT
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This is one of only a couple of photos to reach the public media of the
Aurora's contrail. It was a Mach 6 pulsejet or pulse detonation wave engine.
There was a better photo published in Aviation Week but I didn't take the
time to look for it. It shows nice doughnuts more clearly. I do recall it
was taken over Idaho, lol.
An aviation enthusiast also recorded an exchange between ATC and
quite probably the Aurora, based on the speed with which it was handed off
by one center to the next. The skeptic would ask why a black project plane
would talk to ATC but the recording was verified by 'Aviation Week and
Space Technology' (the Wall Street Journal of the aviation industry).
The project appears to have been terminated in the late 90's.
ps
There may have been an accident with one in '93-94. There was a NOTAM issued
for a temporary Prohibited Area that lasted for months. The area was about
10 miles out on the extended centerline of Groom Lake's main runway
and the area was 5 miles in diameter. The Air Force said a 'helicopter'
had crashed. Uh, a 5 mile Prohibited Area and months to pick up the pieces
of a flipping helicopter? Right.
pps
Here's the one that shows the 'donuts' better:
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 09:21am PT
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having checked all the records and what not, it's obvious that graniteclimber got ahold of my wife's income figure from two years ago. mariko is an administrator at a public university and it's public record. one of the bee newspapers posts salaries for the whole state of california. i don't have a problem with that--i'm the first to demand that kind of openness in the use of public funds. if it's any comfort, all UC employees took a seven percent cut in pay since then.
let me know, granite, if you'd like to discuss whether my wife is worth the money she's paid. i won't ask you to be fair about it and tell us what you do and how much you make.
it's interesting that you should resort to picking on my wife. that's a tried-and-true government dark op. there's a movie out on the subject now, fair game. anyone else who did what the white house did to valerie plame would be charged with treason. gives an idea of the shitty way things are done these days, and it's why i wouldn't dream of asking you to be fair.
most of my life, apart from a brief stint as research assistant at the same university, has been spent working in the private sector. if you really want to embarrass me, you could try to snoop the history of my sorry-ass paychecks, declining every year as i've gone from publishing to language translation to carpentry, each industry laying off older workers in favor of younger, cheaper ones, not a whit of benefits or security to be had. this is the story of the private sector, unless you happen to be an executive in the defense contracting sector of the private sector, where all the money comes from the taxpayer, but you won't find the salaries in the sacramento bee.
as a footnote to a discussion about our technically dazzling but humanly incompetent and morally compromised government, the pentagon announced awhile back that it was missing $1 trillion. that's $5,000 for every citizen of the country, somehow mislaid by the same people who can't intercept a hijacked airplane with 40 minutes lead time and can't assure us about what goes on 30 miles offshore our most populous region. put your snoopy talents to work on this one, gran. a trillion dollars. i'm dying to know. the date of the announcement was september 10, 2001.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2010 - 09:50am PT
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By the way . . .
I have completed my quick study and graphics!
I put it into PPT and it looks nice.
I will be showing my colleagues, because surprisingly they want to know and its rocket science. A little peer review :-)
I will post up slides from it later when I get the chance.
Just a short message . . .
Can someone please call the DoD/Pentagon and let them know they can stop the charades now:
We know what we saw.
We know it was a missile of some kind.
We know where it was fired from.
We know the approximate time it was fired.
We know what direction it went in.
We know approximately what altitude it ascended to.
We can prove it all empirically with evidence of all kinds.
If it was not the DoD/Pentagon’s missile, well, it was someone's. Better get on that and figure it out. Yea, its kind of embarrassing, but better than telling lies.
Also would you please tell them while you have them on the phone to pull-back their missile debunkers on MSM who keep trotting out the commercial jet air-liner contrail myth. They are just looking really stupid. It’s embarrassing.
Edit:
Tony, 2.3 Trillion went missing. Donald Rumsfeld announced it at the Pentagon on 9-10-2001.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 10:50am PT
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Can someone please call the DoD/Pentagon and let them know they can stop the charades now:
no, klimmer, no one can.
let me refer you to my previous post of possibilities here:
1. it was just a known airplane on a known flight path
2. it was a stray airplane and everyone's embarrassed because it violated a very vulnerable airspace
3. it was an american missile, lauched by mistake and everyone's embarrassed about that for obvious reasons
4. it was an american missile, launched on purpose and it's being denied for some reason we all ought to be trying to figure out here instead of working on #1 versus #3.
5. it was a missile launched by the chinese or some other entity playing rootin-tootin cowboy.
dingus is wrong about you playing us like strings, and i don't mind getting in your face about it. i think you're a half-baked bornagain, and you don't belong out here trying to make sense of the real world until you admit to yourself that god isn't going to be coming down on a cloud any day soon to straighten it out. i also think you should leave off this ridiculously technical discussion and pay attention to the human behavior involved. you're never going to keep up with ed on scientific doubletalk and you're boring the crap out of me trying. ed would have egg on his face the minute someone concedes this was a missile, which is never going to happen.
me, i think it's equally outrageous that it could have been an airplane without a credible government response to the widespread publicity it generated. if you've ever reported on government, you know that lack of forthright response means they're hiding something, a surer proof than your toying with vectors.
stop whining for "somebody please call up the pentagon" and talk about the motivation over an obvious embarrassment. i'm leaving out #1 above because it should have resulted in a routine announcement. it really shouldn't even have been a story, if the television newsroom did the fact-checking which usually gets done. the real story at this point is what the FAA told the fact-checker, which was probably something like, "it wasn't a cleared airplane on our radar at that moment, check with the navy and air force". once a situation like that unfolds, they can't cover their tracks. the reporter would remember what the FAA said at an unguarded moment.
i really doubt it's #2 either. air traffic control is good at what it does. that would leave us 3, 4 and 5. #3 is easily discounted. if the toothpick guy f*#ked up, the public doesn't even have to know. all you say is, "it was a missile in the normal test zone. didn't you get the message?" even if a message wasn't put out, news reporters don't even care any more. the federal manual of excuses is five inches thick and the public has heard it all. government incompetence <yawn> <yawn>.
so my money goes on #4 or #5. madsen may be 100 percent correct. china's denial may be a 100 percent lie. hu jintao would have called barack on the hotline and said, "neener, neener, you mofo, open yer legs a little wider so's we can send more containerships of crap to the walmarts". and barack, like the good little boy he's always been, would have asked, "how much wider?"
----------
um, i heard it was only a trillion. should we put a fact-checker on it?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 11:26am PT
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Be sure to include these pics for your colleagues, Klimmer. They should see all the evidence right?
Your sloppy work and blinders trapped you in a cloud way out in the pacific, these pics liberate you from your confinement.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 11:33am PT
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interesting, that second pic, mono. you guys have to learn to read words instead of arguing with picture books the way they do in second grade.
as we've mentioned so tiresomely before on this thread, an airplane coming towards the observer would have continued to come towards the observer. a scenario like that second picture shows the airplane obviously coming towards the news guys. even if the contrail would somehow have magically disappeared, as graniteclimber likes to fantasize, still you have the airplane, backlit by the setting sun, getting closer and closer, to the point where it passes overhead, easily observed as the jetliner it's supposed to be.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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The 'magic' of the disappearing plane happens when the object enters the post sunset area, Tony. It's so visible now because it is backlit and still producing a small contrail.
But Jeebus Tony, you are dumber than a rock. The pics show the object was not going in the direction,steepness or origin as Klimmer has 'proven'.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 11:48am PT
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the LAX airspace is complicated, and the local control would route incoming aircraft on a bearing to their next position... so it wouldn't necessarily be coming in straight, especially there
klimmer has this thing with stereoscopic reconstruction of photographs, a technique which he doesn't fully understand, it is a strange fetish that satisfies some optical gratification mechanism in his brain...
as more images of that scene are posted, I believe that they will show that the most likely explanation is an aircraft.
my objection to klimmer is not that he has the hypothesis that it is a missile, but that he cannot support it with any credible information, (his stereoscopic reconstruction is not credible, and he has not responded to my questions, probably because he cannot) but he apparently has a "faith based" approach to science, tony too...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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Mono,
You are pretty good at posting Bull Dung.
Please show me exactly where this image is taken from and what was the original website you found it at. I really can't trust what you do anymore.
http://consci.s3.amazonaws.com//skitch/Preview-20101115-165414.jpg
We need to know what perspective this is taken from.
Edit:
Ed,
You are seriously blowing smoke. I've posted the stereograms for all to look at and see for themselves. I'm hiding nothing.
I have shared them with colleagues here at work and they can easily see it too. The exhaust/vapor plume leans away from the coast in a N - WNW tilt back-lit by the setting Sun.
They see it too.
Stereo viewing does not lie. Plenty of parallax to easily see. The exhaust/vapor plume is massive and 177 miles off the coast and leaning away to the W - WNW just as I said it would. We can even exaggerate the parallax effect by taking images even further apart in the original video shot by the cameraman in the KCAL Helicopter. This exaggeration only increases the depth of field to see it even better. It will only increase the real effect.
Sorry Ed try again.
I'm really not sure why you are resisting and making up stuff about stereo viewing. I know it very well. You are making all kinds of claims yet not checking out any of the evidence. Makes me wonder why you are doing this???
I'm sharing the PPT with my colleagues, and I can see many of the details zooming into the GOES satellite image vertically that perfectly match the details of the exhaust/vapor plume seen from the oblique perspective from Long Beach Harbor. I've added all of this to my PPT.
I will post after my colleagues have had a very good look for themselves and check my work.
I will get back but it may be a while.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
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Use your 'analytical' skills Klimmer. Identify characteristics of the pics which link them together as the same event. We know the lower pic was taken from Long Beach. We know the upper pic was taken from another position on land in the LA area. Contrailscience says it was from LAX.
No location for that pic in the greater LA area can can show the object going in the direction, steepness and origin you claimed.
Just trying to save you from embarrassment when the football coach sees your presentation.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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nice page of professionally concocted disinformation there, reilly, done in a very timely manner. i'll bet they're reading this very thread. do you notice that there still hasn't been any official announcement? i suspect that's because any official position would be extremely difficult to support. what we have instead are explanations in bloggerese.
leaving my stupidity out of it, please, explain to me why the old saw about the angle of incidence equalling the angle of reflection should not apply here. airplanes backlit by the setting sun wouldn't have a lit-up tail like your disinfo airplane, which looks to me like it's lit from the rear quarter so that the reflected light source, which appears to be the mid-day sun, can reach the observer. the videos show an emission of light brighter than the already muted light reaching the airplane through our lovely marine layer of smog. that's another good one for the scientists--reflections putting out brighter light than they receive.
you have to remember, jeebus-mono, that this plane was being observed by professionals in a news helicopter who quickly decided it was a missile. they would have been sensitive to all these obvious little effects you're pointing out, which any moron looking at a sunset would understand, and yet they were satisfied it wasn't an airplane approaching them. if they'd waited one more minute they would have seen it. this isn't an excited kid running inside to tell mommie what he saw, it's people who could lose some pretty good-paying jobs if they broadcast a gaffe such as you imply to the world. then it went to a newsroom which, as i posted, would have vetted the story before publishing it. things like this are not broadcast from the field. it went all the way to the pentagon, which certainly ought to have had every bit of information available from ATC, and their response was "dunno".
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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nice page of professionally concocted disinformation there, reilly, done in a very timely manner. i'll bet they're reading this very thread.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
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Tony,
I don't recall implying or saying you were stupid. I only provided the link
in my capacity as a disinterested dissembler. The Contrailscience explanation
is altogether too neatly done, if you don't happen to like neat explanations.
As for the reflections all I will say is that given the complicated geometry
of the rear of a rear-engined plane like the MD-11 one could get some very
interesting reflective permutations some of which could conceivably contrive
to amplify a single light source.
Let's all rejoice that this UPS crew was awake after their long flight.
Back in the early 90's a FedEx flight from back east to LAX was 150 miles
or so west of LAX when they finally awoke! DOH!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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k, reilly, fair enough, but i'd like to ask anyone here if they ever remember a jetliner shining like that through the sunset smog, looking like it has an afterburner going full blast. seems like we ought to have seen a lot like that. like you say, that "explanation" page seems very neatly done.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
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It will be interesting to see how or whether this question is ever resolved.
However to me there is an underlying issue here that is much more interesting, having to do with how people treat each other regarding attempts to resolve a mystery.
There are much bigger and more important mysteries in the world that beg for understanding.
The likelihood of our coming to understanding is greatly reduced by people generating lots of rude and mutually disrespectful noise in the face of those trying to reason about uncertainties.
I realize that some of this passion is generated in response to those who have intentionally lied and cheated. Those people do need to be called to accounts in no uncertain terms. However identifying them is made all the more difficult when there is a lot of disrespectful noise being generated.
Perhaps we can develop a realization that those generating disrespectful noise are self-identifying themselves.
The bigger challenge is learning to work better together creating a shared communication environment characterized by mutual respect. I think that probably offers an improved path to unraveling the web of mysteries.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
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Tom C.,
This is actually a very good exercise.
We are witnessing real time disinfo and real time good info. We are seeing who can work through this jungle of evidence, and who can't. We are seeing a very clear distinction and lining up on different sides of the fence.
If we can't prove the truth of this event, then there is very little we can ever prove.
But I know we can prove it.
I have.
When I first made those stereograms, I was already to eat my words if they showed the "contrail" coming toward the coast and coming more toward the observer. I have had egg on my face before. I can stick my tail between my legs, and admit when I'm wrong. I have done it before. I can admit when I'm wrong. Some people can't, even with overwhelming evidence. Pretty sad really.
I knew going into making the stereograms that it looked like the exhaust/vapor plume was lit from behind, that is why I pushed ahead to do it. But I also knew if the stereograms showed it coming toward the coast and toward the observer then I was wrong, and I would have to admit that I was wrong. But they CLEARLY show the exhuast/vapor plume going up steeply and leaning to the W - WNW. I have already shown colleagues and they can easily see it too.
I can even make a set of stereograms from images even more separated and really exaggerate the parallax and these will show it even more. I can do that. But the ones I've made already show it easily and are very good.
Then the massive exhaust/vapor plume was right where I said it would be and easily identifiable in the GOES satellite image and grows toward the W - WNW even in those series of images. The shape and features in the vertical GOES satellite, matches with the oblique details in the massive exhaust/vapor plume taken by the helicopter. I can show this.
It really is not hard to do.
I will post up some from my PPT when I can. Needs to go through some peer review first.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
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" a jetliner shining like that through the sunset smog,"
For the viewer, the sun has already set. The jetliner is still in full sunset and reflecting the full brightness of the sun. Go to the beach behind LAX and watch the planes coming in from Asia and Hawaii just after sunset. You will see reflections like this.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Nov 16, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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Hey Klimmer,
From the right angle, El Capitan appears flat and Half Dome is whole.
You have firmly established that from you viewpoint, the helicopter video shows a rocket trail or what could be a rocket trail. Along with others, I think it looks like a jet contrail. We disagree. We perceive that video differently. I am fine with that. You have the right to argue however you want.
But if we wanted to try and find some agreement, how could we do that? I could abandon my perceptions and agree that you are correct. You could abandon your perceptions and trust our judgements. Or.... couldn't we walk around it, so to speak and look at it from as many angles as possible? Are there other ways we could try and agree on what we see or is it a hopeless condition?
If you kept arguing that El Capitan was flat and kept showing me the same picture of a flat spot on top, over and over with mathematical calculations and such, I would be curious at first, just wondering if you are going to inform me of something interesting. But quickly it becomes boring and all I wonder about is your thought process. That probably sounds like an insult, but I do not mean it that way. You do not seem like a stupid person to me.
From your perspective, I suppose the better analogy is that you keep showing me photos of the face of El Capitan, but I argue that it is only 20 feet high. But from a single photo, single view, why shouldn't I argue however I think?
I think there might be some fundamental differences in our assumptions or basic thought processes that make it obvious to you that the video showed a rocket and obvious to others that it was a jet contrail. It seems obvious to me to look at the event from different locations and in different ways. It seems obvious to you to study the video tape in greater detail and to get opinions from alternate press sources who also study the video tape in great detail. Or so it seems.
Paul
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
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3D is 3D.
I can decrease the effect by using images than are closer.
I can increase the effect by using images that are further apart and separated.
But they will never lie about depth of perception and the way things are. It will only enhance the depth of field.
The base of the plume is closer to the observer, and the tip of the exhaust is further away leaning toward the W - WNW.
It is as simple as that.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 16, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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parallax error
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 16, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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I can increase the effect by using images that are further apart and separated.
But they will never lie about depth of perception and the way things are. It will only enhance the depth of field.
Use this image.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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Gib auf, du hast keine chance, Klimmer! Lass es uns beenden! Es ist einfacher fur dich, viel einfacher. Du wirst sehen, es ist gleich vorbei.
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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Nov 16, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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Nov 16, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
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By the way, the 3D stereoscope effect is caused by a slight camera rotation between the moments when the two pictures were taken.
Carry on.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 16, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
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so has it been decided?
was it 808 or that ups plane?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 16, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
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was it 808 or that ups plane?
Neither. But it wasn't a Chinese or US missile, either. One group of posters to this thread has definitively proved it was not a plane, while the other group has definitively proved it was not a missile.
So, clearly, it must have been an alien spacecraft. Perhaps the Reptile people came back to pick up their agent (Dick Cheney), or maybe it was the green aliens with oval-shaped heads here to pick up a few unsuspecting Enquirer readers for breeding purposes.
But definitely a spacecraft.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 16, 2010 - 04:44pm PT
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It was an alien spaceship launched from a Chinese sub to rendezvous with visiting Reptilians in the mothership.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
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I think UPS902 (white line below) is a better fit. AWE808 is the red line.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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"As the German soldier stabs Mellish to death, he says: "Gib' auf, du hast keine
Chance! Lass' es uns beenden! Es ist einfacher für dich, viel einfacher. Du
wirst sehen, es ist gleich vorbei." This translates: "Give up, you don't stand a
chance! Let's end this here! It will be easier for you, ...
So Mono,
Are you threatening me?
You guys do not understand parallax error. Yes it increases the real effect.
Example:
Vertical stereo pair of the Grand Canyon from 2 images in the flight line taken with 70% overlap. Shows the Grand Canyon is indeed a 3D canyon and that the Grand Canyon is pretty deep.
Another vertical stereo pair of the Grand Canyon from 2 images in the flight line taken with 50% overlap, meaning the consecutive images are further apart. Shows the Grand Canyon is now really deep. This is vertical exaggeration. This is exaggerated parallax error. We know that the Grand Canyon is not that deep, however, it has increased the real effect. It hasn't decreased it. It hasn't turned the Grand Canyon into a Mountain, and inside out.
Get real.
You guys are in over your head. It is as simple as that. Yes, anyone can do it just as I have, and it is pissing you guys off to know that you are wrong. I can easily see that.
This contrail from a jet has been debunked a long time ago.
It is a fired off missile going away from California upward at a steep angle to the W - WNW.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
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It was to demonstrate the hopelessness of your task and stoke your paranoia.
You can take hope in the final outcome though, the german soldier (who was released from capture earlier by Tom Hanks, instead of executing) was killed in the final scenes.
I'd post the pic from Saving Private Ryan but it's too grotesque.
Check with the trig teacher or the physics students you teach at your school before continuing on.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 05:33pm PT
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where are the reports of what looks like a missile that should have come from other vantage points in the LA area?
There are no other reports.
Don't-ch-ya know anything about LA?
The rest of the town was busy freshening up their makeup for the night ....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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Glad that got cleared up!
Glenn, I don't think that you responded to the simple question: where are the reports of what looks like a missile that should have come from other vantage points in the LA area?
Mike,
The main-mass of the missile exhaust/vapor plume was over 150+ miles away. The best view at the time was the KCAL helicopter viewing and filming it from altitude. At times he even zoomed into the top portion of the plume. The only reason we saw those flashes of light coming from the missile rocket engine (the flame pointing in our direction) was for the fact that he was filming and zooming in from such a far away vantage.
The top of the missile exhaust is about 177+ miles away. The only reason anyone saw something was for the fact that it went soooo high and the top portion of the missile exhaust/vapor plume was over 150,000+ feet high and then was goldenly back-lit by the Sun that had already set from our vantage point on the ground.
It is pretty simple really.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
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So Klimmer, are you saying those on the ground in Long Beach like Rick Warren did not think it was a missile?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 16, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
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The KCBS news helicopter flew through a wormhole into a parallel universe. The missile launch occurred in that universe, as seen in their video. It was not visible to anyone else and did not appear on the FAA or military radar screens because it did not occur in this universe.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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It was seen right around Happy Hour.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
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China "Mystery Missile" off L.A. - Ret. General "It was a missile" Michio Kaku "It was an illusion"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50ArWaJZ-uA
I like PhD Michio Kaku, but here he is really wrong.
I hope he comes around to the truth and admits he is wrong when it is overwhelming proved. That will not be good for his reputation.
We have RADAR showing a jet? Bull Dung.
Kaku hands out sooo many lies in just a few short minutes it is hard to keep track. Sooo much disinfo. Sad when they trot out scientists on the government dole. What does he have a government grant proposal that needs to be approved or re-approved? Time to kick back a favor?
Stereo vision sets the truth free.
GOES satellite images during the event sets the truth free.
Trigonometry sets the truth free.
The General is absolutely correct.
I didn't write the below, just copying it from the video post. He is a little too harsh on PhD Michio Kaku. I would just claim Kaku is having brain farts. Just a bad day. Drank the Kool-aid, or whatever works to excuse himself. Too funny.
ThirdPartyGuiltTrip — November 12, 2010 — China {97% chance} test fired an ICBM 35 miles off the coast of Los Angeles as a show of strength, direct repudiation of the U.S. meddling in the South China Sea, on the heels of The Feds announcement of devaluing the USD, all while our fearless 'leader' 'obama' and Hitler-y Clinton were overseas, &, it was just a beautiful sunset, perfect for launching missiles. I saw the smoke column my self while walking - It was not 'an illusion'. So, let's compare these 2 contradicting viewpoints - A.) Ret. General Tom Micinerney "It was a missile" B.) Michio Kaku "It was an optical illusion" Just thought I'd compare these two clips, too not only point out that it was completely obvious a missile 35 miles off the Coast of Los Angeles, but that Michi Kaku, a theoretical physicist has lost all credibility. So, we have a credible Ret. General and former fighter pilot, Ret. General Tom Micinerney vs. the idiotic, Zero credibility junk science Big Bang/String Theory/Dark Matter/Energy pusher Michio Kaku. CONTRADICTIONS & LIES ------------------------------<wbr>------------- Michio Kaku contradicts himself 3 times in this clip. 1.) 1:54 He refers to the object as a rocket. An ICBM is guided rocket yes, but he knows full well that ICBM's don't have 'booster rockets' attached to the side. No one was claiming that this was a space shuttle launch. Moreover, you can clearly see the single, burning halo on that back of this object, indicating a single engine. 2.) 2:10 "It's going in the wrong direction" We NEVER fire missiles headed towards the West!?!?! Yet, this completely absolves his own argument - If this object is coming towards us, {East to West} is Kaku claiming that this 'plane' took off from the surface of the Pacific Ocean, based on the path of this so-called 'contrail' ??? {Maybe they were skimming the water to do some fly fishing before NEVER LANDING at LAX} If it was traveling east to West, why didn't it land at LAX? What flight was it? What airline? 3.) 3:17 "We see no evidence of a fast moving object" Really Michio? What's that on the f*#kin screen behind you??? Do we not ALL "see a fast moving object" right nex to Kaku's head? Is this not "video evidence"? Besides, if it had stealth capability or was being covered-up by the military, how accurate would those radar records be? Also, if this were a commercial flight, it has yet to be ID'd, flight number, airline, ect. Other blatant and obvious f*#k-ups from Kaku... 2:00 He keeps calling it a 'contrail' when it has a clear and obvious 'corkscrew' pattern indicating a rocket or... a missile. 'Contrails', as opposed to 'chemtrails' linger for 15-20 minutes maximum, this one was there for over an hour. Sorry pal, wrong again! 1:54 "The object is no accelerating" Really Michio? The how the FOCK is it rocketing into the stratosphere? 2:07 "Ballistic missiles never change course" uhh... yeah they do retard. Please see the ret. General @ 0:44 "meaning that the guidance system has now kicked in" ICBM's are 'guided missiles' dumbass!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
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From KCBS the day after they filmed the contrail:
The video of what looks for all the world like the contrail of a missile was shot Monday evening by KCBS cameraman Gil Leyvas from a news helicopter over Los Angeles.
"I saw a big plume coming up, rising from looked like beyond the horizon and it continued to grow," Leyvas said.
He zoomed his camera in and stayed on it for about 10 minutes. To him it looked like an incoming missile.
"It was unique. It was moving," he said. "It was growing in the sky."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/11/10/earlyshow/main7040379.shtml
If Leyvas spent 10 minutes videotaping it, why did they release only a few seconds worth? Where are the other 9 1/2 minutes of video? Why don't they release them?
Klimmer tells us that we have to give credit to Leyvas account because he is an expert with many years of experience and he was there and we were not.
Leyvas saw it personally and in stereo vision (with his own two eyes) and he says it looked like an incoming missile. Compare this to Klimmer's claim that his stereograms show the "missile" arcing away towards the NW. This is the opposite of what Leyvas says.
Either Leyvas' natural stereo vision wasn't working or Klimmer's homemade stereograms are defective.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
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I swore off this dumb thread, but I can't help myself I guess.
LOL.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:24pm PT
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You should really consider the possibility that you aren't as smart as you think your are.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:32pm PT
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I'd better take a break, or I'll bust a gut.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
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News Flash just in.
Man ran out of gas on the #405 on the date questioned and took this picture.
Proves Klimmer is right. So now ends the story and now I can have my life back.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
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Mike,
You are misrepresenting what I said again. You do this often. How come? Many people saw it and many people said it was a missile.
I do think the KCAL helicopter had the best viewing seat in the house. Are you going to dispute this? And the cameraman never said it was coming toward the coast.
I'm in complete agreement with the General . . . he knows what he is talking about and he isn't afraid to say so. A true American.
Ret. General Tom Micinerney "It was a missile" and he even explains the evidence that is so clearly seen just like I do. Pay attention to the coarse correction statement. This is critical. You can see it in the oblique images of the missile exhaust/vapor plume and you can see the course correction in the verticalish GOES satellite images also. Bingo.
China "Mystery Missile" off L.A. - Ret. General "It was a missile" Michio Kaku "It was an illusion"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50ArWaJZ-uA
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:47pm PT
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Show us your trig Klimmer.
With two stationary views, one from Long Beach and one from LAX, it's a very simple problem to determine whether the missile has been fired towards the US or away.
We even know Rick Warren's location in Long Beach if it matters.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
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Mono,
You haven't shown where that image came from.
How can we be sure it isn't made up crap like you provided before?
I'm using images I know where they are from, and that they are indeed from 11-8-10.
Show me an exact location perspective from 11-8-10 that hasn't been doctored, and we can use it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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And the cameraman never said it was coming toward the coast.
He said that it looked like an incoming missile. An incoming missile is one coming towards him. He was over the coast. So he is saying that the missle was coming towards the coast.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
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The locations are very clear Klimmer.
I'll post them.
And really Klimmer, the exact locations do not matter if you know your right hand from your left hand.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
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Provide the quote and source.
I can provide his words regarding his actual description.
You first.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Nov 16, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
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I like PhD Michio Kaku, but here he is really wrong.
I hope he comes around to the truth and admits he is wrong when it is overwhelming proved. That will not be good for his reputation.
Pot, kettle...doh!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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This is the best thread on SuperTopo .....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 16, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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The missile was transporting Elvis (who had been hiding in a bowling alley) to a secret colony on Mercury. It was funded by Castro who had paid Elvis to shoot Kennedy- the CIA had finally discovered the conspiracy and were closing in on him.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 16, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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1. ICBMs are by definition intercontinental - they aren't launched from submarines.
2. IRBMs, cruise missiles and torpedoes are launched from submarines.
3. Why would China, if it had the ability, launch an IRBM from a submarine 60 km off Los Angeles? (Not admitting in the slightest that there's any truth to such fantasies.) The US military is well aware that China has submarines able to do such things, and it doesn't "prove" anything. If any submarine really did launch such a missile, it would likely lead to immediate retaliation. The reaction times are too short to take a chance that it isn't hostile.
4. A missile launch from an identified foreign submarine in or close to US territorial waters would likely be treated as casus belli.
5. The chances that the US military doesn't know where all Chinese, Russian and other foreign submarines are, at all times, seem rather slim. You can hide them for a while, but if they move any distance, which eventually they must, they can be found.
Like klimmer's other fantasies, the reason that the government response to the various allegations isn't particularly consistent is that there is no story to tell. Nothing happened.
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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1. ICBMs are by definition intercontinental - they aren't launched from submarines.
You sure about that?
Agree with everything else.
g
EDIT: MH is right. By definition, an ICBM goes from continent to continent. Ergo, if it's launched at sea, it can't be an ICBM.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Nov 16, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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Okay. So far the military (who can track a 6 inch bolt floating around in orbit, supposedly) has no press release on this.
It can only mean that the truth is something so weird and so embarrassing that no one would believe it. Couldn't even build a lie around it.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 09:32pm PT
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Ok, Klimmer, For the location of Rick Warren's pics see the pic below:
Rick Warren's view location in Long Beach is in the rough area of the bottom of the red line below.
The tall building in the center of the upper pic is at the top of the red line below.
This line roughly points in the direction you have identified as the source of the launch.
This agrees with this Google building reconstruction:
For the second view of the missile:
This is a webcam#2 shot from here.
The current view is:
It overlooks runway 25R at LAX.
Now really, Klimmer, I think we can agree all we need to do is start with a diagram like this where the red line is sourced from LAX and the yellow is Long Beach and they meet at the launch point.
By looking at the two pics below, can we agree that the webcam shot is taken from a location roughly northwest of Rick Warren's location, and they are the same event?
So, are we in basic agreement of these observations, Klimmer?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 16, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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Provide the quote and source.
I can provide his words regarding his actual description.
Link to KCBS story previously provided.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
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I'm disappointed.
I thought all you guys are scientists.
Ya can't seem to solve this thing.
National Enquirer is coming out with the full story and the truth.
You guys are worthless .....
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:24am PT
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not to mention a retired general saying he was positive 100% that it was a sub luanch.... Was he there or did he see the same video everyone else saw?
If he was an Admiral, his opinion might carry some weight.
I still say, show me a pitcure or a video of anything launched from a sub,
that leaves even remotely that amount of exhaust trail.
to think that the Chinese would lauch a missile from a sub, somewhere near our coast, to flex their muscles or make some statement is pretty laughable. If that was the case, they would have wanted us to know it was them.
They would have done it off their coast and demonstrated the range and show that we could be reached. They would never tip their hand that they were in our coastal waters with a sub and then launch a missile so we could find them. That is totally ridiculous.
There is no way any missile could ever be launched by accident.
Completely preposterous. There are so many thing that have to happen before a missile is even capable of being launched, like being fueled for starters. No one can accidentally hit "the button" or anything like that.
The sub has to be at the proper depth and speed, the bay door have to be opened etc. etc. It's simply not possible for one person to launch a missile on accident or on purpose.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:26am PT
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Someone explain to me how this series of stills photographed from a fixed location don't at the very least completely demolish any notion of an object headed on a NW trajectory?
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:35am PT
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Question: Does the fact that Klimmer is a fundamentalist christian make any difference here?
Answer: This handy-dandy graphic demonstrates (sadly) that the Answer is "you bet!" Unfortunately Klimmer uses the "I know the answer" approach.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:41am PT
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Klimmer uses the "I know the answer" approach science.
Just like you.
You're all just guessing and making up sh'it calling it theory.
Pure fuking guessing and speculating.
Non of you know sh'it, except trying to refute each others sh'it ....
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:44am PT
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In this case, Klimmer's religion has become a bottomless pit that has sucked every semblance of intellect from his mind, creating a prism through which reality is bent and twisted to conform to his preconceived notions.
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:44am PT
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Question: How does Werner fit into this picture?
Answer: Of course Werner takes the "I know the Answer" approach to a new level, never before seen in the Climbing Universe.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:45am PT
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Pure fuking guessing and speculating
Not all speculation is equal.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:49am PT
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...and not all speculums reveal the same secrets.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:51am PT
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Yeah
A big wild guess or an educated guess.
Still it's guessing.
Oooohhhh I hit a nerve on their god called "Science"
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 02:10am PT
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i used to live in an apartment in NYC with those white hexagonal tiles, such a classical look for buildings put up I believe just after WWII.
You'd sit there looking at those tiles, and play games, like crossing your eyes and letting them relax back to normal, but at some point you'd "lock" on those tiles and the floor would be a whole lot closer! It's because of the way you learn to use stereopsis, which is so second nature you don't actually know what you are doing.
For your eyes, located about 10 cm apart, if you're normal you're "normal" you can resolve horizontal disparities of 2.3 minutes of arc, that's 2.3/60 degrees = 0.38ş = 0.7 milliradians... that's out to about 150 meters depth of field... and if you have good skillz, 30 arcseconds... that's out to about 700 m...
you use a lot of other 3D queues to get around in the world, not depending on stereopsis alone to reconstruct what you see...
Depending on the way the pictures are taken, the orientation of the camera with respect to the scene for both shots, there are different ways of reconstructing in 3D... now to get an accurate depiction of the scene a lot of care must be taken to understand the location of the cameras and their orientations... otherwise you don't know what you are seeing, and it isn't sufficient to rely on just your innate ability to process the scene, you actually perceive things very differently in many cases than what is actually there, just like looking at my bathroom floor in NYC.
Just how could the reconstruction be incorrect?
The first issue is the depth-of-field, which is the ability to tell how far away something is... the formula I provided above:
D = S / (1/tanΘ1 - 1/tanΘ2)
the distance the object appears away from us, D is given in terms of the separation of the two views, S and the angles from those views to the object, Θ1 and Θ2.
if S is small compared to D then the angles are almost equal to 90ş
Here we're talking about Θ ≈ 90ş where the tangent starts to get very large... the point is that the largeness of the tangent of one angle has to be subtracted from the largeness of the tangent of the other angle, to get a small number. If there is a small error in the measurement of the angles, then there is a large error in the determination of D the distance to the object.
Let's take klimmer's example, he is trying to measure something roughly 180 miles, let's say that the pictures were taken 1 mile apart? then the difference in the tangents is:
1/tanΘ1 - 1/tanΘ2 = 1/180
The tangent of the angles: tanΘ = sqrt(180^2 + 0.5^2)/0.5 ≈ 360
klimmer knows that tan(˝π + δ) ≈ -1/δ
where δ is the small angle difference from 90ş (=˝π radians).
In this example δ = 1/360 = 0.003 radians, which is small...
SO WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS?
if there is an error in the determination in the angle, it can badly throw off our estimation of the distance:
D ≈ 0.5*S/δ
the percentage error in the distance D is the same as the percentage error in the angle δ,
for δ = 0.003 radians this corresponds to 2 pixels on klimmer's images...
If klimmer cannot do better than 1 pixel in resolution, he has a 50% error possible in the angular determination, the distance is then measured to 180 miles ± 90 miles
so it wouldn't be outrageous if parts of the picture were wildly displaced from other parts due to the angular errors that are an intrinsic property of his image. He can't do better, the information is not there.
On top of that, the atmosphere refracts (the density near the ground is higher than the density far above) and that will lead to optical distortions.
Finally, your perception of the confusion in the depth due to stereopsis doesn't help, you will construct an image, based on other queues, but just how that corresponds to reality is pretty arbitrary.
This all gets a lot worse if the two images are taken closer than my presumption of 1 mile... and other problems having to do with the exact position that the two images are taken with respect to the object make things worse, the case I considered above is the most favorable. I don't assume that the cameras are moving around during the actual image production, but that is also possible in a helicopter, depending on how the cameras are mounted.
And I could also have made a mistake in my calculation. The reason I present it here is so that others can reproduce it independently, and check... this is something klimmer has not done, and he has not provided important information regarding where the pictures were made, the location of the pictures, so the error could be a lot larger in the stereoscopic reconstruction than I have calculated above.
klimmer can pick my argument apart if it is wrong. hopefully he will do it by calculation and not rhetoric. basically, he does not have sufficient angular resolution in his images to conclude much about the distance from the helicopter to the object, certainly the distance determination to not better than 50% of that distance, and that really means he cannot support the claims he has made regarding the location of the object based on his stereoscopic arguments.
[EDIT] this post was above Shack's... now it's below... I needed to make some corrections...
[second EDIT] had some typos which I corrected, too bad Mike Bolte opted out, I could use his critical eye...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 02:35am PT
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Yeah
A big wild guess or an educated guess.
Still it's guessing.
But you don't know that. It's just a wild uneducated guess you pulled out of your ass.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 02:38am PT
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Ed's and Monolith's posts make this thread worth reading.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 17, 2010 - 02:47am PT
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But they CLEARLY show the exhuast/vapor plume going up steeply and leaning to the W - WNW. I have already shown colleagues and they can easily see it too.
Can they see your ark on the moon too?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 17, 2010 - 02:50am PT
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Trust a bunch of male climbers to do 600 posts on whether someone's missile got up or not. Klimmer and the right wing nutbars really seem to have major Freudian issues.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 03:10am PT
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watch out for those asian missiles!
ST threads are NOT about navel gazing
(but just a little more south...)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:19am PT
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China "Mystery Missile" off L.A. - Ret. General "It was a missile" Michio Kaku "It was an illusion"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50ArWaJZ-uA
Ret. General Tom Micinerney "It was a missile"
vs.
PhD Michio Kaku "It was an optical illusion"
In the General's corner we have:
Many years of experience firing off and observing missiles
He clearly also sees the missile head upward and to the W - WNW
He mentions the change in direction when the guidance system kicks in
Stereo vision sets the truth free.
GOES satellite images during the event sets the truth free.
Trigonometry sets the truth free.
In other words, lots of empirical evidence. It's testable!
In PhD Michio Kaku's corner we have:
"It was an optical illusion"
Swamp Gas.
Massive amounts of disinfo.
So SuperTopians choose your sides. You can't stand on the fence. Be brave and make a stand. Only one is right . . .
I'm with the general and science.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:40am PT
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But apparently not on the side of reality unless you can explain away this:
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:19am PT
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Can't trust that the image(s) have not been tampered with.
Those images come from:
http://contrailscience.com/
It is a serious disinfo website.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 09:43am PT
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ah, the occupations of the idle. ed, i'm starting to understand why it's taking so long for that thing to ignite. (ducking)
checking some of this a little, surprisingly no reference in either the ventura or santa barbara newspapers. whatever the event was, there would have been an instant local angle, either confirming or denying it. did graniteclimber threaten to out more wives?
then i notice the CBS station hunts up old robert ellsworth, who doesn't seem to think it's an airplane either. he assures them it isn't a tomahawk missile, which was probably the only thing they showed him when he was assistant secretary of defense 40 years ago. interesting that in all of southern california they couldn't get anyone a little less creaky to go on camera.
ellsworth conjectured that it was done by our people to show china how tough we are during some kind of obama visit. i love it when a president visits los angeles, always a joyous event marked by complete gridlock from LAX to beverly hills. the visit may be a move to affect their GNP so our manufactured goods can begin to compete.
it takes true grit to venture out 30 miles, far into international waters. next marines will be paddling their surfboards a little too far out from san onofre, dissing al quaeda out loud, braving raghead sharks.
one item in favor of the missile argument. i don't know what you aero geniuses call it, but i would call it a thrust bend. a contrail's gonna be straight. there's a dogleg in the track here, and it's not coming from a crosswind, it's coming because the little gremlin who pilots the missile decided to readjust the thrust slightly shortly after the launch. this looks pretty obvious.
reference the first pic here from yet another blogxpert:
http://spacefellowship.com/news/art23876/it-s-a-bird-it-s-a-missile-it-s-an-airplane-.html
------------
hey, this moaf is up to nearly 600 in a week. what's the speed record?
my german isn't the greatest, but:
Gib auf, du hast keine chance, Klimmer! Lass es uns beenden! Es ist einfacher fur dich, viel einfacher. Du wirst sehen, es ist gleich vorbei.
"give up, you don't have a chance, klimmer! let's end it! it's simple for you, very simple. you will see, it's all over."
doesn't sound like much of a threat to me. klimmer, does your wife work?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 10:28am PT
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tony, it's not as difficult as it looks... the math upstairs ^
(which still might need some correction)
klimmer has reverted to making this a question of belief, and is not confronting the limitations of his understanding, which is a sad thing for a science teacher
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 10:34am PT
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That's exactly right Werner, when Klimmer says it was going WNW, we can refute his assertion and show proof positive that is not the case, and that the 'missile' is going more or less in the opposite direction.
Since Klimmer is smart enough to know his only recourse is 'the pics are fake', there's nothing to do except note the obvious.
The LAX webcam shows the object 'rising' and going to the 'left', as represented by the 3D segment in the diagram below. This shows the 'missile' can't possibly be going WNW.
If you don't agree Klimmer, show us your trig. It's so simple right?
But of course you will just nitpic, then throw it all out as 'untrustable'.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 10:58am PT
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i know all about sines, cosines and tangents, ed. i also know about cotangents, secants and cosecants. i'm so smart i know about coelacanths and their wives, co-coelacanths. but what nobody learns unless they get into an engineering program somewhere is what these suckers are used for off the page of a high school geometry book.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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or perhaps, tony, in trying to understand the world around us... everyday...
can you imagine living without the ability to read, it's possible, but we'd miss much.
Understanding the limits of what you can know from observation is the most important thing you can learn in terms of doing an experiment or making an observation. Once you are convinced that you can actually make that measurement, then you can go on to trying to understand what it is telling you. But if you find you have poor information, you wouldn't expect to learn much from it in terms of understanding.
klimmer seems to fight shouting the creed "seeing is believing!" but he actually doesn't understand what he is seeing... in my opinion based on my calculational estimates.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 11:05am PT
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by the way, the second photo in that blogxpert link i gave purports to show the contrail in a pic from a stationary satellite. pretty damn good photo for stuff that's disappearing in the sunset.
ed, you havta understand that people going through the catholic school system have three career choices if they're looking beyond an undergraduate degree: doctor, lawyer, or priest. if you want to study science, you study biology. biology was way too messy for me.
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 17, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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Question: Who is winning on this thread?
Answer: Klimmer! He has demonstrated over and over again that he has at best a weak understanding of the scientific method, only knows middle school mathematics and has a poor grasp of logic. Further, he has shown himself to be intellectually dishonest. Posters who disagree are labeled "dishonest debunkers". Michio Kaku, formerly used by Klimmer as an example of a smart, open minded scientist, overnight becomes a government paid stooge when he disagrees with the Klimmer missile obsession. An excellent site with many interesting photos and analysis is dismissed as disinformation simply because the facts there are not consistent with the Klimmer delusions. So, klimmer is a idiot! There is no question about that. Furthermore, there is no fact or argument that will ever change his mind. Everything will be dismissed as disinformation.
Yet, he has admirably achieved his real goal of engaging real scientists! Ed H. and Mike B. and other well known scientists are responding directly to his idiot posts and apparently taking him seriously. So, he wins! Fortunately, this does not mean everyone else loses. Everyone is fulfilling some need through participating.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
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ah, mister answers, another klimmer-specific harrasser who doesn't know the difference between a friend and a piton. klim, they do spend a lot of money on you.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
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You guys are laugh out loud funny.
I've shown you how easy it is.
You drank the cool-aid without checking it out first, and have done all kinds of disinfo and misguidance to prove nothing. And then went on the ad hominem attack raging lunatic mode. Yes, that is dishonest. Very dishonest.
I've checked it. I was ready to eat my words. And to apologize and to admit I was wrong, but I'm not. I know I don't have too. It's gonna be very embarrassing for many of you.
I even went ahead and made even more stereograms from the images in the helicopter flight line that are even further apart to really make the paralax depth of field extreme, and it shows the exhaust/vapor plume easily going upward to the W - WNW just as I said it was going. It won't lie. It won't turn the image inside out. Stereograms will not turn the Grand Canyon into a Mountain.
Retired General Tom Micinerney agrees, "It was a missile."
Even PhD Kaku says it looks like it is going upward and toward the NW in the FOX video first and clearly admits this, then he jumps on the "optical illusion" bandwagon. He was pretty smart to say what it looks like first, so that when it is overwhelmingly proven to be doing what it actually looks like it is doing, he can save face and say, "Well, it looked like that from the beginning and I should have stuck with that first impression." He has given himself an out. You guys have not. Hey, I already said I like PhD Kaku, but sometimes even PhDs can go wrong, very wrong. But he gave himself an out.
Stereograms don't lie, they just enhance the truth that the depth of field already shows.
Then looking at all the GOES images, there it is in full glory and climbing and building toward the W - WNW, clear as can be, right where I said it should be. The exhaust/vapor plume even shows the guidance correction trail in the exhaust/vapor plume from the vertical view and the helicopter shots show it from the oblique.
It was that simple.
And the trig was simple too. Yes, the tip-top end of the exhaust/vapor plume goes over 156,000+ feet.
Twas a missile.
Edit:
Good, well done and simple photogrammetry can prove the real truth of many things. This whole missile off of L.A. vs. jet contrail phenomenon has been the perfect example to illustrate this, and it shows how easy it really is when done honestly. I went down the wrong track for a moment, no thanks to Mono, turned around with good imagery and got onto proving it.
That's how it works.
Now with the original video shot by KCAL, and the very clear original GOES images in high resolution, it would be even easier. It would be great to get all of that, and do the same process again just for better resolution and higher quality images. But it will not change the truth of what is already known.
It was a missile.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
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Yet, he has admirably achieved his real goal of engaging real scientists! Ed H. and Mike B. and other well known scientists are responding directly to his idiot posts and apparently taking him seriously. So, he wins! Fortunately, this does not mean everyone else loses. Everyone is fulfilling some need through participating.
It's epic.
A Troll of ginormous proportions
It's almost....... uh.... dare I say.... a Ragmeat troll.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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um, i felch dead people.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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Threads about fantasy, faith and fuking definitely get the most posts.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
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Prep period.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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If the trig was simple, and we are out of our league Klimmer, then surely you can show us your trig based on the stationary views.
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Nov 17, 2010 - 02:14pm PT
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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Nice!
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 17, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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Love it, Zander!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
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Zander solved it.
It's all over now.
You can all go home now.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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can you prove anything ive said wrong????
Who is Ive? Is this one of the Reptilian commanders in the mothership?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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Klimmer: Can't trust that the image(s) have not been tampered with.
Those images come from:
http://contrailscience.com/
It is a serious disinfo website.
You can't be serious. Those images are tampered with? Really? And a 'disinfo' site? You mean a site that doesn't share your views. A 'disinfo' site in the same way NIST and the CDC are all about 'disinfo' no doubt. This just gets more laughable by the page.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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Turn off your brain and use your eyes:
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
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Funny, Klimmer uses the satelite loop that is also on the site he considers disinfo.
Now explain to us again Klimmer, why one of those two clouds that pop up is a missile launch and the other is not?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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Is this horse dead yet?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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Mono et al.,
Easy. The GOES loop I did borrow, but it was also clearly marked at the bottom as done by someone else from the TOP SECRET forum community, and they were willing to put their user name on it. This person would be sticking their neck out there and it would be harder to fake them and risk being discovered and ruining their reputation.
I did say I was at first hesitant to use them and I mentioned "if we assume that they are correct" . . . since I didn't do the work nor did I put the time stamps on them. But I went for it, and used them and discovered my drawn azimuth went right to the massive plume. Visually analyzing those series of GOES images I could clearly see everything the massive exhaust/vapor plume was doing as seen from an oblique view from the helicopter. Perfect match.
I knew then they were good to go. If they were not willing to get rid of the smoking gun, then they are probably safe to use. They didn't fake it, or switch it, or tamper with it in anyway that I can tell.
I will just have to assume that the time stamps are correct.
It would be nice to get the original high resolution GOES for the same time, same event, same region etc. I would be more than willing to do it again with better GOES image quality for that same exact period of time and day. I know what is there. Easy to see. Easy to compare.
The second cloud mass is behind the towering and leaning exhaust/vapor plume at lower altitudes. From L.A. they were not visible. They were probably below the horizon from the perspective of the helicopter. Keep in mind that it goes up to 156,000+ feet into the atmosphere. Easily visible from L.A.
The video footage from KCAL I can be very sure about.
That is all you really need to prove it.
KCAL images turned into stereograms show it clearly ascending at a steep angle to the W - WNW and leaning away from the coast in said direction and back-lit by the setting Sun. Easy. No tricks of any kind. The power of 3D viewing. Making stereograms with extreme effect (further separated images of the exhaust/vapor plume) only enhances the depth of field and proves it even easier.
Q: Is the massive exhaust/vapor plume coming toward the coast or going away from the coast?
A: Going away from the coast at a steep lean W - WNW.
Q: Is the massive base at or near the ocean water surface closer to the viewer above Long Beach Harbor than the very tip-top, or further away?
A: The massive base of the exhaust/vapor plume is closer to the viewer, and the top is much further away. Much further away.
Q: Is the massive exhaust/vapor plume lit from underneath and off to the side, or from behind and off to the side by the Sun?
A: Lit from behind. The sides are brighter and the center of the column is darker. It is clearly back-lit, ascending upward and leaning severely to the W - WNW.
I know that this information is very upsetting to some of you, but the story on the news that it is all just a jet contrail is very wrong. Easily proven wrong. I'm sure it is very embarrassing to the DoD/Pentagon. Because they already said they didn't do it. Then who did? Either way it is still embarrassing.
By the way, I can't give out his name, but someone that I know in the Navy, when I had someone else carefully ask this contact for me, I got the message back that it is a missile. He doesn't know more than that. I told them to tell him what I knew, and how I knew it. Perhaps we will talk in person. I don't know. Maybe.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
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The little plume above the 'massive base' gets larger the higher you go even though you say it is going away from us.
And you will notice, the top of the 'massive base' matches the top of the clouds to the left.
Klimmer, are the Rick Warren pics fake?
What a stupid question! Of course they are. What was I thinking?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
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Klimmer:
The GOES loop I did borrow, but it was also clearly marked at the bottom as done by someone else from the TOP SECRET forum community, and they were willing to put their user name on it. This person would be sticking their neck out there and it would be harder to fake them and risk being discovered and ruining their reputation.
Mono:
Klimmer, are the Rick Warren pics fake?
What a stupid question. Of course they are. What was I thinking?
Didn't you know? Putting your name on a photo only adds credibility if it supports Klimmer's position.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
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Short Sharp Science: 'Mystery' contrail seen from space
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2010/11/mystery-contrail-seen-from-spa.html
(Image: NASA/NOAA)
The thin white line in this satellite image doesn't look like much, but it was the cause of a lot of confusion and consternation last week when it was attributed to a mysterious missile launch. The image bears out the theory that the contrail was caused by a plane, says a NASA researcher.
Last Monday, a news helicopter flying off the coast of California shot a video showing what appeared to be a missile launch above the Pacific Ocean. Puzzlingly, the Pentagon had no immediate explanation for the observation.
Outside experts pointed out that airplanes can leave contrails that look like missile launches from some angles, and by Wednesday, the Pentagon said a plane was the most likely cause.
The horizontal contrail in this image, taken by the Geostationary Operational Environmental Satellite 11, supports that theory, says Patrick Minnis, a contrail expert at NASA's Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia. "While viewing some blogs, I found that the contrail corresponded remarkably well with flight AWE808, which flew from Hawaii to Phoenix," said Minnis in an article on NASA's website.
Indeed, a contrail forecast assembled by David Duda and Rabindra Palikonda, also at Langley, showed that "conditions were 'ripe' for persistent contrails over the Pacific west of Los Angeles" when the mysterious object was seen, the article says.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
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Maybe because it's real and the others are fake.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
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22 more to go. Klimmer might get spooked. Spooks what spooks?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
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Or yours is fake and the others are real ....
:-)
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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It does jive. Klimmer's cloud is just starting to form. It's the apostrophe shaped cloud to the right of the arrow in Cintune pic.
The clouds change quickly from frame to frame in the animated loops.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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Mono,
See it doesn't matter, I don't have to.
With a very good set of images where the observer is known and the same event is photographed from slightly different perspectives (like from an aircraft) horizontally moving, and more or less perpendicular, we can put them into 3D stereograms very easily. Done it and will do even more.
The problem with the shots you keep trying to use to argue with cannot be turned into stereograms because they are always taken from the same exact vantage point, more than likely with a tripod. Rick sat still, didn't move from one location to another close-by and take the same scene.
Isn't it funny how he doesn't want to use series of images from the KCAL helicopter news footage that overlap that can be used in stereograms? He can do this also. But I'm sure he doesn't want to because the owner of Contrail Science, it isn't based on science at all but disinformation. Hard to trust someone who is lying about the event on 11-8-10.
If there are a series of images of the phenomenon, taken from the same distance roughly from slightly different perspectives, not from completely different perspectives, then we can use them and put them into stereo. It doesn't lie. Just enhances what is already seen so that it is without mistake.
Rick just keeps manipulating 2D images. We can do all kinds of optical illusions with 2D images that have no depth of field.
Look at Escher art. Can't pull off that illusion in a true 3D model.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._C._Escher
Stereo vision helps to uncover the lies and gives us a phenomenal amount of detail that we couldn't get without it. That is why it is so necessary in interpreting for geomorphology, astrogeology, meteorology etc. etc. You can actually tell if something is in front of something else. Or if something is further away than something else. Easy to see in stereograms.
Try walking around with only one eye open. Or try driving a car with only one eye open. Good luck on that. (Don't try this at home! I was just kidding.)
The website owner of Contrail Science only has one eye open, in many different ways.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:47pm PT
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opps 14 more
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
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How is the peer review going? Has the football coach signed off yet? What about the home ec teacher?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:00pm PT
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But I'm sure he doesn't want to because the owner of Contrail Science, it isn't based on science at all but disinformation. Hard to trust someone who is lying about the event on 11-8-10.
You can't argue with the circular logic of this.
"He is lying"
How do you know?
"Because it's wrong"
How do you know he is wrong?
"Because it is disinformation"
How do you know it's disinformation?
"Because he is lying."
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
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Look at Eshler art. Can't pull off that illusion in a true 3D model.
There are plenty of 3D illusions.
It looks like 3D but isn't.
It's not really 3D and it's not really moving.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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The problem with the shots you keep trying to use to argue with cannot be turned into stereograms because they are always taken from the same exact vantage point, more than likely with a tripod. Rick sat still, didn't move from one location to another close-by and take the same scene.
Time indexed from a single point of reference is exactly what you want to analyze an event like this. Your attempts to construct stereograms from a distant event pale in every respect to this simple composite image of the event.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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I don't rely on contrailscience's conclusions Klimmer. I look at the raw pics, which are available elsewhere. Just like you did with the weather loop.
The LAX pic shows the 'missile' going quite a ways downrange. You are stuck in your little tiny cloud.
The LAX pic and Rick Warren's pic are the same event.
Just compare features.
You have to say the pics are fakes. They are totally at odds with your conclusions. They say your missile can't possibly be going WNW.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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"How is the peer review going?"
Pretty good actually. And nice try, it was with other physics and math teachers.
Some knew and it reconfirmed what they already knew.
Some were upset because they didn't want to know that Uncle Sam isn't telling them the truth, and that MSM is continuing the lie. One colleague walked out upset.
The math is simple. Not a problem. Is it exact? No. Some things were very closely approximated. But it isn't radically wrong either.
Overwhelming evidence that is empirical:
Quality eye-witness account that is backed-up by very good video he shot that we can all watch over and over and over again.
3D stereograms made from the quality video confirm that is a missile, heading away from the coast in a W - WNW direction, that anyone can view with a stereoscope for yourself.
GOES satellite images show the same exact exhaust/vapor plume growing and changing and leaning steeply toward the W - WNW.
Simple trig shows the missile went at least over 156,000+ feet in altitude.
It was a missile.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
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So where did it come down?
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
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Hey, hey, hey, calm down, you two. New Shimmer is both a floor wax and a dessert topping!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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Does the stereogram show what kind of missile it was?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
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Let's just assume for a minute that it was a "missle". Now the DOD launches
secret satellites all the time from Vandenburg. They have been
quite forthcoming about the ridiculous Gong Show ICBM interceptor failures.
They have always managed to keep the really secret stuff pretty darn secret
such as the F-117, B-2, and Aurora. If this was such a secret project why
would they have launched it only a few miles from Los Angeles just before sunset?
Please give me one good reason and it better not be
"So Klimmer can drive yous guys nuts."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
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3D stereograms made from the quality video confirm that is a missile, heading away from the coast in a W - WNW direction, that anyone can view with a stereoscope for yourself. Delusional balderdash.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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If this was such a secret project why
would they have launched it only a few miles from Los Angeles just before sunset?
Those Reptilians work in mysterious ways.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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666
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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Oh Hell
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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bennyhinn.org and Pat Robertson will have the answers you seek Klimmer. They are keepers of the truth. Let them be your guide.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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Damn you GC: too fast for me. Nice pic of 666
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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Klimmer, since your presentation passed so easily among your peers, it's time to take it to a physics forum.
Please let us know which one so we can continue our guffawing on a whole new level.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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I got impatient and cheated by getting 665 also. LOL
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
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The reasoning is sound. Take into account the assumptions it is based on. You have to assume that it was a missile to begin with and that any evidence that it was not is lies and disinformation.
If you make those two simple assumptions, you can show that it was a missile.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
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I will bet that Klimmer neglected to tell his fellow high school science teachers
about the mountain of evidence that says it's an airplane.
Probably just showed them a stereogram and said..
"I have proven empirically that it is a missile,
besides the helocopter pilot said it was and he is a "profesional",
and if anyone would know what a missile launch looks like, it would be a news helicopter pilot....
and just ignore the fact that he said "incomming missile"..
and the news even first reported it as a missile, and I believe everything the news people say.
It is always 100% correct and they would never broadcast anything that they hadn't thoroughy vetted.....right?"
Is that pretty close?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
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Yep, he sure didn't show them the LAX pic.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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Let's ease up on Klimmer a bit. As Dr Ed pointed out you don't have to be
very far off in your calcs to come up with snake eyes. I'm still smarting
from the harshin' my 9th grade trig teacher gave me, with kid gloves mind you,
over my 'proof' of a theorem. She invited me up to the board to show
the class and it turned out my 'proof' only worked for the specific situation
I more or less randomly pulled out of my azz. It hurt to slink back to my seat.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
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How could it be a missile if it is still climbing and leaving an exhaust trail after 10 minutes?
Simple question.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
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It's pretty difficult to screw up and go unnoticed the simple geometry of two lines intersecting.
If there's a mistake, many people will point it out.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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Shack, klimmer's answer has been that it is rising steeply and slowly.
That allows him to stay in his little tiny cloud for 10 minutes.
You see, if anything is remotely possible in his world, it becomes a done deal.
But the LAX pic shows considerable downrange motion.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 17, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
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klimmer's answer has been that it is rising steeply and slowly.
Well if it took 10 minutes to get to 175,000 feet (about 33 miles), it would only be traveling about 200 mph.
Anyone ever heard of a missile that goes 200 mph other than an Estes?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
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Yep, Shack, it makes no sense. But you've already shown the technology exists, therefore slam dunk, game over.
BTW, Klimmer, you better change your 240deg from Long Beach to around 254(green line).
Cintune's pic has the islands marked clearly and you can just draw a line from the tip of one island (red line), thru the top of the other to the apostrophe shaped cloud.
Your 240deg line(yellow) lines up more with flight AWE808 and the contrail in the sat pic.
Just trying to save you some embarrassment when you take it to a science forum.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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The sat image ^^^ above says Nov 9
The mystery happened Nov 8
?????
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 17, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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Fatty and his ilk are behind all of this.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 10:45pm PT
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Zulu time and date.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 17, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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^^Exactly. Pacific Time is 8 hours behind.
So it would be 5:30pm Pacific Time Nov. 8th
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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Now the Zulus are involved? The plot thickens....
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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What???? WTF ?
You all agree it's a missile?
You're all drunk .... :-)
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 18, 2010 - 12:50am PT
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Strange that NONE of the flights that would have been almost on top of the "launch" location,
repoted seeing ANY rocket/missile launch...not to mention any of the boats in the area.
Hmmmm...they must be in on it too.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 18, 2010 - 01:14am PT
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Wrong again Klimmer, that contrail heads exactly west.
and you had empirical evidence that the other cloud matched perfectly..
what happened?
So now this new, totally different contrail now fits your foregone conclusion perfectly too? How?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2010 - 01:45am PT
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Boy you guys are clueless.
But I will hold your hand once again . . .
One and the same.
Now find the original GOES11 images without the massive obscuring blue arrow obviously hiding what we are not supposed to see so easily.
Find them in 15 minute intervals and this series of GOES will show the same exact thing, as the other series. Guarantee it. As long as they haven't been faked or purposefully obscured.
I already said it was going W -WNW. These GOES images are oblique-ish. A true vertical would show the absolute direction, and it would match the direction as seen from Long Beach Harbor perfectly.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 18, 2010 - 02:08am PT
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Just realized, by the time stamps on the images above, the contrail took over 30 minutes to develope full size from before 5:30 until 6:00pm..., yet you point to a contrail
on the left of the blue arrow that is time stamped at 5:30.
We shouldn't see that until at least 6:00pm.
Sorry, those two trajectories do not match at all.
also that puts the speed of the "missile" at about 65mph.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 18, 2010 - 02:10am PT
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Klimmer, it's pretty easy to determine which feature in the sat pic is the one in the photos by simply plotting the sun's azimuth at sunset on the same sat pic and seeing which feature is north or south of that line...give it a whirl dude.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 18, 2010 - 02:15am PT
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Klimmer,
Every crime has a motive. Please answer my question from the previous page.
Without a motive you've solving a victimless crime.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 18, 2010 - 04:03am PT
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Look at all the other missile contrails to the N. and S. of Klimmer's -- all of them are going due W and spaced about millimeter apart!
Or is that just an artifact of the compiling the satellite imagery?
Look, Klimmer! Missiles!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2010 - 09:40am PT
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These 2 images are one and the same.
And it is a second verification of the time stamp. Zulu 1:30 on Nov, 9th, 2010 = PST 5:30 on Nov. 8th, 2010.
From the previous image PST 5:15 its looks as though it may have been just fired.
In the GOES 11 image we see that it has already fired and gone through course correction through guidance control and is rocketting at tremendous speeds to the W - WNW and covering a lot of ground horizontally and gaining altitude slowly.
You know I can easily now correct my images and distances and I know roughly it did it all in about 15 minutes covering that enormous distance and gaining those altitudes. I'll calculate that. Easy to do.
It was ripping down range and you know that and I know that.
The GOES images from 5:30 PST just show the massive exhaust plume changing over time as it was drifted by the winds.
The thin exhaust contrail to the very top of the seen trajectory gets easily erased rapidly at very high altitudes but we do have images of it.
I can now explain many of the images on "Contrail Debunk Science" website. Can you?
Twas a missile with a very long exhaust/vapor trail going to the W - WNW away from the coast.
The perspective from the helicopter over Long Beach Harbor really foreshortens that perspective, but it is still a very correct perspective. The contrail is seriously leaning steeply to the W - WNW. And it looked like it was moving slow because it was making significant down range horizontal motion but only gaining altitude slowly.
Twas a missile.
Crime? What crime?
Plenty of lies and cover-up going on though. That isn't ethical or right to do. Admit the truth and let the public know what happened. If indeed it was China doing this playing "root'n - toot'n Cowboys", then they should be called on it.
However, if I'm not mistaken we do this juvenile behavior off of their coast too.
I DO NOT KNOW WHO FIRED IT. BUT I DO KNOW THE DOD/PENTAGON KNOWS. WHY NOT BE HONEST WITH THE AMERICAN CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY? WE CAN HANDLE IT.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 18, 2010 - 10:06am PT
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OMG, Klimmer. Every morning for the last few days I awake to even more stunning crap from you.
Klimmer, you yourself are pointing to the apostrophe cloud next to the blue arrow.
How could the blue arrow be covering up the launch evidence then?
You would think they would have placed the arrow a little more to the right to cover the start of the launch. It's wide enough to cover up the whole launch area and more downrange track.
And if they wanted to hide the 'track' on the left, they would just crop the pic.
Your pic shows no contiguous plume. The Arrow pic covers the gaps.
We know you won't take your work to a science forum, let alone an optical science forum.
It's going to your other well known hangout, DemocraticUnderground, a political forum, isn't it?
You wouldn't show your work for 240 degrees and it turns out that corresponds well with AWE808. Your apostrophe cloud is way off at 254. Sucks for you but you better adjust.
It was ripping down range and you know that and I know that.
Not your missile. There are gaps. If a sat pic can show a 'wispy contrail'(your words) then it's gonna show more for a real missile.
The LAX pic shows considerable more downrange motion, in the opposite direction.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2010 - 10:41am PT
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Mono,
See the difference is I have room to adjust and can easily.
Won't change the truth of it being a missile.
As better imagery comes in and gets revealed it will only show it better, what I already know and now know exactly where it is now.
You on the other hand have no room to adjust, because you went wrong from the get go and continue to argue that view relentlessly. And you have no evidence to back you up. I on the other hand have all kinds of correlating overlapping evidence that all says the same thing, and confirms the truth.
Twas a missile.
So how is the pay in the disinfo office? Do you get medical and dental coverage?
Just curious.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 18, 2010 - 10:44am PT
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The checks have been puny lately.
Not enough threats.
I've been trying to milk this gig as long as I can, but the boss says you are just too weak.
I might have to move to another section of the NWO.
GC says there's an opening in S.P.E.C.T.R.E. so there's hope.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 18, 2010 - 11:42am PT
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Patternicity: Finding Meaningful Patterns in Meaningless Noise
Why the brain believes something is real when it is not
By Michael Shermer November 25, 2008 7
Why do people see faces in nature, interpret window stains as human figures, hear voices in random sounds generated by electronic devices or find conspiracies in the daily news? A proximate cause is the priming effect, in which our brain and senses are prepared to interpret stimuli according to an expected model. UFOlogists see a face on Mars. Religionists see the Virgin Mary on the side of a building. Paranormalists hear dead people speaking to them through a radio receiver. Conspiracy theorists think 9/11 was an inside job by the Bush administration. Is there a deeper ultimate cause for why people believe such weird things? There is. I call it “patternicity,” or the tendency to find meaningful patterns in meaningless noise.
Traditionally, scientists have treated patternicity as an error in cognition. A type I error, or a false positive, is believing something is real when it is not (finding a nonexistent pattern). A type II error, or a false negative, is not believing something is real when it is (not recognizing a real pattern—call it “apatternicity”). In my 2000 book How We Believe (Times Books), I argue that our brains are belief engines: evolved pattern-recognition machines that connect the dots and create meaning out of the patterns that we think we see in nature. Sometimes A really is connected to B; sometimes it is not. When it is, we have learned something valuable about the environment from which we can make predictions that aid in survival and reproduction. We are the ancestors of those most successful at finding patterns. This process is called association learning, and it is fundamental to all animal behavior, from the humble worm C. elegans to H. sapiens.
Unfortunately, we did not evolve a Baloney Detection Network in the brain to distinguish between true and false patterns. We have no error-detection governor to modulate the pattern-recognition engine. (Thus the need for science with its self-correcting mechanisms of replication and peer review.) But such erroneous cognition is not likely to remove us from the gene pool and would therefore not have been selected against by evolution.
In a September paper in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B, “The Evolution of Superstitious and Superstition-like Behaviour,” Harvard University biologist Kevin R. Foster and University of Helsinki biologist Hanna Kokko test my theory through evolutionary modeling and demonstrate that whenever the cost of believing a false pattern is real is less than the cost of not believing a real pattern, natural selection will favor patternicity. They begin with the formula pb > c, where a belief may be held when the cost (c) of doing so is less than the probability (p) of the benefit (b). For example, believing that the rustle in the grass is a dangerous predator when it is only the wind does not cost much, but believing that a dangerous predator is the wind may cost an animal its life.
The problem is that we are very poor at estimating such probabilities, so the cost of believing that the rustle in the grass is a dangerous predator when it is just the wind is relatively low compared with the opposite. Thus, there would have been a beneficial selection for believing that most patterns are real.
Through a series of complex formulas that include additional stimuli (wind in the trees) and prior events (past experience with predators and wind), the authors conclude that “the inability of individuals—human or otherwise—to assign causal probabilities to all sets of events that occur around them will often force them to lump causal associations with non-causal ones. From here, the evolutionary rationale for superstition is clear: natural selection will favour strategies that make many incorrect causal associations in order to establish those that are essential for survival and reproduction.”
In support of a genetic selection model, Foster and Kokko note that “predators only avoid nonpoisonous snakes that mimic a poisonous species in areas where the poisonous species is common” and that even such simple organisms as “Escherichia coli cells will swim towards physiologically inert methylated aspartate presumably owing to an adaptation to favour true aspartate.”
Such patternicities, then, mean that people believe weird things because of our evolved need to believe nonweird things.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 18, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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And Granitclimber believes he will "save" klimmer from himself .... LOL
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 18, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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Everyone does it, but some more than others.
Klimmer must be an extreme outlier.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 18, 2010 - 11:45am PT
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No Werner, I can't even save myself, let alone you or Klimmer.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Nov 18, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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The Shermer article is interesting but I do not think quite correct.
I think the cost of "patternicity" seeing patterns in random noise and responding to them as if they were real can be very high. To use the wind and predator analogy. If I think a predator is just the wind, I get eaten. If I always think the wind is a predator, I run away, burning extra energy and don't eat. I starve. If I am a soldier and I think I see the enemy in every shadow, I use up all of my bullets on shadows. Then the real enemy finishes me off.
In our bodies, if our immune system decides that some mild substance is a dangerous enemy, then we have an allergic reaction, which if severe enough kills us. Many people suffer from severe auto-immune responses which endanger their survival. The immune system sees danger where there is non and attacks whatever is handy - our own bodies.
In Klimmer's case, if we believe him we would go on full alert and send up responses every time we see a suspicious vapor trail in the sky. Maybe we will feel better if we shoot down whatever is causing those trails in the sky. I know I would. I felt really good after looking at all the photos of military power and destruction on another topic thread. We should our power closer to home, shooting down chemtrails! Or is it the military power causing the chemtrails?? Too confusing. Too much noise.
We get away with errors in pattern recognition when the cost is not very high. So in that respect, I will agree with Shermer. But I don't see it as an evolutionary thing. Or rather, I suspect that we have very powerful tools for dealing with false positive errors in pattern recognition. Boredom maybe?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
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The checks have been puny lately.
Not enough threats.
I've been trying to milk this gig as long as I can, but the boss says you are just too weak.
I might have to move to another section of the NWO.
GC says there's an opening in S.P.E.C.T.R.E. so there's hope.
Mono and GC,
You guys crack me up. Lol.
You know, I never knew what S.P.E.C.T.R.E was all about. Mystery to me. Then I looked it up just now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECTRE
Too funny.
I can now fix any misstakes in my original study and get even better results. I know where exactly the smoking gun is now and it is exactly where I thought it would be. I just didn't know that the smoking trail was sooooo long.
Very cool. I know now. I can fix my results. I'm satisfied. Just wish the "gubment" would tell the truth.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 18, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
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how would you know the government was telling the truth?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 18, 2010 - 04:09pm PT
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 18, 2010 - 04:12pm PT
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Hey, that's my symbol!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 18, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 18, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
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Quiz time.
Spot the delusions/fallacies below which have NOT appeared in this thread.
* 23 enigma
* Clustering illusion
* Confirmation bias
* Conspiracy theory
* Delusions of reference
* Forer effect
* Hindsight bias
* Paranoiac-critical method
* Pareidolia
* Reality tunnel
* Synchronicity
* Texas sharpshooter fallacy
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 18, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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Klimmer, plot the sunset azimuth on that sat pic yet?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 18, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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There has been what most would characterize as bad news with AEGIS
and it really happened
SEA OF LIES
The inside story of how an America naval vessel blundered into an attack on Iran Air 655 at the height of tensions during the Iran-Iraq War, and how the Pentagon tried to cover its tracks after 290 innocent civilians died. Newsweek, July 13, 1992http://alt-f4.org/img/seaoflies.html
In 1990, George H. W. Bush awarded Rogers the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his tenure as Commanding officer of "Vincennes" and made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 18, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
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Missile Defense Agency Space Tracking and Surveillance System Advanced
Technology Risk Reduction Satellite transfers to Air Force Space Command.
Typical post-launch / shakedown / on-station transfer of control of a sat in orbit - no biggy, what is normally called a 'coincidence'.
I would guess a AEGIS test if their were launches, but no news.
There's no need to fire an SLBM to test the Aegis system or the current SM-3 missile and such testing typically happens in Hawaii. The last done by a Japanese Aegis at the end of last month and was more about sales than operational testing. The next generation of SM-3 - the SM-3 Block 1B - is in development and won't be tested next summer.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 18, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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Those SM-2 or SM-3 missiles are tiny and no way could have made an exhaust trail that big.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 18, 2010 - 06:41pm PT
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BES1'st, the THAAD system is also tested at the Hawaiian PMRF. The SM-3 out performs the THAAD in a number of roles, however, and so there is talk of extending the SM-3 (particularly the block II configuration once in production) to land-based configurations and some test facilities development in the PMRF. I believe the Israelis are the ones pushing for this behind the scenes, though no doubt hawks still selling EU theater defense would fall in line with the option as well. Otherwise, we do have a couple of AEGIS boats in Alaska.
Shack, the 'purported' Nov. 8th 'launch' wouldn't have been an SM-3 launch, it would have been an SLBM target vehicle for a distant SM-3 test launch.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 18, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
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Asseveration
Convergence
Dissemination
Manipulation
Rationalization
Redemption
Vivisection
Odious
Affinity
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 18, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
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Lat 33° 14’ 13.7 N
Long 119° 28’ 22 W
Will that make you happy, Klimmer
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 18, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
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He's already happy.
He proved it was a missile.
Why are you sad ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 18, 2010 - 09:32pm PT
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A simple plot of the sun's azimuth from LB harbor projected onto the sat pic Klimmer is using demolishes his assertions.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 18, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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I was on the bridge of a cruise ship off the Na Pali coast a few years ago when we started hearing big booming noises like thunder.
The captain (my cousin) got on the radio and quickly determined that some navy ships just over the horizon were conducting some impromptu live fire exercises, apparently just for shits and giggles.
The guy on the navy ship sounded all of nineteen years old, assured us that they would stop right away. They did.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 19, 2010 - 12:51am PT
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cuz only one of those grains of sands was a missile. the others were aeroplanes.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 20, 2010 - 10:48am PT
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Don't be so gullible, Ron.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 20, 2010 - 11:09am PT
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He wants your money for his newsletter. He'll tell you anything to get it.
The newsletter is pimped even before the article starts.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
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Monolith
What you said ^^^ does not confirm nor deny what the article says.
You're just trying to imply that since this person is running a commercial web site that he is not to be trusted.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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LOL Crowley
I don't know. So you guys say this site is a dis-info site.
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 20, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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Question: Is the World Net Daily a good source of information?
Answer: As it brought to you by the same people, it is as good as Weekly World News. Based on this article about the suppressed images of Heaven by the Hubble Space Telescope, I'm guessing that WWN is a primary source of insider intelligence for Klimmer.
http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/11684/new-hubble-images/
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 20, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
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Jeebus Werner, how do you debunk 'An undisclosed insider reports that...Obama opted for a muted response'?
And then the outright lie that the FAA says there were no flights in the area.
Complete BS Werner.
If you don't see this as a junk source, then whatever.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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Yeah
I know guys, and you guys are crackin me up... LOL
Anyways where's fattrad and crew?
We need to get in our secret submarine and launch another missile to keep everyone off guard and busy with this sh'it ..... :-)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 20, 2010 - 12:43pm PT
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Nobody has yet offered up even a remotely plausible explanation as to why
the military (ours, not Israel's or China's) would launch a "missle", which
they wanted to keep secret, in daylight just miles from Los Angeles and close
to commercial air traffic. Was it to test the DOD's disinformation capabilities?
That would be the most plausible reason which I could believe.
As for the 'proof' I am happy to announce I have assembled a peer review panel.
Dr Sprock will chair it, but I'm afraid I have to keep the others' names secret.
We will submit our findings to Fattrad since he is our veritable Price Waterhouse.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 20, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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Good guess, MA. Klimmer cited WWN when he started the Massive Ark on the Moon thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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Aww fuk
This thread isn't going anywhere.
Lets talk about 911 :-)
Where's my crew .....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
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With this one you can at least say some human-built and -controlled machine went from point A to point B; with the ark you have nothing except some orbital survey shots, a great deal of creative manipulation, and an adventurous imagination which would make Hermann Rorschach proud.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2010 - 04:01pm PT
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No evidence of that have I seen at all.
Of course you don't.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
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There are no flying metallic objects with combustion propulsion systems which are not human-built and -controlled.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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Thus spoke the master of the universe ^^^^^
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2010 - 04:24pm PT
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Yep, not on my planet, I don't allow them.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 20, 2010 - 08:14pm PT
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Ron Anderson,
Good find!
I knew it. Twas a missile.
Stereograms don't lie. GOES 11 images show the launch and exhaust/vapor plume. Simple trig does indeed show it went over 156,000+ feet in altitude. No commercial or military jet can fly that high.
FROM JOSEPH FARAH'S G2 BULLETIN Experts: Mystery contrail was from Chinese missile
'Muted response' was decision 'made by the president himself'
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=230425
STARTLING REPORT! Experts: Missile was CHINESE - President KNEW IT. Systems Failed. Cover-up!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WGcSuGojYA&feature=player_embedded
Edit:
Rokjox,
Geeeeeees. You are a hard grader. Only 10 out of 100 points? Holy Mackeral Batman. Dang you are harsh.
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 20, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
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Question: Why did Klimmer not pick up on the Heaven by Hubble opportunity? Note in the report cited above and copied below, the eerie similarity to Klimmer's usual arguments. The President at the time was briefed, anonymous experts provided inside information, Government officials were suspiciously silent, the People only wanted NASA to "come clean". You could suspect that Klimmer is writer for the WWN.
Answer: Coming in a later post!
HEAVEN PHOTOGRAPHED BY HUBBLE TELESCOPE
February 8, 1994
Just days after space shuttle astronauts repaired the Hubble Space Telescope in mid December, the giant lens focused on a star cluster at the edge of the universe – and photographed heaven!
That’s the word from author and researcher Marcia Masson, who quoted highly places NASA insiders as having said that the telescope beamed hundreds of photos back to the command center at Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., on December 26.
The pictures clearly show a vast white city floating eerily in the blackness of space.
And the expert quoted NASA sources as saying that the city is definitely Heaven “because life as we know it couldn’t possibly exist in icy, airless space.
“This is it – this is the proof we’ve been waiting for,” Dr. Masson told reporters.
“Through an enormous stroke of luck, NASA aimed the Hubble Telescope at precisely the right place at precisely the right time to capture these images on film. I’m not particularly religious, but I don’t doubt that somebody or something influenced the decision to aim the telescope at that particular area of space.
“Was that someone or something God himself? Given the vastness of the universe, and all the places NASA could have targeted for study, that would certainly appear to be the case.”
NASA spokesmen declined to comment on the author’s report “pending further analysis of the photographs received on December 26.” In spite of official silence, agency insiders concede that NASA “has discovered something that might alter the future of all mankind.”
They also confirmed that President Bill Clinton and Vice President Al Gore have taken a keen personal interest in the photographs and have requested daily briefings. Dr. Masson said: “The Hubble Space Telescope was designed to photograph images as far away as the edge of the universe but a lens flaw prevented it from doing so until shuttle astronauts corrected the defect during a recent mission.
“When they finished their work, the telescope trained its enormous glass eye on the outer reachers of the universe.
“From what I understand, the first images it received were nothing more than kaleidoscopic bursts of color and light.
“As adjustments were made and the focus sharpened, NASA analysts couldn’t believe their eyes.
“After checking and rechecking the data, they concluded that the images were authentic. They also theorized that the city couldn’t possibly be inhabited by life as we know it.
“The only logical explanation was that the city was inhabited by the souls of the dead. As one of my sources put it, ‘We found where God lives.’”
It has been rumored that the space agency has forwarded photographs to Pope John Paul II at his request, but Vatican sources will neither confirm nor deny it.
Dr. Masson, who obtained copies of a single photograph from her NASA sources, says the space agency’s next move “will be most revealing.”
“This is a chance for NASA to come clean with the public and tell us everything it knows,” she said.
Just days after space shuttle astronauts repaired the Hubble Space Telescope in mid December, the giant lens focused on a star cluster at the edge of the universe – and photographed heaven!
That’s the word from author and researcher Marcia Masson, who quoted highly places NASA insiders as having said that the telescope beamed hundreds of photos back to the command center at Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., on December 26.
The pictures clearly show a vast white city floating eerily in the blackness of space.
And the expert quoted NASA sources as saying that the city is definitely Heaven “because life as we know it couldn’t possibly exist in icy, airless space.
“This is it – this is the proof we’ve been waiting for,” Dr. Masson told reporters.
“Through an enormous stroke of luck, NASA aimed the Hubble Telescope at precisely the right place at precisely the right time to capture these images on film. I’m not particularly religious, but I don’t doubt that somebody or something influenced the decision to aim the telescope at that particular area of space.
“Was that someone or something God himself? Given the vastness of the universe, and all the places NASA could have targeted for study, that would certainly appear to be the case.”
NASA spokesmen declined to comment on the author’s report “pending further analysis of the photographs received on December 26.” In spite of official silence, agency insiders concede that NASA “has discovered something that might alter the future of all mankind.”
They also confirmed that President Bill Clinton and Vice President Al Gore have taken a keen personal interest in the photographs and have requested daily briefings. Dr. Masson said: “The Hubble Space Telescope was designed to photograph images as far away as the edge of the universe but a lens flaw prevented it from doing so until shuttle astronauts corrected the defect during a recent mission.
“When they finished their work, the telescope trained its enormous glass eye on the outer reachers of the universe.
“From what I understand, the first images it received were nothing more than kaleidoscopic bursts of color and light.
“As adjustments were made and the focus sharpened, NASA analysts couldn’t believe their eyes.
“After checking and rechecking the data, they concluded that the images were authentic. They also theorized that the city couldn’t possibly be inhabited by life as we know it.
“The only logical explanation was that the city was inhabited by the souls of the dead. As one of my sources put it, ‘We found where God lives.’”
It has been rumored that the space agency has forwarded photographs to Pope John Paul II at his request, but Vatican sources will neither confirm nor deny it.
Dr. Masson, who obtained copies of a single photograph from her NASA sources, says the space agency’s next move “will be most revealing.”
“This is a chance for NASA to come clean with the public and tell us everything it knows,” she said.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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LOL Cragman
You're starting to sound like me ....
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 20, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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Cragman, it would be safe to assume that no scientist said anything at all in that article and no scientist has ever had anything to do with that particular favorite source (the Weekly World News) of Klimmer's.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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So MisterAnswers
What is the answer to the answer?
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 20, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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WBraun, I'm not sure what the answer is and that is unfortunate as this is an important question.
Klimmer throws all his energy into crazy conspiracy A, but dismisses crazy conspiracy B. Is there a dividing line along the crazy axis? Are there particular details that are important? Does it require involvement by NASA, the Airforce, Democrats, Space Aliens? Does a crazy conspiracy only pass muster with him if there are certain combinations of these kinds of things?
Psychiatrists everywhere are anxious to know the answer and sadly, for once, MisterAnswers is coming up empty handed.
It could be the weather! Snowing like hell here. How about in Yosemite?
EDIT: What do you think about that WWN story about Hubble spotting Heaven Klimmer?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 20, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
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MA,
You just like making-up 100% USDA Grade Bull Dung don't you?
Not very Christian of you. You shouldn't lie and put words in other peoples mouths. Didn't your parents teach you better than that? What would Jesus do?
How do you feel about Jesus? Who was he?
You are letting your true identity slip through.
Edit:
Hey, I got the coveted 777 post and wasn't even trying. Very nice.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 20, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
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So, Klim, you're sticking with 156k feet, even though the calc was based on 177 miles away from observer after aprox 10 minutes from launch.
Klimmer then had to claim:
It was ripping down range and you know that and I know that.
Better make up some new numbers then explain away all the gaps in the sat pic.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 20, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
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There's a starman waiting in the skies...he'd like to come and meet us but he knows he'd blow our minds...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 20, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
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Mono,
It's gonna be higher, that is why I have been typing 156,000+ feet. I just haven't taken the time to remeasure yet and recalculate yet. I will eventually, and I will fix all my graphics. I can now also very accurately triangulate to the actual launch location in the Pacific Ocean. I have great data now all around.
I also now have stereograms that are with very enhanced parallax, and it shows it all going away from the coast toward the W - WNW even easier.
I know the answer, not gonna change things much vertically, but it will for sure change some.
I can also now calculate the approx. actual velocity of the missile knowing the horizontal (X = adj.) and vertical (Y = opp.) components of velocity. It will be easy to solve for the hypotenuse, the resultant velocity of both components when I get around to it.
I've been busy. But it will get done eventually.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 20, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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APOD: 2010 August 9 - IRAS 05437 2502: An Enigmatic Star Cloud from Hubble
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap100809.html
Could be heaven, especially if you had a pair of interstellar ice axes.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 20, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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Shockingly, we won't ever see such a calculation from Klimmer, because it brings up a whole new set of problems.
But still, just trying to help you out buddy.
If I can pick you apart, imagine if you took your 'research' to a science forum where there are 40 Ed H's and Mike B's.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2010 - 10:31pm PT
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He also seems unable to plot the azimuth of the sunset at the time of the launch.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 20, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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You guys are jokes.
The azimuth for the setting Sun on 11-8-10 from LA, California is 250 degrees.
Look back to the post where I said that. You can look it up bozos.
NOAA calculators:
Sunrise/Sunset Calculator
http://www.srrb.noaa.gov/highlights/sunrise/sunrise.html
Solar Position Calculator
http://www.srrb.noaa.gov/highlights/sunrise/azel.html
Apparently you guys have no lives.
I can do all of this no problem. But I do not do it for you, when you want it. I only look into these things because I care. I do it because I want to. My calculations when I do get around to doing it again, and fixing the graphics will be very accurate.
Work done so far has been very good approximations and estimates.
I have great data now. It is only going to confirm everything I have said already, just better. Will not change the truth of the matter.
Easy to do.
But I will do it when I want to do, and on my schedule.
My advice to all these dishonest debunkers:
Don't eat Turkey this Holiday since Cannabalism is a sin . . .
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 20, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
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Still waiting for that calc with the made up numbers, Klimmer.
Of course, we'll never get it cuz you'll have to go crying back to that little cloud you trapped yourself in. And you were so sure.
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 20, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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Question: what does with very enhanced parallax mean?
Answer: The phrase means absolutely nothing! That Klimmer made this statement a few posts back means that he is clueless! The poor fellow is so anxious to use scientific terms and appear smart, but, by getting it wrong all the time he just looks dumb.
Parallax is the apparent motion (stated as an angular displacement) of a nearby object with respect to more distant objects when the observer changes position. Its value is set by the distance to the object of interest and the baseline distance between the two observations (the baseline is the component of the observer motion perpendicular to the line of sight to the object). There is no "enhanced" parallax and not even a "very enhanced" parallax.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 20, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
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Mr. A (as in the buttox end)
Parallax is an apparent displacement or difference in the apparent position of an object viewed along two different lines of sight, and is measured by the angle or semi-angle of inclination between those two lines.[1][2] The term is derived from the Greek παράλλαξις (parallaxis), meaning "alteration". Nearby objects have a larger parallax than more distant objects when observed from different positions, so parallax can be used to determine distances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax#Photogrammetric_parallax
There are more than one type of parallax, and application of parallax. I'm referring to the above. This can increase or decrease the depth of field in a 3D image.
Many animals, including humans, have two eyes with overlapping visual fields to use parallax to gain depth perception; this process is known as stereopsis
When I refer to increasing parallax, I'm talking about using 2 images further apart to enhance depth of field perception --> stereopsis.
I can make the Grand Canyon appear to be a normal Grand Canyon depth, or I can make it appear really really deep, by purposeful choice and manipulation of parallax. Do I have to post examples?
Remote Sensing and Aerial Photo Interpretation is a big part of my background.
Mr. A, I'm done with you.
Who ever you are, you are a very dishonest person and hide behind lies. Your whole purpose is harassment of a intellectually dishonest kind.
You are a coward.
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 21, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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Question: Does Klimmer's "explanation" and careful research at Wikipedia clear up what he meant with the original statement?
Answer: No! More nonsensical blather. It goes like this. You have the distance to the object of interest. You have your baseline. You get the parallax angle.
A good question that Klimmer has never even brought up is "can you measure the parallax of the "plume" using the helicopter frames if the "plume" is indeed 180 miles out to sea?" Klimmer claims that this is not an important question because he has his stereoscopic pairs of images. For those of you who did not rush out and purchase stereoscopic glasses, I'll let you in on a little secret: Klimmer is bluffing.
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Nov 21, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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so what about that mystery missle?
that's what she said
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 21, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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Question: Does Klimmer's "explanation" and careful research at Wikipedia clear up what he meant with the original statement?
Answer: No! More nonsensical blather. It goes like this. You have the distance to the object of interest. You have your baseline. You get the parallax angle.
A good question that Klimmer has never even brought up is "can you measure the parallax of the "plume" using the helicopter frames if the "plume" is indeed 180 miles out to sea?" Klimmer claims that this is not an important question because he has his stereoscopic pairs of images. For those of you who did not rush out and purchase stereoscopic glasses, I'll let you in on a little secret: Klimmer is bluffing.
Let them see for themselves.
They will see it too, just as everyone who has looked and observed for themselves with my multiple pairs of stereoscopes has been able to do.
You do not have to measure parallax to see it.
No one has to know how to measure depth of field to see it.
What a joke.
And yes I can calculate the parallax easily. It isn't necessary to prove my point.
What you also have failed to realize is that the original cameraman also zoomed in with a 2X lense multiplier for multiple close-ups. I also made stereopairs from these perspectives.
Watch the video of the interview with the cameraman Gil Leyvas:
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2010/11/09/exclusive-raw-video-mysterious-missile-launch-off-california-coast/#comment-18523
But all of the stereopairs I put together show depth of field from parallax, and then plenty to see the exhaust/vapor plume goes away from the coast, not toward it.
Why are you still arguing this? Seems to me you don't want anyone looking for themselves. Why would that be?
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 21, 2010 - 12:53am PT
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Question for Klimmer: What difference does the 2x zoom make for the size of the parallax angle for the "plume" when photographed from two different positions?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2010 - 12:59am PT
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Werner = MisterAnswers.
(LEB = DMT.)
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 21, 2010 - 01:02am PT
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Don't eat Turkey this Holiday since Cannabalism is a sin . . .
Damn. That's a good line. I have no dog in the missile/no-missile fight, but I think Mr. Klimmer scored some serious points with that put-down.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 21, 2010 - 02:08am PT
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Plot 250 pm your sat pic...
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 21, 2010 - 02:37am PT
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For all of Klimmer's work in "proving" it was a missile,
surely they will promote him to the head of the Pseudoscience Department.
Hahaha!
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 21, 2010 - 11:05am PT
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A startling act of accidental skywriting off the coast of Los Angeles Monday evening has become an aerial Rorschach test where every blogger and ideologue can spell out their own messages with the signs in the sky.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 21, 2010 - 11:18am PT
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 11:38am PT
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Nature, that pic has been shown a number of times.
Klimmer won't address it because he says the power of his stereo vision overrides simple geometry. Quite the scientist.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 21, 2010 - 11:41am PT
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Ah yes... like a good alien loving scientist SHOULD!
it was the UPS flight.
GAME OVER KLIMMER, GAME OVER!
(cuz I said so and that's all the matters).
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 11:45am PT
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Oh RokJox, you are not paying attention.
Klimmer now claims the missile was 'ripping' downrange right away going away from the coast. He's out of the vertical launch scenario. But wait long enough and he will be back.
That pic (view from LAX) shows it was going towards the coast.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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of course a rocket contrail would shear as it passed through the different layers of winds aloft...
I'm sure klimmer will address this when he presents his calculations supporting his hypothesis...
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
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Contrails can persist and drift, unless you think these were all missiles as well.
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 21, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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Question: What it the single key point of Klimmer's case that this was a missile launch?
Answer: His stereoscopic vision!
Everyone who is interested needs to do one of two things. (1) find the stereo pairs, put your nose on your computer screen, cross your eyes, clear your mind and slowly move away from the screen waiting for that magic moment when the two images blend to become one in glorious 3D. That last bit will not happen so then you have to go to the trouble of: (2) get yourself a pair of stereoscopic viewers and now take a look at the photo pairs. Get closer and further, twist the viewers a little bit to account for the changing angle of the photos with respect to the horizon and see if you can see what Klimmer claims to see. His entire argument is balanced on this one claim that he can "see" a column the goes more or less straight up from the ocean.
As a small aside, Klimmer's claim that he does not need to measure the parallax angle, only to "see" it is not correct. Even with his "visions" of twisting, WNW by N columns going skywards he needs to make a parallax *measurement* to set the distance, claim that a plume was seen on the satellite images at that distance and do his subsequent sophisticated calculations using advanced mathematics.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 21, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Geez, monolith - those are chemtrails, not contrails. haven't you been paying attention to anything Klimmer has been posting. :) LOL.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
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Rox,,,,,guidance systems kick in as soon as a missile is launched. corrections are made the minute its flight starts...And the course corrections shown in the pics and film directly correspond to the sat images of the missile exhaust patterns....Let your eyes be the judge.
of course a rocket contrail would shear as it passed through the different layers of winds aloft...
i brought this up previously--this doesn't look like shear, it looks like an adjustment of thrust. shear is horizontal, this looks diagonal.
i would call it a thrust bend. a contrail's gonna be straight. there's a dogleg in the track here, and it's not coming from a crosswind, it's coming because the little gremlin who pilots the missile decided to readjust the thrust slightly shortly after the launch ...
http://spacefellowship.com/news/art23876/it-s-a-bird-it-s-a-missile-it-s-an-airplane-.html
nice posting of chemtrails, monolith. go back and retake the meteorology course which was part of your know-it-all degree. we don't have conditions in the atmosphere whereby airplanes run into brick walls of atmospheric pressure. if that were even possible, it'd the same motherf*#ken brick wall, not a brick wall for one airplane and a different one for the next airplane, as demonstrated in your second picture there. but when you flick the feed switch, that shuts it off fine.
don't wanna believe in chemtrails? okay, let's play it your way. done your green thing for today? picked up a candy wrapper on the trail back from half dome? when was the last time you heard congress debating or fox news reporting on an issue like high-altitude smog? smog is something for liberals to buy priuses for. chemtrails or whateverthef*#k, nobody wrings their hands about what you see in mono's third and fourth pictures there, laid fast, furious and intentionally. let me check last week's sierra club action alert, i'm sure they're all concerned about it.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
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The point was contrails can persist. Point proven.
And as far as what Tony said, can someone translate from gibberish?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
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Ron Anderson is a member of the flat earth society too
so much for the horizon and the globe...
hey Ron, maybe you can calculate what distance the apparent horizon is as a function of your altitude... maybe not, klimmer couldn't do it
tony is feeling self-righteous today, we are destroying the environment and he wants us to stop...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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so much bruhaha over an airplane contrail... which is a much more reasonable and supported explanation
but I am impressed that we have such fine "internet intelligence" that we are privy to memos of the Russian government...
I think you've gotten excited and let your imagination run away with you, Ron, zip it up and try to rethink how we got here
in any event if the helicopter was flying on the opposite bearing as the aircraft, it is optimally bad for digging out any of the depth, speed, etc, detail... but let's not let any reasonable fact get in the way of a good international conspiracy theory
the problem with looking at the pictures is that you don't know what you are looking at, but you are "seeing" a lot, you might want to think about that
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 21, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
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so much for the horizon and the globe...
hey Ron, maybe you can calculate what distance the apparent horizon is as a function of your altitude... maybe not, klimmer couldn't do it
Ed,
Why are you dishonest? Why do you make-up crap?
I chose to do the original calculation ignoring the curvature of the Earth. It was a quick estimate, but not incredibly wrong.
I can do it. I can look it up and do the calculation for any given height. But at some height it is a dimishing return, (i.e. Apollo missions to the Moon, X altitude above the Earth on the way to the Moon could not see anymore than half the Earth at a certain point.)
I have a holiday/trip to get ready for don't have the time to hang-out and keep argueing the same things over and over again.
Nice find Ron A.:
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-517026?ref=feeds%2Flatest
A new report circulating in the Kremlin today prepared for Prime Minister Putin by Director Anatoly Perminov of the Russian Federal Space Agency states that an Arkon-1 military satellite monitoring the western coastal regions of North America detected an “EMP anomalous event” occurring on November 8th at 0600 Pacific Standard Time (-8 hours GMT) that bore the “direct signature” of a YJ-62 subsonic anti-ship missile fired from a Chinese People’s Liberation Navy Type 041 submarine (NATO code name Yuan-Class) [photo 2nd left] known to be patrolling approximately 200 kilometers off United States coast.
Nearly 11 hours after this EMP “event”, this report further says, Arkon-1 then detected a BGM-109 (Tomahawk) subsonic cruise missile launched from a US Navy Ohio-Class submarine operating off the coast of California [photo bottom left] on a “training mission” from its home port located at US Navy’s Kitsap Base in Washington State and was enroute to the largest American Naval Base on the US west coast in San Diego, California.
The above article appears to come from this source:
Not sure what to say about it . . .
November 10, 2010
Chinese EMP Attack Prompts US Missile Strike After Cruise Ship Crippled
By: Sorcha Faal, and as reported to her Western Subscribers
http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1421.htm
I just looked at the stereograms, despite my promise to myself to stop reading this stupid thread. I expected the 3D effect to be pronounced as Klimmer claimed. But instead it was barely detectable at all. The visual cues from the nearby clouds were much stronger.
Not at all convincing. A dud.
Del Cross,
Look at all of them. I didn't even have to prompt people looking at them with me, when they looked. They could see it for themselves and clearly identified the exhaust/vapor plume goes away from the coast, away from the observer (to the W - WNW direction). The zoomed in ones are really good, and the enhanced parallax images show it even easier; haven't had time to post those yet.
I will take my time, finish my calculations, and include the enhanced stereograms also. I will eventually post. But what I have already shown, does it very well already.
Also make sure you zoom in and make the stereograms as big as possible on screen and sit-back or stand back with "pokecope" and it works wonderfully.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
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Cool, now an EMP event happened.
Does that mean a nuclear weapon exploded, Klimmer?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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So ... there ya have it, the Russians speak, and confirm a missile.
It's all over now, finished!
The Russians have a fat lady and will now sing.
We will now move on to solving 911 and the moon ....
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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So does that mean the missile was carrying an EMP device Klimmer?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
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it's hard to trust russians with opera. much better at ballet.
here's my point on the chemtrails or, if you will, exaggerated contrails. you're going to link me to one of the debunking pages which have grown up over the past year, and i'm going to tell you up front why i don't buy their chopped-up science.
do me a small favor and take a look towards the end of klimmer's recent chemtrail thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1286602&tn=240
some guy named abenda showed up there--who knows, maybe another disinformation artist trying to counterspin this whole mess--talking about geoengineering. as i posted in that thread a short time previous to that, secret geoengineering could actually make some sense as a drastically urgent measure to shore up the ozone hole, something you'd never be able to get noisy environmental organizations to agree about. from where i sit, i stopped hearing all about the terrible ozone hole about the time the chemtrail activity picked up. just look at that last photo monolith posted there. is there any other conceivable explanation for that ridiculous criss-crossed air traffic? maybe the eccentric quadrillionaire who runs the world is scottish and prefers to see plaid skies?
clouds form at dew point, which is a function of temperature, pressure and humidity. clear air means we're above dew point. push any of those factors across the line and the invisible water vapor jumps right out of its gaseous state onto tiny, invisible dust bits, turning to liquid, reflecting light, becoming a cloud or fog.
once upon a time, chemtrails/exaggerated contrails never existed, not the hint of one. i've asked this question several times on ST, which is full of oldtimers like myself, some even older, who have been outdoor people all their lives and lived gloriously under the beautiful sky and should have some memory either to back me up or differ with me. i'd welcome either one. i raised it with healyje on that chemtrail thread, but he has not deigned to answer. i'll bet he can't. i'll bet no one remembers skies like this before 20 years ago, maybe not even before 10-15 years ago.
BITD the contrail would form and then disappear a short time later. the scientific explanation of that? the jet thrust hits the air pretty hard, then immediately behind the thrust there's a burble, a drop in pressure, and the cloud forms. the heat of the exhaust would tend to work against cloud formation, but the drop in pressure is so great that a cloud forms in spite of the heat. and it stays there for a short while, the plane passes, and the atmosphere returns fairly quickly to its previous state, above the dew point, and the sky clears. you still see normal contrails. you'll see them in the same skies with chemtrails. explain that.
the anti-chemtrail people argue that the disturbance is such that the clouds just keep forming and forming, filling the skies. the chemtrails people will counter that what produces this is the injection of aluminum and boron compounds. why? ha, let's not get into that here, let's just talk about whether we're looking at the product of normal dew point science with the atmosphere somehow disturbed as never seen before, or whether something secret is going on.
perhaps another argument for you normalists would be that the skies are so damned full of soot from the intense air traffic of the past 20 years that the contrails just get going that way. funny how that never became an environmental issue.
either way, it would be pretty easy to prove this out with some credible sampling, which doesn't seem to be taking place. much safer to spend your time folding tin hats. stoop too far and you could lose an argument.
there has been anecdotal news coverage of this, including a los angeles television station which interviewed residents of running springs who felt they were reacting allergically to a day of particularly intense activity.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 21, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
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Tony, I have a short question.
Why is it that chemtrails only seems to exist when there is a lot of humidity at high altitude?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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not having a humidity gauge up there, i wouldn't be able to answer that. i assume you do, or believe those who tell you so. but if that's all true, explain how they end so abruptly, which is how the subject got into this thread.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 21, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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"not having a humidity gauge up there, i wouldn't be able to answer that. i assume you do,"
The existent of usual cirrus clouds is a sign of humidity. The knowledge of fronts approaching is another sign. It is of course also possibly to look at forecast soundings or real soundings to determine the humidity.
"or believe those who tell you so."
What can I say about comments like this?
"but if that's all true, explain how they end so abruptly, which is how the subject got into this thread."
I don't know what you mean but the humidity at altitude changes quit a lot and can change very abruptly.
This chemtrail conspiracy is probably the most stupid conspiracy I have heard about. The first premise in regard to the existence of chemtrails is just wrong in regard to basic meteorology (sorry forgot that all meteorologist, meteorological text book writers and forecasts are obviously involved in the conspiracy...)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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you're not answering the questions, just phulishly ridiculing them, attempting to place yourself on a plateau so far above us all that your mere scorn will suffice. great strategy, unfortunately so overused on ST that no one cringes from it any more.
"can change very abruptly"? are we looking at the same postings by monolith, immediately above? are you proposing that humidity varies in a wild overlay of wet and dry noodles to produce all that onning and offing? sounds like fantasyland to me.
so, shouldn't chemtrails mostly be appearing in cirrus skies? but one of their specialties is filling up the clear, clear blue.
i'd like to see some 40-year-old photos of chemtrail-filled skies, laid down by 707s. not worried about that, however. as we all know in these information wars, ask, and it shall be given unto you.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
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Oh Tony, you have much to learn.
Here's a WW2 vid of contrails from bombers. Were we spraying back then?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfOrez6q7WM
Check out at 42 seconds. Watch the contrail sputter, then at 48 they've stopped completely.
Can we put this sudden stopping contrail crap to bed now?
^^^^^^^Look Tony, the contrails have suddenly stopped^^^^^^^^
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 21, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
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Question: Do clouds, which turn out to have alot in common with contrails, dissipate on short time scales?
Answer: Of course not.
Question: Has Del Cross discovered a very important fact?
Answer: Yes! I told you that Klimmer was bluffing! Now the question of why he would make up an easily refutable (I guess for Tony Bird that would be "rephootable") fact is far too deep for me. Perhaps when he comes clean, he will explain.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 21, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
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I've viewed Klimmers color 3d with the glasses on the Massive Ark thread. Complete crap.
Yet I've used the glasses on other color 3d images and they work amazingly well.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 21, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
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I did look at them. The stereograms had essentially no 3D quality to them at all. The visual cues were coming primarily from nearby clouds.
I was expecting the 3D effect to be pronounced but instead it is completely lacking.
The stereograms are totally unconvincing.
Del Cross,
You are a liar to say the 3D effect is completely lacking. You debunk yourself.
There is plenty of 3D effect, and yes you can tell the exhaust/vapor plume direction easily.
Of course the Cirrus clouds help. They are clearly in front of the exhaust/vapor plume and this is easily seen in 3D. And yes they certainly add to the depth perception. You can clearly see the top of the exhaust/vapor plume receeding away from the Cirrus cloud. The base of the plume is closer to the bottom Cirrus cloud and the top of the plume is much further away from the top Cirrus cloud. This wouldn't be true if the plume was coming toward the observer.
Thanks for seeing the Cirrus clouds do indeed help. Yes, you saw that because of the 3D effect.
The upclose stereograms are even more incredible. For a jet to follow that exhaust/vapor plume, it would have had to be going straight up clock-wise spiraling, and then radically climbing to the W - WNW at a very steep angle away from the coast. Boy, must have been a wild ride for the passengers. They must have felt like they were on the Space Shuttle (sarcasm).
Answer: Yes! I told you that Klimmer was bluffing! Now the question of why he would make up an easily refutable (I guess for Tony Bird that would be "rephootable") fact is far too deep for me. Perhaps when he comes clean, he will explain.
Mr. A,
Yea, sure I am Mr. A. I'm making it aaaaaaaallllllllll up. (sarcasm)
I've viewed Klimmers color 3d with the glasses on the Massive Ark thread. Complete crap.
Yet I've used the glasses on other color 3d images and they work amazingly well.
Mono,
Yea, sure they are. Uh, huh. (sarcasm)
Boy you guys are desperate. Like I said, don't forget, don't eat any Turkey for Thanksgiving, Cannabalism is a sin.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
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Better enjoy the turkey Klimmer, it will be a good break from all that crow.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 21, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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A regular Einstein on calculations, but totally unable to plot 250 on the sat pic...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 21, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
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Cragman,
I doubt you have faith in Christ, because you sure don't act like it. Why do you participate in name calling and personal attacks? That isn't Christ like.
As Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruit."
I try to argue facts, and I try deperately not to make it about the person or to use ad hominem attacks. (Ok, I admit I called them Turkeys. My bad. A moment of weakness.)
I will not apologize for someone who is lying and misrepresenting the truth and spreading disinfo, and then calling them on it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 21, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
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Hint - the sun set south of your missile track, not north of it.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
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Why would you want to mess with another mans vice?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 21, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
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Hint#2 - the sun couldn't have provided this illumination on Klimmer's northern NW 'missile' track with a 250 solar azimuth.
It could have provided exactly this illumination to the more southern commercial flight contrail in the same sat pics.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 21, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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Cragman,
I wouldn't mind meeting you, I'm up in Bishop often, have a second home up there.
Do you really think that you, me, your pastor, and my pastor are going to see eye to eye on much? That will be about as fun as needles in my eye.
We'll agree on the Trinity, Salvation through the Grace of GOD, the Blood of Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior, and many other good news issues, but hardly anything else.
Does your pastor like to talk and study about Revelations and the End of Days? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology
The NWO? 9-11 Truth? Aliens? Nephilim? Angels and Fallen Angels? Theistic Evolution? Bible Code? Mystery Babylon? etc. etc. etc.
Do you really think I can talk about these things with my pastor? Hardly. He is still a good man and I learn a great deal from him and everyone. But some topics are "The Secret Forbidden Knowledge," and are avoided like the plague in most Churches. Lol. You must know this.
There are those faithful Christians and some are indeed pastors, who do go further, go down the rabbit hole, they are not afraid, and they do not avoid the hard topics all mentioned above facing our times. And yes GOD's word talks about all of it. So if GOD's word talks about it, why can't we? We should. I'm pretty sure he wants us to know about all of it, because he put it in his word. He wants us to know. He doesn't want us to be fooled. "Without a vision my people perish."
And yes, I do read their books and studies:
PhD Chuck Missler
PhD Michael Heiser
David Flynn
Tim McHyde
PhD David Jeremiah
and many others . . .
So what about that mystery missile? Back on topic . . .
By the way, the event on 11-8-10 off of L.A., CA, either happened as many witnessed it, or it didn't.
This isn't a conspiracy. It is easily verified as a missile or jet. There is empirical evidence. Facts are facts. It is provable. No faith involved what-so-ever.
Now why would people want to lie about what the truth of the event was, is a whole other story. What are they hiding? Why would they do this? To avoid panic? It's not the act that gets you into trouble, but often it is the cover-up.
People should simply tell the truth, including governments.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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I'd like to know where Klimmer is truly comin' from I'm not sure that I'd want to know.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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Klimmer said the 3D showed the missile rose steeply and slowly, now he's saying it was ripping downrange.
Obviously his 3D was not much help here.
And I can't wait for the guys in an optical science forum to see his 3D.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 21, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 22, 2010 - 02:54am PT
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So Tony.
"you're not answering the questions, just phulishly ridiculing them, attempting to place yourself on a plateau so far above us all that your mere scorn will suffice. great strategy, unfortunately so overused on ST that no one cringes from it any more."
I was answering the questions. Sorry, that I tried to use the fact that I know something about meteorology when I answered your questions that is about meteorology. I forgot that knowledge is not allowed in this threads.
""can change very abruptly"? are we looking at the same postings by monolith, immediately above? are you proposing that humidity varies in a wild overlay of wet and dry noodles to produce all that onning and offing? sounds like fantasyland to me."
I understand that it sounds like fantasyland to someone without knowledge about the atmosphere but why do you point that out? It is your own problem that you have no knowledge.
"so, shouldn't chemtrails mostly be appearing in cirrus skies? but one of their specialties is filling up the clear, clear blue."
Not where I live and I have not seen any picture that show your point either. It seems to be ordinary cirrus clouds in all pics I have seen.
Can you show me a pic where this happens? I am not saying that it might not happen but there is obviously a strong correlation with long lasting contrails and cirrus clouds.
"i'd like to see some 40-year-old photos of chemtrail-filled skies, laid down by 707s. not worried about that, however. as we all know in these information wars, ask, and it shall be given unto you. "
http://contrailscience.com/contrail-photos-through-history/
But really. Do you realize that the number of flights was probably much lower 40 years ago? Do you believe that is relevant at all?
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 22, 2010 - 03:20am PT
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It's pretty obvious that where the contrail start and stop is where the
pilots are turning on and off the nozzles that spray the chemicals into the air to control the population. Duh. ;)
Don't need 3D to see that.
Tony Bird = Mr. Knowitall
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 22, 2010 - 03:37am PT
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You can't get the lighting in the image from the news video from the northern 'missile' track under the blue arrow - impossible with that sun azimuth. So at the very least the photo isn't of that northern track as it's north of solar azimuth and the track in the news video was clearly south of it. That in itself sh#t cans any and all assumptions about the northern track being related to the news video image. Unless of course aliens are now manipulating the solar azimuth.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 22, 2010 - 09:19am PT
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HJ,
You do know that the NOAA calculator calculating the azimuth of the setting Sun on 11-8-10 = 250 degrees is from L.A. downtown city center don't you?
Not Long Beach Harbor.
Misstakes like this will ruin you.
All I have to do is make a few corrections on my graphics since I now know exactly the location of the launch, it won't change the truth of the matter, one bit.
Twas a missile.
And yes, the exhaust/vapor plume was back-lite from the right side (Northish) of the plume. All the imagery, video, and stereograms easily show that. But I have said that from the get-go.
Why do you keep fighting this losing battle?
Got TG to do this holiday. I will not be able to check in as much.
MMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, Pumpkin Pie with whip-cream my favorite.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 22, 2010 - 10:04am PT
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Sorry, that I tried to use the fact that I know something about meteorology when I answered your questions that is about meteorology. I forgot that knowledge is not allowed in this threads.
Ding, ding, ding! Raymond has figured out the rules for these discussions. Now he can decide if he wants to play or not.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 22, 2010 - 10:42am PT
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You do know that the NOAA calculator calculating the azimuth of the setting Sun on 11-8-10 = 250 degrees is from L.A. downtown city center don't you?
Not Long Beach Harbor.
Misstakes like this will ruin you.
Another easily checked assertion (with a generous serving of posturing) from Klimmer that is totally wrong.
LA 250.22
LB 250.25
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 22, 2010 - 10:53am PT
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your memphis belle thing needs a link, mono--doesn't play on ST without encapsulation. if it's a long movie, it also needs a time location. the photo i'm seeing shows the leading edge of contrail formation behind a large four-engine propeller-driven airplane, not the abrupt curtailment of contrail formation.
one factor in all this could be the slowing of the airplane--funny none of the geniuses on here have thought of that yet. remember, you heard it here first, from a fellow who's willing to consider all sides of an argument. :-D
i have to reject "contrail photos through history", an obviously concocted ad hoc effort to debunk chemtrail arguments. rules of evidence never allow casual photography, and yet we are peppered with pictures of western mountains that could have been taken any time since the invention of color photography and photoshopped as one pleases. pull out a photo, raymond, from your personal album when you hiked shasta in, say, 1968. and then i'm afraid we're going to have to vet you as a genuine climber here. you've obviously just joined this forum and dived into what can only be called a Klimmer Special, using a lighthearted pseudonym.
if we could get healyje's tongue back from the cat on this subject, we might get somewhere. meanwhile i will enjoy being klimmer's second in the little duel shaping up with cragman.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 22, 2010 - 10:56am PT
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your memphis belle thing needs a link, mono--doesn't play on ST without encapsulation. if it's a long movie, it also needs a time location. the photo i'm seeing shows the leading edge of contrail formation behind a large four-engine propeller-driven airplane, not the abrupt curtailment of contrail formation.
Golly Gee Tony, the link was right above it.
And I said look at 42 sec.
And the screen cap is right from the moment the contrail stopped.
Are you really so dense in person?
Jeebus, chemtrail folks are the dumbest of the dumb, and extremely paranoid.
Here's the whole post, as you probably don't know how to go back:
Oh Tony, you have much to learn.
Here's a WW2 vid of contrails from bombers. Were we spraying back then?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfOrez6q7WM
Check out at 42 seconds. Watch the contrail sputter, then at 48 they've stopped completely.
Can we put this sudden stopping contrail crap to bed now?
^^^^^^^Look Tony, the contrails have suddenly stopped^^^^^^^^
No wonder you were so impacted by GC's pics. You see the shiny pic, get so distracted you can't think straight or read the text anymore.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 22, 2010 - 11:52am PT
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k, mono, my bad--was trying to activate the photo, then went googling memphis belle.
yes, agreed, those movies do show interruptions in the production of propeller-craft contrails, i'm sure at relatively low altitude and near saturated humidity. i don't think you have the expertise to explain them, however, dodging around these questions the way raymond does. it would take a combination of both aeronautical and meteorological expertise. i don't pretend to either, but i'll bet i'm a shade in front of you on meteorology.
let me push the question to you a little further, going back to the principles of dew point. your ww2 bombers are engaged in an apparently steady state which really involves considerable dynamics. we see the same thing with lenticular clouds--they look like flying saucers parked over mountains but in reality disclose a rather rapid flow of air up into and then back down out of below-the-dew-point pressure. pardon the use of the words steady state and flying saucer, i assure you it's simply for description.
so, let's look at your bombers. one of the sequences shows a very quick interruption and resumption of the contrail. we could imagine the pilot cutting the engines playfully for a half second--that might interrupt the dynamics. or even slowing down a tad. or maybe some glitch in the fuel feed to the four engines? i dunno. the other alternative would be a "pocket" in the air--slightly lower temperature, pressure, or humidity? are such things possible?
going over to the abrupt curtailment, we seem to have contrail-producing bombers right alongside non-contrail-producing ones. we also have photographs out the back of one bomber which isn't producing contrails, else they would be obliterating all the others producing contrails in the photograph.
not an expert on the history of air warfare here, but it kinda looks like a lot of intentional production, especially in the examples of apparently shutting things on and off. perhaps the military was doing this on purpose--creating cloud cover for bombing runs? was there technology for that back then?
to be fair to this thread--after all, we do have a Klimmer Special for chemtrail buffs--this question was raised because--was it you, mono?--someone suggested that we were looking at abruptly curtailed contrails from flight 808, rather than a missile headed west. the satellite photo would bear that out, a thin contrail, chemtrail, whatever, heading east, helpfully pointed out by a big blue arrow, and then ending somewhere out off santa barbara before getting to santa monica bay. still, as i've pointed out before, the newspeople would only have had to stare at the sky a minute longer to see the plane itself, obviously indicated by the trajectory.
klimmer, i have to say that the fact that this did not appear in either the santa barbara or ventura newspapers is a strike against the missile argument. locals around there are used to the vandenburg doings which i never pay attention to, and there would be a lot of local sensitivity to an unannounced launch. on the other hand, the pentagon did not have this information at its fingertips. you'd think all those military geniuses--there must be at least 1,000 experts on both aeronautics and meteorology in that building--would have known right away. pardon my being so suspicious, but i think they're even now just learning the usefulness of chemtrails in public relations.
ron's alleged russian report needs some vetting. it looks like it was inserted on a cnn page, not reported there.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 22, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
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The flight paths have been shown several times Rox, pay attention.
Go to that government run disinfo site contrailscience if you want to see the flight superimposed on the Rick Warren pics.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 22, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
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Jeezus what a bastion of whackjobs and kookery.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 22, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
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Klimmer:
You said “I can now also very accurately triangulate to the actual launch location in the Pacific Ocean. I have great data now all around.”
Did you find Latitude 33° 14’ 13.7 N, Longitude 119° 28’ 22 W. Same situation in Dec 2009.
Sometimes one or a group [cluster] “seeks to better understand”
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 22, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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Those are some shitastic sources you got there Ron.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 22, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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so, let's look at your bombers. one of the sequences shows a very quick interruption and resumption of the contrail. we could imagine the pilot cutting the engines playfully for a half second--that might interrupt the dynamics. or even slowing down a tad. or maybe some glitch in the fuel feed to the four engines? i dunno. the other alternative would be a "pocket" in the air--slightly lower temperature, pressure, or humidity? are such things possible?
Yes. We call them clouds.
Yet you claim to have some expertise in meteorology? Ha.
not an expert on the history of air warfare here, but it kinda looks like a lot of intentional production, especially in the examples of apparently shutting things on and off. perhaps the military was doing this on purpose--creating cloud cover for bombing runs? was there technology for that back then?
The military was very interested in and did a lot of research on the formation of contrails.
What conditions caused them to form, why some planes made them and others didn’t etc.
Why? Contrails make planes easy to spot, which is a bad thing in a war.
March 1943 Popular Science
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 22, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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k, shack, since you're the self-proclaimed expert now, tell us why some contrails disappear shortly afterward and others expand and expand and fill the sky--especially if they're caused by such a limited amount of extra vapor, what dribbles off an engine exhaust.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
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Perhaps some of them are out of contrail. Like some posters here.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 22, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
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Tony, you can apply some more logic to the situation to come up with some answers. WW2 pilots obviously don't want contrails forming so if they can do something to stop them, they would. Since contrails do form, they don't have the ability to stop them, other than giving up the mission.
You did see that the contrails stopped completely. So you can assume that the planes entered an area where conditions were not right for them forming.
As in a lot of fluid dynamics problems, there are boundary anomalies. So towards the edge of these areas, there will be clumps of areas that do form contrails and those that do not. That's where the sputtering happens, followed by complete dissapearance.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 22, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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especially if they're caused by such a limited amount of extra vapor, what dribbles off an engine exhaust.
I'm not much of a hand holder, but I'll try...
First,
Your assumption that exhaust only contains a small amount of water vapor, is incorrect.
The 2 main byproducts of hydrocarbon fuel combustion are carbon dioxide and water vapor.
I guess I have to explain why that is?
You car intakes AIR* and combines it with fuel, then in the cylinder it gets COMPRESSED and then ignighted, then EXHAUSTED.
Even your car puts out enough water vapor in it's exhaust to make a giant cloud on a cold winter morning, and probably even drips water from the tailpipe sometimes, right? And that's with a small internal combustion engine.
Second, compared to internal combustion engines like on prop planes etc..,
a jet engine consumes a massive ammount of air.
Jet engines are by design, one giant compressor!
You see where I'm going with this?
They consume and compress thousands of cubic feet of air a second.
One engine from a new 767-400ER, at takeoff power, could inflate the goodyear blimp in 7 seconds,
according to a Boeing employee.
Once this compressed air meets the freezing temps outside at 39,000 feet...
instant ice crystals. How long they persist depends on a bunch of variables.
Tony, these "pockets" of air with different conditions you seem so skeptical of, are something that can be seen in clouds, but also you already knew about them, if you have ever been in an airliner.
Those "bumps"...the turbulance you felt, as you would know, are caused by different wind speeds, temperature, humidity etc.
Nothing mystical about it.
*AIR contains water vapor. How much depends on relative humidity, temp, etc.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Nov 22, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
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888
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2010 - 12:02am PT
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I see you haven't plotted 250 from Long Beach. Can't light up the north side of a 'missile' track when the sun is south of it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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yes, i feel bumps on flights. your explanations make as much sense as any. i could accept them, except that i have no memory of these outrageously expansive trails in the places i've lived until about 15-20 years ago. what i do remember are skies with natural clouds, beautiful clouds. now, in southern california, as often as not, the skies are full of obviously straight-laid, airplane-created clouds, and none of them lead down to LAX. and these clouds just expand and expand, weaving into each other and filling the skies. i've lived in chicago and minneapolis, also hubs of air traffic, and all i remember are the "normal" contrails, the ones which disappear shortly after they appear, in spite of your elaborate explanations.
this is experience and memory and even though i'm 63 years old, there isn't much wrong with my memory, although i'm not stupid enough to think that memories are perfect and entirely accurate. when i raise this issue, no one wants to chime in, one way or the other. you can show me web pages created in the past year or two to debunk all the chemtrail paranoia. such web pages double my suspicion, like the wizard of oz bellowing at me to pay absolutely no attention to the little man behind the curtain. why can't i can't get any of the older climbers here to give a little testimony from the field--back me up or contradict me, but be a real climber i know on here. i think this group ought to be one of the best qualified for it, spending time under the sky and noticing nature.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 23, 2010 - 12:44am PT
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My personal belief is that we are seeing larger, more persisting contrails
due to the evolution of the jet engine.
They continually make design changes to increase efficiency.
The newer jets engines suck in larger quantities of air and tend to make much larger contrails.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 02:21am PT
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Yes, but since they are also operating at higher pressures and temperatures
it seems they should be burning the water vapor off to a greater degree (no pun
intended} than older engines.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 23, 2010 - 03:17am PT
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it seems they should be burning the water vapor off
Burn off water vapor? Where would it go? What would it become? something other than H2O?
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michaeld
Sport climber
Near Tahoe, CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 03:28am PT
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"Tony B"
k, shack, since you're the self-proclaimed expert now, tell us why some contrails disappear shortly afterward and others expand and expand and fill the sky-
Wind at that altitude. Just because it's not windy at ground level, doesn't mean at 30,000+ feet its dead still. Some will disappear shortly after because of the sun exposure, evaporating it fully.
"Tony B"
-especially if they're caused by such a limited amount of extra vapor, what dribbles off an engine exhaust.//
Depends on the moisture in the air at that altitude/pressure density. The heat of the engine cowling, how cold the wings are at 30,000+ feet, deicing during a really cold flight also.
When an airliner is flying at an altitude of 30,000 feet, the temperature of the air outside may be as low as -30 F.
But what do I know, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I know nothing but what Oprah and CNN tell me while I eat my Ben&Jerry's.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 23, 2010 - 05:36am PT
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Tony, congratulation you are worse than I expected.
"i have to reject "contrail photos through history", an obviously concocted ad hoc effort to debunk chemtrail arguments. rules of evidence never allow casual photography, and yet we are peppered with pictures of western mountains that could have been taken any time since the invention of color photography and photoshopped as one pleases."
Yes, everything is a hoax. Where are your evidence for your claims?
"pull out a photo, raymond, from your personal album when you hiked shasta in, say, 1968."
Where are your evidence? Why should I post photos when you never back up anything you write? Where are your photos showing the clear skies with all contrails? Remember to also prove without a doubt that they are the real deal.
"and then i'm afraid we're going to have to vet you as a genuine climber here. you've obviously just joined this forum and dived into what can only be called a Klimmer Special, using a lighthearted pseudonym."
You are obviously an idiot that can't even try to find what is true before spouting nonsense.
My profile shows that I have posted 244 times on this forum and the first post was posted Sep 27, 2006
You can also find posts about climbing but I don't know why it matters.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 23, 2010 - 05:44am PT
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"don't think you have the expertise to explain them, however, dodging around these questions the way raymond does. "
What questions am I dodging?
"k, shack, since you're the self-proclaimed expert now, tell us why some contrails disappear shortly afterward and others expand and expand and fill the sky--especially if they're caused by such a limited amount of extra vapor, what dribbles off an engine exhaust. "
What if you at least tried to read the wikipage about contrails?
Contrails depends on:
Amount of water vapour in the air.
Temperature of the air.
Number of particles in the air.
It can also be a good idea to take into account that the maximum humidity level (before cloud formation) is very low at low temperatures.
The water vapour part should be very obvious for everyone that have looked at the sky a couple of times.
The chemtrail conspiracy theory is still probably the most stupid one I have seen because it really seems to be based on an almost completely lack of understanding of the atmosphere. It is just "I don't understand phenomena x so conspiracy y must be true".
Tony B is a clear example of that thinking.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 23, 2010 - 05:46am PT
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I haven't had the time or energy to read through this large thread but have a question, seeing all the arguing about contrails?
Aren't all flights near urban areas tracked contantly by air traffic controllers? Why would the government have ANY problem identifying any commercial flight that was photographed at a known time and place. Isn't it a bad sign that they would have to throw up their hands and say "We don't know but don't think there's any evidence there's a threat"
Given they don't have the truth on hand that could easily be verified, seems safe to assume they are lying about what they don't care to talk about
PEace
Karl
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 23, 2010 - 05:53am PT
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What are you talking about Karl? I have read far from everything about this issue but it was clear very early that at least one airplane flow in that area at that time. Did the military really claim that they didn't know that?
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 11:18am PT
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i think it is very nice that our government goes out of it's way to - hide aliens - shoot missiles - hide jimmy haffa or what ever his name was - & do all the things that they do just so all the bored nuts in this country have something to do.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 11:22am PT
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reilly and shack are getting back to dew point science. if it's water vapor, it isn't clouds, it's invisible gas. shack and mono are trying to tell us a jet engine adds a lot of vapor to the air, enough to increase humidity to the point of condensation, somehow so much that, when the humidity is high, it expands to incredible volumes of visible clouds in the wide, wide sky. i'm not saying this doesn't happen, necessarily. but on the other hand, we're painting a picture here of such abrupt variation of dew point factors in the upper troposphere that this process also seems to run up against virtual brick walls, and frequently. look at mono's photos again, especially the second one. i don't feel bumps that often on jet rides. a little guy behind the curtain flicking a switch makes more sense.
in that same vein, i tend to think pressure is more of a factor than humidity. that's my prejudice, having spent much time at the elevations of cloud formation and watching it happen firsthand as a function of altitude, and therefore pressure. and you know what bears me out? a contrail forming at a wingtip, as we're seeing in so much of your "debunking" bunk here. no exhaust injection into the air goes on at a wingtip.
i'm still waiting for a little oral history from oldfart climbers. karl?
the recentness of this phenomenal ubiquitousness (pardon the french) is what bothers me. i suspect shack notices this too, if he's speculating about how development of engine technology might be involved. again, i'm not discounting that. what bothers me is the attack mentality of doberman pincers like phule, hellbent to stamp out every itty bit of conspiracy theory while ignoring many aspects of an argument.
so phule, let's make a few rules. first, tell us what a carabiner is for. second, try putting all these links in your own words instead of making me look at webpage after webpage. there's this basic rule of thumb: if you can't put it in your own words, you don't understand it, you're just reading what someone else wrote and agreeing with it.
congrats on #900, fort. #1,000 is the real plum. what is it about a Klimmer Special?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 11:31am PT
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Shack,
I was just wondering aloud but it seems that under those pressures and
temperatures the water vapor could turn into dihydrogen monoxide plus ozone.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 11:48am PT
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Yes, Tony, you are right about the pressure. Rapid pressure changes happen in an engine and in a wingtip vortice.
Read the explanation of wingtip contrail formation.
The lowering of the temperature in the lower pressure area causes condensation from the high humidity.
So contrails are a function of pressure, temperature, humidity.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
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so--does that mean we can discount the vapor-exhaust arguments entirely?
i hate to point this out, but do you see how far from consensus we are here?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
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I don't understand Tony.
Look into cloud seeding if you want to learn about condensation from particles.
Multiple processes could be happening in engine contrail formation.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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my point is the increase in recent activity. it would be easy to test--take some air samples, get some close-up shots of planes up there. you won't find any of this on the debunking pages. but don't ask me to trust the government with doing it. the difficult part will be getting credible information during our age of terror paranoia when the pentagon nevertheless doesn't have a clue about what this was, except after a week of blogger analysis.
you're accepting the recent activity, mono. i'm guessing that you're young enough to have grown up under such skies, which you consider "normal". i haven't--there's a sea change up there. this didn't happen during the era of the 707, and i don't think changes in jet engines since then would account for it, especially, as some of you guys are arguing, if exaggerated contrails are merely the result of atmospheric conditions.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
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yes, i feel bumps on flights. your explanations make as much sense as any. i could accept them, except that i have no memory of these outrageously expansive trails in the places i've lived until about 15-20 years ago. what i do remember are skies with natural clouds, beautiful clouds. now, in southern california, as often as not, the skies are full of obviously straight-laid, airplane-created clouds, and none of them lead down to LAX. and these clouds just expand and expand, weaving into each other and filling the skies. i've lived in chicago and minneapolis, also hubs of air traffic, and all i remember are the "normal" contrails, the ones which disappear shortly after they appear, in spite of your elaborate explanations.
I'm 58 and my father was a United pilot. We lived in Mountain View, Boston, and Chicago while I was growing up and I've never known a time when there weren't contrails. In earlier decades there simply wasn't nearly the level of air traffic there is today, but there has always been contrails. I mentioned all this to him and he got a real laugh out of it and couldn't believe this sort of nonsense was still going on.
Again, you'd have to be lunatic to think it's possible to set up an end-to-end supply chain and the logistics necessary to do it in secret. Tens of thousands of people would have to be employed in the endeavor - to what possible end? For what economic or political benefit? Why would anyone spend the money to do it? If it's been happening for decades what have been the tangible benefits delivered that would sustain funding?
It's obvious to me that if you think that normal jet contrails are anything but that then it's no leap at all to Nessie, aliens, interdimensional sasquatch, 14 secret societies that all rule the earth, and of course god. Or rather really I suspect that maybe it's actually the religion exposure - god just isn't 'real' or active enough and so you feel compelled to fill in all these subdomains to really fill the void for an inactive god - a sort of sub-polytheism. The power of mythology and wives tales is certainly enduring.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 23, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
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FAA Awards SpaceX First Ever Commercial License to Re-Enter Spacecraft from Orbit
Hawthorne, CA – Since the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Office of Commercial Space Transportation was created in 1984, it has issued licenses for more than 200 launches.
On Monday, November 22nd, the FAA made SpaceX the first-ever commercial company to receive a license to re-enter a spacecraft from orbit.
Next month, SpaceX is planning to launch its Dragon spacecraft into low-Earth orbit atop a Falcon 9 rocket. The Dragon capsule is expected to orbit the Earth at speeds greater than 17,000 miles per hour, reenter the Earth’s atmosphere, and land in the Pacific Ocean a few hours later.
This will be the first attempt by a commercial company to recover a spacecraft reentering from low-Earth orbit. It is a feat performed by only 6 nations or governmental agencies: the United States, Russia, China, Japan, India, and the European Space Agency.
It is also the first flight under NASA’s Commercial Orbital Transportation Services (COTS) program to develop commercial supply services to the International Space Station and encourage the growth of the commercial space industry. After the Space Shuttle retires, SpaceX will make at least 12 flights to carry cargo to and from the International Space Station as part of a Commercial Resupply Services (CRS) contract for NASA. The Falcon 9 rocket and Dragon spacecraft were designed to one day carry astronauts; both the COTS and CRS missions will yield valuable flight experience towards this goal.
The license is valid for 1 year from the date of issue.
About SpaceX
SpaceX is developing a family of launch vehicles and spacecraft that will increase reliability and performance of space transportation, while ultimately reducing costs by a factor of ten. With the Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 rockets, SpaceX has a diverse manifest of launches to deliver commercial satellites to orbit. After the Space Shuttle retires, the Falcon 9 and SpaceX’s Dragon spacecraft will start carrying cargo, including live plants and animals, to and from the International Space Station for NASA. Falcon 9 and Dragon were developed to one day carry astronauts.
Founded in 2002, SpaceX is a private company owned by management and employees, with minority investments from Founders Fund, Draper Fisher Jurvetson, and Valor Equity Partners. The company has over 1,100 employees in California, Texas and Florida. For more information, and to watch the video of the first Falcon 9 launch, visit the SpaceX website at SpaceX.com.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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what pressure tony the higher you get the less pressure there is. planes - jets make there own pressure as they push through the air. thats how they fly- high pressure under wing low pressure above the wing. if you spent your childhood looking out at the pacific ocean from l.a. - s.f. - s.d. you would have seen many of these con trails.
there is nothing new here -but if you want something to talk about go for it.
for the nuts that said there were no planes in the sky in that area - there are at least 6000 aircraft over the U.S. at any time & at least 400 aircraft coming to the U.S. form the east at any time.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 23, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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"so phule, let's make a few rules. first, tell us what a carabiner is for."
Do people have do to everything for you? You make claims but never ever seems to do any research by your self. Please read my old posts or shut up.
Why is my climbing credential even important to you?
"second, try putting all these links in your own words instead of making me look at webpage after webpage."
Sorry, I should do exactly everything for you. I made a link to a research paper from 1970 that talk about what you call chemtrails, I have talked about the wiki page and given you a link to some pics. Is that really to much for you to look through?
"there's this basic rule of thumb: if you can't put it in your own words, you don't understand it, you're just reading what someone else wrote and agreeing with it."
One rule in regard to you is that you show that you are completely clueless almost every time you use your own words.
What should I do to make you happy?
Science is not allowed.
Links are not allowed.
My short explanations are not allowed.
What really can I say? Air humidity places a large role in contrails formation (and all cloud formation). A convective cloud or contrail in very dry air would vanish fast because the high concentration of humidity/water dropplets/ice dissipate to the air around and the cloud disappear.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 23, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
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"you're accepting the recent activity, mono. i'm guessing that you're young enough to have grown up under such skies, which you consider "normal". i haven't--there's a sea change up there. this didn't happen during the era of the 707, and i don't think changes in jet engines since then would account for it, especially, as some of you guys are arguing, if exaggerated contrails are merely the result of atmospheric conditions. "
But people wrote scientific articles about it 1970... Did you read article or is reading articles simply not your style?
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 23, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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"so--does that mean we can discount the vapor-exhaust arguments entirely?"
Why didn't you even read the explanation in mono's pic? It was also about the vapor-exhaust.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Near Tahoe, CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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Tony B, when was the last time you were in an airplane that goes above 30,000feet?
Or was it also the government's idea to put chemicals in that Southwest 737 to spray over the lands.
Commercial planes under FAR 135 HAVE to be at Max Fuel Weight prior to taking off. Sometimes those trips aren't long enough to burn all that fuel, and these Air Carriers ALSO have a MAX LANDING WEIGHT, which is why they have to dump all that fuel. Maybe those are the chemicals you're talking about?
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MisterAnswers
Social climber
Ark on the Moon
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Nov 23, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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Question: What important Internet Forum Law has Raymond Phule forgotten?
Answer: Arguing with idiots on an internet forum makes you an idiot.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Near Tahoe, CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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Ron Anderson, you must be wrong.
It's the government obviously spraying everyone over the ocean. Gosh.
It'll be way too hard to explain the whole Thrust / Speed / Weight thing. And people will still think it's a UFO / Crop Duster / Swamp Gas.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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Just a reminder Ron,,,
The bottom right in your pic is a known flight, Dec 31st, last year, not the mystery 'missile'.
You let your eyes fool you again. Here it is enlarged.
And viewed from an angle:
twas a jet
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 23, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
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your climbing credentials are important, raymond. got any? it would make you a lot more credible, at least to me. if you're not a climber, that's fine. admit you're here to stomp on conspiracy theorists because you hate them. honesty is good for the soul. i'd be much more comfortable with you, if that's all the case, and you own up to it. however if you're a climber, talk about that too. you never know when having something in common like that can help a discussion.
no, links are not okay, except for background and reference for people who wish to pursue them. they do not constitute the core of any discussion. if you read all the books i've read in my life you'd probably be thinking exactly like me, but i don't expect you to do that. i could link you to any number of web pages which take chemtrails seriously, but you probably wouldn't look at them either. frankly, none of them are that good, but i still think the subject is worth taking seriously, not only because of what i notice in the sky but because of our increasingly manipulative and lying government.
as for that 1970 article, all i'm getting from your link is a brief abstract. sorry, doesn't seem to say a hell of a lot.
michaeld, i fly 2-3 times a year. i notice that temperatures at 30,000 are generally quite a bit colder than -30, which someone mentioned previously. seems like it's more like -60 to -70. they post those things on the trip log. and the flying has been pretty smooth. maybe i hit good weather.
you'll have to explain some of that other stuff. we're getting fuel dumped at random across the world's environments on a regular basis just so the planes meet a landing weight requirement? gawd, the things you can learn on ST. chicken little should wear safety goggles.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 23, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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Raymond, you have to understand the conspiracy droids here are very paranoid, so when they see a new name in these threads they assume you are a government agent. I've been accused, as well as GC. Tony even thought the people behind contrailscience were reading this thread and reacting.
Funny isn't it?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 23, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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Shouldn't contrailscience be spelt contrail "science"?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
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We know you guys are tools of tricky dicky Cheney ......
We also know you buy your turkey from him for this thanks the giving stuff .....
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 23, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
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I fly 3 to 5 round trips to various places every month.
I live in Reno so I know what flying in turbulance is all about.
Tony, what is the point of stating a fact if you are simply going to dismiss it and stating that you don't believe it with no evidence to support your position?
You won't look at any link we post cuz of your scepticism, yet you state that you have read many books....How were you able to tell truth from lie in the books you've read? Or did you think they were 100% accurate....cuz it's a book?
Monday when I fly to Denver, should I ask the pilot some pointed questions and see if I can catch him in a lie? ;)
I should be like..."Hey, where's that chemtrail switch again?"
Hahaha!
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Nov 23, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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Please folks, don't ignore the real truth. The government is hiding it from you.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 24, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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Please folks, don't ignore the real truth. The government is hiding it from you.
Which real truth is that?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 24, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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So do you guys (no women on the whackjob threads) agree that there was or wasn't a rocket, that may have been a plane, and that it did or didn't have a contrail?
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 24, 2010 - 01:20am PT
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Russians are sure convinced -they even named the class and the sub type it came from...
According to Whom? and based on what? the KCAL footage?
The Pentagon didn't just say 'no threat'...
Col. Dave Lapan, a spokesman for the Pentagon, said later Tuesday that while there is no evidence that the contrail was left by a missile the department is still investigating.
No Defense Department units reported launches at the time. The North American Aerospace Defense Command and the U.S. Northern Command did not report any foreign missile launches off the California coast, Lapan added. Regardless, there was no threat to the United States, he said.
and the FAA didn't say there were no planes in the area...
“The FAA ran radar replays of a large area west of Los Angeles based on media reports of the possible missile launch at approximately 5 p.m. (PT) on Monday. The radar replays did not reveal any fast moving, unidentified targets in that area,” said FAA spokesman Ian Gregor. “The FAA did not receive reports … of unusual sightings from pilots who were flying in the area on Monday afternoon.
and how about what the helicopter pilot actually said.
This was not the first one of these he had seen in the previous days..
Watch the interview with him...at about the 40 second mark.
Helicopter Pilot Interview
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 24, 2010 - 02:03am PT
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Ron, that story is NOT a CNN story. It is an iReport!
Here is what the CNN website has to say about iReports:
Welcome to iReport, where people take part in the news with CNN. Your voice, together with other iReporters, helps shape how and what CNN covers every day.
So you know: iReport is the way people like you report the news. The stories in this section are not edited, fact-checked or screened before they post. Only ones marked 'CNN iReport' have been vetted by CNN.
Sorry Ron, no 'CNN iReport' on this one.
Just a made up story submitted by some dude that is laughing his ass off right now.
See the report here
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michaeld
Sport climber
Near Tahoe, CA
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Nov 24, 2010 - 02:19am PT
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Monolith -
Those 2 pics you posted, the second of course was a contrail.
Explain how you can see the ENTIRE "contrail" from the "airplane" in the first picture from the horizon on. How is it still so thick 1500+/- miles away?
I'd draw pictures but my mouse hand is killing me. Too much gym climbing.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Nov 24, 2010 - 02:46am PT
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1500+/- miles away?
Huh? Where did you get that from.
Maybe a couple hundred max.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 24, 2010 - 03:33am PT
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"your climbing credentials are important, raymond. got any? it would make you a lot more credible, at least to me. if you're not a climber, that's fine. admit you're here to stomp on conspiracy theorists because you hate them. honesty is good for the soul. i'd be much more comfortable with you, if that's all the case, and you own up to it. however if you're a climber, talk about that too. you never know when having something in common like that can help a discussion."
What the hell is wrong with you Tony? All forum users except you could probably only use something like 30 seconds to find a couple of my climbing posts on this forum.
Are you really that dense that you can't do anything except spouting nonsense?
"no, links are not okay, except for background and reference for people who wish to pursue them."
So an article from 1970 talking about "chemtrails" and showing pictures about "chemtrails" is not a valid evidence against your claims?
"if you read all the books i've read in my life you'd probably be thinking exactly like me, but i don't expect you to do that."
To late. I have already read a book.
"i could link you to any number of web pages which take chemtrails seriously, but you probably wouldn't look at them either. frankly, none of them are that good, but i still think the subject is worth taking seriously, not only because of what i notice in the sky but because of our increasingly manipulative and lying government."
So you equate science articles to conspiracy webpages. Your choice.
"as for that 1970 article, all i'm getting from your link is a brief abstract. sorry, doesn't seem to say a hell of a lot."
Sorry, I forgot that you can't use links. You can always click on the link called PDF and find the full text.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 24, 2010 - 03:51am PT
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Raymond, you have to understand the conspiracy droids here are very paranoid, so when they see a new name in these threads they assume you are a government agent. I've been accused, as well as GC. Tony even thought the people behind contrailscience were reading this thread and reacting.
Funny isn't it?
It is one thing to be paranoid but it is just stupidity when he can find evidence against his accusation by clicking on two buttons and scroll down a little on a page.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 24, 2010 - 10:30am PT
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the only sure way, dingus, is to avoid these threads entirely. once you check in, fishhooks galore. we're gonna get you too.
the pdf didn't link for me at first, and it looked like one of those pages where you have to pay to go beyond the abstract. and yes, raymond, you seem to have had a lot of interest in climbing until the past year. is your last name really phule? if it is, you have nothing but sympathy from a fellow who has had to live with a dumb last name all his life. if it isn't, i suggest you consider changing it. you will eventually find it burdensome.
your article gives one photo of a large contrail and one photo of an overcast sky. there's some commendable environmentalist concern about these things, which seems to have dead-ended with that article. sierra clubbers devote too much to their green junketing to be concerned about aircraft pollution. for credibility, your article gives out loads of scientific gobbledy-gook to demonstrate what a plowboy who went to high school could tell you: like their good buddies the clouds, contrails block the sun, reduce ultraviolet, increase infrared, and won't affect the earth much unless there's a lot of them. i wonder if i could get a job writing abstracts.
there are a couple items out there which you fellas probably haven't come across, but i'll bet klimmer knows about them. (klimmer? you still around?) you might be able to find them on the internet if you dig for them, or they may be gone by now. i bring them up because they have a lot to do with why i won't let go of this issue. i have to say up front that i don't trust them, but that doesn't mean i should ignore them. they're unverifiable, but hard to forget. as tom cochrane said on one of the other threads, there is a maze of truth and disinformation going on, and there seems to be deliberate efforts to scramble the two.
one of these items is a photograph circulated rather widely about three years ago of an airplane interior supposedly equipped for spraying chemtrails. very elaborately equipped. someone took great pains to hoax this. the other is a narrative by an alleged airport employee telling of chemtrail systems installed on regular commercial flights and kept hush-hush, with those in the know forbidden to talk about it. if you don't think things have gotten real serious around airports, go stand in a check-in line. i have also met a number of people who work in aerospace who seem to believe in "chemtrails". they have experience and credentials and will speak about it privately. for some reason aluminum and boron compounds are mentioned consistently. often it's tied to the h.a.a.r.p. program. i'm afraid 1943 popular mechanics illustrations and two photos over boulder, colorado, in 1970 aren't enough to trump all this, at least for me.
in a not unrelated matter, since there seem to be so many scientific eggs here, check out the chemistry of the shoe bomber, which has been used as an excuse to ratchet up airport security to the point of aggressive and wholesale humiliation. the reply to "don't touch my junk" is now "you give up a lot of your rights when you buy that airline ticket". i seems you can't even just turn around and go home--you've become eternally suspicious because you got proprietary about your junk. meanwhile, as i delight to point out, air traffic and air defense doesn't seem to know what goes on 30 miles off los angeles.
i forget the other chemical, but i remember the important points. one of the chemicals is 100 percent hydrogen peroxide. what you can buy at the drug store is two percent. supposedly you could smuggle these two chemicals onboard in a couple perfume bottles, mix them in the bathroom, and blow up the plane. heck, why even mix them in the bathroom? just mix 'em right in your seat while people are watching the tube, we're all headed for our 70 virgins, right?
doesn't quite work that way. this particular explosive has a bad reputation even among terrorists because it's difficult to produce and then difficult to handle safely after it's produced. this information was reliably reported in one of those leading british newspapers a short time after the shoe bomber, but, as with other things, you'll probably find a good information war raging over it now. in order to get this explosive, you need a laboratory with strictly regulated temperatures, something like around 50F, and you have to vent away all the sulfuric acid fumes which are immediately produced. the explosive doesn't blow right up--it appears in the matrix as tiny, snowflake-like crystals, which must then be carefully harvested and perhaps dried and stored properly, who knows and who the hell cares? no airplane interior offers 50-degree temperatures and the fumes would overwhelm the guy in the restroom before he could slip the laboratory filter out of his hat. it will also distract his seatmate from the movie du jour.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 24, 2010 - 11:08am PT
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Michaeld, the contrail length is more like 100 miles and out to sea.
The recent episode was filmed for about 10 minutes with jets known to go about 500mph.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Nov 24, 2010 - 11:12am PT
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chickens from outer space are on the way.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 24, 2010 - 11:32am PT
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I am impressed that you managed to find my climbing posts, hurray.
I try to take this slowly. I linked to that article for a single reason. The article shows that "chemtrails" existed 1970 and the article says that they where common at that time.
Thus the conclusion is that your memory about no "chemtrails" at that time is clearly wrong.
Do you get that point?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 25, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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i must concede, raymond, that the article from the meteorological journal shows a track that looks like a chemtrail, and an occluded sky the likes of what we get all too frequently in california. i was moving from chicago to minnesota in 1970 and, as i say, did not notice any such things, either over the plains of illinois and the big city of chicago or similar environments in minnesota. could have been the prairie winds, but they didn't seem very apparent when i moved to california in 1980 either.
now sit back and try to be a little scientific yourself. you've got basically one photo there and some professional scientific concern. nowadays you've got a whole paranoia movement, plus a number of nonparanoids such as have posted here, who seem to agree there's a lot more of it than there used to be and they're looking for explanations, crackpot or otherwise. you don't have any study which has dealt with the extensiveness of this over time, and i don't think you're going to find one, which is one reason i've been asking for those with outdoor experience over time to speak up a little. my observation is that the issue seems to have eluded the environmental movement entirely, which has been much more concerned about urban automobile pollution than emissions on a global scale, except from the point of view of the global warming controversy. and for that puppy, let me refer you to the end of the recent yosemite glacier thread for a look at the "reliable" science which percolates down to the public.
i did look up that chemical i referred to. it's called TATP. here's the article published by the register of london:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/
this thing is nicknamed "the mother of satan" for a reason. dangerous to make, unpredictable. terrorists really don't like to deal with it. and you need a well-equipped laboratory and considerable skill to produce and use it effectively.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 25, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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now sit back and try to be a little scientific yourself. you've got basically one photo there and some professional scientific concern. nowadays you've got a whole paranoia movement, plus a number of nonparanoids such as have posted here, who seem to agree there's a lot more of it than there used to be and they're looking for explanations, crackpot or otherwise. you don't have any study which has dealt with the extensiveness of this over time, and i don't think you're going to find one, which is one reason i've been asking for those with outdoor experience over time to speak up a little.
An article claiming that "chemtrails" where common 1970. I consider that as much stronger evidence compared to what you remember.
First. Isn't very obvious that contrails are much more common today due to more flights being flown?
The second thing is that you then get into the most important thing about all this in my opinion. There are obviously a lot of interesting questions about contrails and it is also possibly that something fishy is going but the problem with everything I have seen so far are using arguments that is so easily disproved my basic meteorology.
What you call "chemtrails" and their behavior:
is not a new phenomena.
is easily explained by basic science.
You and the other believers in "chemtrails" need to start to find something that is actually hard to explain for people to take you seriously.
Are you sure that there it not exist a lot of research about contrails?
http://scholar.google.no/scholar?q=contrails&hl=no&btnG=S%C3%B8k
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 25, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
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so, where were you in 1970?
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 25, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
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And that is relevant because?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 25, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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because--to be scientific--you have one photo of a chemtrail taken over colorado around 1970. not exactly a scientific sampling or comprehensive body of data addressing this issue.
since you're so reticent to disclose any personal experience--i'm not asking for a credit card number here--i assume you're a relatively young fella who has simply grown up under chemtrail skies and thinks they're normal.
assuming they're chemtrails, of course. for me, it's an open question. you don't seem to understand what an open question is, but you're sure hellbent on closing this one.
here, by the way, is the photo i referred to:
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/environment/humans/chemtrails/news.php?q=1202441784
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 26, 2010 - 03:08am PT
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because--to be scientific--you have one photo of a chemtrail taken over colorado around 1970. not exactly a scientific sampling or comprehensive body of data addressing this issue.
Do you always seem to consider lack of evidence that you personally know about as very strong evidence for your theories? How much work have you actually done to collect real evidence on this issue? How many days have you spent on libraries reading old books and papers?
Also the scientific evidence in that article is not just one photo. The evidence is the whole peer reviewed article that claim that "chemtrails" where common at that time. The peer review system should give credence to that claim.
since you're so reticent to disclose any personal experience--i'm not asking for a credit card number here--i assume you're a relatively young fella who has simply grown up under chemtrail skies and thinks they're normal.
And you also assumed that I was a new member of this forum that didn't even climb. I thought that was insulting and don't want to answer your personal questions.
I have also to admit that I don't know how the sky looked when I was young. I don't know how common lenticularis clouds was to give one example. I doubt many people actually care about the sky enough to be able to know many years later the numbers of "chemtrails".
assuming they're chemtrails, of course. for me, it's an open question. you don't seem to understand what an open question is, but you're sure hellbent on closing this one.
So exactly where have I claimed that it is impossibly that someone is spraying chemicals? All I have said are that all your evidence and all arguments I have seen that is supposed to prove that someone is spraying is easily disproved by standard science.
It really isn't strange that some contrails linger around for a long time. It really isn't strange that some contrails have "holes" in them.
Nothing suggest that those two conditions is something new.
So I guess the US goverment have a at least a couple of thousands of those planes flying constantly around all over the world without passengers making chemtrails in the sky?
You also said before that it was very hard for people to discredit that pic. So why is the explanation given in the comment wrong?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 26, 2010 - 11:35am PT
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raymond, i'm having a little trouble following your reasoning in this last post, but i also have the feeling we're starting to get somewhere. you seem a bit contradictory. care to take another crack at it?
in addition to suspicions about what the government may be doing--well deserved suspicions for an increasingly secretive government--i'm also a bit proprietary. it's my motherf*#kin' sky as much as anyone else's. if you're gonna make a f*#king mess out of it, you better come up with some damned good reasons.
i think your sentiments are rather outrageous: " I doubt many people actually care about the sky ...", but i have to admit you're right about a whole generation, my own son included, which seems to have grown up with its entire emotional focus going into a computer screen, most of it developed by the eternal vistas of video games. if you don't care about the sky, i don't think you belong on supertopo.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 26, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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Hard to discredit Tony? You mean this pic proves chemtrailing?
It's a jet equipped for weight and balance testing to certify the design.
Why would a chemtrail plane need all those banks of electronics up front Tony?
Your mind is so 'open' you let all kinds of garbage and paranoia fall in.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 26, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
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not my area of expertise, mono. care to explain? do we pump mercury from barrel to barrel to "balance"? i could think of something easier, but do tell.
please read my posts, by the way. i said this pic has been widely circulated. i said i myself am suspicious of it.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 26, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
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Monolith,
You've been had too - don't you see the Miller/Coors labels on those kegs?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 26, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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But it is your area of expertise to cast suspicion it might be a chemtrail plane, Tony?
Sure Tony, they use mercury instead of water. WTF?
Hehe, beer kegs.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 26, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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raymond, i'm having a little trouble following your reasoning in this last post, but i also have the feeling we're starting to get somewhere. you seem a bit contradictory. care to take another crack at it?
I am not sure what you are getting at but what I think I tried to say was.
People have a theory about chemtrails. They use arguments x,y,z. Argument x,y,z seems to be clearly incorrect to me. So my conclusion is that the chemtrail theory is incorrect.
What this doesn't show though is that someone is not spraying something in the air. I can't disprove that but nothing seems to suggest that it is true to me.
i think your sentiments are rather outrageous: " I doubt many people actually care about the sky ...", but i have to admit you're right about a whole generation, my own son included, which seems to have grown up with its entire emotional focus going into a computer screen, most of it developed by the eternal vistas of video games. if you don't care about the sky, i don't think you belong on supertopo.
I am not sure if you got my point and I wasn't clear. I don't know that a lot of people look enough to what is happening with clouds and have enough understanding of the mechanism to know what to look at.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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I can't disprove that but nothing seems to suggest that it is true to me.
Crop dusters spray sh'it all over the country in their orchards and on their crops.
There goes your statement.
Heh heh .... :-)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 26, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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cropdusting is one thing--at least we know it's going on, nobody is trying to tell us it isn't, and it's pretty obvious when it happens. there is also at least a bit of pressure against it--because it's obvious.
i'm not going to post photo after photo of chemtrails on here--we've already had some. take a look at some of the web pages. ignore the theorizing--none of it is terribly consistent, but look at the photos. what reason in the world for laying these things down like plaid at certain times? they certainly aren't regular flight paths of commercial, private or military flights. somebody just doing it for the fun of it? it goes on bigtime--sometimes--and there has to be some purpose behind it and it's being entirely hidden from public awareness, comment and debate. that's what pisses me off to no end. no, we don't have the information we need to decide about it, and i doubt we'd be allowed to make tests of it which would be credible. you can bet that air traffic control would wake up for that.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 26, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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i'm not going to post photo after photo of chemtrails on here--we've already had some. take a look at some of the web pages. ignore the theorizing--none of it is terribly consistent, but look at the photos.
So the only argument you care about is pics of something that you don't understand? What background knowledge do you use to decide that it is not terribly consistent?
what reason in the world for laying these things down like plaid at certain times? they certainly aren't regular flight paths of commercial, private or military flights. some
Ok, I don't live in California but most long lasting contrails I have is straight lines over the sky and I see no reason to doubt that it is not commercial flights that make them.
I have also seen pretty fun looking contrails that was going all over the place both vertically and horizontally. The reason was of course fighter plane training.
body just doing it for the fun of it? it goes on bigtime--sometimes--and there has to be some purpose behind it and it's being entirely hidden from public awareness, comment and debate.
So you claim that it exist thousands of non commercial planes spraying all over the world?
So you have got into full conspiracy mood once again...
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
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Interesting pic, eh Klimmer?
Do you think this plane (MD-11, 3 engines, same model as UPS902) is spinning to make those vortices in the contrail?
Yeah, I know Tony, the crew has just opened the valves to the mercury kegs....
And Klimmer's 'spiraling' missile below:
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
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Vortices do come from wingtips, caused by the low pressure above the wings. Spirals may be a better word.
Whatever term you use, they look very similar to the spirals that Klimmer say prove that the 'missile' was 'spiraling'.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 29, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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We should consider it might have been one of these special
North Korean missiles.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 30, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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Tom, you swing both ways in these topics, but are a pilot who knows planes, pilots, weather, and aviation maintenance / logistics - chemtrails as anything but a rare, directed edge case or do you buy into the new world order is spraying us en masse?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 30, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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tom likes to keep his tits out of the wringer, so to speak.
meanwhile, back at the wringer:
a report that the german military admitted use of spraying for "war exercises", assuring that the chemicals are "harmless":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaPqCMIuEk4&feature=related
new zealand:
http://www.mysteriousnewzealand.co.nz/photogallery/index.php?cat=9
some unsubstatiated but rather particular reports from ohio about the high-tech involved:
http://www.skybluepony.com/page2/page2.html
rosalind peterson has been an activist about this in california. she cites some reference from NASA about spraying, some concerns about effects on climate, and use of trimethyl aluminum and barium:
http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/rosalind.html
that was for 2006 legislation, but the beat goes on. geoengineering isn't her word, it seems to be congress's as well:
http://www.agriculturedefensecoalition.org/?q=geoengineering
the canadian web page is interesting. these people started to notice this in their area around 2002. something different, increased activity. that's what i'm talking about:
http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/chemtrails.html
and, chemtrails are patriotic! (just kidding, i'm sure it was photoshopped. well, sorta sure.):
http://investigation.discovery.com/investigation/crime-countdowns/conspiracy-theories/conspiracy-theories-08.html
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 30, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
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When Cloud Seeding Goes Wrong: Cement Chunk Falls from the Sky
The Russian Air Force, during a mission to clear the skies of potentially rain-filled clouds, dropped a mixture of silver iodide, liquid nitrogen and cement powder in an attempt to seed the clouds. This form of climate modification is common practice in Russia, when attempting to engineer dry days on public holidays and special events in Moscow. However, during the cloud seeding operation last week, cement dropped from one of the aircraft failed to fragment when falling through the air, falling as a solid mass, crashing through the roof of a Moscow suburban home…
Cloud seeding is a highly controversial method used to modify local climates. Russia and China are two large nations that believe various methods of cloud seeding are effective in deflecting storms and preventing rain clouds from precipitating on events requiring dry weather. Silver iodide, dry ice and various salts are used as artificial particles acting as water droplet nuclei. Dropping these particles can trigger precipitation, but any form of climate modification can be unpredictable, and in some cases, dangerous.
One such unpredictable outcome from last week’s “routine” cloud seeding effort by the Russian Air Force above the skies of Moscow resulted in something bigger than rain hitting the ground. A pack of cement (with rain-making properties I’m guessing) was dropped from one of the 12 seeding planes with a cocktail of silver iodide and liquid nitrogen. The point? To clear the skies above Moscow in preparation for a dry national holiday on June 12th known as Russia Day. The result? The cement mix failed to break apart, creating the desired cloud of dust after it was released. Instead it maintained its shape (and presumably its cement-like hardness) and dropped to the ground like a stone rock.
•A pack of cement used in creating good weather in the capital region failed to pulverize completely at high altitude and fell on the roof of a home, made a hole about 80-100cm[2.5-3ft] Naro-Fominsk Police when talking with agency RIA-NOVOSTI
Fortunately no one was hurt, but the Russian homeowner is less than impressed. He has shunned the Air Force’s offer of $2,100 to fix the roof and is suing for “moral suffering” damages instead. The Air Force claims this was a freak accident and unheard of in the 20 years of cloud seeding operations.
Sources: Reuters, Environmental Graffiti
July 19 2008
Knowing the RU and their cement probably used an old sack.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 30, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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This stereopair alone easily invalidates the commercial jet-airliner hypothesis.
No commercial jet-airliner climbs out of the ocean at a steep radical angle spiraling upward and then to the W - WNW. The exhaust/vapor plume is strongly back-lit by the setting Sun (at 250 degrees from L.A.), as easily seen in this stereopair. The sides of the exhaust are hi-lighted and the center mass of the exhaust (closer to the viewer) is darker. The spiraling exhaust/vapor plume is spiraling in a clock-wise fashion.
Unless of course, commercial jet-airliners now launch out of the ocean like the NASA Space Shuttle. Dang, those passengers must have had an incredible ride, with a flaming engine that is glowing and seen over 170+ miles away with a HD news video camera zooming in. Better go figure out where that jet crash-landed in the ocean with all those passengers.
Over the TG holiday, I showed my PPT with stereograms using my stereoscope to a large group of relatives, and they concurred, it was not a commercial jet-airliner.
All of the evidence points to the fact that it was some kind of missile.
Only incapable and incompetent observers think otherwise.
Ouch. That is gonna hurt.
And no I did not get a copy of the original HD video footage from KCAL. However, some people there at KCAL already know what I was able to do with stereopairs made from the original footage, and that it does indeed invalidate the commercial jet-airliner hypothesis. It could easily be done with the original HD video. The quality of the stereograms would be superb.
I'm sure Uncle Sam wants this to be done no doubt. (Sarcasm)
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Klimmer:
Latitude 33° 14’ 13.7 N, Longitude 119° 28’ 22 W.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Except, of course, that you can't get that lighting from a 'missile' track north of the solar azimuth and headed NW.
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raymond phule
climber
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Fascinating Tony. You have find web pages that show pics of contrails. That is obviously indisputable proof that an alien ark exist on the backside of the moon (or was that another thread?).
The peer reviewed article from 1970 that only showed one single pic of a chemtrail is of course nothing compared to your links that show lots of pics of contrails. The only that matters is the numbers of pics of course.
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raymond phule
climber
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Just curious.
All of the evidence points to the fact that it was some kind of missile.
Only incapable and incompetent observers think otherwise.
(My emphasis)
Why don't you consider Rick Warren's pics as evidence?
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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And the LAX webcam pic, which shows the 'missile' going toward the coast.
Simple trig, Klimmer.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Ron, you seem to agree that the 'missile' was going towards the coast.
Simple visual evidence from two different angles, right?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Hahahaha, "mystery missile", thats hilarious. Next thing you know you will say there is an Ark on the moon! Nah, you can't be that stupid...
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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So there goes simple prima facia evidence.
A million years of knowing our left hand from our right hand counts for nothing.
You are just too funny Ron.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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I say there is at least one. Don't you remember the astronaut on the moon drives?
Now draw two intersecting lines on a piece of paper and ponder left from right.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Good, then you are ready for your next lesson.
LAX webcam view:
Long Beach:
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ive said numerous times that the correction displayed in the original footage matches the sat imagery perfectly.
It does, because the contrail in the sat pic is south of the solar azimuth, whereas Klimmer's nw track is north of the azimuth and hence can't produce the imagery in the original video or subsequent pics from other vantages. It's amazing how much analysis Klimmer can do, but he can't manage to plot the solar azimuth at sunset out of Long Beach and then project that onto the sat pic. If he did he'd see that it just ain't possible to produce that lighting on his track.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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You can clearly see the Moon Ark at the very top of Monolith's 2nd photo, above the horizontal cloud.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Bump for 1000. YEA!!!!
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Different angles, the sun is setting, not exactly the same time, different resolution, Ron.
The characteristics of the contrail and clouds are the same in both pics.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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That's one of the points Ron, it's not really 170 miles out to sea. It's much closer. The diagram was for 170 miles.
And by this time, a 'missile' going downrange should be more than a thousand miles out to sea.
That's why Klim is stuck in his little cloud.
The concept of the diagram was to show that 'left' means going to the coast, 'right' means going away.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Definitely not Klimmer's blue arrow track.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Good Ron, then you have to throw this evidence out.
You'll have a tough time doing that after viewing all the Warren pics and comparing to the helicopter video.
Klimmer says he can ignore this simple evidence due to the power of his crappy 3D with very little distance between pics.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Does that mean that the ark has an arc?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Under that blue arrow lies 'tracks' to the north of the line of the sun's azimuth and so absolutely cannot produce the visuals from the original video or LAX pic. Anything to the north of the arrow headed on a NW track would have the lighting that's the opposite of that in the video and pics.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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why, if the two views are from similar locales, such different shots?
an answer to that may be that the object you are viewing is close enough so that the relatively small change in the locales is enough to produce a large angular difference in the scenes... if that object were far away then the change in locale wouldn't matter so much... think about the looking at the Moon, it pretty much stays in the same position even with large changes in locale... it's far away...
the helicopter footage was taken on a bearing almost parallel to the incoming aircraft, it would be very difficult to see angular differences in the track, think about it, your eyes are at the same height, and displaced off the centerline of your face... that is best for the kind of binocular vision that we need to survive... the pictures the helicopter took were as if you had two eyes, one above the other on the centerline of your face, not so good binocular vision...
I know this is pissing in the wind... klimmer doesn't understand the very rudimentary principles in the quantitative aspects of what he is talking about...
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 16, 2010 - 02:10am PT
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http://www.nasawatch.com/
Soyuz TMA-20 with Expedition 26 on its way to ISS
By Marc Boucher on December 15, 2010 2:15 PM
A Russian Soyuz rocket lifted off at 2:09 p.m. EST with the Expedition 26 crew on-board headed to the International Space Station. The crew includes Russian cosmonaut Dmitry Kondratyev, American astronaut Catherine Coleman and from the European Space Agency Italian Paolo Nespoli.
Edit: watch the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mqVC-CNB3g&feature=player_embedded
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 16, 2010 - 02:58am PT
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 26, 2010 - 12:45am PT
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/25/AR2010122500642.html
By ASHOK SHARMA
The Associated Press
Saturday, December 25, 2010; 11:34 AM
NEW DELHI -- A rocket carrying an Indian communication satellite exploded just after liftoff Saturday in the second launch failure for India's space agency this year.
Television images showed the rocket exploding in smoke and fire just after it launched from the Sriharikota space center in Andhra Pradesh state. It was carrying a GSAT-5P communication satellite into orbit.
The vehicle developed an error 47 seconds after liftoff and lost command, leading to a higher angle in the flight, said K. Radhakrishnan, chairman of the Indian Space Research Organization.
"That caused a higher stress, breaking up the vehicle," Radhakrishnan told reporters.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 24, 2011 - 05:36am PT
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Another secret launch from Vandenberg...
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