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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 18, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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Spent the weekend at Red Rocks with friends at one of the group sites, and two of them came back with this story on Saturday:
They showed up to do Frogland (a multi-pitch moderate) not particularly early, and were not suprised to see other parties already on the route. They relaxed, racked up and waited for their turn. There were two parties on the route, and the first party was really slow (I am sure we have all experienced this situation). The second party then decided to pass the first party by running a couple of pitches together, bypassing the slow party at the mid-point anchor. I do not know all of the details, but what happened next was quite unbelievable:
As the leader of the passing party got to the higher anchors and prepared to belay up his girlfriend, the leader of the slower party reached out, grabbed the rope at the mid-point, tied an overhand knot on a bight, and clipped it into their anchors, effectively stranding both the leader and the follower!
The leader of the passing party remained calm, and talked to the other leader, finally convincing him to unclip the rope after 15 minutes.
What could the guy be thinking that pulled such a dipsh1t move? I was just appalled at this behavior - if it had been me, I would have fixed the line and rapped down to the anchor and been in the guy's face. Did he consider that at some point he was going to encounter this guy on-route, either going up or down, and that his behavior could seriously jeopardize his own future safety, not to mention the obvious immediate immobilization of a party on-route? Or the parties waiting behind them?
I have never heard of such a thing in 22 years of climbing - just stunned.
If you have crazy stories like this of dumbass maneuvers by d1ck-heads, please share them here.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 18, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
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The second party then decided to pass the first party by running a couple of pitches together, bypassing the slow party at the mid-point anchor. Was it safe to do so at that point, both generally and from the perspective of the first party? Did they ask or at least inform the first party of what they were doing? Perhaps there's more than one side to the story.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 18, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
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That idiot's lucky the passing people were rational. Remote desert areas seem to be where witnesses are few and accidents are sometimes on purpose...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 18, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
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I was only suggesting that perhaps the first (passed) party felt that they had been endangered, and believed they were acting in self-defence. That wouldn't justify what happened, but might explain it. There are some quite aggressive climbers, and some that are quite territorial - not a good mix.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Oct 18, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
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I can see both sides of a "party passing" story. Last year, I was climbing the East Buttress of El Capitan. We were the third of four parties on the route. Both the second and fourth parties had long ropes and wanted to link pitches. That's OK, but here is the problem in this particular situation.
When you link pitches, it takes close to twice as long to do two pitches as it does one. Also, the second can't start climbing until the leader has finished leading the two linked pitches. What this means is that the party who has graciously (or non-graciously) allowed you to climb ahead of them has to wait almost twice as long to start climbing than if you were just doing the climb without linking pitches. Is that fair to the party who just let you pass?
My own personal feeling is that if a party is allowed to pass and they are linking pitches, they should climb without linking pitches until they are far enough ahead that when they do link pitches they aren't causing the party they passed to have to wait.
Bruce
ps - luckily we had headlamps as we had to wait two hours at the belay below the 5.9 handcrack for the party passing us to link the next two 5.9 pitches.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Oct 18, 2010 - 06:55pm PT
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good question if it rises to the level of assault or battery. wonder how you would make that argument? Police wouldn't know how to write it up, would they? interesting.
Is it negligence if the doctrine of assumption of the risk applies to rock climbing generally? The counter is that 'no, it doesn't apply to scenarios in which tie'ing off someone mid pitch is not normally part of the climbing environment.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Oct 18, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
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Climbing through like that is a bit rude--but clipping in the rope? Flat out crazy--and stupid. I've tried a couple of times to get on Frogland--gave up both times due to super noobs going super slow, parties of 16, etc. Ugh.
Story: I heard this from an experienced climber doing a route, IIRC, on the Drus in the French Alps. Some hot-shot party in lycra--and little else--came blasting through, using gear placed by other parties--just clipping into the same pieces without a by-your-leave--and, at one point, grabbing the ankle of a guy leading a pitch! The offending party's clothing was so light, that had ANYTHING moved in, hypothermia would have been assured. Total asses. It's times like these that call out for the old Don Whillains five-finger mouth implant! :)
Be safe--and courteous out there.
BAd
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
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at one point, grabbing the ankle of a guy leading a pitch
Hahaha LOL !!!!
If you're gonna pass you have to be like the wind.
Gone in no time.
By the time the other party realizes what's going on and trying to react you're long gone.
Then they're either going WTF just happened or looking up and calling you a "Dick" both mentally and verbally.
Too late ....
This is has been a public service passing primer class: pass101
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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There is a parallel with driving- if you are going slow and impeding traffic you should move over and let the faster traffic by. Unfortunately, really slow climbers are often in some personal fog that precludes polite behavior.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
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people are stupid, have no courtesy and no patience.. if you are first on the route you are first plain and simple. some tries to pass me, they will have issues..
plain and simple,,
if you are second in line, go find another route..
plain and simple..
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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Brilliant. BRILLIANT move I say.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
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Tieing the guy off was uncalled for (shouldn't have let 'em pass), though I think passing people on Frogland is way lame and rude.
If your'e fast...just wait until late in the day, and then be the last party up. Or do it on a weekday. In my book that's a beginners route, and experienced climbers should respect that the newbs will be slow, and you ain't a hotshot just because you can climb Frogland fast :)
We Hiked all the way in to do L29 once, but a really slow party was already on the second pitch, so we did Rainbow Buttress instead. Glad we did because it's a good route too.
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
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The first time I went to Red Rock we were behind an ungodly slow party. The belays were all bolted, and my partner (or I) would lead a pitch and he or I would follow the pitch in the time it took their leader to get 10-15 feet out from the belay we all were now sharing. You know what? Tough sh#t for us. They were there first; those are the breaks.
Slow (whatever that is) climbers may be in some sort of fog that seems to prevent them from acting politely, but I am sure that at times fast (whatever that is) climbers are in some sort of fog that prevents them from acting politely, as well.
Reminds me of gyms and sport climbing areas when someone walks over and says: "Excuse me, are you almost done with that route?" When what he/she is clearly saying is: "Excuse me, YOU PEOPLE WHO AREN'T AS GOOD AS I AM: are you almost done with that route?"
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hooblie
climber
from where the anecdotes roam
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
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i actually kind of like this scenario. an attempt by the passing team to pre-empt
the rightfully held upper hand in a negotiation was neutralized until bargaining
could be initiated at the prior teams convenience, with their position unaltered
by unilateral roughshod behavior.
establishment of a compromise occurs with both parties in attendence.
brilliant and proper, easy to see how they came to terms.
a fair warning to would be throttle jockeys
~~~
i imagine we owe some of these innovations
to those hoods in the woods programs.
good fun E, may we have another?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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Standard ethics dictate you don't pass without permission, sounds like the second party decided to pull a dick move and pass anyway. The first party responded in kind with their own dick move. No winners here.
Especially in placed like Red Rocks where hold break, and there is still loose rock just off route, it is completely reasonable for the high party to not want to be passed. At least they waited till the leader was at a belay, and didn't do it while the leader was mid-crux like he probably deserved.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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Although donini and the kid seem contradictory, I think they're both right. We pass by the leave of those ahead of us. They may well have gotten there first to make sure that no one is kicking rocks down on them.
That said, I've never refused a request to pass me in 43 years of climbing. Then again, though, when I was a noob, it was rare to be on the same climb as another party -- at least in the Valley -- and it took little effort to insure you had not only the route, but the whole cliff to yourself. You can't do that much anymore.
I still think the best analogy is to golf etiquette. You play through only with permission, but if you have that permission, you play as fast as you can, and get out of the way ASAP. Converseley, if there is an open hole in front, you let a faster party play through. Better for both.
John
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
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Not me ....
If I'm on a route and Donini comes roaring up behind me I will yield and let him pass.
I know my place in line .....
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:00pm PT
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I was climbing Outer Space once. On the route next to us, a girl was leading, and having trouble. Their route came clsoe to ours, and they bailed off theirs onto ours. They switched so the guy was leading, and the guy passed my belayer as I was leading without permission, so that at one point I was leading with him 20 feet bleow me also leading. He set up his belay below us. I brought my partner up and led off again...and this guy did the same thing, passing my belayer and leading underneath me.
Then, their rope got stuck. Yelling ensued between the guy and his partner. Meanwhile, I brought up my second and we finished the route with no more interference.
Back in town the guy found us at the Subway, and wanted to fight me. I told him I'd be glad to oblige, and then the guy totally chickened out, muttering away. Lucky for me: he was way more tough-looking than skinny me and he had a girlfriend to impress .
I asked my partner what the issue was, and he said "I jammed their rope into the crack when they passed without asking the second time." We laughed, ate, went outside and saw the guy's climbing partner, who came over to us and said "my soon-to-be-ex-boyfriend is kind of an as#@&%e...sorry about that." We gave her a cold beer from the trunk and drove away.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
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This thread was worth it, to get to that post, hari. Cheers!
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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I guess I assumed that because of his remaining calm, and talking the other leader out of the tied-off bight, that he had permission to pass.
The truth is, I just don't know - I will try to get more info from the party that was third.
Thanks for your responses and stories - harihari: classic!
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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Passing is always problematic but being old school a bit, I always give the party ahead the benefit of the doubt. First come, first served being the basic principle.
Nonetheless, passing in many cases can be successfully arranged with considerate conversation. My buddy marvels at my appetite for the crowded classics around Boulder but I have passed and been politely passed on the Bastille Crack, Rewritten and several of the Flatiron classics.
Caught behind dix!, I consider rapping and/or heading to another route. YMMV
gilroy
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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I agree with Dana. (Hi, Dana.) Crawling over a party who got there first, unless they agree to let you by, is super rude and totally self-centered. You don't own the climb just because you happen to be faster than the folks ahead of you. And fer chrissake, there's a bazillion routes in Black Velvet Canyon, it isn't as if the faster folks had no options!
So let's not be too quick to heap all the blame on the party that got passed here. We don't know what words were spoken between the parties, but we can be certain, given the subsequent events, that the slower party did not want the faster party to climb past them. Either the faster party didn't ask whether it was ok to pass, or they asked, were turned down, and then went ahead with it anyway.
Either way, I have some sympathy for the guys who tied them off, although I think a respect for the safety of others, even others who are total as#@&%es, should enable you to control yourself enough not to put someone else at risk.
I also think that, in general, the polite thing to do when an express-train party comes roaring up behind you is to offer to let them pass, unless there is some reason to fear that they will be raining rocks down on your head.
I actually had an experience exactly like that on Frogland a few years ago. We were first, these Brits came flying up behind us, we offered to let them pass, they declined, saying "No, it's all about the day mate!" and we happily chatted at belay ledges and the top for the rest of the route.
Common decency goes a long way. Too bad some folks are in short supply.
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orsemaj
Gym climber
SD
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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I've been passed plenty of times and I have also let parties pass (sometimes I wish I have not...). I'd assume that the passing party did not ask to pass or was denied and passed anyway. If this is the case (given lots of considerations like being on the first or second pitch and all of the loose rock on the route), I think it is understandable that the passed party tied them off. I see no safety issue, the leader could have rapped down and cleaned the problem. Lots of details missing: did the leader trundle anything on his way up. If someone is on the route first, that is life; go climb something harder if you are such a GOD.
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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I don't see any problem with being passed, or passing slower parties.
It always seems to be the case that the slower party is the well less experienced, and the passing party is more experienced.
Hence the immature actions/comments by the slower parties that do get passed.
I've gladly let folks cruise by me when it was obvious they were a faster moving team.
It's pretty damn rude not to and to take the immature attitude of "well we got here first so the whole damn mountain is ours"
go fuk yourselves....
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
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I'm with the crowd who says they should not have passed in the first place without permission, although the response was definitely out of line. I'm not the greatest climber, but I am fast. Still, I will generally not even ask to pass another party out of respect for their right to be there. My main climbing partner (he's French - not there there's anything wrong with that) does not see eye-to-eye with me on this and he has has totally embarrassed me on this issue at least twice.
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
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I do feel a need to make one thing clear - my response and the initial post to this issue was from a personal ethical standpoint. I would never pass without permission, and I personalized the responding tie-off as if there were permission, and then the slower leader "changed his mind".
Apologies for not making that clear from the outset.
Regardless, I think the discussion is an important one.
Erik
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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Great tale HariHari! These situations have been going on for decades certainly. Clusterf**ks. Undoubtedly way more often now of course. Best to try to find some humor in it. But obviously peril increases like crazy with people stacking up like this on lead and belay. I won’t go on a route with anybody already on it nearby, period. Once climbing though, if someone is solo unroping, I sure will let him or her through, instantly. And when I have solo unroped people have always let me by generally. I am not sure I have ever been overtaken by another roped party but if they are that fast, I would try and let them through if it will work. Regardless, everybody has to talk beforehand or else it will get effing ugly as all get out. And may continue for years afterwards. Obviously then there is an increase of a chance of rockfall or a falling climber--- one has to consider this but the fact is that there more climbers there than planned and everybody has to cope with it.
I haven’t been in too many scenes like these above but there is a great one I like to relate regularly. Back in 1971 early March, Vandiver and I were unroping together up the Column Direct and then North Dome South Face. After about 15 pitches and I guess two pitches from the top of North Dome and the end of our linkup while later in the afternoon, Chris and I run into Al Steck, Dick Long and Jim? Wilson. They are planted for the duration, stuck at their belay below the crux 5.7 lieback way up high. Dick Long I guess or Wilson has gotten a boot---and I do mean “boot”, like a Monte Rosa or something huge, leathery and floppy---- stuck in the beginning of the pitch up about 20 feet or something from the belayer. As it was 1971, they all had hammers and while the leader was hanging eventually from an actual pin or nut, he was desperately whacking the boot with the hammer trying to get it out. Al Steck ( who I have known for 47 years) was giving us his Al Steck face and actually blocking us to be sure. But we asked him twice anyway for to climb through--- for christ’s sake we were hanging out there unroped 800 feet above the ground on the crappy shifty bitty little bushes dribbling down from their belay area. We weren’t in any real position to tolerate their situation and obviously we were simply flying, as Werner says above, “like the wind”. No No No was the answer. So by the time all these older guys finally trundled up to the summit and we were still hot on their asses, night had begun, forcing us to bivy in turtlenecks and cotton pants out in the damned forest with a constantly dying fire all night in near freezing temperature--- in early March you see. Apparently later on Al felt he should have let us climb through. He stated this to Inez, my old buddy who was close to him also. But Al never said anything to me. I love Al Steck but there is always that memory you see of how Chris and I were handled, unroped, up high after 16 pitches while his party really fooled around for 45 crucial minutes late in the day, causing us a tremendous amount of trouble later on. I suspect Al had never been overtaken by unroped parties before and probably had to think about it quite a bit afterwards as most would have too. It is weird being way the hell and gone up something all equipment and trudging along per the system of lead and belay and then have climbers appearing out of nowhere without any gear at all going about 1000 feet per hour.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
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I find that if you are fast, friendly and polite, they Always invite you to pass.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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Very often on crowded routes, someone two or three parties ahead is forcing a slower pace on all that follow. The slow party that you are trying to pass might be more polite than slow, and passing them isn't necessarily going to speed anything up for anyone. It's like changing lanes in a traffic jam...You don't get anywhere any faster, you just piss everyone around you off and make the commute needlessly stressful for everyone.
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bjj
climber
beyond the sun
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
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Then you are clearly very inexperienced if this is how you see it. There's a lot more to consider than just the question of which party is faster. A LOT more.
Right, off you go.
I don't see any problem with being passed, or passing slower parties.
It always seems to be the case that the slower party is the well less experienced, and the passing party is more experienced.
Hence the immature actions/comments by the slower parties that do get passed.
I've gladly let folks cruise by me when it was obvious they were a faster moving team.
It's pretty damn rude not to and to take the immature attitude of "well we got here first so the whole damn mountain is ours"
go fuk yourselves....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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Looking at it another way, perhaps the second team thought that because the route is named Frogland, playing leapfrog would be a good idea?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
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I think being polite will go a long way for both parties. The idiocy on the routes takes a back seat to the stupidity in the casinos!
Last time I was calling my son and bothering him in college everyday for the rundown of the basketball games. I'd say, looking at the sheet full of scores and the days scheduled games: "OK, Denver is playing at Houston and is favored by 3."
He'd reply something like: Well, Alan Iverson's playing good, Denver will beat the spread."
Me: "Iverson is playing for Denver now?" When did he go there? What happened to Philly?"
"Dad PLEEAASSSE! ! Whatta, do you live in a cave or sumptin'? Iverson got traded 3 years ago! Besides, Iverson's hitting that 20' step back jumper and he's getting strong crossovers and a half step on even the new guys since his calf muscle healed! He'll probably get 20 points on drives alone, Denver for sure."
Me: "Oh" (making frantic notes). "Uhh, Ok, what do you think on the over-under if I said 212?"
Lad: "Over."..... Denvers also got Carmello Anthony dad, and Houston's healthy and will be takin it down court on the fly, over for sure".
long pause.....
OK, "How about the Lakers and Sonics?"
And that's how that went. Lad was 32 wins, 18 losses. Some of the loses were when his team pick had their opponents drop a bucket in the last second to beat the spread.
I was up on Blackjack too, but I bet low stakes and mostly just visited with folks: hanging with my brother at a blackjack table can run towards being a 3 ring circus where everyone is involved. Brother says to the card dealer: "How do you get comped for breakfast here"?
Dealer " Oh that's Jacks call, he's the pit boss".
Bro: "Oh, thanks - could you call Jack over here?"
Jack gets to the table. Bro then starts what will prove to be a relentless running series of side negotiations with Jack for the next mornings breakfast as the cards continue to fly and the friendly Midwest couple at the table stare amazed at this display of unbridled Chutzpah unlike anything they've ever seen or perhaps ever will see.
"Jack", says bro, waving his hands to show he's including everyone at the table "this table wants breakfast comped tomorrow".
Jack: "I'm sorry, but complimentary breakfasts are for registered guests or players club members only blah blah blah".
"Jack, please": starts in bro with his opening salvo of what will prove to be more than Jack ever has to deal with: "Millie and Don there came all the way from Topeka to be here," pauses for effect and gestures to the beaming couple, who appear enchanted to be involved in the discussion "and we've been sitting here having a great time giving your boss's money and supporting your casino so you can get a big paycheck and don't you think it's only fair that you give us a little something in return?"
10 min of this dialog and Jack leaves. No breakfast....yet.
5-10 min later...the card game continuing... Bro notices Jack on the other side of the pit again and within a few seconds has the whole table chanting and clapping in unison like the frikkan world series game is on the line "JACK JACK JACK JACK JACK. With at least 1/2 the casino looking at us, stopped dead in mid-card deal to watch this unusual interruption, Jack comes over to the table which is now at fever pitched laughter at having won this little drama and gotten Jacks attention, and Jack is torn because they don't like this raucous behavior in casinos, but this group is still playing, laughing and joking: obviously having a great time and to Jack they look prepared to give up their kids college funds and the title to their homes once the bank account gets depleted if it continues, so Jack tries to be cool and with a wry smile quietly and almost shyly asks everyone to keep it down a bit by saying "shhhh, guys, keep it down a little will ya, you don't want me to lose my job now do you"?
Everyone gets quiet and then Bro starts in again: "Come on Jack, how much is breakfast really going to cost you guys?". You're buying the eggs wholesale, at a nickel and egg, why thats gonna cost you only" ..pause to do the math...."40 cents..thats if everyone here even has 2 eggs tomorrow morning.....blah blah etc etc", "why hell Jack, I'd think you'd want us wandering back in tomorrow for breakfast so we'd drop all our sports book money here...etc etc."
This little drama plays out for about an hour until finally Jack relents and gives everyone at the table a complimentary breakfast, thus saving everyone the $2.99 they would have had to pay otherwise. We give our leave to Don and Millie, and everyone walks out with the breakfast coupons and are feeling like Ed McMahon just told them they'd won the Publishers Clearinghouse Sweepstakes.
On the way over to breakfast, coupon in hand and still high from that winning feeling, Bro says: "What do you think about heading over to look at the new Bentleys in the Wynn?"
When we get there, they want $10 to just walk in the door. People are paying it too. Bro has never paid to look at a car in his life and won't start now so he will have none of that of course...it's game on again! Culminating with bro getting us in the dealership and trying to suck a complimentary lunch out of them as well.
And so it goes.
My brother, he's so damn much fun. This kind of thing happens on and off the whole time he's there. Never a dull moment.
fortunately, he's not a climber, but he'll pass you on the freeway all day long in his Bentley.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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people are stupid, have no courtesy and no patience.. if you are first on the route you are first plain and simple. some tries to pass me, they will have issues..
plain and simple,,
if you are second in line, go find another route..
plain and simple..
The Kid nailed it.
Both parties were wrong but the passing group was at fault in my book.
Prod.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
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Not me .... If I'm on a route and Donini comes roaring up behind me I will yield and let him pass. I know my place in line .....
Common decency goes a long way
You guys are just old.
Heh.
This is the Age of Entitlement.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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"...grabbing the ankle of a guy leading a pitch"
He probably told all his smelly friends he freed it.
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
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Yep. Game, set, match.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 18, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
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yeah, passing is fine in many situations but not neccessarily on a crowded moderate route in Red Rocks such as Frogland. Moderate multipitch climbs by their nature and grade generally project the speed and type of climbers that will be on them. Climbers going out with the intent to run up and over mutiple teams is arrogant, egotistic, and creating a hazard. Frogland is 5.8, not the domain of the hardman.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 18, 2010 - 10:36pm PT
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There's also an etiquette to dealing with getting passed.
One morning, "Scott" and I raced up to the base of Grand Wall. A local, let's call him "Perry," has snaked us. He and his friend work methodically up the first pitch. Scott and i fly up it, almost on their heels, doing the teenage boy thing.
"Perry" watches and measures our pace and style. At the 2nd belay, I can hear him tell his partner, "looks like rain, let's rap."
They rap, and Scott and I tear off, up our big climb.
Good lessons for us young 'uns. ( we were probably 5 yrs younger than Perry.)
He let us pass, but only after he saw how we were climbing. He did it in a way that didn't make his partner feel like she was climbing badly or that it was her fault they were rapping. He let us make the pass without a confrontation or even letting us know he was doing us a favor or offering gratuitous advice about pro or conditions or whatever.
One of those lessons you absorb without realizing that it had been a teaching moment.
Or course, pitch or two later, it really did rain, and Scott and I had to rap.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 18, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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So Eric, get on the phone. Let's get the real story from the party who did the passing.
Maybe they did indeed blow it and not ask permission, or worse, just blew on by of their own volition.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Oct 18, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
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Dudes, if yer slow yer slow. Get over it. Let them pass! By the way I have no reason to be posting on this thread as I have very little multi-pitch experience........But this is akin to driving 25 in the fast lane and not moving over. Get moving or get the f*#k out of the way I say.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 18, 2010 - 10:45pm PT
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I've passed and been passed. deal with it. preferably not by tying off someones lead line(although you have to admit thats pretty clever). also hopefully not by pissing on someone. I do agree that the rock is not yours. maybe we should have little speed signs on our backs.
"oh crap Bob that guy on frogland is a 1fps. we should head over to triassic sands where that guys a 4 fps"
seems insane dont it. again just deal.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Oct 18, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
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Hari, that's the weirdest story ever.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 18, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
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Big passing tip #2789
When you're barreling right up on the heels of the slow leader head of you climb past the belay he's at and belay above his belay.
Don't make a clusterf*#k.
Then beat your chest a few times and bellow some weird sounds.
When your second get's to your belay make sure you smoke the fuk up the rest of the route and disappear ......
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Oct 18, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
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So if the person trying to pass is obviously not that fast, a dick or dangerous what do you do then. I have been on ledges waiting for people above me to go and someone tries to pass and I can say it is truely irratating. Ice climbing even more so. Opps knocked some large chuncks of ice off.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Oct 19, 2010 - 01:14am PT
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maybe i missed a little bit of this, but if the leader being passed was clipping the bite into the anchor he was at, the the passing party led up twice the pitch(es) and passed, whilst the party being passed led and started to belay, so clearly there was a discrepancy in speed.
wrt to offense of tying off the 2nd, that sounds more of an inconvenience than an assault. i wonder when the passed party realized he'd have to pass back if he didn't free the rope...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 19, 2010 - 01:23am PT
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Nothing much new about passing climbers has been said here. But I like harihari's and Peter's stories.
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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Oct 19, 2010 - 01:32am PT
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17 years on the stone and ice..........
All over the US...Europe, Big mountains, sport climbs, heaps of trad lines.....
Yea........
I don't know what I'm talking about.......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 19, 2010 - 01:41am PT
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On the second pitch of the Salathe some dood came jugging up his fixed rope.
When he got close I saw it was His Bridwellness. I let him pass, trying
not to fawn excessively: "Excuse me kind sir, but do you have any Grey Poupon,
or a couple of Camels you could spare?"
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Oct 19, 2010 - 01:52am PT
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I agree with DMT and Bhilden here. If you are going to pass, it better be a favor to my party and yours. I have been in both shoes, both the slower party (bringing people up the 1st MP, we got there "1st" and early for that very reason) and the fast party chomping at the bit.
You know what worked in both cases? Talking to the other group. When we were the slow group. I talked to the leader as they hit the belay. Knew that ahead was a large ledge and would provide them with a great place to pass (Cat in the Hat). They waited till the next pitch, they passed while we chilled on the ledge and drank a beer.
On the other hand, I have passed people on Lotta Balls (and that's only a 3 pitch route!) and several Yosemite classics. In each case, when I got to the belay I started off with a friendly "Hello" and "What'd you think of that last pitch?" In all cases, we were gone seconds after they said yes and we put the hammer down till we had at least a 2 pitch gap on them.
From reading the OP it is not clear if this was a "hostile takeover" or not. My guess was it was considering the alleged action aka tying them off. I also agree that the tough guy mentality here and on other websites that you often see is rarely the reality in real life, but every now and then you will meet someone who will call you on your bullshit and actually be prepared to seal the deal.
Someone mentioned that "accidents" happen in the Desert. My $$ would be on the guy with enough balls to tie someone else off then the guy who passed.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Oct 19, 2010 - 02:08am PT
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Reminds me of gyms and sport climbing areas when someone walks over and says: "Excuse me, are you almost done with that route?" When what he/she is clearly saying is: "Excuse me, YOU PEOPLE WHO AREN'T AS GOOD AS I AM: are you almost done with that route?"
This is just an ignorant statement....
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Blakeb
Gym climber
Southern Oregon, behind her
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Oct 19, 2010 - 06:08am PT
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Im with you there josh, i also thought that was one of the dumbest things i have read here in a while, how else do you politely ask someone if they plan to run laps on something or if they are indeed wrapping up their use of a rope.
Jsj is a genius and he put alot of my thoughts while reading this thread into a way better more concise write up then i am capable of. Blaming your as#@&%e partner and talking alot allowing them to only mutter a few words of agreeing with you that he is indeed an as#@&%e and in a matter of minutes it is over. Jsj, have we climb together, haha
Simuling is the easiest way to pass, or like werner said, climb past their anchor and set yours higher, then keep stepping on it.
All this complaining about passing...ya sound like really old men
Having said that my buddy got spat on by some euro in the valley, cussed at thoroughly, and then they pulled his gear out as he lead quickly past, subjecting him to the possibility of a quite large fall while simul climbing. Seems outrageous to me to not let a clearly faster party climb through quickly.
If you are the as#@&%e passing when you are slow as sh#t anyway, quit f*#king it up for everyone else...
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:16am PT
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Interesting stuff PH...
I'm in agreement with Donini as long as you don't "slow down" in the fast lane. Sometimes that fog is fear and it might help seeing someone blaze-it has in a few cases for me..
Potter and O'Neill passed us on SFWC in a day, we were going along pretty quick,but not that fast. Potter was 40' run on some pretty sick terrain, asking, "mind if we play through?"...gone like the wind.
At the same time, I've been passed by some Austrians on Salathe Wall who dropped a biner and a grigri on the party above us, hitting the same guy twice (ya, he got tagged with a gri!) so I understand the trepidation of pokeys. The rock is a shared resource in a lot of places...
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:28am PT
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Im with you there josh, i also thought that was one of the dumbest things i have read here in a while, how else do you politely ask someone if they plan to run laps on something or if they are indeed wrapping up their use of a rope.
See Spot. See Spot run.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:41am PT
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My most memorable being-passed scenario was on the West Face of El Cappo. My one and only time up that stone, the West Face, aid and free, I had just pulled a long, overhanging thin crack--on aiders, don't ya know--when I look down to see a pretty woman at the belay with my mates. She's belaying someone I can't see who's working the overhang. In no time, a thin English dude, none other than Ron Fawcett cranks the lip and says something like: "Mind if I just nip by here?"
"No problem," I say, easily stepping over to some knobs. Zoom, he's up to the ledge. He then pulls up their gear, a couple of water bottles and a small bag, presumably with a bit of food and wind breakers in it.
Fawcett says: "I bet you wish your bag was this light! My bag's at the other end of the line." Then, yelling louder, "Sorry 'bout that, luv!"
I hung out for a few minutes until Jill soon-to-be Fawcett and bound for a status of ex-Fawcett climbed by. They were both off the ledge before my second had cleaned the roof. The whole affair was quite pleasant, and it was great to meet a super star in such a setting.
So much of the passing situation depends on the attitudes of the group and the nature of the route, room on ledges, etc. I recall one a-hole who couldn't wait for a slow party of noobs following Mentalphysics in Josh. C'mon, ass hat, it's the most popular 5.7 in the Wonderland. It's only a little over a pitch long, and there are only thousands of other climbs in the park. A young woman was creeping up the first pitch, and this dic was dogging her heals, his eyes literally at her foot level, and I don't think he was there to check out her booty. The ledge at the top of the pitch is more like a stance, if I recall. Such moron. My partner and I watched the zoo for a while and wandered off. If there are no routes within one's ability immediately available in the Wonderland, wander! Whether you climb or not, your time will be well spent.
BAd
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Oct 19, 2010 - 10:18am PT
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I've never been asked to pass on a route but I attribute that more to avoiding popular routes on weekends than to being particularly fast.
But none of you have mentioned the phenomenon of preemptive passing, which as a woman who often climbs with other women, used to happen to me a lot. This is when I'd be at the base of a route, already racking up, and another party (2 men), would come up and ask if they could just jump on the route ahead of us bcause they were going to be fast.
My most specific memory of this was at the base of Oz. My partner Rita was halfway up the first pitch when a party of three guys came up and proceed with audible grubling and obvious unhappiness. I can't remember at this point if they actually said anything about passing but I probably gave my standard response to these situations which was just to say, if we seem to be too slow, feel free to say something. I have to say I felt rather gratified when I was leading off left for the 10a finish, to see that none of their party had yet reached the second belay.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 19, 2010 - 10:31am PT
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It is interesting that a lot of climbers will make judgements about a parties speed based on gender, age etc. without actually having seen them climb. Lot's of fun to see them with egg on their faces. Oz is my favorite climb in the Meadows.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 19, 2010 - 11:18am PT
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Yep, years ago Karin & I did South Crack with a friend of ours on Tuolumne SAR - she'd just never got around to it despite years of climbing up there. So we're racking up at the base, and she starts to lead off just as two guys come around the corner (you can't quite see the base from the car). They start grumbling about a team of 3 with 2 girls climbing slow and ask about passing - not even noticing that Rachel is already 100' up the harder start with only a couple pieces in. By the time they put their packs down and look around, I had simulclimbed up a few feet of 4th and Rachel was off belay at the second pitch ledge.
We topped out and could see down half the route - they hadn't appeared.
Karin told us later that just before she left the ground, she had to mention that they had been whining at their Supertopo guide author and one of the Tuolumne SAR folks who would rescue them if they got in trouble...
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 19, 2010 - 11:23am PT
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wow...
enlightening story E.
Showing ones pride comes in many forms.
First (slower) party lead may not have liked the idea of being passed.
No excuse for such actions. Dude (faster lead) should have come down and laid some womp (kick a$$) on that (slower) mans face.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 19, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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Great post (previous page) Jsj LOL Great advice!
I understand being pissed off at someone passing you. You get up early and get there first.. you have the right of way but if you are pokey, you gotta be reasonable.
The vast majority of us in this situation would just get pissed off and have some words. I guess it's just shocking the guy actually tied the bite off. It's the sort of thing you think about doing when you are angry... but to actually actively sabotage a popular route seems pretty unreasonable. He wasn't just punishing up the offending passer... he was f*#king up the day for the 3rd/4th parties climbing below as well who did nothing to deserve the delay and drama.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 19, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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As a mariner I must insist that y'all BIGHT ME!!!!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Oct 19, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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I agree with those that have said "no permission, no pass".
First come, first serve, azzhole.
New passing norms are not necessarily a good thing.
If I show up late, I try to find a different route, or I WAIT for the above party to be well out of the scene.
You cannot assume that everyone is cool with passing just because you think you're a big-dick, and fast, and better, and cooler.....
If the total circumstances make you think that you can get by safely, then you need permission to pass. Barreling into a slower party uninvited is asking for trouble.
I agree with The Kid, if you try to pass my party without permission, it's gonna suck to be you.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Oct 19, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
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Getting all zippy on a crowded 5.8- lame. Tough stuff should have picked a different route.
In the real world passing works itself out among reasonable folk.
Seems unlikely that the tie-off was unprovoked?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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I remember years ago me and Fosberg climbed up on Half Dome regular route thru 2 parties.
I yelled at them to stop climbing.
I even grabbed one parties rope and jugged it,
We were hauling ass.
Until we finally caught up with the third party and the then the Copper came ....
:-)
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 19, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
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Simple solution is don't get in a que on popular 5.6 routes. You KNOW there will be some super slow peeps on those routes, there always are. If you choose to join one of those goatrope rodeos anyway, then what do you expect?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
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If you choose to join one of those goatrope rodeos ...
LOL
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 19, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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Plus nowadays they've all read on SuperTopo that you shouldn't let other climbers pass you because it's unsafe, inconvenient, untraditional, and you might have to smell their feet as they go by. And they've learned some naughty tricks for making sure it doesn't happen.
All demographics, perhaps. But stories of the aggressive behaviour of commercial climbers in other places are horrifying.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 19, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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If you're a slow party and someone comes roaring up on your heels, by all means, let them pass.
HOWEVER, don't get on one of the Red Rock classic multipitchs when there are multiple parties stacked up top to bottom and think you're going to pass and climb over everyone.
Passing someone in this type of situation is similar to the idiots on the freeway where cars are stacked to the horizon in front of you, and they roar around you into oncoming traffic to get one more place up in line.
Tieing off the rope is absolutely justifiable in that situation. or handing out a blackeye.
If you're in a hurry or got an ego to feed, go get on something a little harder or less crowded. Red Rocks is a somewhat different place to climb at then the Valley. If you're getting on Frogland 5.8, be prepared to take a number and chill, or alternately get up a little earlier since you're all aggro.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 19, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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As our resources become more over-utilized this issue will come to the fore.
I see both sides.
Gumbies should not be able to monopolize a route.
Faster climbers are not automatically entitled to climb through and dump on those below.
How do we reconcile the two perspectives?
Simple, extend the golf analogy.
For every route we need to develop a consensus of what is "par", that is, an acceptable speed of execution, a standard rate.
If a party is keeping to that rate then another party does not get to pass unless they are given permission.
There is, of course, a gap between "theory" and enforcement.
But I sometimes climb armed, and if some asshat thinks he has the "right" to endanger me he may get a terminal surprise.
You see, on October 9, 1974 somebody cut ahead of me in Eldo (where everybody knows there is no rockfall), and pulled off a rock that nearly killed me and put me in a wheelchair.
As they say, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
And if I DO get judged by 12 you can be sure that they are gonna see all the tricks I can do in a wheelchair before they judge me.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
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To funny, Dingus!
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10b4me
Ice climber
Happy Boulders
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Oct 19, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
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Back in 2002(?), Karla and I were climbing Tunnel Vision. We were first on the route. We were on the ledge just before the Tunnel hanging out, and having lunch. We noticed a girl, and guy below us on the crux pitch when all of a sudden they were passed by a party of three. When the party of three got to the belay, one of them decided to take a piss on the party they had just passed.
wtf
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Oct 19, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
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There are a number of entirely justifiable reason for a party not to want another party ahead of them, reasons that have to do with the health and welfare of the party that was, after all, there first, and may well have gotten their first precisely to avoid having others overhead.
One of the things I think climbers believe is that they have a lot of control over the risks they choose to take. It's almost an axiom of climbing. When a party passes yours and climbs directly above you, they may, in some cases, be imposing risks you never had any intention of choosing. In addition to rockfall and dropped objects, there is the potential to be hit by a falling climber as well as a host of bad things that can happen with commingled ropes. I think more or less every bad thing one can think of has actually happened, and Ron's experience makes it clear that the outcomes need not be trivial.
Faster parties may have chosen to embrace a number of risks that they then, in the process of passing, impose on the slower parties. I don't climb armed, but I can understand the feeling that another party is putting you at risk. In such cases, tying them off might seem a lot more like justifiable self-defense then abject azzholery.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Oct 19, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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Years ago, Jean Ruwitch suffered a serious head injury in this fashion. She and her partner, climbing the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral, were passed (over their objections) by another party that, several pitches higher, kicked off a large rock with no warning. It hit Jean on the head.
As I recall the story, the rock-kickers kept climbing, offering no help and taking no responsibility for the major rescue that brought Jean down unconscous but still alive. I believe she subsequently sued them, receiving an out-of-court settlement.
Perhaps Werner or others can add details.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Oct 19, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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Nice post rgold and chiloe.
Spartacus, I was called out on that rescue, but ended up sitting in the meadow until she landed...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 19, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
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The Ruwitch incident had a strong influence on my views on the subject and serves as an excellent example of why people have no right to assume that they have a right to pass.
A friend was on the Walker Spur and watched a rude party pass them even yarding on their rope and gear. One then pulled off a huge rock that nearly hit him.
He then watched in horror as the rock hit a party below knocking them from the wall and killing them.
A passing protocol is something that needs to be addressed by our community, but it likely won't happen until somebody gets shot.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Oct 19, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
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we had a rest day in moab last week. Thought we'd try to get lucky, pull the third shift on Ancient Art. Figured there was a chance we'd get shut down, but hiked up there anyway.
There was a party of 6 on the route. One leader. Five ropes. one 12 year old. two chicks who had never seen the outside of the gym.
WTF? Who takes 5 noobs up a 4 pitch route where you have to rap the route?
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Oct 19, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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There's no mention of falling rocks, gear or hazard caused by the passing party, so the people tying a knot in the rope are asses.
There's this American tendency to stake a claim to whatever public space someone is in and then think of it as "Mine, all mine!" This was maybe once cool when on the frontier, but it ain't like that anymore. Get out of the left lane unless you're passing at that moment. Work with traffic on the road and routes. It's all public space. In Europe and most other places it's just expected that slower parties are gonna get passed, and that slower people will stay out of the left lane, and that it's not even remotely worth getting some sort of road rage on when someone blows it. In fact, if you blow it on the road in Europe the person who avoided the wreck is cool, and you're an idiot, and everybody knows it, no road rage... But in the USA people drive slower than traffic in the left lane and get bent when passed on routes; these attitudes go together and come from the same place I think.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 19, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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There was a party of 6 on the route. One leader. Five ropes. one 12 year old. two chicks who had never seen the outside of the gym.
WTF? Who takes 5 noobs up a 4 pitch route where you have to rap the route?
Welcome to Utah!
I'd be surprised if they all had harnesses, much less rappel/belay devices.
Those folk seem fairly common in the Tetons, too. Big party, one designated leader, TR's for the followers, on every pitch of the Exum on the Grand for example. Nutty.
Friends a few years back ran into a very large party in Idaho who had three TR's set up on a three pitch route, with in place belayers on every pitch, and, folks running around at the base, all sharing just a couple of harnesses. They asked to play through and were denied. So, they did anyhow. Shared some very unkind words with those folks too, who told them they were going to report them to the Salt Lake climbers and they'd be banned at their local crag. More pointy bad language towards them. Too funny.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Oct 19, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
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When I think of climber etiquette and safety, I seldom turn to Europe for examples.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 19, 2010 - 04:59pm PT
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not really the same thing, but I took my sister to Joshua tree on sunday and we saw that Toe Jam was unoccupied, so I grabbed the pack and started walking towards it. Just as we got to The Cave a guy with a pack on jogged right by me... weird, right? Then he was followed by his three small children (helmets, harnesses and shoes) and his wife. He stood sheepishly at the base of the route, having squeeked by a few seconds ahead of us by literally RUNNING past.
I have had a lot of those ones, too. People RUNNING past you on the approach, especially in Tuolumne, only to gas out after 10 minutes because they maybe aren't what they think they are.
The best example of the above was the first time I did Tenaya peak, with my 56 year old mum. We had on approach shoes, a rack of stoppers, slings and a liter of water. At the parking lot was a kinda scraggly looking couple, with heavy, heavy packs. Had to have been 40 pounds each.
As we bushwhack up the approach they would constantly cut right in front of us, and several times I told mom to just hang out and let them get ahead... but once they were far enough ahead of us they would take a rest break and start sprinting once we caught up. Anyway, they were pretty gassed by the end of it, and we were good hikers, so we nonchalantly found a good place to rope up. As I throw the rope on the ledge they doggedly scramble 15 feet above us and start maniacally flaking out the rope. I toss one end to Mum and just start soloing, when it comes tight I tell her to start climbing. One belay changeover and just over an hour later we topped out. The other party hadn't even started.
So just goes to show you... even a 56 year old grandma can smoke you on your route.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Oct 19, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
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I've had someone run past me before, in friggen Sedona of all places. The guy even complained about us on the way by, saying with no sense of irony, that we should have chosen some other climb.
Anyway, they beat us to the route and the guy wigs out on the first pitch, puts in a bunch of gear, bails, and asks us to retrieve it for him! I climbed up to his anchor, pulled his pieces and threw the whole mess into the brush 100 ft. below.
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NML81
Trad climber
N Lake Tahoe
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Oct 19, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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We passed a party on Frogland by traversing to another route, Bourbon St. or something. The next pitch on that was fabulous.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 19, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
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When I think of climber etiquette and safety, I seldom turn to Europe for examples.
Last year, around this time, I climbed with a very well seasoned feller at Freyr, in Belgium (Jean B. who's well known there). So, we rope up for this 4 or 5 pitch classic, and, there's a party a pitch in front of us, which we rapidly over take. I was thinking we'd be in for a wait, but he climbed through them so seamlessly it was amazing to watch. Near the end, we bumped into another party. I caught then shared the belay with them. Very pleasant, and, since we were much quicker, I got the feeling they just expected us to play through. Which, we did. Strange to me, but, really facilitated easily by both parties.
Probably depends on the location and the saavy of the parties involved. Which, is probably the case anywhere.
I find the "stack the rope at the base" move pretty funny. We arrived a couple weeks ago at a very popular spot in Finale Ligure, in Italy. Wasn't super crowded, but, folks were arriving as it was still morning. We harnessed up, racked up, just as a fairly large German group arrived. First thing the feller did was take his rope out and drop it at the base of the route we were going to climb. My partner gives me this, "what do we do now" look. I walk over, flake our rope, and tell him to head up. Just as he takes off, the guy asks if we're planning on doing that route. "Uhh, yeah". Wasn't a deal as we were pretty fast and off the belay by the time their leader was up the first pitch, and, headin' down well before his second finished the first pitch. Fairly pleasant, but, I thought it might get interesting with the whole rope drop ploy. Which, I'd seen before but mostly in the states.
Red Rocks can get crowded on the classics. And, you run into all sorts of folks out there. Mostly fairly pleasant, but, sometimes, not so much. I hate the foot-race-to-the-base thing. Always think its funny when one partner arrives and expects the route is theirs when their partner is no where to be seen. "Mind if we get started?" Ha ha.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Oct 19, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
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If the party is below you then they weren't faster getting to that point by definition. I have no problem letting people pass if they seem compitent and way faster, but I will intentionally speed up if they are pushy and arogant. I don't always climb as fast as I can or do i want to. I have also passed people and find that if you are patient and polite they will usually let you through. But if I really want to do a particular route at places like Red Rocks or on something like the Diamond I get up at 3:30am and then you are usually the fastest. I agree with many statemnents above and would bet that within 20 years you need a permit to do things like the Nose or Red Rock Classics precisely because of issues like this.
Brian: There are 4-5 pitch routes in Belgium? Learn something new everyday.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 19, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
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Yeah, Rocher de Freÿr has over 600 routes/1000 pitches. Gobs of multi pitch.
Sure, though, pitches are fairly short. Tallest crags are around 120 meters or so. Neat, come right out of the river below.
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Lee Bow
Trad climber
wet island
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Oct 19, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
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I have to admit I love blasting up moderates at warp speed for kicks. On the occasions I catch up we relax and show patience. This seems to be the key to being invited to climb through...who knows, maybe we just irritate them...
There have been a couple of classics over the years.
Back in the days of EB's I was finishing up my hardest lead to date: a completely run out 10b slab on crumbling crystals and scrabbly moss. As I pull over the last roll I realize ther's a totally terrified climber at the belay (shared with an easy route). He looks at me with wide eyes and in a high pitched voice says "You can't come up here!"
"Man I'm on a 100ft runout and if I stop I'm probably going to die"
"I don't care...you have to wait!'
I reached the belay and clipped in against his protests.
When we got to the top it turned out they had no idea how to get down and we had to escort their sorry asses. Never once did the belay guy let up on what a jerk I was for clipping into the belay. Hell I didn't even clip HIS gear, just the fixed belay slings.
A couple years later I was doing Diedre with a beginning leader. These French guys wearing yellow lycra did the rude pass complete with using US for handholds (including my shakey friend on the lead). The second even farted on my head as he climber past! Sure wish I'd thought of tying of a bight! Tee Hee.
Mind-bogglinly they had no idea how to get down either. I speak French so while they followed us down I made it clear what I thought of them. They truly seemed to have no awareness that what they had done was rude.
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Frozenwaterfalls
Ice climber
California
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Oct 19, 2010 - 07:47pm PT
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Still my all time favorite was climbing Blown Away in Tuolumne. We got up early since the first two pitches are shared with West Crack and as a 5 star moderate, we assumed there would be a crowd. A rope team of a couple of friends headed on up. My climbing partner and I were flaking out our rope and getting ready ourselves to head on up (the second of the first team was about halfway up the first pitch at this point), a team of two guys comes on up and bluntly states "We are faster than you, we want to go ahead of you."
I look at them blankly not sure how to respond to such a stupid statement but my friend - much quicker of wit - comments "Well, you are not faster out of bed so wait your turn." All I can guess is that these two guys saw two gals and assumed that we were slower than them. They had not seen us climb, we weren't wasting time, just giving our friends a bit of space so there wouldn't be 3 or 4 of us at the first anchor. Mind you, our friends finished pitch 2, and I was leading out pitch 2 and the two guys had not even left the ground. And I fully admit I am not the fastest. But evidently, I was faster than those two guys and their giant egos. Passing is a priviledge, not a right. So don't be damn rude and/or jump to conclusions and if it is safe, I am happy to let people pass.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 19, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
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sometimes you pass and sometimes you get passed. it can all be good. i have let parties by in hte Black Cyn while i was at a hagning belay and i have passed parties on elcap. it is not an us versus them while on route unless you are an a$$ and they are a$$e$
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Oct 19, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
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Attitudes vary a lot by location it seems. In the Alps it seems common.
Got passed on the Tofane by a team of Italians who chased us mercilessly for the first 7 pitches or so, clipping my gear as they slowly caught up. Once they caught me I let them go.
Passed a couple parties on the Vinatzer on the Second Sella and caught up to a team of young Germans, who wouldn't even let me into the belay, physically blocked me from finishing on the ledge. A strong German team came upon us as I hung in space awaiting my turn, trying to pass us all. They gave the little f*ckers what for and we both wound up passing them on the way to the summit, ran down the descent, rapped together and pulled our ropes just before the storm caught those little bastards coming down.
Bypassed three teams of Italians standing at the base of the Schubert and shared the entire route with their buddies who were the strong team. Great time.
When there's more folks vying for long routes attitudes are different.
Lots of fun.
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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Oct 19, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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Twas the infamous Adrian Burgess who wrote in his book about tying a knot in some ones rope when they passed a team of Euro's in the Cham valley on a route........
Talk about old guys
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Blakeb
Gym climber
Southern Oregon, behind her
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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Reminds me of gyms and sport climbing areas when someone walks over and says: "Excuse me, are you almost done with that route?" When what he/she is clearly saying is: "Excuse me, YOU PEOPLE WHO AREN'T AS GOOD AS I AM: are you almost done with that route?"
Again, this is one of the dumbest things i have read on this site, saying excuse me is polite and inquiring about sharing a public resource seems completely valid. How else do you ask someone politely what their intentions are and planned time frame.
If you think everyone that asks you a polite question about sharing is really judging you and flaunting their ego of superiority, then maybe you really have a problem with insecurity and worrying about what others think about you or you just know that you suck and assume anyone that talks to you can tell as well, not sure which category you fall under.
On another note, so rokjok what do you plan to do to these passing perpetrators?? Start a fist fight on the side of cliff?? Cut their rope? Rappel back to the ground and key their car? Or just tie the middle of their rope to an anchor?
Hope you are prepared for them to sh#t and piss on you from above if they do make it through whatever kind of attack you are planning.
And this talk about climbing routes armed? Is getting passed on a route by some rude as#@&%e really worth shooting someone over?
I believe in our right to bear arms, but what you guys are saying is taking it too far. No one likes sitting around while some hot shots pass them and no one likes sitting behind a three person party with only one competent leader that seem to have brought the kitchen sink and all up the climb, but this is reality and passing can easily be negotiated politely and is going to happen on popular routes whether you like it or not.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
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You just don't get it, do you Blake. This is the internet, and posting sensible ideas about how to work out a pass/no pass situation by talking things over like responsible adults will get you nothing but contempt.
No, unless you're a total hardass about it, you don't deserve to be on the rock. Beat people up if they try to pass you. Or shoot them. Isn't that why we climb? So that we can post on the internet as if we were real tough customers?
Why, if the Internet Climbers Club ever found out you were actually a decent human being, you'd be laughed at.
Here's the right attitude if you want to be a real Internet Climber: "If I am on the climb, and its a 2 or 4 or 5 pitch climb, you can damn well wait until I am off it." Be like the guy who said this up above and...
And what? Be generally recognized as an arrogant as#@&%e? What's the difference between that "No way is anybody ever gonna pass me" attitude and the "I'll pass you whether you like it or not" attitude?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
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No Ghost neither you nor BlakeB get it.
Spend a little time in a wheelchair, or watch some reckless fool kill some innocent people, and bearing arms to enforce a safer situation is, legally, not out of line, and while not an appealing prospect, might just be the kind of incident to galvanize the community into addressing the problem and, in the end, save countless lives.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:45pm PT
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Common sense, an IQ equal to or greater than your age, good manners, and situational awareness are all that are needed. Any questions?
Be safe my friends.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
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Sorry Ron, but I think it's you that's misunderstanding here. Nowhere did I (or, I think, Blake) say it was cool to pass at any time. Or to deny passing at any time. Just that it was uncool to get all arrogant and say words to the effect that "No f*#kin sunuvabitch is ever gonna pass me!"
If you feel that the only way you can be safe on a climb is to carry a gun, then I really have no response.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Oct 19, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
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The most basic principle is civility on all sides; nearly all passing/no passing situations are sorted out amicably on this principle. As Jaybro posted, "I find that if you are fast, friendly and polite, they Always invite you to pass." Similarly, if you are just not that fast on a particular day, also be friendly and polite and anchor a bit to one side, or slightly below (or on a longer tie-in) to facilitate an easy pass. We did this once on E Buttress of El Cap, and sure enough, when the waterfall started blowing over the route, everyone was happy to join forces so we had two ropes for the rappels.
Whichever position you're in, if you first assume people are cool and safe and friendly, usually they turn out to be; only a few will turn out just to be committed to being jerks, in which case you just have to chill or bail - we do go climbing to have fun, don't we? not to just vent or be jerks ourselves??
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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Great posts everyone!
I just finished reading the whole thread since this morning, and really appreciate everyone's input.
Thanks again!
But I sometimes climb armed, and if some asshat thinks he has the "right" to endanger me he may get a terminal surprise.
The image of Ron bleeding from rockfall in one arm and taking careful aim at the non-permissioned aggro passer (that knocked the rock loose) with his good arm had me laughing!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 19, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
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You think I'd wait that long?
Ghost, there is more than one use for a gun; snake control, distress signal, hell in sandstone I've even started bolt holes with one!
And they're great for virgin summit celebration.
You should've seen the pasty faces of the canoeists a thousand feet below when we bagged Abbey Tower.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Oct 19, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
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Mr E don't get me Started....Sounds like everyone made an assumption in judgement and they were fortunate it ended as well as it did....As Sir PAul Mc would say Too many people running underground...Too many people looking for their lucky break....That was your first mistake....You broke it in two....Bass drum .
Ram album...You were there ,I was there, do you remember? Take care Bro and good climbing towards you...Stay away from multiple parties on routes...It usually doesn't end well.
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sergio64
Trad climber
Sin City
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Oct 20, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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Did Frogland 3 weeks ago and found a slow party ahead of us. Nice guys, from Boulder, boyfriend and girlfriend. I lead the first few pitches, and whenever I got close to her tail I slowed down. When she was at the belays she offered me to clip into her anchor, so I joined her and chatted away while my belayer waited down below. At the start of the fourth pitch and before she took off, I asked her to yell down to me when she was ready to take off for the fifth so I could start climbing and keep away from them. We could have easily passed them, but why?? We enjoyed our company, we laughed, we told stories and had a sandwich. What's the big rush that you have to pass people? I just don't get it.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 20, 2010 - 02:13am PT
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I never pass a good sandwich.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 20, 2010 - 02:27am PT
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An interesting aspect of this thread, and discussion, is that probably at one time or another, we've all been in the shoes of the "passees" and of the "passers", and in their different roles and reactions.
As several have observed, it's often situation-dependent, but observation, thought and communication help.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 20, 2010 - 11:24am PT
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Interesting how so many have pulled posts here.
This is an issue that needs to be addressed.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Oct 20, 2010 - 11:32am PT
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Who pulled posts and why would they.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 20, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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I actually think this has been a pretty good discussion covering both sides of this issue. This is an etiquette issue specific to the climbing community that every one of us has had to deal with at one time or another. It is really situational and the specifics of the climb and the personalities involved leads to various solutions.
My personal rule... No tying people off or shooting them ... unless they piss on your head.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 20, 2010 - 11:43am PT
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There appears to be a discussion here based on incomplete information about a few jackasses, dominated by someone who claims to climb armed. Yeah, count me in.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 20, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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Somebody pushes past me and farts on my head and he has broken the winds of war!
Time to bust a cap in his azz.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 20, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
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Isn't the guy heeding nature's various calls right over your head the last person you'd want to tie off?
What is the penalty of euros who smoke at your belay when you let them pass?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Oct 20, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
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It'll cost 'em a smoke, at least.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 20, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
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No- the tie off happens after they pee on you. Gotta keep them immobilized while you take aim with the firearm....or is blood all over the route bad etiquette for the following parties? I'm so confused now.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 20, 2010 - 01:04pm PT
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Blood on a route is, as it always has been, food for thought.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 20, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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LOL @ Ron ;)
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Oct 20, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
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15 minutes is a fair penalty for being dicks.
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Oct 20, 2010 - 02:14pm PT
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If you think everyone that asks you a polite question about sharing is really judging you and flaunting their ego of superiority, then maybe you really have a problem with insecurity and worrying about what others think about you or you just know that you suck and assume anyone that talks to you can tell as well, not sure which category you fall under
Well, insecurity has always been an issue for me. You seem like you are very confident. Would you be willing to talk some time? You could give me some ideas on building self-esteem; I could teach you about reading comprehension.
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Blakeb
Gym climber
Southern Oregon, behind her
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Oct 20, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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Wow, rokjok, most of the time the type of people that would actually make someone disappear in the wilderness dont go on public internet forums and brag to everyone about it. Thanks for the good laughs and keep on chest pounding, someone out there must be impressed.
Ron, i dont know about taking aim at climbers above that have passed, but i do fully support yours and my right to bear arms and when strolling around in the wilderness it is not a bad idea at all. You never know when you are going to meet someone like rokjok out there.
Dana, i am confident that you dont know your dick from your mouth, quit wanking, you are just making yourself look more stupid than before, i have nothing to learn from you other than how to laugh
Blake
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FireIntheCity
Mountain climber
from t'Hate-haunted canyon of human despair
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Oct 20, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
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"That sounds like a clear case of 'rope rage' to me. Suck it up!"...
So says my wife who heard me mention this over dinner tonight.
Suck it up Route Ragers! You suck!
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