Chemtrails -- Uh, Oh, It's really Happening (Not OT)

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 1 - 256 of total 256 in this topic
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 9, 2010 - 01:37am PT
This is not OT if you care for your health, and the effects it has on the natural environment. You'll never think about drinking the fresh water off the Mountain and from the environment the same way again.

A new DVD coming out Oct. 22, 2010, that is loaded with the evidence that it is indeed happening.

Do you ever get the feeling they are trying to kill us? What was that number again? Oh yea, reduce the World's population to 500 Million.

When will this evil and crap stop? Not soon enough.


WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE THEY SPRAYING? INFOWARS TRAILER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV4a49MecBA&feature=player_embedded#!
G. Edward Griffin talks about new CHEMTRAIL film
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiG-rKVBI3s&feature=player_embedded
Local news station confirms barium in chemtrails
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okB-489l6MI&feature=player_embedded


Chemtrails: What In The World Are They Spraying?
New documentary sets out to find out the truth behind government geoengineering programs
Steve Watson & Paul Watson
Infowars.com
Friday, Oct 8th, 2010
http://www.infowars.com/chemtrails-what-in-the-world-are-they-spraying/
What In The World Are They Spraying? Part I
Michael J. Murphy
Countercurrents.org
March 4, 2010
http://www.prisonplanet.com/what-in-the-world-are-they-spraying.html
What in the World Are They Spraying? Part II
Could Aluminum, Barium and Other Substances From Stratospheric Aerosol Geo-Engineering Programs be Destroying Eco-Systems around the World?
http://www.prisonplanet.com/what-in-the-world-are-they-spraying-part-ii.html



graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:44am PT
I don't see any chemtrails

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:46am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:47am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:49am PT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:50am PT
Do you think that they're using the giant ark from the backside of the Moon to do the spraying?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:51am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:54am PT
Which set comes from the aliens?

Hint: it's not Q.

Answers are below.

















































































A. Black Bear (Ursus americanus)
B. Coyote (Canis latrans)
C. Moose (Alces alces)
D. Elk (Cervus canadensis)
E. Mule Deer (Odocoileus hemionus)
F. Marmot (Marmota flaviventris)
G. Bighorn Sheep (Ovis canadensis)
H. Snowshoe Hare (Lepus americanus)
I. Jackrabbit (Lepus townsendii)
J. Cottontail (Sylvilagus nuttallii)
K. Ptarmigan (Lagopus leucurus)
L. Dusky Grouse (Dendragapus obscurus)
M. Ground Squirrel (Spermophilus richardsonii)
N. Chickaree (Tamiasciurus hudsonicus)
O. Woodrat (Neotoma cinerea)
P. Chipmunk (Tamias quadrivittatus)
Q. Pika (Ochotona princeps)
R. Little Brown Bat (Myotis volans)
Chinchen

climber
Way out there....
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:56am PT
I vote C
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:57am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:58am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:59am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:01am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:04am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:04am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:09am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:10am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:13am PT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:16am PT
We'll put graniteclimber down as undecided.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:21am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:22am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:45am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:46am PT
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:50am PT
I would say that the chem trails have already gotten to some folks. The man child thing with the beafeater gin certainly has the look.

This thread sure went super nova fast. haha..

It needs waffles though.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 03:39am PT
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 9, 2010 - 03:39am PT
It needs waffles though.

Or maybe nuns.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2010 - 10:46am PT
Only ridicule and ad hominem attacks. That is all we ever get from you guys. Do you have a thinking brain cell at all? And probably not one of you has ever looked into it honestly.

Scientific organizations, journals, conferences are looking into it, discussing it in open publicly that this is a viable thing to do to turn global warming around. That is indisputable.

When they are already discussing it openly, they are already doing it. The empirical evidence is already there. They are finding the Aluminum Oxide with Barium. The actual compound that they say would work best, is already being sprayed, and being found on the ground and collected afterwards, after observed spraying.

They didn't ask our permission to do this. There were no environmental impact studies performed. They just do it, and many people have captured it on video. The World over! It is not vapor trails from aircraft that dissipate quickly. The evidence is overwhelming. We have visual evidence. We have photographic evidence. They know they are up there, there is RADAR evidence. Then there is the fallout of the substance that is being sprayed. This is being collected and analyzed in the lab. Then scientists are discussing doing this exact method to combat global warming. They are already doing it.

Pull your heads out. Wake up!

I get the feeling that some here on ST will go merrily and happily along with anything "they" do to us. No matter what the overwhelming evidence that it is occurring tells you. You just go skipping along holding hands and whistling the theme song to the Teletubbies as ignorant as a child.

Anyone tells you different, just attack them. How dare they try to wake us up from our slumber, our perfect happy dream-time. We want to continue to sleep. Nappy time. Go back to sleep.

Wow, sorry I disturbed your happy nap time. Just put your thumbs back in your mouths, and curl up with your little blankies, and just go back to sleep.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
Oct 9, 2010 - 11:05am PT
Klimmer- Let's try to narrow things down. Which conspiracy theories do you think AREN'T true?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 9, 2010 - 11:12am PT
You can be sure they never even bothered to check out the info you posited.

Or they looked in the past and found it to be bunk. Just a thought. We have had a thread on this before.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2010 - 11:17am PT
HDDJ,

False assumption and sorry attempt at ridicule.


Q: Do people conspire to do wrong, to attempt to get an advantage over others, for profit, and then break the law in doing so? Do people ever do this for whatever motive?




Duh. We all know the answer to that question. So conspiracies do indeed happen. You gonna argue with this answer?


Now you got to figure it all out. They are on offense, and we are on defense. In many ways they have the advantage.


Evil does indeed occur. It seems it gets worse year by year.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 9, 2010 - 11:19am PT
Klimmer seeks and gets his persecution complex stoked.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 9, 2010 - 11:21am PT
He made the paper again

wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Oct 9, 2010 - 11:22am PT
Oh my god!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory

Read "Overview".
I don't want to spoil it...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2010 - 11:31am PT
chemtrails , a song by beck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VmAQqi3OJc



Wake up!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2010 - 11:39am PT
Chemtrails UK Government admits deadly spraying
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VLNNwiKvlE&feature=fvw





Yes, it did happen and it is happening again now -- today.
Knave

climber
Oct 9, 2010 - 11:41am PT
Good Christ Klimmer! One project at a time. They's jus tryin to patch a hole up the sky... er make it rain a bit more here n there.

Rx: Go climb, release your fears, live as if there is no afterlife.

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 9, 2010 - 11:48am PT
We? Us? Them? They?....Who?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2010 - 11:54am PT
Check out the US Patents for the technology to do Chemtrail spraying . . .
http://www.stopchemtrailsuk.bravehost.com/


Here is the article from the UK Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2002/apr/21/uk.medicalscience

Much of Britain was exposed to bacteria sprayed in secret trials

Antony Barnett, public affairs editor
Observer

antony.barnett@observer.co.uk
Sunday April 21, 2002


The Ministry of Defence turned large parts of the country into a giant laboratory to conduct a series of secret germ warfare tests on the public.

A government report just released provides for the first time a comprehensive official history of Britain's biological weapons trials between 1940 and 1979.

Many of these tests involved releasing potentially dangerous chemicals and micro-organisms over vast swaths of the population without the public being told.

While details of some secret trials have emerged in recent years, the 60-page report reveals new information about more than 100 covert experiments.

The report reveals that military personnel were briefed to tell any 'inquisitive inquirer' the trials were part of research projects into weather and air pollution.

The tests, carried out by government scientists at Porton Down, were designed to help the MoD assess Britain's vulnerability if the Russians were to have released clouds of deadly germs over the country.

In most cases, the trials did not use biological weapons but alternatives which scientists believed would mimic germ warfare and which the MoD claimed were harmless. But families in certain areas of the country who have children with birth defects are demanding a public inquiry.

One chapter of the report, 'The Fluorescent Particle Trials', reveals how between 1955 and 1963 aeroplanes flew from north-east England to the tip of Cornwall along the south and west coasts, dropping huge amounts of zinc cadmium sulphide on the population. The chemical drifted miles inland, its fluorescence allowing the spread to be monitored. In another trial using zinc cadmium sulphide, a generator was towed along a road near Frome in Somerset where it spewed the chemical for an hour.

While the Government has insisted the chemical is safe, cadmium is recognised as a cause of lung cancer and during the Second World War was considered by the Allies as a chemical weapon.

In another chapter, 'Large Area Coverage Trials', the MoD describes how between 1961 and 1968 more than a million people along the south coast of England, from Torquay to the New Forest, were exposed to bacteria including e.coli and bacillus globigii , which mimics anthrax. These releases came from a military ship, the Icewhale, anchored off the Dorset coast, which sprayed the micro-organisms in a five to 10-mile radius.

The report also reveals details of the DICE trials in south Dorset between 1971 and 1975. These involved US and UK military scientists spraying into the air massive quantities of serratia marcescens bacteria, with an anthrax simulant and phenol.

Similar bacteria were released in 'The Sabotage Trials' between 1952 and 1964. These were tests to determine the vulnerability of large government buildings and public transport to attack. In 1956 bacteria were released on the London Underground at lunchtime along the Northern Line between Colliers Wood and Tooting Broadway. The results show that the organism dispersed about 10 miles. Similar tests were conducted in tunnels running under government buildings in Whitehall.

Experiments conducted between 1964 and 1973 involved attaching germs to the threads of spiders' webs in boxes to test how the germs would survive in different environments. These tests were carried out in a dozen locations across the country, including London's West End, Southampton and Swindon. The report also gives details of more than a dozen smaller field trials between 1968 and 1977.

In recent years, the MoD has commissioned two scientists to review the safety of these tests. Both reported that there was no risk to public health, although one suggested the elderly or people suffering from breathing illnesses may have been seriously harmed if they inhaled sufficient quantities of micro-organisms.

However, some families in areas which bore the brunt of the secret tests are convinced the experiments have led to their children suffering birth defects, physical handicaps and learning difficulties.

David Orman, an army officer from Bournemouth, is demanding a public inquiry. His wife, Janette, was born in East Lulworth in Dorset, close to where many of the trials took place. She had a miscarriage, then gave birth to a son with cerebral palsy. Janette's three sisters, also born in the village while the tests were being carried out, have also given birth to children with unexplained problems, as have a number of their neighbours.

The local health authority has denied there is a cluster, but Orman believes otherwise. He said: 'I am convinced something terrible has happened. The village was a close-knit community and to have so many birth defects over such a short space of time has to be more than coincidence.'

Successive governments have tried to keep details of the germ warfare tests secret. While reports of a number of the trials have emerged over the years through the Public Records Office, this latest MoD document - which was released to Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker - gives the fullest official version of the biological warfare trials yet.

Baker said: 'I welcome the fact that the Government has finally released this information, but question why it has taken so long. It is unacceptable that the public were treated as guinea pigs without their knowledge, and I want to be sure that the Ministry of Defence's claims that these chemicals and bacteria used were safe is true.'

The MoD report traces the history of the UK's research into germ warfare since the Second World War when Porton Down produced five million cattle cakes filled with deadly anthrax spores which would have been dropped in Germany to kill their livestock. It also gives details of the infamous anthrax experiments on Gruinard on the Scottish coast which left the island so contaminated it could not be inhabited until the late 1980s.

The report also confirms the use of anthrax and other deadly germs on tests aboard ships in the Caribbean and off the Scottish coast during the 1950s. The document states: 'Tacit approval for simulant trials where the public might be exposed was strongly influenced by defence security considerations aimed obviously at restricting public knowledge. An important corollary to this was the need to avoid public alarm and disquiet about the vulnerability of the civil population to BW [biological warfare] attack.'

Sue Ellison, spokeswoman for Porton Down, said: 'Independent reports by eminent scientists have shown there was no danger to public health from these releases which were carried out to protect the public.

'The results from these trials_ will save lives, should the country or our forces face an attack by chemical and biological weapons.'

Asked whether such tests are still being carried out, she said:
'It is not our policy to discuss ongoing research.'








Naw, it doesn't happen. Just go back to sleep.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 11:57am PT
Klimmer, do any of your students' parents realize that their "science" teacher is:









bat-sh#t, off his rocker, out of his mind, lost his marbles, crazy, nutty as a fruitcake, CRAZY!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 9, 2010 - 11:58am PT
You guys let this paranoid lunatic teach in a public school?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 11:58am PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2010 - 11:59am PT
GC,

Argue the above evidence and stop the personal attacks. Or don't you have the brains to do so?

All you got is ridicule.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
follow the chem trail?

i think i found it, should i get a "i found it!" bumper sticker?


graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:04pm PT
This would be a good bumper sticker for Klimmer.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
My guess is that if our friend K is really a teacher, it is at a private christian school.

Klimmer, do you know anything about the physics of contrail formation? It is interesting and semi-complex physics. Landau and Lifshitz laid it all out.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
My guess is that if our friend K is really a teacher, it is at a private christian school.

Klimmer, do you know anything about the physics of contrail formation? It is interesting and semi-complex physics. Landau and Lifshitz laid it all out.



Mike B.,

I do not ever talk about these things with my students in Public School. It isn't the time or the place. Seperation of Church and State. I'm fine by that. I prefer it.

I come to "wacked out" ST to discuss these things.

Hopefully, we can have an intelligent conversation regarding these matters, but some just can't get out of preschool mentality and ridicule to actually look at the evidence.


I'm more than willing to look at the physics of con-trails, or for that matter chem-trails.

Just a casual observation, con-trails dissapate quickly. Chem-trails do not. They seem to spread out and linger for a very long time and even merge together. I do not recall con-trails ever doing this.

Let's be honest, con-trails have never been an issue except for maybe ruining an Ansel Adams or Galen Rowell like image in the back country. It hasn't been until, what maybe the 1990s that people started to notice a significant difference and started asking questions.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
Was NWO in the vaccine conspiracy thread getting too much attention Klimmer?
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
it's the Chronic.

i've seen it before.

teachers get straight, the flash backs from Nam go away, then one day,

a student brings a spliff, and damn!

the whole ugly thing rears it's ugly head again and pretty soon you start having dreams about your dead grandmother sitting on your chest with a bowie knife.

oh, and you guys wanna pass prop 19, this is a perfect example of why some kids should not due drugs,

do you want the whole state of california to end up fruit loops like the moon arc guy or whatever?

nature

climber
Whereverland....
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
Hopefully, we can have an intelligent conversation regarding these matters,

don't count on it. you have a track record. your conspiracy theory posts have been debunked far to many times for you to stand a chance at intelligent conversation. you won't get it because you blew it long ago.

though if you do start getting serious discussion I'll have to remember to short aluminum stocks.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
Is that one of klimmer's non-imaginary friends?
nature

climber
Whereverland....
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
I think so and I think it also happens to be Weld_it's pops.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
Klimmer-
False assumption and sorry attempt at ridicule.


More like humorous attempt to narrow things down a bit. There are few well known conspiracy theories that you have yet to champion in GREAT detail on this forum, so where's the line? Is Hillary Clinton a shapeshifting lizard from the 6th dimension? Just trying to see where on the tinfoil spectrum you saw "whoa now, that is pretty nuts."
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
SoCal
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
I'm not subscribing to the conspiracies and I admit I've followed no links earlier in this thread due to lack of interest.

HOWEVER

Exhaust from jet planes is a serious environmental problem. North America has a constant brown haze at about 30,000 ft due to plane traffic.

During the 3 days after 9/11 when all flights were grounded, we had this surreal clear view of the stars.

We need to find ways to move around freely without spewing crap all over the place.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
Just a casual observation, con-trails dissapate quickly. Chem-trails do not. They seem to spread out and linger for a very long time and even merge together. I do not recall con-trails ever doing this.

Klimm buddy, if you think this statement is a good start to an intelligent conversation then the conversation is over! Do some reading about how contrails form and dissipate if you have any interest in being able to think about this in an informed way. Don't bring your recollection into the debate unless you have been studying contrails carefully for the timescale of your recollection and have factored in how flightpaths have been changed, particularly in altitude over the last two decades.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 9, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
Can you post the best summation of a scientific study that this is happening now Klimmer?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
Dihydrogen monoxide is dangerous stuff. Kills thousands every year.

Klimmer's smart to be concerned about trails of it in the upper atmosphere.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
Spider said
HOWEVER

Exhaust from jet planes is a serious environmental problem. North America has a constant brown haze at about 30,000 ft due to plane traffic.


Plane exhaust is not chemtrails. Exhaust is a byproduct of uncombusted jet fuel. Chemtrails are chemicals purposefully sprayed from planes to give us all cancer/AIDS/mindcontrol drugs.
nature

climber
Whereverland....
Oct 9, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
sincere advise here, Klimmer. Please acknowledge, m'k?

First:
On this forum quit with the phrase "Wake up". Many here are awake. If you believe that then ask yourself again why you get the reaction you do.

I appreciate your efforts. I want people to be inquisitive. But HDDJ makes a good point - at what point do YOU draw the line and say, "whoa, stop, that's just nuts!."? If you want us to view your posts with any credibility we need a gage on that.

Second:
less pasting of articles and more links. In particular don't cherry pick.

I end up skimming over quotes from articles because I want to read it from the source so I can then judge how much I trust that particular source.

Third:
Less volume all the way around. Be more concise. See if you can pull off what couchmaster just asked you to do.


Look.... I do think you are a little nutty. maybe you are not at all. but the way you read on this forum suggests nutty. Some of the conspiracy stuff you post I wonder about as well. I'm not sold on the public 911 story at all. I'm certain that one bullet didn't bounce around a car a number of times eventually killing Kennedy with said bullet only to be found later completely in tact. Some of the people that have been in power in our government are very shady people. Money, Power, Greed == not always the nicest people. And our Government has been shown to be a part of conspiracies.

But think about your approach a little bit. I've learned stuff from posts you've started. Most likely what I learned probably wasn't what you were "teaching".

You stir the pot.

Hell, you might be surprised how many people on this forum don't completely disregard the possibilities of Chemtrails and gov't envolvement. I don't doubt it but I do find that I often doubt your sources.


Real question for you: when was the last magnetic shift of the Earth (compass points south).
I know of two dates. The first is what I, as a scientist, know to be valid. The second is what a different type of individuals has come up with.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
Dihydrogen monoxide - the silent killer.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:25pm PT
Especially when it's in gaseous state, at 35,000ft altitude, and formed into long, straight lines.

Who's doing this, and why ?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
It particularly preys on children, adolescents, and the intoxicated.

Stop dihydrogen monoxide, before it kills again!

I'm sure there's a government-illumanati-klimmerati-new world order-space alien conspiracy responsible for it.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:49pm PT


Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 9, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
the strip down nurse told me i was tri polar,
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
You can't make this up!

"Mr. Simpson's Weird Science World"




"*This is a Warning: Mr. Simpson has not, does not, and will not ever have a MySpace. Any MySpace that purports to be so, is fake, fraudulent and unauthorized. I would rather volunteer my time to the public pound to floss the teeth of homeless dogs than to waste my time on MySpace. Any individual, who authors or contributes to derogatory websites claiming to be someone who they are not are prosecutable by law for criminal libel, false impersonation (which is a felony), and can be charged for such crimes and sued for defamation. If you, or if you know someone who has done this to another individual or to a teacher, I would highly advise that you/they delete the offending website immediately."


http://henry.sandi.net/staff/gsimpson/root/index.html
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
Look at the picture on Klimmer's teacher page (see my post above)and compare them to the pictures in my post on May 13th. "Think of this thread as a trip report from the very weird universe that Klimmer mentally lives in."

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1156814&msg=1168506#msg1168506
nature

climber
Whereverland....
Oct 9, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
I just took my chill pills!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
GC,

If it were up to me I would remove you from ST. Too bad Chris Mac doesn't.

You clearly can't argue. Only personal attacks are what you do.


This should concern every climber here at ST. If you care about the environment that we all love so much. Open your eyes.


Stratospheric Aerosol Geo-engineering (SAG)



http://www.prisonplanet.com/what-in-the-world-are-they-spraying-part-ii.html


The first stop on this trip led me to Dane Wigington’s beautiful 2000 acre property overlooking Lake Shasta. As we toured his breath-taking land, he pointed to multiple trails that blanketed the sky. He claimed the trails are present on most days above Northern California. Wigington referred to this as a “moderate spraying day”. Like many other residents in Shasta County, Wigington moved to the area to get away from the heavy pollution of Southern California that he grew up with as a child. His dreams of living off the land and becoming one with nature are now coming to a grinding halt as he is focusing his time and energy on the issue of geo-engineering.

Wigington became concerned about SAG when he began to notice dramatic changes in the solar power that he uses to supply his home and property. Owner of one of the largest residential solar systems in Northern California, he began to notice very high declines in solar power. It can be decreased by as much as 60 percent on what he calls “heavy spraying days”. Wigington said, “The trails are literally blocking the sun”. He also went on to say that he regularly samples the fine dust layers on top of his solar panels and other outdoor surface areas and frequently finds very high levels of aluminum and barium. Wigington believes that these are a product of SAG programs.

At the same time as finding decreased solar power, Wigington also began to witness dramatic changes on his property as the trees, grass, insects and wildlife started dying. This led him to get his first rain test just four years ago. The results were shocking as they found aluminum levels at 7 ug/l or 7 parts per billion. Although aluminum can be found around the world in smaller quantities, geo-hydrologists told him that this number was quite high. Since that time, he has had aluminum tests escalate as high as 50,000 percent to 3,400ug/l. That is literally toxic rain. These results prompted him to get additional pH tests from two USDA soil scientists which yielded more shocking results. The pH of the soil was 6.6 in one area and 7.4 in another. This is over 11 times the normal alkalinity of the soil which should be in the range of 5.0 to 5.5. It is important to note the tests were taken in the forest far removed from any highway or industry.

When asked what these changes can do to the ecosystem, Wigington replied by saying that it is devastating. He went on to say, “if this continues, we can only expect to see things get much worse. Not only are we seeing our trees dying here, but also a major decline in our wildlife and fish”. As a matter of fact, Wigington stated that according to The National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration, the salmon run, once seen in abundance in this area has declined from 769,868 in 2002 to 39,530 in 2009. That is over a 90 percent decline. Amazingly enough, this decline started occurring about the same period of time when residents began to see a dramatic increase in what they believe to be SAG programs. Wigington’s efforts to get these issues and test results addressed has been largely ignored by government agencies and officials.

After a closer look at Wigington’s property, my initial awe of the beauty and breath taking views led to sadness, frustration and anger over the contamination that is literally destroying the eco-system. This led me to investigate further by seeking an expert in biology. I packed up the car and headed north to the breathtaking town of Mt. Shasta. Mt. Shasta has been known for its beauty, clean air and as being the source of water for some bottled water companies. Many travel from around the world to mountain climb and vacation in this beautiful part of Western America.

Francis Mangels, BS in Forestry, Masters in zoology and a retired soil conservationist and wildlife biologist who worked for the U.S. Forest Service for over thirty five years, welcomed me into his beautiful home in the town of Mt. Shasta to discuss the “hidden” crisis that is occurring. Mangels alerted me to the rapid decline of fish in the nearby rivers and streams. Mangels brought me to a nearby creek that had an abundant supply of fish just a few years ago. Because the primary diet of the fish in the creek is aquatic insects, he performed a standard sample method to measure the amount of insects present. The samples he had performed before the alleged aerosol spraying campaign had yielded an average of 1000 aquatic insects. Our sample yielded only 31. This is over a 96% decline from samples taken just a few years ago. Mangels stated that because the fish live off of the insects, they are literally starving. This rapid decline is likely due to changes in the chemistry of the water. The only changes that Mangels is aware of are the dramatic increases of aluminum, barium and strontium which he believes is from SAG programs.

We also took time to test the pH of nearby soil and snow which contained over 10 times the alkalinity of the normal pH. Mangels has evidence that this drastic change in pH is also due to the massive increases of aluminum. He stated that forests, fields and farm ecologies thrive in acidic soils. Aluminum acts as a buffer that increases alkalinity and can decimate ecologies in large amounts. Mangels also pointed out that snow on Mt. Shasta was tested and sent to the Environmental Protection Agency (E.P.A.) who found results that contained 61,100 ug/l or parts per billion of aluminum and 83 ug/l of barium. The normal amount of aluminum in the snow at Mt. Shasta is 0.5 ug/l. Drinking water allowable is 50ug/l. That means that the snow on Mt. Shasta has tested at 1200 times more poisonous than water standards allow for aluminum. Mangels said, “Mountain climbers that come from around the world are drinking the poisonous water from the snow on the mountain”. Mangels went on to say that government action is required at just 1000 ug/l of detected aluminum. Although he alerted several government agencies of these findings, no governmental action has been taken to date.

Mengels brought me to several other locations around the town of Mt. Shasta where he tested the soil, rain, water and snow that also yielded tests that revealed the pH to be over ten times the normal alkalinity. He went on to say that these types of changes in soil, water and snow are very uncommon except in other areas around the world where people have been witnessing what many believe to be spraying from SAG programs. Mengels also stated that these changes have produced an “ecological crisis” and will have horrible consequences if continued. Mengels said, “Losses to our economy will be incredible and are on their way as we speak. Tree growth will be decreased which will result in the loss of logging jobs. It is also causing the decline of naturally occurring plant and grass growth that occurs in the normally acidic soils of grazing pastures, resulting in the demise of our grazing industry, fishing industry, and worst of all, basic agriculture in Northern California.”

What is amazing is that these tests and many others throughout the world are largely being ignored by the very governmental entities that are required to address them. Some politicians, like Mt. Shasta City Council member Ed Valenzuela may choose to ignore the issue. Valenzuela was made aware of the mass contamination at a city council meeting where he stated that the city did not want to sample the water for aluminum because the request was a “can of worms” that would, “open a Pandora’s box” that the city would have to pay for. Although several local citizens volunteered to pay the $22.00 cost of the test at an EPA lab, both Republican Committee Chairman Russ Porterfield, and Valenzuela voted no to having the water tested. The mayor Stearns wanted the test, but was overruled by a 3-2 vote. This response is not uncommon as Mengels has presented this issue and his scientific data to over 15 local and federal agencies including Senator Feinstein and Senator Boxer’s office. To date he has received no response or action.

nature

climber
Whereverland....
Oct 9, 2010 - 04:24pm PT
Klimmer, I guess you didn't read my post?
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 9, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
Chemtrails are fiction, lets be real ...

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
Oct 9, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
nwo said
Calm down, gc.

You're gonna burst a blood vessel, getting all riled up the way you are. Take a pill and think happy thoughts.


*believes the media, the military and the healthcare industry are colluding to sterilize people through vaccinations*
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 9, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
Klimmer says we should take the time to investigate all of his claims....but its actually impossible to do so. Think about trying to investigate all of the claims listed below. It would take more than a lifetime. So,

If its looks likes BS, smells like BS, and acts like BS, its probably BS.

And, Klimmer. We are wide awake and listening to you. Which of these do you believe in? You have made it clear that you do not think the moon landing of fake.....so it begs the question, on what basis do you form a belief in conspiracy? I'm dying to know.







New World Order
Main article: New World Order (conspiracy)

This conspiracy theory states that a small group of international elites controls and manipulates governments, industry, and media organizations worldwide. The primary tool they use to dominate nations is the system of central banking. They are said to have funded and in some cases caused most of the major wars of the last 200 years, carry out false flag attacks to manipulate populations into supporting them, and they have a grip on the world economy, deliberately causing inflation and depressions at will. Operatives working for the New World Order are said to be placed in high positions in government and industry. The people behind the New World Order are thought to be international bankers, in particular the owners of the private banks in the Federal Reserve System and other central banks, and members of the Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission and Bilderberg Group.[2] The New World Order is also said to control supranational and global organizations such as the European Union, United Nations, World Bank, International Monetary Fund and the proposed North American Union. The term gained popularity following its use in the early 1990s, first by President George H. W. Bush when he referred to his "dream of a New World Order" in his speech to the United States Congress on September 11, 1990, and second by David Rockefeller in a statement to the United Nations Business Council in September 1994, sometimes cited as evidence that the New World Order had a motive for carrying out the September 11, 2001 attacks:

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."[3]

The concept of this shadow government predates 1990; it is accused of being the same group of people who, among other things, created the Federal Reserve Act (1913), supported the Bolshevik Revolution (1917), and supported the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany, all for their own agenda.[4] The World Bank and national central banks are said to be the tools of the New World Order; war generates massive profits for central banks because government spending (hence borrowing at interest from the central banks) increases dramatically in times of war.[5] Many conspiracy theorists believe that Denver International Airport is the western U.S. headquarters of the New World Order, and a massive underground base and city is believed to exist underneath the airport. Reasons for this include the airport's unusually large size (larger than some major cities), distance from the Denver, Colorado city center, and the set of bizarre murals depicting burning cities, gas-mask wearing soldiers, girls in coffins, Masonic symbols and strange writing.[6] It is believed that secret fleets of black helicopters are ready to take control when the New World Order is set up.
[edit] Federal Reserve System

The New World Order is said to control the wealth of nations through central banks, via the issuance of currency. The Federal Reserve System is the central bank of the United States, though not a part of the government, created in 1913. There is a theory that the Federal Reserve System is designed to transfer wealth from the poor and middle classes of the United States to the international bankers of the New World Order.[7]
[edit]

False flag operations

False flag operations are covert operations conducted by governments, corporations, or other organizations, which are designed to appear as if they are being carried out by other entities. Numerous conspiracy theories have developed suggesting that false flag operations have been carried out throughout the 20th century, and the secrecy of the true nature of the events have been maintained by successful cover-ups. The following are some attacks that are believed by some to be examples of false flag attacks:

* The sinking of the RMS Lusitania was provoked in order to put the United States into World War I.
* On February 27, 1933, the German parliament, the Reichstag building, was subject to an arson attack; this is seen as the pivotal event for the appropriation of authoritarian power by the government of Nazi Germany. Several leading German historians concluded that the fire was a secret Nazi operation for which the Nazis then blamed a communist.[8]
* Gulf of Tonkin incident was a hoax to start the Vietnam War.
* Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge debate
* Pan Am Flight 103 conspiracy theories.
* Columbine conspiracy theories.
* Korean Air Lines Flight 007, a political thriller novel suggests that the 1983 shoot-down of a 747 was plotted by U.S. and Soviet military and political figures in order to capture Larry McDonald.
* The 1993 World Trade Center bombing was allegedly orchestrated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.[citation needed]
* Martin Bryant, the perpetrator of the 1996 Port Arthur massacre, is said to have been framed, and that the massacre was engineered by the Australian government in order to facilitate gun control.
* Former GRU officer Aleksey Galkin,[9] former FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko [10] and other defectors from the Russian government and security services have asserted that the 1999 Russian apartment bombings, which precipitated the Second Chechen War, were false flag operations perpetrated by the FSB, the successor organization to the KGB.
* Many 9/11 conspiracy theories have been presented to explain the September 11, 2001 attacks, many of them claiming that individuals in the United States government knew about the attacks beforehand and purposefully allowed them to occur, or orchestrated the attacks themselves, as a pretext for the "War on Terror", wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, increased militarization, expansion of the police state, and other intrusive foreign and domestic policies by which they would benefit. If they did orchestrate the attacks themselves, the hijackers would in reality be agents of the U.S. government carrying out the operation for political purposes. Proponents point to the Project for the New American Century, a conservative think tank that argues for increased American global leadership, whose former members include ex-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, former Vice President Dick Cheney and several other key Bush administration figures. A 2000 report from the group stated that "some catastrophic and catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor" would be needed as a pretext for carrying out their plans for "United States global hegemony" in the 21st century. The 9/11 Truth Movement is the self-bestowed name of those who seek the purported "truth" about 9/11.
* Rumours and conspiracy theories about the July 2005 London bombings allege that intelligence services were behind the attacks.[citation needed]

Wars

The motivations for nations starting, entering, or ending wars are often brought into question by conspiracy theorists. Munitions suppliers are often blamed[11] for devising, coordinating and precipitating the events that lead nations into war, either in part or in toto. According to this view, there is always a party within a nation that benefits from war, on whatever pretext: the suppliers of weapons and other military material. President Dwight Eisenhower referred to this source of potential conflict of interest as the military-industrial complex. President Abraham Lincoln is known to have made a similar observation near the close of the American Civil War.

Related is the allegation that certain wars which are claimed by politicians to be in the national interest, or for humanitarian purposes, are in fact motivated by the conquest and control of natural resources for commercial interest. In the Spanish-American War, the explosion of the USS Maine prompted the United States annexation of Puerto Rico, the Philippines, and Guam. Opponents of the war, such as Mark Twain and Andrew Carnegie, claimed that it was being fought for imperialist motives.

A war planned for economic gain can be seen as a conspiracy in the conventional sense of a secret plot — particularly when the public is presented with false pretexts for war. It has also been suggested that war is a perfect way of distracting citizens, as an electoral tactic, from difficulties facing the current government. This premise is the basis of the film Wag the Dog, and the George Orwell novel 1984. Some have claimed[who?] that this was the motivation behind the Falklands War. At that time the National Reorganization Process, the right-wing dictatorship that ruled Argentina between 1976 and 1983, was facing increasing discontent among the population and this may have contributed to the decision to invade the Falkland Islands. In many cases, critics have accused the U.S. of engaging in realpolitik in the cynical sense of political action without regard for principle or morals. In recent times, wars in the Middle East such as the Gulf War and the invasion of Iraq have been described as wars for oil.
[edit] Coups d'état

Governments, particularly the United States government, have been accused of carrying out false flag coups d'état, in order to install friendly governments in foreign countries. Some of these have since been acknowledged - such as Operation Ajax (1953), a covert coup to topple the democratically elected leaders of Iran. Some other coups that some believe may have been actively supported by the United States government include the following:

* 1958 Pakistani coup d'état.
* 1963 The Kennedy assassination (President John F. Kennedy)
* 1965 30 September Movement.
* 1968 Robert F. Kennedy assassination (presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy).
* 1973 Chilean coup d'état The Augusto Pinochet regime takeover in Chile and the death of president Salvador Allende in the coup bombing of the La Moneda presidential palace. Declassified documents confirmed the U.S. intervention.[12]
* 1975 Bangladeshi coup d'état.
* 1975 Gough Whitlam – theory that the dismissal of Australian Prime Minister Gough Whitlam by Governor-General John Kerr was brought about by U.S. intelligence operatives unhappy with Whitlam's economic, social and foreign policies.[citation needed]
* 1977 Pakistani coup d'état.
* 1980 Turkish coup d'état.
* 1991 Haiti coup d'état.
* 1992 Venezuelan coup d'état attempts.
* 1998 Indonesian Revolution.
* 2000 The overthrow of Yugoslavia (Serbian) president Slobodan Milošević, see Overthrow of Slobodan Milošević.
* 2002 Venezuelan coup d'état attempt.

Official Conspiracy Theories

Some conspiracy theories have been advanced by governmental organizations.

* 1947 International Communist Conspiracy
* 1968 Chicago Conspiracy Trial
* 1998 Vast Right Wing Conspiracy

Assassinations
See also: List of assassinated people

Conspiracy theories sometimes emerge following assassinations of prominent people. The best known is the assassination of John F. Kennedy (1963), which has caused a number of conspiracy theories to develop. Central to this theory is the claim that the injuries received by Kennedy and Governor John Connally could not have been caused by a lone gunman behind the motorcade and to the right. This theory was popularised by the Oliver Stone movie, JFK. Three polls conducted in 2003 suggest that there is widespread disbelief among the U.S. public about the official story of a lone gunman between 68% and 83%.[13]

The assassinations of Robert F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X are also the subject of conspiracy theories. In many cases, it is asserted that a "Manchurian candidate" may have been used. Often evidence for such theories includes the reactions by individuals and government agencies following the events, such as the creation of biased commissions to conduct official investigations. The question of "Who benefits?" is also often asked, with conspiracy theorists asserting that insiders often have far more powerful motives than those to whom the assassination is attributed by mainstream society. Earlier examples of assassinations about which there are conspiracy theories include those of Abraham Lincoln and Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria. The assassinations of historical figures, such as Eric V of Denmark and Tsarevich Dmitry Ivanovich of Russia remain subject to conspiracy theories. More recent examples include those of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, Carrero Blanco, Benigno Aquino, Jr., Olof Palme, Yitzhak Rabin, Alexander Litvinenko and Benazir Bhutto.

Some deaths that are officially recorded as accident, suicide or natural causes are also the subject of some conspiracy theories. Examples include the car crash that killed Diana, Princess of Wales and Dodi Fayed in 1997, the death of John F. Kennedy Jr. in a plane crash in 1999, and the death of Senator Paul Wellstone in a plane crash in 2002. Other examples include: the suicide of Deputy White House Counsel Vincent Foster; the plane crash that killed United States Secretary of Commerce Ron Brown; the Mayerling Incident; and the deaths of U.S. Presidents Zachary Taylor and Lyndon B. Johnson, Władysław Sikorski, James Forrestal, British political leader Hugh Gaitskell, Australian prime minister Harold Holt, James P. Brady, New Zealand prime minister Norman Kirk, Jimmy Hoffa and David Kelly. There are also theories about untimely deaths of celebrities, the number one example arguably being the death of Marilyn Monroe, but also Sam Cooke, Brian Jones, Tupac Shakur, Christopher Wallace, Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, Jeff Buckley, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Elvis Presley, Bob Marley, John Lennon, and more recently Michael Jackson.

There are also theories that some assassination attempts have been carried out by secret conspiracies, in some cases failures but in other cases entirely staged events. The motive for staging an unsuccessful assassination attempt can be to augment the popularity of the person involved; public opinion polls tend to be boosted by unsuccessful attempts on the life of a prominent politician. There have been numerous unsuccessful attempts to assassinate U.S. Presidents. Some of them, such as the attempted assassinations of Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush have aroused suspicion from conspiracy theorists that the events might have been staged.

In India there are several conspiracy theories circulating about the 1945 death of pro-Axis Indian nationalist leader Subhas Chandra Bose - that he did not die in an accident, as officially claimed, but was assassinated; that he did not die at that time, but much later; or that he is still alive and hidden somewhere.
[edit] Clinton Body Count

The Clinton Body Count, as it is popularly known, is a conspiracy theory that Bill Clinton, while he was president and before, was quietly assassinating his associates (ostensibly anyone who got in the way of his career, such as Vince Foster). It was started as a retaliation to the Bush Body Count (which ostensibly had various members of the Bush family responsible for events like JFK assassination and the October surprise merrily killing lesser co-conspirators on their way).[14] The Clinton Body Count is a list of about 50-60 associates of Clinton who have died "under mysterious circumstance".[15] The list began circulating over the Internet starting in the mid-1990s. [16][17] The list grew out of a 1993 list of about 24 names prepared by the pro-gun lobby group American Justice Federation[18] which was led by Linda Thompson. The list was posted to the group's Bulletin board system.[19] Snopes.com has debunked this list, noting 1) many of those claimed to be assassinated actually died from very well documented accidents that leave no possibility of assassination 2) a political figure who becomes President of the United States will have a loosely defined circle of "associates", and many of these associates are in dangerous positions (police officers, pilots, soldiers) or older men in high stress jobs (therefore at greater risk of dying of stress related disease or suicide).

Technology and weapons
See also: List of topics characterized as pseudoscience
Suppression of technologies

* Avro Arrow—Cancellation of this system.
* Termination of rocket experiments at Cuxhaven.
* Vril Society Conspiracy which suggests that a secret form of energy, called "Vril", is used and controlled by a secret subterranean society of matriarchal socialist utopian superior beings.[20] The theory also claims that Nazi Germany used this technology to create advanced aircraft (flying saucers).
* A typical suppressed invention story is that of the incredibly efficient automobile carburetor, whose inventor was supposedly killed or hounded into obscurity by petroleum companies desirous to protect their business from an engine that would make their product obsolete. It has been claimed that the Elsbett diesel engine running on plant oil had to put up against unfair competition practices.
* The documentary Who Killed the Electric Car? alleged that electric car technology has been largely suppressed by big oil and gas firms. The first suppression of such occurred shortly after the turn of the 20th century (in 1899 the world's land speed record was set by an electric car at 65 mph); the second time was in 1913-1914 when the same interests sabotaged Henry Ford's and Thomas Edison's attempt to produce an 'inexpensive' electric car. This activity, and further industry conspiracies to rid the U.S. of the electric trolley system and electric trains, are documented in the book Internal Combustion, by Edwin Black.
* Nikola Tesla has been the object of several conspiracy theories, with claims relating to revolutionary energy generation and distribution technologies which may or may not have been utilised by "HAARP", an American military-funded research program. While the technology Tesla discovered was real and exists today, his discoveries have often been linked to such pseudoscience as Wilhelm Reich's "orgone" generator which was supposedly suppressed by the establishment.
* The Phoebus cartel set up in 1924 certainly seems to have stopped competition in the light bulb industry for some years, and has been accused of preventing technological advances that would have produced longer-lasting light bulbs.[21] However, the Phoebus cartel also features in Thomas Pynchon's fictional Gravity's Rainbow, which has led some to blur fact and fiction.
* Free energy suppression

Development of weapons technology

* Philadelphia Experiment - A supposed attempt to turn a U.S. Navy warship invisible that allegedly caused severe harm to on-board crew members. According to official sources, the experiment's actual goal was only to make the ship invisible to torpedoes, through degaussing technology and other methods.
* Montauk Project - A continuation of the Philadelphia Experiment, the Montauk Project would put government trained psychics (Duncan Cameron) into a program with the intent of mind control, time travel, and even mental manifestation. Although denied by the government, a few (Preston Nichols, Al Bielek) have given lectures and written books on the subject.
* High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program theory claims that HAARP could be used as directed-energy weapon, weather control, earthquake induction device and/or for mind control.[22]
* It has been speculated that the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami may have been caused intentionally by a "tsunami bomb" - a nuclear weapon detonated in a strategic position under the ocean. Some reason that the technology is at least feasible since research into such technology has been conducted by the military as far back as World War II.[citation needed] According to declassified files, top-secret "tsunami bomb" experiments utilising explosions to trigger "mini-tidal waves" were conducted off the coast of New Zealand in 1944 and 1945.[23] The U.S. Defense Department had even expressed concern about earthquake-inducing technology in warfare well before the 2004 disaster. In 1997 Defense Secretary William S. Cohen stated, "Others are engaging even in an eco-type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves. So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important." [24][not in citation given (See discussion.)]
* Chemtrail theory: Clouds behind aircraft, having the general appearance of contrails, but alleged to be chemical spraying performed for some secretive purpose.

Weapons testing

* Peter Vogel's book The Last Wave from Port Chicago argues that the Port Chicago disaster was an accidental detonation or intentional test of a nuclear weapon on ships manned by (mostly African American) U.S. sailors.[25]
* A ubiquitous and persistent rumour in Cameroon has it that the Lake Nyos carbon dioxide disaster of 1986 was caused by the U.S. or French (depending on the version) military testing a secret bomb in the lake.
* According to some theories the crashes of Arrow DC8[26] and TWA800[27] were caused by a secret electromagnetic directed-energy weapon.
* Contention lingers over the continuing after-effects of secret British nuclear testing at Maralinga, South Australia during the 1950s.
* The Venezuelan state-run TV station ViVe has claimed that the 2010 Haiti earthquake was caused by US government weapons testing, and a government cover-up took place.[28]

Surveillance, espionage and intelligence agencies

Particular technologies of surveillance and control arouse concern that has bordered upon, or crossed over into, conspiracy theory. These are technologies being developed by governments which are intended to intrude into the privacy or harm the persons of citizens, particularly dissenters. Conspiracy theories of this sort cast government agencies as pursuing vast technical powers in order to spy on people, control their minds, or otherwise suppress an alienated populace. The plausibility of establishing such surveillance capabilities, by technical means or by a widespread network of informants, should perhaps be viewed in the context of events in former Eastern bloc countries, particularly the activities of the East German Stasi before the fall of the Berlin Wall. The various services provided by Google have also been considered to invade people's privacy, thus enabling intelligence agencies to monitor their activities.[citation needed]

Many governments use intelligence agencies to promote national policies in secretive ways — in several cases including the use of sabotage, propaganda, and assassination. Intelligence agencies, such as the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), KGB, MI6, BND, Inter-Services Intelligence, Internal Security Act (ISA) and Mossad, are a common element of political conspiracy theories precisely because they are known to participate in some activities similar to those described in conspiracy theories.[29] Indeed, conspiracy theories about espionage agencies go back at least as far as the 17th century, with allegations the English spymaster Robert Cecil was responsible for the Gunpowder plot of 1605. Some examples include the Pine Gap satellite tracking system in Australia, which is believed by some to be a global database used to track individuals Big Brother style, and the Government Warehouse, which is a conspiracy that alleges that the government has secret warehouses which contain articles that they do not want people to know about.

Numerous theories have been put forward surrounding Korean Air Lines Flight 007, a Boeing 747, carrying 269 people including anti-communist Cong. Larry McDonald. KAL 007 was shot down near Moneron Island by the Soviet military after it strayed into prohibited airspace in 1983.[30] These theories started in a Cold War era of heightened tensions and mutual distrust, and have been fanned by subsequent misinformation, deception, suppression of evidence and political events.
[edit] Media
[edit] DTV Transition

Some theorists claim that forced transition to digital television broadcasting is practical realization of "Big Brother" concept. They claim that miniature cameras and microphones are built into Set-top boxes and newer TV sets to spy on people. Another claim describes use of mind control technology that would be hidden in the digital signal and used to subvert the mind and feelings of the people and for subliminal advertising.[31]


Medicine

The subject of suppressed-invention conspiracy also touches on the realm of medical quackery: proponents of more unlikely forms of alternative medicine are known to allege conspiracy by mainstream doctors to suppress their cures. Such conspiracies are often said to include government regulators, to the extent that a legal decision may be relevant. Some medical conspiracy theorists argue that the medical community could actually cure supposedly "incurable" diseases such as cancer (like the noted Luigi di Bella's medicines) and AIDS if it really wanted to, but instead prefers to suppress the cures as a way of maintaining the multi-trillion dollar "cancer industry". The costs for long-term treatment are generally higher than for a one-time cure. Other medical conspiracies charge that pharmaceutical companies are in league with some medical practitioners to 'invent' new diseases, such as ADD, ADHD, HSV and HPV.

Drug legalization

Some activists and spokespersons for legalization of drugs (especially marijuana) have long espoused a theory that government and private industry conspired during the first half of the 20th century to outlaw hemp, allegedly so that it would no longer provide inexpensive competition to pulp paper and synthetic materials.[32] William Randolph Hearst is often pointed to as one of the businessmen responsible due to his involvement in the printing industry and his eminence in the public eye.[32] An extensive study on the subject has been done by Jack Herer in his book The Emperor Wears No Clothes.


Chemtrails
Main article: Chemtrail conspiracy theory

Some people believe that chemtrails contain chemicals or biological agents purposely sprayed on the population by governments or other authorities. Not to be confused with contrails which dissipate within minutes. chemtrails linger and slowly spread.


Diet

This type of theory posits that, with the help of the food industry and the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the medical industry is generating billions in drug and treatment revenue from consumers who have become unhealthy as a result of poor or incomplete diet guidelines from the FDA. It is claimed that as long as the medical industry's dietary research studies are accepted and enforced as the measure, they will continue to suggest a minimum calorie intake above the actual healthy level, and will also continue to suppress any findings of the greater benefits of fasting and other calorie restriction type diets, and as long as the consumer continues to eat at the level suggested by the FDA, the incidence of obesity will continue to rise and the medical industry will continue to profit. Thus, it would be self-defeating for the medical industry to produce a cure for the many services that they depend on to generate revenue from unhealthy dietary practices of their customers.[citation needed]


Creation of diseases

There are claims that AIDS is a man-made disease (i.e. created by scientists in a laboratory). Some of these theories allege that HIV was created by a conspiratorial group or by a secretive agency such as the CIA. It is thought to have been created as a tool of genocide and/or population control. Other theories suggest that the virus was created as an experiment in biological and/or psychological warfare, and then escaped into the population at large by accident. Some who believe that HIV was a government creation see a precedent for it in the Tuskegee syphilis study, in which government-funded researchers deceptively denied treatment to black patients infected with a sexually transmitted disease.

It has been claimed that the CIA deliberately administered HIV to African Americans and homosexuals in the 1970s, via tainted hepatitis vaccinations.[33] Groups such as the New Black Panther Party and Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam assert that this was part of a plan to destroy the black race. Others claim that it was administered in Africa as a way of crippling the development of the continent.

There have been suggestions that either the HIV virus or a sterilizing agent has been added to polio vaccines being distributed by the World Health Organization in Nigeria. Since these claims have been in existence, there has been a marked increase in the number of polio cases in the country, because Muslim clerics have urged parents not to have their children vaccinated.[34]

Water fluoridation

Water fluoridation is the controlled addition of fluoride to a public water supply to reduce tooth decay.[35] Although almost all major health and dental organizations support water fluoridation, or have found no association with adverse effects, efforts to introduce water fluoridation meet considerable opposition whenever it is proposed.[36] Since fluoridation's inception in the 1950s, opponents have drawn on distrust of experts and unease about medicine and science.[37] Conspiracy theories involving fluoridation are common, and include the following:[36]

* Fluoridation is part of a Communist or New World Order or Illuminati plot to take over the world. This notion is mentioned, with comical effect, in Stanley Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove.[36]
* Fluoridation was designed by the military–industrial complex to protect the U.S. atomic weapons program from litigation.[38][39]
* Fluoridation was pioneered by a German chemical company to make people submissive to those in power.[39]
* Fluoridation was used in Russian prison camps and produces schizophrenia.[36]
* Fluoridation is backed by the aluminum or phosphate industries as a means of disposing of some of their industrial waste.[39]
* Fluoridation is a smokescreen to cover failure to provide dental care to the poor.[36]

Fluoridation researchers are accused to be in the pay of corporate or political interests as part of the plot.[36] Specific anti-fluoridation arguments change to match the spirit of the time.[40]


Traditional, Natural and Alternative medicines

Many proponents of traditional, natural and alternative medicines claim that pharmaceutical companies and various governments and government agencies conspire to maintain profits by ensuring that the general public uses only modern medicines. For example, many countries have laws that prevent unproven medicinal claims from being printed on packaging, advertisements, etc. for medicines. Any substance for which medicinal claims are made are deemed "drugs". (See Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.) Many of these laws originated in part to due to when snake oil and other such remedies were sold without any government regulation. Proponents of traditional, natural and alternative medicines often claim that since herbs, etc. are of natural origin, they are not drugs and that such laws fallaciously define them as drugs in order to control and ultimately limit or prevent their distribution thus ensuring profits for the pharmaceutical industry.

A variation on this conspiracy is claimed by Kevin Trudeau, author of Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You to Know About. He claims that in the USA, "they" (pharmaceutical companies, the FDA and FTC) conspire to withhold natural cures because "they" can make more profit selling long-term treatments, that do not cure, in perpetuity.

Peak Oil

There are theories that the "Peak Oil" concept is a fraud concocted by the oil industries to increase prices amid concerns about future supplies. The oil industry is aware of vast reserves of untapped oil, according to these theories, but it deliberately refuses to utilize them in order to maintain the illusion of scarcity.

Parallels have been drawn between this and the diamond industry, where it is recognized that a monopoly cabal maintains an illusion of scarcity of diamonds in order to increase their value. Such an idea was featured prominently in the novel Shock Wave by Clive Cussler.

The alleged presence of large quantities of oil has led to increased interest in the Western world in a theory of the origin of oil that was popular in the 1950s and 1960s in the Soviet Union—the Abiogenic petroleum origin theory.


Secret societies

Though the past or present existence of these secret societies is not disputed, a variety of theories regarding hidden plots and/or agendas actively guarded from the general public have been proposed.

* Ashmedai's 2069
* 1001 Club
* Bilderberg Group
* Bohemian Grove[41][42]
* Committee of 300
* Council on Foreign Relations
* Freemasonry (see Masonic conspiracy theories)[43]
* The Illuminati—Thought of as a secret group attempting to control the world.
* Le Cercle
* Majestic 12
* Men In Black
* Nine Unknown Men
* Pilgrims Society
* Royal Institute of International Affairs
* Skull and Bones—This Yale University fraternity is often thought of as being a secret society producing many financial and political leaders who have control or seek to gain control.
* Trilateral Commission


Ethnicity and race
[edit] Armenian International Conspiracy
See also: Anti-Armenianism and Denial of the Armenian Genocide

Samuel A. Weems (December 12, 1936— January 25, 2003) was a writer and a disbarred lawyer in Arkansas, United States, who was paid by the Turkish lobby in the United States, who is in turn sponsored by the Turkish government.[44] In his book, Armenia: The Secrets of a Christian Terrorist State (2002), he argued in favor of the myth that the Armenian Genocide was a gigantic fraud designed to "fleece" Christian nations out of billions of dollars. He also "claimed" that the Armenian Church was a "state owned" entity that organizes and funds terrorist (including ASALA) attacks and that Armenians had "infiltrated" the United States.[45] That book purports that Armenian Diaspora communities in the United States and throughout the world are actually "colonies" political bases intended to gain money and support for Armenian Republic. The books also purport that Armenia is founded on land stolen from Muslims and that Armenians have perpetrated enormous massacres against Turks and Azeris, both recently (in the Nagorno-Karabakh war) and in the past. He has been quoted, lying that "The religion of the Armenians is fake" and that his research shows "that there is clearly an Armenian Master Plan that generates Armenian hate around the world."[46] Prior to his death in 2003, he was preparing to write a second book claiming the international Armenian community collaborated with and supported Nazi Germany. However, this is false, as 25% of the male population of the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic perished while fighting for the Allies in World War II.

The book, along with essays and homemade videos by Weems, have been criticized as racist and Anti-Armenian by the Armenian Assembly of America.[46] The book is available in several online bookstores in United States and Europe. However, there is no need to denounce the book as "racist" when it is clearly pure pabulum. It has also been translated in Turkish and distributed in Turkey.[47] Belief in an "Armenian International Conspiracy", that ethnic Armenians are attempting to change history and hide certain facts for political gain, can also be encountered in Azerbaijan,[48] which has clashed with Armenia over Nagorno Karabakh, a de facto independent republic, officially part of Azerbaijan. Many Azeris believe that the Sumgait pogrom, where ethnic Azeris massacred Armenians during the dissolution of the Soviet Union, was in fact intentionally provoked by Armenians for propaganda purposes. Actual proponents of the "Armenian International Conspiracy" are scarce, and said theories are rarely found outside Turkey and Azerbaijan, countries which have histories of conflict with Armenians. The conspiracy also garners little if any support from scholars, as there exists incontrovertible historical evidence that shows the existence of Ancient Armenia before the arrival of Turks from Central Asia into Anatolia over three thousand thousand years after the origination of the proto-Armenian language in Anatolia and the TransCaucasian Mountains.
[edit] Jewish world domination
See also: Zionist Occupation Government, Andinia Plan, Jewish lobby, Holocaust denial, Blood libel against Jews, Well poisoning, Jewish deicide, Judaeo-Masonic conspiracy theory, and Antisemitic canard

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are an antisemitic literary forgery that purports to describe a Jewish plot to achieve world domination.

* 1905 Stolypin's investigation - A secret investigation ordered by the newly appointed chairman of the Council of Ministers Pyotr Stolypin came to conclusion that the Protocols first appeared in Paris in antisemitic circles around 1897–1898.[49] Even though he himself was anti-Semitic, when Nicholas II learned of the results of this investigation, he requested: "The Protocols should be confiscated, a good cause cannot be defended by dirty means."[50] Despite the order, or because of the "good cause", numerous reprints proliferated.[citation needed]
* 1921 Exposure in The Times - in 1920, the history of the concepts found in the Protocols was traced back to the works of Goedsche and Joly by Lucien Wolf (an English Jewish journalist); was published in London in August 1921; and was similarly exposed in the series of articles in The Times by its Constantinople reporter, Philip Graves, who took his information from Wolf's work.
* 1934-1935 The Berne Trial[51] - In 1934, Dr. Alfred Zander, a Swiss Nazi, published a series of articles accepting the Protocols as fact. He was sued in what has come to be known as the Berne Trial. The trial began in the Cantonal Court of Bern on October 29, 1934. On May 19, 1935, the court, after full investigation, declared the Protocols to be forgeries, plagiarisms, and obscene literature.
* United States Congress, Senate. Committee on the Judiciary. Protocols of the Elders of Zion: a fabricated "historic" document. A report prepared by the Subcommittee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws (Washington, U.S. Govt. Printing Office, 1964).

The text takes the form of an instruction manual to a new member of the "elders", describing how they will run the world through control of the media and finance, and replace the traditional social order with one based on mass manipulation. Scholars generally agree that the Okhrana, the secret police of the Russian Empire, fabricated the text in the late 1890s or early 20th century. Among the most notable early refutations of the Protocols as a forgery was a series of articles printed in The Times of London in 1921. This series revealed that much of the material in the Protocols was plagiarized from earlier political satire that did not have an anti-Semitic theme. Since 1903, when the Protocols appeared in print, its earliest publishers have offered vague and often contradictory testimony detailing how they obtained their copy of the rumored original manuscript.[52]

The text was popularized by those opposed to Russian revolutionary movement and was disseminated further after the revolution of 1905, becoming known worldwide after the 1917 October Revolution. It was widely circulated in the West in 1920 and thereafter. It influenced the publication of Henry Ford's book The International Jew. The Great Depression and the rise of Nazism were important developments in the history of the Protocols, and the hoax continued to be published and circulated despite its debunking, becoming "a lie that would not die." Continued usage of the Protocols as an anti-Semitic propaganda tool substantially diminished with the defeat of the Nazis in World War II. However, it is still believed in by the neo-Nazis. It is still frequently quoted and reprinted, and is sometimes used as evidence of an alleged Jewish cabal, especially in the Middle East.[53]
[edit] Arab-Israeli relations

Daniel Pipes, a former Bush cabinet member, has written a book[54] and many essays in which he asserts that there is a prevalence of conspiracy theories throughout the Arab and Muslim world. Conspiracy theories in the Arab and Muslim worlds, he claims, largely blame Israelis or Jews for many problems facing the world. Some of these include the following:

* Some Arabs, mostly Egyptians, believe that Israelis engineered the crash of EgyptAir Flight 990 in 1999.[55] Others insist that the US is covering up for Boeing, the airplane's manufacturer.[56]

Richard Landes and some other pro-Israel advocates[57] maintain that Muhammad al-Durrah, a 12-year-old Palestinian boy reported to have been killed in the Gaza Strip by Israeli forces in September 2000, was not in fact killed and the entire incident was staged by Palestinian cameramen (see Pallywood for more on this conspiracy theory).
[edit] "Babylon" and racist oppression

Some Rastafarians maintain that a white racist patriarchy ("Babylon") controls the world in order to oppress the African race.[58] They believe that Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia did not die when it was reported in 1975, and that the racist, white media (again, "Babylon") propagated that rumour in order to squash the Rastafari Movement and its message of overthrowing Babylon.[59] Other Rastafarians, however, believe in peace and unity, and interpret Babylon as a metaphor for the established "system" that oppresses (or "downpresses", in Rasta terminology) groups such as Africans and the world's poor.
[edit] Eurabia
Main article: Eurabia

Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci and British-Egyptian writer Bat Ye'or, author of Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis, proposed a conspiracy they said was hatched between a cadre of French elites within the European Economic Community and the Arab League in the mid-1970s to form a strategic alliance against the United States and Israel, and to turn Europe into an appendage of the Islamic world.[60]
[edit] Arab-fascist axis

Radio talk show host David Emory claims that Nazi leader Martin Bormann never died and has built a global empire involving, among many others, the Bush family, Hassan al Banna, Grover Norquist, Meyer Lansky, and Michael Chertoff.
[edit] La Reconquista (Mexico)

In Spanish, La Reconquista means "The Reconquest". It is a popular conspiracy myth that Hispanics, especially Mexicans, are massively immigrating (often through illegal immigration), becoming a new ethnic majority and repopulating the Southwestern United States, because the land being the US states of Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Texas are lost territories after the Mexican-American War of 1848. The myth is thought to come from political and economic interests by both the U.S. and Mexican governments to promote and support the Reconquista for selfish reasons.
[edit] Baha'i
Main article: Allegations of Baha'í involvement with other powers

Iran's Baha'i minority has been the target of persecution since its inception and has been the subject of various conspiracy theories entailing involvement with foreign or hostile powers. In the 19th and 20th century they accused the Baha'is of being agents of the Russian or British imperialism. More recently they have been accused of being allied with Zionism or of being agents of the Shah.
[edit] The Plan
Main article: The Plan (Washington, D.C.)

In U.S. cities that are controlled by African-American majorities, a persistent conspiracy theory holds that Caucasians are plotting to regain control and take over those cities. Cities that are experiencing an urban renaissance, such as Washington, D.C., are particular centers of "The Plan".
[edit] Paranormal activity
[edit] Evil aliens
See also: Alien invasion

A somewhat different version of this theory maintains that humanity is actually under the control of shape-shifting alien reptiles, who require periodic ingestion of human blood to maintain their human appearance. David Icke has been a devoted proponent of this theory.[61] Reportedly the Bush family and the British Royal Family are actually such creatures, and Diana, Princess of Wales was aware of this, presumably relating to her death.[61] David Icke's theory, which encompasses many other conspiracy theories, is that humanity is actually under the reptilians; with evidence ranging from Sumerian tablets describing the "Anunnaki" (which he translates as "those who from heaven to earth came"), to the serpent in the Biblical Garden of Eden, to child abuse and water fluoridation. This theory has been the subject of several books.
[edit] Extraterrestrials
Main article: UFO conspiracy theory

A sector of conspiracy theory with a particularly detailed mythology is the extraterrestrial phenomenon, which has become the basis for numerous pieces of popular entertainment, the Area 51/Grey Aliens conspiracy, and allegations surrounding the Dulce Base. It is alleged that the United States government conspires with extraterrestrials involved in the abduction and manipulation of citizens. A variant tells that particular technologies, notably the transistor — were given to American industry in exchange for alien dominance. The enforcers of the clandestine association of human leaders and aliens are the Men in Black, who silence those who speak out on UFO sightings. This conspiracy theory has been the basis of numerous books, as well as the popular television show The X-Files and the movies Men in Black and Men in Black II. The X-Files based the plots of many of its episodes around urban legends and conspiracy theories, and had a framing plot which postulated a set of interlocking conspiracies controlling all recent human history.

There are claims about secret experiments known as the Montauk Project conducted at Camp Hero, Montauk, New York. Allegedly, the project was developing a powerful psychological war weapon. The project is often connected to other alleged government projects such as the Philadelphia Experiment and Project Rainbow, both of which involved the use of the Unified field theory to cloak vessels. Experiments involving teleportation, time travel, contact with extraterrestrials, and mind control are frequently alleged to have been conducted in the camp. Preston B. Nichols has authored five books on the subject, including Montauk Project: Experiments in time.
[edit] Religion
[edit] Apocalyptic prophecies

Apocalyptic prophecies, particularly Christian apocalyptic and eschatalogical claims about the end times, the Last Judgment, and the end of the world have inspired a range of conspiracy theories. Many of these deal with the Antichrist(Arabic: المسيح الدجّال/ Masih ad-Dajjal). This Antichrist, also known as the Beast 666, is supposed to be a leader who will create a world empire and oppress Christians (and, in some readings, Jews as well). In apocalyptic conspiracy theory, some person from current events is alleged to be the Antichrist, and some supranatural organization is alleged to be the Antichrist's world organization of evil.[62]

Countless historical figures have been called "Antichrist" in their times, from the Roman emperor Nero to Adolf Hitler to Ronald Reagan to Javier Solana. At times, apocalyptic speculation has mixed with anti-Catholicism to yield the interpretation that the reigning Pope is the Biblical Antichrist. A more recent conspiratorial interpretation sees the Antichrist as a world leader involved with the United Nations, who will create a one world government (aka New World Order) and establish a single monetary system. The latter is identified with the Mark of the Beast, which the Bible states that people in the end times will need in order to conduct trade.[62]

Two nations often involved in apocalyptic conspiracy theories are Israel and Iraq. The former is the location of both the Temple Mount and Armageddon (Megiddo), places seen as important in prophecy. The latter is the ancient location of Babylon, which also figures in the Book of Revelation. During the Gulf War, some suggested that Saddam Hussein had ordered the excavation and re-population of the city of Babylon, thus casting Saddam as an Antichrist figure. Other interpretations have held that "Babylon" in the Book of Revelation refers to another mighty nation, such as the Roman Empire, the Vatican (in Rome) and the Catholic Church, or more recently the Soviet Union or the United States of America.
[edit] Bible conspiracy theory

Bible conspiracy theories posit that much of what is known about the Bible, in particular the New Testament, is a deception. These theories variously claim that Jesus really had a wife, Mary Magdalene, and children, that a group such as the Priory of Sion has secret information about the bloodline of Jesus, that Jesus did not die on the cross and that the carbon dating of the Shroud of Turin was part of a conspiracy by the Vatican to suppress this knowledge, that there was a secret movement to mormon that truly belonged in the Bible, or the Christ myth theory, proposed for example in Zeitgeist, the Movie as a means of social control by the Roman Empire. This is portrayed in the book The Da Vinci Code.
[edit] Catholicism a veiled continuation of Babylonian paganism

The Two Babylons was an anti-Catholic religious pamphlet produced initially by the Scottish theologian and Presbyterian Alexander Hislop in 1853 then published as a book in 1919. Its central theme is its allegation that the Catholic Church is a veiled continuation of the pagan religion of Babylon, the veiled paganism being the product of a millennia old conspiracy.[63][64] It has been recognized by scholars as discredited and has been called a "tribute to historical inaccuracy and know-nothing religious bigotry" with "shoddy scholarship, blatant dishonesty" and a "nonsensical thesis".[65][66]

Although scholarship has shown the picture presented by Hislop to be absurd and based on an exceedingly poor understanding of historical Babylon and its religion, his book remains popular among some fundamentalist Christians.[63] Mormons before the reign of Pope John XXIII routinely referred to the Roman Catholic Church as the "Church of the Devil"; after Pope John XXIII, they discontinued support for this conspiracy theory.

The book's thesis has also featured prominently in the conspiracy theories of racist groups such as The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord[67] and other conspiracy theorists.[68]

Although extensively footnoted, giving the impression of reliability, commentators (in particular Ralph Woodrow) have stated that there are numerous misconceptions, fabrications and grave factual errors in the document, and that this book follows the line of thought of works like: Martin Luther - On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church (1520), Titus Oates - An Exact Discovery of the Mystery of Iniquity as it is now in Practice amongst the Jesuits (1679), Conyers Middleton - Letter from Rome (1729).[69]
[edit] Jerusalem Temple Candelabrum in the Vatican cellars

Among some Jewish religious and extreme right groups is circulating the assertion that the Menorah (golden candelabrum) - which was in 70 C.E. pillaged by Titus's soldiers from the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem - still exists and is secretly kept by the Catholic Church in the cellars of the Vatican.

This rumor surfaces again and again. Most recently, during the visit of Pope Benedict XVI to Israel in May 2009, a small group of extreme right militants demonstrated against the Pope with signs reading "Thief, give back our Menorah!". Two followers of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane - Itamar Ben Gvir and Baruch Marzel – at the time actually tried to get a judicial injunction to prevent the Pope from leaving the country "pending the return of the stolen Jewish treasures".[70] The judges refused to grant any such injunction, as the appellants could bring no concrete evidence of the Menorah truly being in the Vatican.

Historians in general assume that the Menorah - like many other treasures stored in Ancient Rome - had been looted by the Vandals during the Sack of Rome in 455 CE. There is no shred of historical evidence of its having ever been in the hands of the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, the above theory persists in certain Jewish circles, as a focus for anti-Catholic (and generally anti-Christian) agitation.
[edit] Miscellaneous
Question book-new.svg
This article needs additional citations for verification.
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (March 2010)

War

* That the Pearl Harbor attack was not a surprise event. US president Franklin D. Roosevelt knew about the risk of a military attack by the Japanese, so he ordered the US Department of State kept it quiet through late 1941 because he knew that the attack would galvanize public opinion in favor of the United States entering World War II. (See Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge debate)
* The 1999 US bombing of the People's Republic of China embassy in Belgrade had been a deliberate retaliation. China was secretly helping Yugoslavia in resisting NATO forces, particularly, by providing advanced radar technology which enabled the Army of Yugoslavia to shoot down an F-117 stealth fighter - the first US stealth aircraft lost in action. An alternative theory states China had bought the remains of that F-117 from Yugoslavia and stored them temporarily inside its embassy's basement. US force discovered this and attempted to destory these remains before they were to be shipped to China. It was stated that one hardened penetrator bomb was amongst the bombs dropped, that bomb reached the basement after penetrating several floors, but failed to explode. Most of the F-117 remains were eventually transported to China, as well as the laser-guided bomb.

Nature

* Several theories are advanced regarding the cause and aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.[71]

* Because of its ineffectiveness, the International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas (ICCAT) is often jokingly referred to as "International Conspiracy to Catch all Tuna".

Advertising

* There is a theory that the famous "computer vs. human" chess game - between Russian grandmaster Garry Kasparov and IBM's Deep Blue computer - involved cheating by IBM, to ensure they would achieve a victory that would be widely publicized. This theory is argued by the documentary Game Over: Kasparov and the Machine.

* Another conspiracy theory related to advertising is that The Coca-Cola Company intentionally changed to an inferior formula with New Coke with the intent of driving up demand for their classic product, later reintroducing it for their financial gain. Alternatively, people believe the switch was made to allow Coca-Cola to reintroduce "classic" Coke with a new formulation using less expensive corn syrup.[72]

Space

* Theorists claim that some or all of the Apollo moon landings were "staged" in a Hollywood movie or other studio either because they never happened or to conceal some aspect of the truth of the circumstances of the actual landing.
* Another theory regarding the moon landings is that the Apollo astronauts found a human skeleton and footprints on the moon.(Even though the fact that there is no way for anything to decompose on the moon because of its lack of atmosphere strictly contradicts this.) The theory received more widespread attention when the Weekly World News twice published stories about a human skeleton on the moon, first on Nov 28, 1989,[73] and then again on Jul 15, 1997.[74]

* Soviet space program conspiracy accusations suppose that some failed human spaceflights in the USSR occurred but were concealed by the government.

* Also some theorists claim that China secretly tried a manned spaceflight in the winter of 1978/1979 but it was a failure.

Communism

* Since the mid-1970s, a variety of conspiracy theories have emerged centering around British Labour Party Prime Minister Harold Wilson. These range from Wilson having been a Soviet agent, to Wilson being the victim of plots by right-wing members of the civil service. Żydokomuna is a theory that Communism in Poland during the Cold War was controlled by Jews. There is a theory that Lech Wałęsa was an informer of the SB, communist secret police in Poland.

Celebrities

* In October 1969, a rumour began circling that Paul McCartney, one of The Beatles, died in a car crash in late 1966 and was replaced by a lookalike. Proponents of the theory, which is commonly referred to as the Paul is dead hoax, cite "clues" in the form of peculiar album covers, possible symbolism in strange lyrics, and backmasking.

* John Lennon also of The Beatles is supposed by some to have been assassinated by the CIA using mind manipulation upon Mark Chapman, because Lennon had too much influence.

* There have been many purported sightings of Elvis Presley over the years since his death in 1977. Several conspiracy theories have developed suggesting that he is still alive.

* Kurt Cobain, singer and guitarist of Nirvana was suggested to not to have committed suicide, but was in fact murdered.

* Some people believe that comedian Andy Kaufman faked his own death. Some believe Tupac Shakur also faked his death. Some claim that Michael Jackson is still alive, having faked his death.

* Some people believe Jimi Hendrix was killed by his manager, who would gain $2,000,000 if Hendrix was to die.

* Some people believe that Bob Marley was assassinated by the CIA. Allegedly someone gave him a pair of boots, and when he put them on a small copper wire inside jabbed him in the toe-the toe that gave him the cancer (acral lentiginous melanoma) that would eventually kill him.

Global Warming

* The Global warming conspiracy theory asserts that the global community of climate scientists have colluded to fabricate a vast body of scientific evidence and literature in order to deceive the world into believing there is a significant anthropogenic component to increases in global temperatures, with the objective of misdirecting research funding, political power, or simply money.

History

* Some New Chronology theories, such as the Phantom time hypothesis of Heribert Illig and the Fomenko-Nosovsky chronology, claim that the conventional dating of historical events is incorrect, and that the historical timeline has been purposely distorted by powerful interests.
* Revisionist history in regards to the Irish Potato Famine was more of a result by the British naval blockade around Ireland when the international community began to send naval ship food shipments and the British reroute those naval ships to England.
* Another revisionist history event was the Trail of Tears, that US president Andrew Jackson made an arrangement with Cherokee chief John Ross to voluntarily relocate the tribe and the forced marches was not out of hatred by the US government.

Sports

* The "Frozen Envelope Theory" suggests that the NBA rigged the 1985 NBA Draft Lottery so Georgetown University standout Patrick Ewing would land with the New York Knicks, who had the first pick in that year's draft. Conspiracy theorists argue that the New York Knicks' envelope was placed in the freezer so that when NBA commissioner David Stern reached into a bowl containing the envelopes of all the teams participating in the draft lottery, he would be able to identify the Knicks’ envelope by its being colder than the others.[75]

* The death of Phar Lap, the champion New Zealand and Australian racehorse, was purported to be a deliberate poisoning. There are also several theories concerning the disappearance of the champion racehorse, Shergar.

Electronic banking conspiracy

* The Theory of Electronic Conspiracy is said to be a variant of modern New World Order conspiracy theories. The theory consists of the belief that a secret group has attempted for centuries to reach world domination, even if the result by design would be world destruction. According to this theory, the worldwide dominion has been planned from antiquity and follows the following phases:[76]

1. The substitution of precious metal-based coin currency by paper currency. This process began in the Renaissance, with the beginning of the use of tickets which allowed for people to have a tangible good (such as silver or gold pieces) by paper—a more virtual, but comfortable, medium which the state was committed to provide the equivalent amount of precious metal if such was required.
2. The appearance of virtual money, with credit cards: money approaches wholly virtual status. Money is no longer a tangible paper- or metal-based object but rather a series of numbers recorded in magnetic stripes.
3. The proliferation of Internet and Electronic commerce: credit cards are no longer required in order to purchase or sell goods and services from an Internet-connected computer.
4. The concentration of the worldwide bank into few hands, by means of continuous international banking fusions.
5. The worldwide implementation of an electronic identity card.
6. The great worldwide blackout. A tremendous disaster will take place when, after a great electrical blackout on a planetary scale, the data of all electronic accounts erase simultaneously. After this event, chaos and poverty will immediately ensue throughout the planet; and civilization will revert to its primitive forms of slavery to survive. This is the last aim of the "secret organization" which has spent centuries guiding this process. The worldwide blackout will be preceded by partial blackouts that would only be tests and "signals" to communicate that different phases of the process are being fulfilled. An example of these partial blackouts would be those that have been produced almost simultaneously in different parts around the world; and, at the beginning of the 21st century, shortly after the September 11, 2001, attacks: the blackouts in the United States, Canada, Australia, and the United Kingdom.


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 9, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
Thanks, Port - a good summary of the various conspiracy "theories". (They are of course not theories in any scientific sense of the word.) One thing it might emphasize is that most of those "theories" have their "intellectual" roots in the so-called Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a vicious anti-Semitic forgery from the late 19th century. Push the crackpots a bit, and you'll often find they're also anti-Jewish; some indeed are sufficiently insane as to allege that Jews are behind most of their fantastic conspiracies.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 9, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
They all seem to have two things in common. They blame the occurrence of negative events on a minority population, and remove personal responsibility (being that a super-powerful group is actually in control of events).

And yes, Jews have traditionally been the group targeted.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
klimmer = nwo

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
Calm down, gc.

You're gonna burst a blood vessel, getting all riled up the way you are. Take a pill and think happy thoughts.

When I'm posting on this thread or klimmer's equally crazy "Massive Ark on the Moon" thread, everyone around me asks why I'm laughing out loud.

These may be the two stupidest threads on Supertopo ever, but they are also the funniest!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 07:47pm PT
Klimmer said,

GC,

If it were up to me I would remove you from ST.

If it were up to you Klimmer, a lot of things would be different. Your mental universe it is a place I wouldn't want to be in. Ever.





graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 07:49pm PT

Chemtrail conspiracy theory

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
"Chemtrails" redirects here. For the Beck song, see Chemtrails (song).
High flying white jet leaving an expanding contrail

The chemtrail conspiracy theory holds that some contrails are actually chemical or biological agents deliberately sprayed at high altitudes for a purpose undisclosed to the general public.[1] Versions of the chemtrail conspiracy theory circulating on the internet and radio talk shows theorize that the activity is directed by government officials.[2] As a result, federal agencies have received thousands of complaints from people who have demanded an explanation.[2][3][4] The existence of chemtrails has been repeatedly denied by government agencies and scientists around the world.[5][6][7]

The United States Air Force has stated that the theory is a hoax which "has been investigated and refuted by many established and accredited universities, scientific organizations, and major media publications".[8] The British Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has stated that chemtrails "are not scientifically recognised phenomena".[6] The Canadian Leader of the Government in the House of Commons has stated that "The term 'chemtrails' is a popularized expression, and there is no scientific evidence to support their existence."[9]

The term chemtrail is derived from "chemical trail" in the similar fashion that contrail is an abbreviation for condensation trail. It does not refer to common forms of aerial spraying such as crop dusting, cloud seeding or aerial firefighting. The term specifically refers to aerial trails allegedly caused by the systematic high-altitude release of chemical substances not found in ordinary contrails, resulting in the appearance of supposedly uncharacteristic sky tracks. Believers of this theory speculate that the purpose of the chemical release may be for global dimming, population control, weather control, or biological warfare/chemical warfare and claim that these trails are causing respiratory illnesses and other health problems.[2][3][10][11]
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Overview
* 2 Contrails vs chemtrails
* 3 Chemtrail references in popular culture
* 4 See also
* 5 References
* 6 Further reading
* 7 External links

[edit] Overview
Contrails over a field

The chemtrail conspiracy theory began to circulate in 1996 when the United States Air Force (USAF) was accused of "spraying the US population with mysterious substances" from aircraft "generating unusual contrail patterns".[8] The Air Force says these accusations were a hoax fueled in part by citations to a strategy paper drafted within the Air Force's Air University entitled Weather as a Force Multiplier: Owning the Weather in 2025.[12][13] The paper was presented in response to a military directive to outline a future strategic weather modification system for the purpose of maintaining the United States' military dominance in the year 2025, and identified as "fictional representations of future situations/scenarios".[13] The Air Force further clarified the paper "does not reflect current military policy, practice, or capability", and that it is "not conducting any weather modification experiments or programs and has no plans to do so in the future."[8][14] Additionally, the Air Force states that the "'Chemtrail' hoax has been investigated and refuted by many established and accredited universities, scientific organizations, and major media publications."[8]
Multiple persistent contrails

In Britain, when the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs was asked "what research her Department has undertaken into the polluting effects of chemtrails for aircraft", the response was that "the Department is not researching into chemtrails from aircraft as they are not scientifically recognised phenomena", but that work was being conducted to understand how contrails may affect weather now and to anticipate future impacts that could result from increases in air traffic.[6][15]

In a response to a petition by concerned Canadian citizens regarding "chemicals used in aerial sprayings are adversely affecting the health of Canadians," the Government House Leader responded by stating that "There is no substantiated evidence, scientific or otherwise, to support the allegation that there is high altitude spraying conducted in Canadian airspace. The term 'chemtrails' is a popularized expression, and there is no scientific evidence to support their existence."[9][16][17][18] The house leader goes on to say that "it is our belief that the petitioners are seeing regular airplane condensation trails, or contrails."[9]
X-Pattern Contrail

Various versions of the chemtrail conspiracy theory have circulated through internet websites and radio programs.[2] In some of the accounts, the chemicals are described as barium and aluminum salts, polymer fibers, thorium, or silicon carbide.[7] In other accounts it is alleged the skies are being seeded with electrical conductive materials as part of a massive electromagnetic superweapons program based around the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP).[19] Those who believe in the conspiracy say the chemtrails are toxic,[20] but the reasons given by those who believe in the conspiracy vary widely, spanning from military weapons testing, chemical population control, to global warming mitigation measures.[3] Scientists and federal agencies have consistently denied that chemtrails exist, insisting the sky tracks are simply persistent contrails.[7] As the chemtrail conspiracy theory spread, federal officials were flooded with angry calls and letters.[7] A multi-agency response to dispel the rumors was published in a 2000 fact sheet by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), a step many chemtrail believers have interpreted as further evidence of the existence of a government cover-up.[7]

Proponents of the chemtrail theory say that chemtrails can be distinguished from contrails by their long duration, asserting that the chemtrails are those skytracks that persist for as much as a half day or transform into cirrus-like clouds.[3] However, some contrails are visible for several hours according to Contrails facts, a USAF publication.[8] Air Force officials say that long lasting contrails result from certain atmospheric conditions, and their duration and rate of dissipation can be accurately predicted when humidity level and temperature are known.[8]
[edit] Contrails vs chemtrails
Condensation trails ("contrails") from propeller-driven aircraft engine exhaust, early 1940s

According to a United States Air Force contrail fact sheet, contrails, or condensation trails, are "streaks of condensed water vapor created in the air by an airplane or rocket at high altitudes."[8] These condensation trails are the result of normal emissions of water vapor from piston engines and jet engines at high altitudes in which the water vapor condenses into a visible cloud. Contrails are formed when hot humid air from the engines mix with, and are cooled by, the colder surrounding air. (The mixing is a result of turbulence generated by the jet engine exhaust). The rate at which contrails dissipate is entirely dependent upon weather conditions and altitude. If the atmosphere is near saturation, the contrail may exist for some time. Conversely, if the atmosphere is dry, the contrail will dissipate quickly.[8]
Exhaust gases and emissions

Chemtrails, coming from "chemical trails" in the same fashion that contrail comes from "condensation trail" is a term coined to suggest that contrails are formed by something other than a natural process of engine exhaust hitting the cold air in the atmosphere. Chemtrail conspiracists characterize these chemical trails as streams that persist for hours, and by their criss-crossing, grid-like patterns, or parallel stripes which eventually blend to form large clouds. Proponents view the presence of visible color spectra in the streams, unusual concentrations of sky tracks in a single area, or lingering tracks left by unmarked or military airplanes flying in atypical altitudes or locations as markers of chemtrails.[2][7][11][21][22][23]
Contrail testing being carried out on an Airbus A340 and much older Boeing 707[8]

Government agencies and experts on atmospheric phenomena deny the existence of chemtrails, asserting that the characteristics attributed to them are simply features of contrails responding differently in diverse conditions in terms of the sunlight, temperature, horizontal and vertical wind shear, and humidity levels present at the aircraft's altitude.[2][7][8][11][21] Experts explain that what appears as patterns such as grids formed by contrails result from increased air traffic traveling through the gridlike United States National Airspace System's north-south and east-west oriented flight lanes, and that it is difficult for observers to judge the differences in altitudes between these contrails from the ground.[8] The jointly published fact sheet produced by NASA, the EPA, the FAA, and NOAA in 2000 in response to alarms over chemtrails details the science of contrail formation, and outlines both the known and potential impacts contrails have on temperature and climate.[24] The USAF produced a fact sheet as well that described these contrail phenomena as observed and analyzed since at least 1953. It also rebutted chemtrail theories more directly by identifying the theories as a hoax and denying the existence of chemtrails.[7][8]
Wingtip condensation trails

Patrick Minnis, an atmospheric scientist with NASA's Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia, is quoted in USA Today as saying that logic is not exactly a real selling point for most chemtrail proponents: "If you try to pin these people down and refute things, it's, 'Well, you're just part of the conspiracy'," he said.[2]

In 2001, United States Congressman Dennis Kucinich introduced legislation that would have permanently prohibited the basing of weapons in space, and he listed chemtrails as one of a number of exotic weapons that would be banned.[25] Proponents have asserted that because explicit reference to chemtrails was entered by Congressman Kucinich into the congressional record, this constitutes official government acknowledgement of their existence.[21][26] That bill received an unfavorable evaluation from the United States Department of Defense and died in committee,[27] with no mention of chemtrails appearing in the text of any of the three subsequent failed attempts by Kucinich to enact a Space Preservation Act.
[edit] Chemtrail references in popular culture
Lists of miscellaneous information should be avoided. Please relocate any relevant information into appropriate sections or articles. (December 2009)

On April 27, 2009, musical recording artist Prince referenced chemtrails in an interview with PBS talk show host Tavis Smiley. In the interview, Prince discusses a comment by comedian and activist Dick Gregory that "really hit home" about what Prince calls "this phenomenon of chemtrails." Prince goes on to mention an increase in aircraft trails that coincided with an inexplicable increase in "fighting and arguing" in his neighborhood.[28][29]

On March 3, 2009, Australian television aired a Canadian film entitled Toxic Skies, directed by Andrew Erin and starring Anne Heche, in which Heche plays a medical doctor who investigates a series of mysterious illnesses. In the context of the film, Heche's character attributes the illness to "chemtrails" -- toxic chemicals introduced into aircraft fuel and dispersed over the population via jet exhaust.[30][31]

American musician Beck released a song entitled "Chemtrails" on his 2008 album, Modern Guilt.

on the sleeve of the rock band Muse's 5th album an image of chemtrails can be seen
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 07:53pm PT

What's Behind Internet Conspiracy Empires?
As Conspiracy Communities Grow, Mental Health Docs Are Left With Big Questions



A man standing on a street corner with a sign reading "the lizard people rule you all," or, "my neighbors are spying on me for the government" isn't likely to get many supporters.

But give that man a Web site template, or let him produce some slick videos on YouTube and, lo and behold, he may have thousands of people across the world supporting him.

Such is the story of several extraordinarily popular conspiracy theorists and theories online today.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/Story?id=6443988&page=1
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
Port,


Please focus just a little.




GC,

Are you sure you don't work for the NSA, CIA, or other? You sure got the memo down on brain-less ridicule. That is the number one line of defense (which is no defense), obfuscate and ridicule with endless ad hominem attacks. But you absolutely do not have one shred of substance beyond that.

You sure seem to have absolute trust in Uncle Sam. So you are fine with the following known US Government atrocities? Yes, these are documented conspiracies and crimes against humanity and our own citizens, accomplished by our government. Where to begin since there are so many? (this is not a complete list by-the-way): I'll even come back and add links . . .



The atrocities we did to the Chinese immigrants on Angel Island
http://www.poeticwaves.net/non-flash-site/
http://www.sandiegochinese.net/htmls/angel.htm

The Prison Camp atrocities against Japanese Americans during WW2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment
http://www.nps.gov/manz/

The atrocities we did to our own Armed Service Vets with the testing of Nuclear Bombs on Nellis AF Base Nevada and other experiments to US soldiers
http://www.naav.com/
Under The Cloud: The Decades of Nuclear Testing [Paperback]
http://www.amazon.com/Under-Cloud-Decades-Nuclear-Testing/dp/1881043053/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266666050&sr=8-2


The atrocities of testing diseases on African American Soldiers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment


The atrocities we did to Pacific Islanders for US Nuclear Testing
Day of Two Suns: U.S. Nuclear Testing and the Pacific Islanders [Paperback]
http://www.amazon.com/Day-Two-Suns-Nuclear-Islanders/dp/0941533832/ref=pd_sim_b_4



The massive atrocity of the The Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the killing of 100s of thousands of innocent Japanese citizens who had nothing to do with the War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
The Last Train from Hiroshima: The Survivors Look Back (John MacRae Books) [Hardcover]
http://www.amazon.com/Last-Train-Hiroshima-Survivors-MacRae/dp/0805087966/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266667483&sr=8-3



False Flag Plan: Operation Northwoods, the plan to kill our own troops and blame it Cuba so we could attack Cuba
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/


Accomplished False Flag: The Gulf of Tonkin, got US into the Vietnam War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident


Accomplished False Flag: the attack on the USS Liberty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident



The CIA project MK-Ultra for mind-control and the development of Manchurian Candidate Assassins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA



The assassination of JFK (lots of overwhelming evidence that rogue elements within our government pulled it off)


The assassination of MLK Jr. (Direct evidence our US government was involved)
An Act of State: The Execution of Martin Luther King [Hardcover]
http://www.amazon.com/Act-State-Execution-Martin-Luther/dp/1859846955/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262053145&sr=1-1
The 13th Juror: The Official Transcript of the Martin Luther King Assassination Conspiracy Trial [Paperback]
http://www.amazon.com/13th-Juror-Transcript-Assassination-Conspiracy/dp/1442112158/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262052503&sr=8-2#noop


What we have done to our Gulf 1, Gulf 2, and Gulf 3 Veterans


9-11-01: plenty of evidence that at the least our government let it happen (LIHOP). Many War Games on 9-11 with that very scenario, Military Stand Down, the evidence can go on and on. But the evidence also shows direct involvement (MIHOP).


2 Illegal Preemptive Wars against countries that had nothing to do with 9-11-01 (Iraq and Afghanistan). The supposed hi-jackers with box-cutter knives were from Saudi Arabia.


What we have done to our Veterans and the people of Iraq and Afghanistan
Beyond Treason:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2205254052040284660#docid=1765761405440797619


The use of Depleted Uranium in weapon systems continues and makes those battle-zone regions of Earth where we leave the DU waste radioactive for the next 4.5 Billion years
http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/mettoc.htm
http://www.cadu.org.uk/intro.htm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5146778547681767408#
http://www.amvets-ca.org/pdfs/RECA/INTERVIEW%20WITH%20MAJOR%20DOUG%20ROKKE.pdf



Torture by the USA at Abu Ghraib


Torture at the USA Prison, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and the murder of Prisoners at Camp “NO”
The Guantánamo “Suicides”: A Camp Delta sergeant blows the whistle
By Scott Horton
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368


Flights of Rendition of Prisoners to countries where torture is allowed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the_United_States



The recent revelation that our government was involved with medical experiments in which we purposefully gave diseases to Guatemalans.
US Apologizes for Giving Guatemalans Syphilis in 1940s Experiment
Friday, October 01, 2010
By Lauran Neergaard, Associated Press
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/76098



This list could go on and on and on . . .



Nope there is no way our government could possibly be involved with spraying Aluminum and Barium Oxides to try to dim the sunlight hitting the Earth's surface in attempt to act against Global Warming. Nope there is no way this could happen. They would never pollute the environment like that and carry out a massive illegal experiment that could have possible devastating effects to the environment and to our health. Nope they could never do that. They could not possibly be that evil. Sarcasm.


Read your history and read the evidence I have already posted. Don't make me have to hold your hand through it all. Do a little homework.


I have this program. Me thinks the government professes too much. I think that is exactly what they are trying to do, dimm the Sun purposefully.

NOVA: Dimming the Sun
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sun/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sun/contrail.html
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
LOL. I don't deny that the U.S. dropped atomic bombs, falsely imprisoned Japanese Americans, mistook the wake of its own ships in the Gulf of Tonkin for Communist torpedoes, etc. etc. Those are all documented facts.

But that's not what you are arguing in this thread and your massive ark on the moon thread! LOL.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
nature

climber
Whereverland....
Oct 9, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
well... I tried.... but Klimmer is worse than Pass the Penis Pete when it comes to paying attention.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 9, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
If it were up to me I would remove you from ST. Too bad Chris Mac doesn't.

Whoever disagrees should be removed? But wait. If it's okay for you to remove someone because they disagree with you, then shouldn't it be okay for them to remove you for disagreeing with them? Or for me to remove both of you for disagreeing with me?

To equate the way GC disagrees with you (by posting silly pictures) with the kind of horribly nasty things that Medusa and Crowley 1.0 said, is seriously uncool. To follow that path is to end up with 7 billion websites, each with a population of 1.

If you don't want people to disagree with you, don't post. Or post trip reports or photos of the outdoors. To post about religion, politics, or conspiracy theories is to ask for rebuttal. Running to Chris Mac when the rebuttal comes and begging him to make those mean people go away is to ask for ridicule.
nature

climber
Whereverland....
Oct 9, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
I disagree, Ghost.


You are gone!
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 9, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
Fully focused and calling you out. Your conspiracies are not original and different versions of them have been around for decades. Whats interesting is that you seem unwilling, or capable, of understanding this.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 9, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 9, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
Did Ghost post something? I don't see his posts.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
Fully focused and calling you out. Your conspiracies are not original and different versions of them have been around for decades. Whats interesting is that you seem unwilling, or capable, of understanding this.

Port,

No you are not focused. You just cut and pasted a huge list of Conspiracies for the purpose of ridicule.

Are you saying conspiracies don't occur? Gee, I guess the FBI, NSA, and CIA and all other law enforcement agencies should just call it a day and go home. There are no conspiracies. No crimes done by those who collude. You might want to call them up and let them know. They are wasting their time and our taxpayer monies.

The above list I posted is beyond dispute. These historical atrocities and events did happen, and our government was directly involved in each one of them.

No, the massive ship on the backside of the Moon was revealed in April of 2007.

SAG = Chem-trails is also a fairly new phenom, since the mid 1990s.


You have called no one out. You're just wrong.




Ghost,



ST posters who personally attack another, and post things that shouldn't be posted like contact information, and where those ST posters work etc. should be removed from ST.

All of that kind of behavior is inappropriate and unethical.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 9, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
All of that kind of behavior is inappropriate and unethical

Well, you know Chris Mac's email address. Send him a message and tell him that you want Granite Climber banned from the forum.

If you're right, if the way s/he's responded to your posts is too horrific to be allowed on Supertopo, then s/he will be gone by tomorrow morning.

On the other hand, if the owner of this site chooses not to ban him/her, then presumably that kind of behavior is acceptable here, and you're going to have to make one of the following choices:

1. Stay here on ST, but stop posting the kind of stuff that generates the responses you don't like. Post about climbing. Or trail running. Or photography. Or mountain biking. Or any one of a thousand topics besides religion, politics, and conspiracy theories.

2. Stay here on ST, and continue to post about religion and conspiracy, but accept the fact that some people will call you a kook (with varying degrees of politeness).

3. Go somewhere else.

But whatever you do, stop whining about how people are mean to you. If you're right, if they're overstepping the (unwritten) bounds of this site, then a simple email to Mr. McNamara will set things right.

So send the email.

(Speaking for myself, I'm more than happy to have you here. If you want to post stuff about aliens, and bible codes, and god and jesus and arks on the moon, that's fine with me. It's not my thing, but so what? All I ask is that if you're going to post material you know is controversial, don't complain about the controversy.)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
Stzzo,


And how about the Aluminum Oxide and Barium powder that they are seeding into the atmosphere? Would that be naturally occurring within contrails of jets also? Could that possibly make chem-trails linger for long periods of time?

They are finding the levels of this way, way beyond natural levels and after SAG events with jets. Read the post I gave you regarding Mt. Shasta. Are you going to dispute these effects and the physical evidence they are finding in the environment after SAG events?

Are you going to dispute the disclosure that has revealed the UK government aerosoled diseases into the atmosphere and subjecting their citizens to this atrocity?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 9, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
^^^^^ What David said.

And if CMac boots me for calling klimmer and the other local conspiracy theorists (global warming, Obama, arks on the Moon, men not on the Moon, writing in the sky, little green men, ad nauseam) names - albeit accurate, factual, names - I'll happily go. Things like "crackpot", "nutcase", "fruitcake" and "whackjob", for example.

Your ranting can be entertaining, but frightening, and there's rarely a shred of truth or scientific proof in it.

Edit: Alternatively, develop a hide like Lois, who must be part rhinoceros.
nature

climber
Whereverland....
Oct 9, 2010 - 10:59pm PT
my sushi is a conspiracy.

you've all been had. and it's full of dihydrogen oxide.


I own you.



Klimmer... the longer you go on missing my direct post to you the more I dislike you.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 9, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
There are a lot of other forums that are more appropriate for this stuff Klimmer. Why persist with stuff the majority here isn't really interested in ?

It's the same formula in all of your threads, same characters responding. Even myself as the resident Bigfoot kook is getting kinda put off by the volume.

Nature had some great advice for you, you should read and heed it.

BTW link and summary is fine, cut and pasting whole articles ? Don't bother folks.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
Nature,


Say it isn't true. You are not going to like me anymore?

To be honest I just had to go back a few pages and see what the heck you are talking about. Sorry I missed it.


So, now I will try to respond.



sincere advise here, Klimmer. Please acknowledge, m'k?

First:
On this forum quit with the phrase "Wake up". Many here are awake. If you believe that then ask yourself again why you get the reaction you do.

Maybe I should say awaken! doesn't sound so harsh. Hey, if that is the worst I do. Guilty.


I appreciate your efforts. I want people to be inquisitive. But HDDJ makes a good point - at what point do YOU draw the line and say, "whoa, stop, that's just nuts!."? If you want us to view your posts with any credibility we need a gage on that.

OK. Thanks I guess. Hey, I do not buy into everything. There will always be a difference though. I watch and I look. I would rather talk about things that matter in the World than the last football game, or more than that killer over-hanging dyno move from one jug to a feldspar crystal. I love climbing and adventure sports. They are for doing and not so much blah, blah, blahing about. TR are great and so are posted videos to watch.



Second:
less pasting of articles and more links. In particular don't cherry pick.

I end up skimming over quotes from articles because I want to read it from the source so I can then judge how much I trust that particular source.

I always post a link. What are you talking about? Yes, sometimes I do post an article because some people are just to lazy to click on anything and a point needs to be made. We all cherry pick. The difference is which are honest and which aren't. MSM will not come near anything contraversial most of the time. They are Corporate owned. They have an agenda. Most of the truly honest breaking news is happening away from traditional MSM news sources now. Independant journalists and blogs are tearing down MSM. That is a good thing. And yes with many sources, sites can be verified. If we had to relie on ABC, NBC, Faux News, CNN, etc. etc. we wouldn't get anywhere news wise today.


Third:
Less volume all the way around. Be more concise. See if you can pull off what couchmaster just asked you to do.

Volume? I do not name call and post endless ad hominem attacks, or silly pictures to ridicule.




Look.... I do think you are a little nutty. maybe you are not at all. but the way you read on this forum suggests nutty. Some of the conspiracy stuff you post I wonder about as well. I'm not sold on the public 911 story at all. I'm certain that one bullet didn't bounce around a car a number of times eventually killing Kennedy with said bullet only to be found later completely in tact. Some of the people that have been in power in our government are very shady people. Money, Power, Greed == not always the nicest people. And our Government has been shown to be a part of conspiracies.

Gee thanks. I'm glad you are honest and that you say you wonder about these things too.

But think about your approach a little bit. I've learned stuff from posts you've started. Most likely what I learned probably wasn't what you were "teaching".

You stir the pot.


That's the point. The pot needs to be stirred if we are going to work our way out of this mess. You got to know about it before you can act. Personally, I like knowing the truth no matter how bad it hurts. I do not want to be caught off guard. I'm a Christian. Jesus told us to be ready. To watch. To prepare. Not to be caught off gaurd.

Hell, you might be surprised how many people on this forum don't completely disregard the possibilities of Chemtrails and gov't envolvement. I don't doubt it but I do find that I often doubt your sources.

Once again. MSM is not going to talk about any of this. Their greatest tool is to ignore and pretend nothing is wrong. The sources I post to go to other sources. Many of these sources are original sources. MSM ignores this news. Too contraversial. So you will only hear about much of this stuff through alternative sources. The best you can do is check it out and cross compare and do the homework.

Real question for you: when was the last magnetic shift of the Earth (compass points south).
I know of two dates. The first is what I, as a scientist, know to be valid. The second is what a different type of individuals has come up with.

Yes, I'm an Earth Scientist. To be honest I do not know the last estimated magnetic reversal for Earth's magnetic field. My guess without looking, although I do recall a NOVA or Discovery DVD on this that I have that I haven't watched in a long while. I'm guessing within the last 100,000 years or less. How about that for a fudge factor?


Now I'm going to go look.


Ok, I missed by a long shot.

Our planet's magnetic field reverses about once every 200,000 years on average. However, the time between reversals is highly variable. The last time Earth's magnetic field flipped was 780,000 years ago, according to the geologic record of Earth's polarity.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0927_040927_field_flip.html

monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 10, 2010 - 12:22am PT
or silly pictures to ridicule

Er,um, how about all those ostrich head in sand pics you post, Klimmer?
nature

climber
Whereverland....
Oct 10, 2010 - 12:38am PT
That you had to look is a good sign.

I guess that means you're not one of the 2012 end of the everything freaks? 768k ypb is the answer that seems most real. the 2012 freaks have it at 36K ypb as proof (exactly zero evidence) the world will end in two years.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2010 - 02:06am PT
Nature,

I'm not a 2012 freak, but I have been called a Jesus freak, although that is very 70s.

This is one thing I'm pretty sure about. 2012 AD will not be the end of the World. Jesus said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matthew 24:36. http://bible.cc/matthew/24-36.htm
There he was speaking about his return only, and not the end of the World. So how can I say that or for that matter any follower of Christ? He has to return before the end of the World. Also when he returns is the beginning of the 1000 years of Peace, The New Millenium. Then the end comes, the last judgement, the final end, and then all things are made new.

Because certain things have to take place before Jesus returns, and before the end of the World. Certain Prophecy must be fulfilled first for that to occur.

Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Someone to refer to that knows Bible prophecy very well, and a man truly close to GOD, and who leads a life by example is Tim McHyde. He knows Last Days Bible Prophecy (Eschatology) very well. Perhaps he is the one out there who is really getting a true sense of the time line and the sequence of key events to take place, and he shares this knowledge gladly.
http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/about.htm

Something might happen in 2012 as a result of man doing it, or something else to bring about fear. But rest assured it will not be the end of the World.

There is a peace and stillness in the heart for all believers regarding the future. Even though I know it will get worse, much worse before it gets better. It will get better one day. Sometimes though, I do wish we could just fast-forward past the bad stuff, and get to the 1000 years of Peace.
Papillon Rendre

climber
Oct 10, 2010 - 05:23am PT
Chemtrails- to each their own.

The thousand years of peace will begin when we humans are not around.

In the process, we will destroy what gives us life; Mother Earth.

Let's focus on what we do everyday, contributing towards its deterioration.

That's my reality.

-PR

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 10, 2010 - 10:21am PT
Granite Climber, did you click any of these links Klimmer gave? I did and it has changed some of my assumptions.

Certainly our history is filled with instances wherein the public has believed one truth, yet years later it is quietly seen as a lie. For instance, "Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead" was the screaming headline that got "tough" Teddy Roosevelt elected. Yet after sending an armed force over to free the man from what all US citizens knew was a barbary pirate of the worse sort (Raisuli), it was quietly decided to just secretly pay the ransom, even though by then it had been learned that Perdicaris was not even a US citizen. That Teddy got Perdicaris alive through tough talk and military action was what was "known" to be the truth by all US citizens.

But it was not true. We paid the ransom.

Klimmer said:

GC,

Are you sure you don't work for the NSA, CIA, or other? You sure got the memo down on brain-less ridicule. That is the number one line of defense (which is no defense), obfuscate and ridicule with endless ad hominem attacks. But you absolutely do not have one shred of substance beyond that.

You sure seem to have absolute trust in Uncle Sam. So you are fine with the following known US Government atrocities? Yes, these are documented conspiracies and crimes against humanity and our own citizens, accomplished by our government. Where to begin since there are so many? (this is not a complete list by-the-way): I'll even come back and add links . . .



The atrocities we did to the Chinese immigrants on Angel Island
http://www.poeticwaves.net/non-flash-site/
http://www.sandiegochinese.net/htmls/angel.htm

The Prison Camp atrocities against Japanese Americans during WW2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment
http://www.nps.gov/manz/

The atrocities we did to our own Armed Service Vets with the testing of Nuclear Bombs on Nellis AF Base Nevada and other experiments to US soldiers
http://www.naav.com/
Under The Cloud: The Decades of Nuclear Testing [Paperback]
http://www.amazon.com/Under-Cloud-Decades-Nuclear-Testing/dp/1881043053/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266666050&sr=8-2


The atrocities of testing diseases on African American Soldiers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment


The atrocities we did to Pacific Islanders for US Nuclear Testing
Day of Two Suns: U.S. Nuclear Testing and the Pacific Islanders [Paperback]
http://www.amazon.com/Day-Two-Suns-Nuclear-Islanders/dp/0941533832/ref=pd_sim_b_4



The massive atrocity of the The Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the killing of 100s of thousands of innocent Japanese citizens who had nothing to do with the War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
The Last Train from Hiroshima: The Survivors Look Back (John MacRae Books) [Hardcover]
http://www.amazon.com/Last-Train-Hiroshima-Survivors-MacRae/dp/0805087966/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266667483&sr=8-3



False Flag Plan: Operation Northwoods, the plan to kill our own troops and blame it Cuba so we could attack Cuba
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/


Accomplished False Flag: The Gulf of Tonkin, got US into the Vietnam War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident


Accomplished False Flag: the attack on the USS Liberty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident



The CIA project MK-Ultra for mind-control and the development of Manchurian Candidate Assassins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA



The assassination of JFK (lots of overwhelming evidence that rogue elements within our government pulled it off)


The assassination of MLK Jr. (Direct evidence our US government was involved)
An Act of State: The Execution of Martin Luther King [Hardcover]
http://www.amazon.com/Act-State-Execution-Martin-Luther/dp/1859846955/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262053145&sr=1-1
The 13th Juror: The Official Transcript of the Martin Luther King Assassination Conspiracy Trial [Paperback]
http://www.amazon.com/13th-Juror-Transcript-Assassination-Conspiracy/dp/1442112158/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262052503&sr=8-2#noop


What we have done to our Gulf 1, Gulf 2, and Gulf 3 Veterans


9-11-01: plenty of evidence that at the least our government let it happen (LIHOP). Many War Games on 9-11 with that very scenario, Military Stand Down, the evidence can go on and on. But the evidence also shows direct involvement (MIHOP).


2 Illegal Preemptive Wars against countries that had nothing to do with 9-11-01 (Iraq and Afghanistan). The supposed hi-jackers with box-cutter knives were from Saudi Arabia.


What we have done to our Veterans and the people of Iraq and Afghanistan
Beyond Treason:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2205254052040284660#docid=1765761405440797619


The use of Depleted Uranium in weapon systems continues and makes those battle-zone regions of Earth where we leave the DU waste radioactive for the next 4.5 Billion years
http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/mettoc.htm
http://www.cadu.org.uk/intro.htm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5146778547681767408#
http://www.amvets-ca.org/pdfs/RECA/INTERVIEW%20WITH%20MAJOR%20DOUG%20ROKKE.pdf



Torture by the USA at Abu Ghraib


Torture at the USA Prison, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and the murder of Prisoners at Camp “NO”
The Guantánamo “Suicides”: A Camp Delta sergeant blows the whistle
By Scott Horton
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368


Flights of Rendition of Prisoners to countries where torture is allowed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the_United_States



The recent revelation that our government was involved with medical experiments in which we purposefully gave diseases to Guatemalans.
US Apologizes for Giving Guatemalans Syphilis in 1940s Experiment
Friday, October 01, 2010
By Lauran Neergaard, Associated Press
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/76098



This list could go on and on and on . . .



Nope there is no way our government could possibly be involved with spraying Aluminum and Barium Oxides to try to dim the sunlight hitting the Earth's surface in attempt to act against Global Warming. Nope there is no way this could happen. They would never pollute the environment like that and carry out a massive illegal experiment that could have possible devastating effects to the environment and to our health. Nope they could never do that. They could not possibly be that evil. Sarcasm.


Read your history and read the evidence I have already posted. Don't make me have to hold your hand through it all. Do a little homework.


I have this program. Me thinks the government professes too much. I think that is exactly what they are trying to do, dimm the Sun purposefully.

NOVA: Dimming the Sun
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sun/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sun/contrail.html
[/quote]
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Oct 10, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
As a fun little game, google up "logic fallacies" and see if you can identify how many (perhaps all) are on display on this thread. I think this is what riles up the scientists here. People are free to hold whatever not-based-in-facts opinions they want. It is when they try to bolster their claims with misuse of science or, more commonly, flawed chains of logic (e.g. "the government had an evil secret program in the past, therefore my allegation of an evil secret program today must be true") that we object. By the way I'm certain that our government has a bunch of secret programs underway right now that we will be outraged about in 20 years when we finally hear about them.

Me thinks the government professes too much.


It is hard not to laugh out loud at this stuff! The expression is "...PROTESTS too much." It really undermines the case attempting to be made to get so many simple things wrong (usual it is high-school-level physics that gets sadly abused).

[EDIT: In response to the comments in a later post. I thought this quote was supposed to be a take off on the famous quote from Hamlet. Turns out "profess" was the intended word (although I'd argue it is the wrong one for the newly-revealed intent). So, my bad! I retract that criticism. In the response below my reference to high school physics was completely misinterpreted. Of course clearly nothing I said was understood at all as near as I can tell which makes my point perfectly. I think that high school physics is about as good as science gets. You can explain so many every day experiences in the physical world with just a few equations. Truly elegant. My comment here is that in these threads (you know which ones I mean) simple physics concepts are often misused completely as part of the discussions. This is a sad reflection on the state of basic education in the US.]

That statement also makes it clear that no discussion is possible. You find in equal measure on these threads "I think they are protesting too much, we must be getting close to the truth" and "why are they silent on these allegations?--must be a coverup". There is no response to any allegation that will not be used as further evidence for the allegation.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 10, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
OUT OF THE BLUE

A contrail will form behind a jet if, as exhaust gases cool and mix with surrounding air, the humidity is high enough and the temperature low enough for liquid water to condense. The air needs to be supersaturated and the temperature generally below -40°F, something that typically occurs only in the upper troposphere, the atmospheric layer several miles up where airliners cruise. Under those conditions, water vapor from the jet's exhaust and secondarily from the atmosphere condenses into water droplets. Within a few tens of feet behind the aircraft, these droplets freeze into the snow-white particles that bring the contrail to life.

How long a newly formed condensation trail sticks around depends on the ambient humidity. If humidity is low, contrails will rapidly dissipate, looking like a comet's tail. The ice particles sublimate—meaning go straight from ice to vapor—and you're back to blue sky. If humidity is high, however, contrails can persist—and those are the ones that trouble climatologists.

A LINGERING CONCERN

If conditions are right, newly formed contrails will begin feeding off surrounding water vapor. Like vaporous cancers, they start growing and spreading. In time, they can expand horizontally to such an extent that they become indistinguishable from cirrus clouds, those thin, diaphanous sheets often seen way up high. These artificial cirrus clouds can last for many hours, and the amount of sky they end up covering can be astonishing: one study showed that contrails from just six aircraft expanded to shroud some 7,700 square miles.

this sounds like disinformation, tricked out in a little environmental "concern".

you have to be either an oldtimer or a physical meteorologist to weigh in here.

i'm an oldtimer. these damn chemtrails haven't been around more than 15 years or so. if you grew up during that time, you probably accept a chemtrail-filled sky as a given, a natural, the result of natural conditions along with our increased jet traffic.

but i grew up with different skies and learned to notice the sky ever since. anyone else? my dad took me fishing in the 1950s and i'd spend the whole day in a boat, waiting for the fish to bite. you get plenty of time for sky-watching in the lousy fishing lakes of illinois. something as obvious as a contrail stood out. when one came by, i'd sit there staring, fascinated, until the plane disappeared. chemtrails never happened. if that crap posted up there were true, i'd have noticed chemtrails all through the 50s, 60s and 70s. i learned all the species of clouds, and the midwest had plenty of them. everything was painted on nature's pallette, natural and beautiful. i went from fishing to sailing to canoeing, to skiing to hiking to climbing. chemtrails, the last 15 years. we've had plenty of jet traffic all along. never saw a chemtrail in the days of the 707s, or even after 747s were introduced.

i'm not a physical meteorologist, but i'd like one to expain to me why i shouldn't think that statement is complete bullsh#t. the science of clouds involves dew point. clouds don't "propagate" like that. don't give me supersaturated and supercooled. explain why. i'll give you my explanation as i understand it. when a jet passes through a blue sky, the punch of the exhaust disturbs the air. even though there is tremendous thrust, there is consequently a partial vacuum immediately behind it. that's what causes the condensation, the drop in pressure. the cloud forms and then dissipates a short while later when it returns to the blue-sky, above dewpoint conditions.

even in high humidity, clouds need to have dewpoint manipulated in order to form, usually by updrafts or other massive movements of air. they don't "propagate". that smells like the purest heap of poo-poo.

the disinformation world is such that you get played with no matter what you believe. you learn not to trust even the "proofs" of what you happen to believe in, like svali's lurid revelations about the illuminati.

we've had supposed "secret" pictures circulated on the internet of interiors of chemtrail planes filled with bottles of chemicals and plumbing for spraying. there was an unattributed report about an airport employee who lost his job for questioning the inclusion of secret chemtrail apparatus on commercial flights.

why doesn't it all leak out? because news itself is controlled. i can tell you about that. reporters who start snooping around in unassigned areas 1) get called on the carpet and 2) lose their jobs if they continue. perhaps the biggest proof that there really is something to this chemtrail stuff is that no credible reporter has dug into it, interviewing experts, coming up with something authoritative. when you want to cover something up, you never allow it to get that far. you'll wind up with a real expert making a lot of noise you don't want to hear.

chemtrails do get treated occasionally in the media. there was a report on a regular los angeles television channel, interviewing residents of the big bear lake area who complained about irritation from chemtrails. but never a followup beyond that. the subject has been all over italian television. they call them "sci" (pronounced "she", as for a ski track). italians are used to not being able to do anything about what the powers-that-be dictate. they accept all scandals as open secrets and enjoy good food as long as they can.

what are the chemtrails for? the haarp program is often mentioned. i had an aerospace scientist who purports to be in the know tell me that the barium and aluminum compounds slightly increase the conductivity of the atmosphere for all the haarp devilment that goes on. check out the government haarp page if you don't know about this program for the official story as to what they're up to. for the unofficial story, let your imagination run wild.

other suggestions include weather control--that's one you ought to look into if you like the subject of hidden technologies--and even darker motives such as crop reduction for subsequent population reduction. i don't know why klim even worries, 'cause "he's got the whole world in his hands." enjoy the good food, lad.

i wonder when the sierra club will start developing one of its enviro-ulcers over haarp. when hell clouds over with supercooled supersaturation. could be right around the corner.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
It really undermines the case attempting to be made to get so many simple things wrong (usual it is high-school-level physics that gets sadly abused).

Don't be surprised at how many people graduate from high school not understanding basic science. Klimmer works as a science teacher in a public high school teaching Earth Science and Physics.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0mQeLWCCo
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 10, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
As a fun little game, google up "logic fallacies" and see if you can identify how many (perhaps all) are on display on this thread. I think this is what riles up the scientists here. People are free to hold whatever not-based-in-facts opinions they want. It is when they try to bolster their claims with misuse of science or, more commonly, flawed chains of logic (e.g. "the government had an evil secret program in the past, therefore my allegation of an evil secret program today must be true") that we object. By the way I'm certain that our government has a bunch of secret programs underway right now that we will be outraged about in 20 years when we finally hear about them.


Exactly! I've told Klimmer this many many times on many different threads and his response is for me to focus on the facts....its not the facts i take issue with, its the logic.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttz5oPpF1Js
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2010 - 02:13pm PT
As a fun little game, google up "logic fallacies" and see if you can identify how many (perhaps all) are on display on this thread. I think this is what riles up the scientists here. People are free to hold whatever not-based-in-facts opinions they want. It is when they try to bolster their claims with misuse of science or, more commonly, flawed chains of logic (e.g. "the government had an evil secret program in the past, therefore my allegation of an evil secret program today must be true") that we object. By the way I'm certain that our government has a bunch of secret programs underway right now that we will be outraged about in 20 years when we finally hear about them.

Mike,

Dr. Bolte, why do you "kick against the pricks?" (By-the-way, that would Jesus saying to Saul in the Bible, referring to his rebelling and protesting against the truth).

Then you go on to admit, "By the way I'm certain that our government has a bunch of secret programs underway right now that we will be outraged about in 20 years when we finally hear about them."

That is pretty contradicting. What am I not getting?



Me thinks the government professes too much.

No, that is exactly what I meant. I was saying it in regards to the NOVA program on The Dimming of the Sun. The government professes (talks about, admits) too much in the DVD. They pretty much give it away. The answer is right there starring us in the face. They are using Aluminum Oxide and Barium dust to dim the Sun. Scientific organizations are having Conferences talking about doing just exactly that. It happened at the AAAS meeting here in San Diego. Apparently a group that knew this was happening also protested the meeting. Watch the trailer for the new DVD that is coming out that I first posted.


That statement also makes it clear that no discussion is possible. You find in equal measure on these threads "I think they are protesting too much, we must be getting close to the truth" and "why are they silent on these allegations?--must be a coverup".



Huh?


No, here I was not saying they are protesting too much. You said that. I said "professing" too much.

In this situation, the government is very quiet about it, and ignoring it, as well as MSM. People are coming up with the evidence, and they are getting the silent treatment. Read the story regarding the Soil Scientist who worked for the US Forest Service, or the Soil Survey. See the kind of reaction he got.



It is hard not to laugh out loud at this stuff! The expression is "...PROTESTS too much." It really undermines the case attempting to be made to get so many simple things wrong (usual it is high-school-level physics that gets sadly abused).



Oh, yea, nice dig at HS physics. Come on.




One place that you are correct:

"Me thinks the US Government does protest too much" is in regards to the recent publication of the Book on Terrorism, where they call out all groups who are using their 1st Amendment rights and asking questions and grieving our Government. By that definition we are all terrorists. What a load of 100% USDA Bovine Dung.

They put all those groups, sayings, phrases, words, definitions in a Book and called it "Terrorism and Criminal Extremism." Yep, me thinks the US Government does protest too much in that regard. Way too much . . .

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1282804&msg=1282804#msg1282804


DoJ Terrorism and Criminal Extremism Terms and Concepts Guide
http://publicintelligence.net/doj-terrorism-and-criminal-extremism-terms-and-concepts-guide/


Here is the actual DoJ download of the Book:

Investigating Terrorism and Criminal Extremism, Terms and Concepts
http://info.publicintelligence.net/DoJTerrorismCriminalExtremismTerms.pdf




Oh, guess what is listed in the book -- Chemtrails!


You can not make this stuff up. People who talk about chemtrails are terrorists! I would cry if it were not so dang funny at face value.


So, that I do not raise any flags at DoJ (too late I probably have raised all of them by now), I will call them "SAG trails." But I'm sure in the next edition they'll list that too.

Dang, you just can't win.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:00pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:04pm PT



Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
GC's last photo is cymbalic of something or other.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2010 - 03:12pm PT
GC,

Since some people don't want me to say Wake Up!

I might have to steal that last cute image from you.

Thanks for posting that. lol.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
You're welcome, Klimmer!


Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
You can not make this stuff up.

Acutally, you can. You're doing it right now.

so, that I do not raise any flags at DoJ (too late I probably have raised all of them by now), I will call them "SAG trails." But I'm sure in the next edition they'll list that too.

This is a classic delusion of grandeur. No one at DOJ gives a sh#t about what you post of Supertopo. You're a HIGH SCHOOL science teacher. Get over yourself.

That is pretty contradicting. What am I not getting?

Once again, you've completely misunderstood the argument Mike's making. You have a talent for making high level connections between events but have extreme difficulty with formal logic.

What your're missing is that there is DIRECT EVIDENCE, detailed WITNESSES TESTATMONY, and CONFESSION of the said events. You've provided, maybe, one of the above. And what you have provided is EXTREMELY questionable. Your sources are very very poor....i.e. a 4th grade science project!!!!! Its in your video. Don't deny it.

Could you be right about Chemtrails? YES! I'll be the first to say it. But you rely on weak data and giant leaps in logic to arrive at your conclusions. Take a break from science and go take a philosophy of logic course. It'll open your eyes.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
It's funny how no one will just go outside with a camera and look up. Even Kilmmer cant be bothered.

Here are some photos from the north Cascades, eastern Washington & Seattle. If you just go out before the front moves in you can watch the planes doing the arasol spraying. Cloud seeding Also sun shading. All the rest is crazy talk. Remember that what you dont read or hear about is most often what is really going on. My theory is that it has to do with Monsanto. You never hear of CTs and the evil one in the same sentence.






graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:35pm PT









graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:37pm PT


graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
Cragman,


Nope, I didn't say so. Others did. Others discovered this not me. But I am glad they told us. I'm glad they told me. I'm just sharing the info.

See the first post.



Port,


Yes, they use one school girl among many other examples of people finding the evidence. That would be to show you how easy it is to do, to collect the evidence.

Talk about cherry picking. Why do you ignore the scientists who are collecting the data and evidence and presenting it?

How about the veteran USFS Soil scientist and all of his work surrounding Mt. Shasta?

Do any of you have a shred of concern? How long will your games of obfuscation, ridicule, and ad hominem attacks continue?

You are not arguing with me. I'm just the messenger relaying the info. I happen to agree with their conclusions. See the first post.

I'm looking forward to purchasing the DVD when it comes out.


And Port, I have no illusions of grandeur. In thoughtful jest I'm also just pointing out how flawed the DoJ's reasoning is. But they certainly make lists. Read all about COININTELPRO. The FBI even raids innocent War protesters homes and hauls these GOOD American citizens off to jail for expressing their first amendment rights. Gonna deny that too? Read the news.

So, when do you start protesting? When they come for you?






Edit:

Let's talk about how this directly effects climbers and skiers on Mt. Shasta. Perhaps it is just the Canary in the Coal mine?

By-the-way, when I climbed Mt. Shasta and BC skied down the mountain with a good friend, we didn't have to worry about this SAG program. This was before the program was apparently occuring.

Now the levels of Aluminum and Barium Oxides in the snow and in the freshwater supplies throughout the region and on the mountain are very, very high, beyond safe levels for drinking or ingesting aluminum.

So what are you going to do now? Carry your climbing pack full of potable water up the mountain?

Like I said, you might want to pay attention and get over your childish attacks.



Awaken!




(Hope that use of Awaken didn't offend anyone. Geeeeeeeees)
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:51pm PT

Classic!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 10, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

Klimmer logic
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
I'll make this point again, since some of you are reading comprehension challenged:


Let's talk about how this directly effects climbers and skiers on Mt. Shasta. What are the effects? Perhaps it is just the Canary in the Coal mine?

By-the-way, when I climbed Mt. Shasta and BC skied down the mountain with a good friend, we didn't have to worry about this SAG program. This was before the program was apparently occuring.

Now the levels of Aluminum and Barium Oxides in the snow and in the freshwater supplies throughout the region and on the mountain are very, very high, beyond safe levels for drinking or ingesting aluminum.

So what are you going to do now? Carry your climbing pack full of potable water up the mountain?

Like I said, you might want to pay attention and get over your childish attacks.



Awaken!




(once again I hope I didn't offend you with that last word)





http://www.prisonplanet.com/what-in-the-world-are-they-spraying-part-ii.html


Yes, that would imply that you would have to really read the article to participate and to answer the question.

You guys can read can't you?

(And if you can, than thank a teacher :-))
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 10, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
Dean is definitely on a roll today.

Anyway, after the Supreme Court decision last spring that corporations have unlimited rights to buy the media, is it any wonder that there'd be a proliferation of skywriting? Maybe some of them need to work on their spelling, but it's all advertising. That's the real poison that's being conveyed - not fantasy chemicals.

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 10, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
You're always telling people what to read, so here's something YOU should read.

Voodoo Science

Scientific error, says Robert Park, "has a way of evolving ... from self-delusion to fraud. I use the term voodoo science to cover them all: pathological science, junk science, pseudoscience, and fraudulent science." In pathological science, scientists fool themselves. Junk science refers to scientists who use their expertise to befuddle and mislead others (usually juries or lawmakers). Pseudoscience has the trappings of science without any evidence. Fraudulent science is, well, fraud--old-fashioned lying.

Park is well-acquainted with voodoo science in all its forms. Since 1982, he has headed the Washington, D.C., office of the American Physical Society, and he has carried the flag for scientific rationality through cold fusion, homeopathy, "Star Wars," quantum healing, and sundry attempts to repeal the laws of thermodynamics. Park shows why a "disproportionate share of the science seen by the public is flawed" (because shaky science is more likely to skip past peer review and head straight for the media), and he gives a good tour of recent highlights in Voodoo. He has a rare ability to poke holes compassionately, without excoriating those taken in by their fondest wishes. Park is less forgiving of scientists (especially Edward Teller) when he thinks they've fallen down on the job, a job that should include helping the public separate the scientific wheat from the voodoo chaff



http://www.amazon.com/Voodoo-Science-Road-Foolishness-Fraud/dp/0195135156


pathological science, wherein genuine scientists deceive themselves

junk science, speculative theorizing which bamboozles rather than enlightens

pseudoscience proper, work falsely claiming to have a scientific basis, which may be dependent on supernatural explanations

fraudulent science, exploiting bad science for the purposes of fraud
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 10, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
As today is 10/10/10, in both the international and the US denotation, I was just wondering if that had any special significance to our alien friends? Shouldn't they be writing us a message in the sky today, or something of the sort? It can't just be coincidence that we're talking about them on a day of such obviously cosmic portent.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 10, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
10 10 10 in binary is 42, the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything.

http://gizmodo.com/5659984/today-is-the-ultimate-answer-to-the-ultimate-question-of-life-the-universe-and-everything
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 10, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
Klimmer, Klimmer, Klimmer,

You have a lot of theories excuse me conspiracies’: The ark, 9/11, solving energy problems and now this new one just to name a few.

Sorry to say but your extremism is going to get you into problems. Your thoughts are no different than the people we are trying to destroy: radical Islamic extremists, yours is in your faith and ideas: no difference.

Turn on any Christian station and they breed the same thoughts. Antigovernment, hate, kill or actually beat up gays, bomb the abortion clinics, kill the doctors who perform them [took a long time, 20 years for the FBI to finally accept that they should be included on the terrorist list, they used to look the other way back in the 80’s], add all conspiracies and “Yes! The world coming to an end, so get ready”. Oh! By the way send in some money to PO Box XXXXX.

Maybe if I get the time will tell you about the story about Billy Graham and his love of Muslims: true story but off the subject.

You talk about doing your homework: I will send software program link [free] that would help you come to conclusions. Problem you are set in your mind and not open to other thinking. Would help you see an issue from alternative perspectives, prods you to look for additional evidence you had not realized was relevant, helps you identify and question assumptions, and generally stimulates new ideas about the issue at hand.

I have look at or gone to your links and laugh. Half to three quarters of your sources are questionable. Just because someone has a PHD or Doctor to his title does not make him credible. There are hundreds to thousands that have no clue to what they are discussing and they got a degree for it.

I am sure since your belief is that the bible [which one?] is the true word of god and being that it is the word of god everything is correct, written correctly and is the truth. What happens if one word or one sentence in it is incorrect does this make the bible incorrect; then the argument would be everything in the Bible is wrong? So now there is no truth. I'm sure you hear and agree or argue this often with your non-believers.

I wonder why when you type the word god it does not automatically put the cap in [G] and go to God… You type in bible and it also does not type in with a cap, what about muslim or jewish it’s the same but you type in Christian and it does it for you. Hmmmmm, must be a conspiracy.

Conspiracies work the same way but not necessarily. Good example is on 9/11. If you believe the conspiracy then you have to believe everything and everyone who has contributed to its conclusion including Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who recently on his last visit to the UN said that the US was involved in bringing down the towers. He is an expert right.

So let's see their must be about a least two/three dozen different theories/conspiracies involved with 9/11. So just like your Bible all the conspiracies with 9/11 have to be true. So now we have the truth or do we.

Anyway if you are interested I will pass it on. It will take some time, reading the tutorial is mandatory but if have the patience might help.

If not, other suggestion is to become a Tea Party candidate; you would fit in real good.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
I'll make this point again, again since some of you are reading comprehension challenged:


Let's talk about how this directly effects climbers and skiers on Mt. Shasta. What are the effects? Perhaps it is just the Canary in the Coal mine?

By-the-way, when I climbed Mt. Shasta and BC skied down the mountain with a good friend, we didn't have to worry about this SAG program. This was before the program was apparently occuring.

Now the levels of Aluminum and Barium Oxides in the snow and in the freshwater supplies throughout the region and on the mountain are very, very high, beyond safe levels for drinking or ingesting aluminum.

So what are you going to do now? Carry your climbing pack full of potable water up the mountain?

Like I said, you might want to pay attention and get over your childish attacks.



Awaken!




(once again I hope I didn't offend you with that last word)





http://www.prisonplanet.com/what-in-the-world-are-they-spraying-part-ii.html


Yes, that would imply that you would have to really read the article to participate and to answer the question.

You guys can read can't you?

(And if you can, than thank a teacher :-))

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
Wake up, Klimmer!

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 10, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
Now the levels of Aluminum and Barium Oxides in the snow and in the freshwater supplies throughout the region and on the mountain [Mt. Shasta] are very, very high, beyond safe levels for drinking or ingesting aluminum.
Source, please. The Mt. Shasta area is the source of drinking and irrigation water for much of northern California, and undoubtedly is regularly and scientifically tested. Please cite a reputable scientific source for your claim.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 10, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
Fear:

F-False
E-Evidence
A-Appearing
R-Real

You know I never thought of it in that way but yeah NOW I know its Disney doing the CTs.

Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Oct 10, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
I don't know about chemtrails but I just clicked on the link to wikipedia about chemtrails and it pointed to one source, FAS.ORG which is the Federation of Associated Scientists. This link is a research paper presented to the US Airforce by scientists and officers about controlling the weather by 2025 for military dominance. Declassified and cleared for public release.

http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/usaf/2025/v3c15/v3c15-1.htm

So in 14 years they've come a long way on weather "modification" experiments.

I sure hope they can make it sunny and 75 every day in the valley and tons of fresh powder every day at Kirkwood ski resort.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 10, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
Mighty Hiker, see my post here about Mt Shasta contamination:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1285650&msg=1285653#msg1285653

I had no idea Klimmer was into chemtrails when I posted. Hilarious!

Klimmer appears to be highly suggestible, which goes hand in hand with gullibility.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 10, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
So it's all based on a guest opinion written by five citizens in a local newspaper, the Mount Shasta News, in turn based on a few dozen water samples taken by non-scientists? Non-scientists who appear to have been those who claimed that metal levels in the water were high? Boy, that sure seems reliable!

http://www.mtshastanews.com/opinions/x1950206316/Citizens-seeking-answers-to-aluminum-contamination-concerns

Sorry, but local, state and possibly federal agencies have regular scientific sampling and analysis programs for public water sources, likely with records going back years. What do those records say? Probably even somewhere on the inturdnet.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 10, 2010 - 08:36pm PT


???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsZeNZSZq0Y&feature=player_embedded

(She has been my friend since junior high school, and is extremely particular about verifiable evidence...)
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 10, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
Tom, saw Linda speak in vancouver a few years ago and have closely followed her @ earthfiles.com ever since

no disinformation originates from Linda Moulton Howe
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Oct 10, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
Klimmer = Nut pedaling psuedoscience

Ed Teller = Rat bastard pedalling psuedoscience

Watch out Klimmer, it's a slippery slope you are on. You sound ready to go over the edge. Remember, it's reality you are slipping away from.

Don't do it!!!!111!!!

TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 10, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
I have been the project manager for dozens of US EPA projects for managing emergency responses and remediation at contaminated sites; including a national review of the document management systems for managing Superfund sites (CERCLA) at all ten US EPA regional offices. In the process I visited all ten regional offices at least twice.

Then I worked for several years in Alexandria VA in the US EPA Sample Management Office (SMO) as an employee of the prime contractor, Viar Inc.

I have some level of expertise in the National Hazard Ranking System (HRS). The basic idea is that there is a source of contamination at legally reportable levels, that has a pathway (either direct contact, or air, surface or subsurface water flow, or soil transport) that goes to a target (human environment or food supply or sensitive natural environments). Once a site scores on the HRS, it becomes part of the National Priority List (NPL)and the US EPA is responsible for managing response and remediation and cost recovery from principle responsible parties (PRPs)

At times my office was stacked from floor to ceiling with water quality sample management reports that I turned into 3D scientific visualizations for many contaminated Superfund sites; using a Silicon Graphics workstation running Dynamic Graphics software.

One of the first sites modeled this way was Yucca Mtn, NV. I am very aware of very high levels of contaminated substances across broad areas of the western (and other) states. However I have signed non-disclosure documents to not reveal specifics, as many of these cases are the subject of intense litigation against the principle responsible parties (PRPs).

Sample management and chain-of-custody management is a very rigorous process that has however been violated by some of the top labs, subjecting them to federal enforcement actions. They were caught by double-blind test submissions.

There is nothing wrong with private individuals submitting test materials to reputable labs; so long as they maintain clean sample management and chain-of-custody protocols.

It shouldn't come as a big surprise to anyone that there are high levels of contamination in our soil, air, water, and food supplies. There is abundant peer-reviewed literature on the subject. Anyone who questions this just hasn't been paying attention. So go do your homework. Pin pointing sources is another matter entirely. Many or most are non-point sources.

After some years working for EPA SMO, I was co-lead of a project to review US DOE sample management issues and visited many of the national labs. As I learned more about DOE issues, I became much less worried about EPA's challenges. Then I was assigned as systems integration manager applying scientific visualization techniques for a major DOE/DoD/EPA project (SERDP) to reduce end-of-pipe and spurious emissions from the weapons manufacturing programs.

Then I worked for US Fish and Wildlife Service and realized that many heavily contaminated sites were being designated as National Wildlife Refuges so that the maximally effected individuals would only visit and not live on site. I was responsible for computer mapping (GIS) large areas of the western states for natural habitat management purposes.

Then I moved over to working on NASA human space flight systems with the idea that we'd best figure out how to make a life support system work somewhere else, because we've sure messed up this planet!

You folks are lucky to have someone doing your homework for you; and you really should mind your manners better. It's interesting how uncomfortable information rattles the cages of so many people. It's not just a question of how much of the information is accurate. It's a question of how you personally evaluate the information made available to you. Ridicule and name-calling is not a workable information verification and validation technique.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 10, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
As today is 10/10/10, in both the international and the US denotation, I was just wondering if that had any special significance to our alien friends? Shouldn't they be writing us a message in the sky today, or something of the sort? It can't just be coincidence that we're talking about them on a day of such obviously cosmic portent.




http://www.stonebrew.com/epic/Wcbfc1d45b2d88.htm
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 10, 2010 - 10:05pm PT

General Chuck Yeager: Fear is a high-energy pep pill!


Dalai Lama: While people are often content to criticize and blame others for what goes wrong, surely we should at least attempt to put forward constructive ideas. One thing is for certain: given human beings' love of truth, justice, peace, and freedom, creating a better, more compassionate world is a genuine possibility. The potential is there.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 10, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
Tom, you wrote,

You folks are lucky to have someone doing your homework for you; and you really should mind your manners better. It's interesting how uncomfortable information rattles the cages of so many people. It's not just a question of how much of the information is accurate. It's a question of how you personally evaluate the information made available to you. Ridicule and name-calling is not a workable information verification and validation technique.

It almost sounds as though you are saying that some of this info about chem trails might be true. Do you?


graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 10, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
WBraun

climber
Oct 10, 2010 - 10:33pm PT
graniteclimber

You're some kind of obsessive klimmer stalker.

Pretty fuking weird .....

Papillon Rendre

climber
Oct 10, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
Thank you for your post, Tom.

Yesterday was the first time I heard of Chemtrails.

After doing my own research on the net, I could not find enough supporting evidence for me to become a believer.

You're right about our planet. No one can deny that fact.

I seem to remember something about the American government spraying Agent Orange in Vietnam, but denying it.

I believe the government held firm, for a long time, stating Love Canal was not toxic....and, and, and...

Anything is possible.

For what it's worth,

-PR
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 10, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
We are not killing planet earth, we are killing ourselves,
planet earth is simply biding its time.
Becoming inhospitable to us,
is it's solution.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 10, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
John Moosie, in response to your question: Obviously I think this issue is important and interesting. I do not have any direct information about it other than the following:

I have not personally viewed sample management data regarding the Mt Shasta area. I have climbed it a couple of times and visit the area periodically, regularly stopping for lunch at the Black Bear Diner. I recently flew right nearby Mt Shasta at 11,000 in my plane trailing the expected burn residue of 100LL Avgas. The mountain is a glorious sight. However it used to be all snow and ice above the tree line. It is pretty weird to realize you can now climb it without touching a snow slope.

I have been party to professional discussions at NASA regarding climate modification techniques. I know there are people thinking seriously on this subject. I am not aware of any implementations going beyond the discussion stage. The people that I know are very sensitive to environmental effects in the biosphere and would definitely not approve of something that generated wide-spread contaminants. However I can not speak for what some other organization might decide to do.

As a pilot and frequent flyer, I have personally observed the development over the years of a wide-spread brown layer in the atmosphere between 20,000-30,000 feet. Other pilots have also mentioned this to me. The worst area that I see is over the Los Angeles basin. You can see a great brown dome of contaminated air long before you are close enough to see the city.

One of my close friends at NASA Glenn in Cleveland is one of the world's experts on jet turbines, including the chemistry of their exhaust products. He is very concerned about environmental effects and has done a number of studies on jet fuel environmental effects, both officially and privately. I think that if jet fuel was being intentionally used to modify the albedo of the upper atmosphere that he would probably know about it. And I think if he knew about it, he would have made a point to tell me. I will ask him to look into it when I get a chance.

I know there are some people in government senior executive service who are not broad systems thinkers. For example I live in the Santa Cruz CA area and there has been a huge political backlash against wide-spread aerial spraying of the community, supposedly for the light-brown apple-moth. There have been news reports with claims of ill effects from the spraying. There are also a lot of factory farms in this area for artichokes, lettuce and strawberries; and I see helicopters spraying crops frequently. However we have lots of organic grocery stores locally.

Edit: I'll remind you that mountains create their own weather by forcing air up and cooling it below the dew point so that precipitation occurs. So a mountain is also in effect scrubbing out contaminates and concentrating them locally.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 11, 2010 - 12:18am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 11, 2010 - 12:19am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 11, 2010 - 12:19am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 11, 2010 - 12:23am PT
Pretty fuking weird

Werner, you want weird? This is weird.



Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
Tom and others who have responded without attack,

I really appreciate your input. The thing is these things do concern me. Do I know what is really going on? No. But I will listen. I look forward to this DVD being released. It looks like they have really done their homework. If it were not for the Michael Moore's of the World and the independant film artists and journalists we would not be hearing about any of this.

Corporate owned MSM will avoid contraversial topics that really matter like the plague.

We know what our government is capable of doing. That previous list I posted is just the tip of the iceberg.

Case in point, the use of Depleted Uranium. Even after the DoDs own research and scientists said do not do this, they went ahead and did it. They still use it. DU weapon systems abound. The fall-out wastes environments and peoples lives (both the enemy and our own soldiers), and with a half-life of 4.5 Billion years, it isn't going away. It is a War Crime that we use it. Yet this issue is so well known, and the US Government says nothing to it. They ignore it, or say it isn't a problem. Are you for real? Yet their own internal documents and research says the exact opposite, as well as independant research. It is a no brainer. We shouldn't be throwing highly radioactive oxides around throughout the environment. Duuuuuuuuuuuh.

I mean really, what is going on? It is like there is a monster at the controls of our Government and no one can pry it away from the controls. Anything goes. Shread the Constitution, shred The Bill of Rights, endless War on "Terror," pollute the environment, tank our economy and give our wealth away to the very rich, it is like they are out to destroy the United States and take the World down with it, and this is happening from the inside. No made-up outside terrorist threat can do what they have done to our Country from the inside. Jesse Ventura in his really good book, American Conspiracies, makes this point also. It is like they are deliberately destroying the US from the inside out.

And yet some sit-back and just say Conspiracy! and post-up silly images. Do you who ridicule care about anything? Anything at all? Or is it just fun and games?

I seriously wonder.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
I've looked at it for years. It is as bad as they say it is.

Don't make me have to post all those links. Just watch the DVD Beyond Treason.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 11, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
Werner said:
graniteclimber
You're some kind of obsessive klimmer stalker. Pretty fuking weird .....
I concur.

From the government link above, they're probably taking about Granite Climber:
While some segments of society will always be reluctant to examine controversial issues such as weather-modification, the tremendous military capabilities that could result from this field are ignored at our own peril

Tom, thanks for the addition of some interesting info to the discussion.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
AC,

Ah there you go posting the iaea.org whitewash propaganda.

http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/Features/DU/faq_depleted_uranium.shtml

I've taken courses from the American Nuclear Society at General Atomics for Educators using radioactive sources, geiger counters, and training in the physics of radioactive elements and isotopes. I have a collection of low level radioactive sources. But they can still be potentially dangerous if not handled correctly. I only handle them placed in a plastic bag, and when I'm done I make sure I wash my hands. Nor do I open the bag and inhale. Nor do I sleep with them under my pillow. They stay stored away from the students in a locked backroom and only I handle them for controlled demo purposes.

Yea, just tell that to the US tank soldier who gets rectal cancer from sitting on the wooden box crates in the tank holding DU tank rounds pointing at his buttox, or the Iraqi children now being born with many birth defects, or the children who have been unknowingly played around tanks that were hit with DU that were left to sit, and these children or their parents are dying from cancer due to DU exposure. International teams have gone up to these same tanks with geiger counters and the mr/hr or the C/M are at high dangerous counts.

Remember these radioactive oxides get airborn and breathed in, and come into the body through many other pathways (food, water, fingers in mouths etc.) The body doesn't get rid of these sources of radioactivity. The body accumulates it. Yes, outside the body, not so much of a problem. But inside, the body can not get rid of it, and you are continiously exposed to dangerous alpha, beta, and even gamma rays 24/7/365 for a lifetime.

Dang it all. You are gonna make me have to post all the evidence that refutes that Bull Dung.

I can even refute it with DoD internal studies.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 11, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
Klimmer,

Need to take some ACH while eating or drinking.

http://www2.parc.com/istl/projects/ach/ach.html

Do not think you will like this one but you will need it: Don’t be scared you can do it. Yes it is one of those/them.

Go to https://www.cia.gov/index.html hit library you will see Center for the Study of Intelligence: You should see CSI publications hit that, now you will see Books and Monographs, hit that: Download 2010 PDF on “Thinking and Writing: Cognitive Science and Intelligence Analysis” and same page go to 1999 and download PDF “Psychology of Intelligence Analysis” read Chapter 8 summarizes or tells you the steps that you will be doing for ACH. Read Chapter 14 as well.

Let one of your 5th graders help you on figuring it out, better yet give them this as a class project.

No conspiracy on technologies for solving energy. EU has being doing it for years. There is a Dutch company has thousands and thousands of publications on what is and being done from private, academia and government institutions in helping customers advance science and health by providing world-class information and innovative tools that help them make critical decisions, enhance productivity and improve outcomes.

Subscription is high S$$$$ but allows you to buy one paper on a given subject for knowledge for $

Tom:
Guess you would now about INDOEX
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 11, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
Sigh, now chemtrails. Really, it gets kind of sad at a certain point.

Has there been various high altitude nuclear and WMD dispersal testing, particularly during the cold war? Sure. Have there been a litany of weather modification testing and attempts? Sure. Do we do endless aerial agricultural and pest spraying? Sure. Do we use depleted uranium in munitions? Sure.

Is there or has there ever been an organized program deliberately introducing any contaminants into military or commercial aviation fuel supply? Have military or commercial planes systematically modified on any widespread basis to add non-fuel tanks and a means to introduce chemicals into planes turbines?

Absolutely not. You folks are just out-of-control ridiculous. Just where is the NWO office for the global coordination of chemtrails (undoubtably Nephilim urine), ufo and sasquatch interdimensional arrivals and departures, and the management of miscellaneous evil god spawn?
dirtbag

climber
Oct 11, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
I thought the swine flu vaccines were supposed to kill everybody?

A year later, where are all the bodies?


If this is the best the supposed NWO/Illuminati can do, why are you so afraid?
dirtbag

climber
Oct 11, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
Just where is the NWO office for the global coordination of chemtrails (undoubtably Nephilim urine), ufo and sasquatch interdimensional arrivals and departures, and the management of miscellaneous evil god spawn?
\


Why, are you looking for a job?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 11, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
As part of their evil conspiracy, the NWO masterminds built a time machine and went back to 1943 (before global warming was discovered) to plant this misinformation in the March 1943 issue of Popular Science. Both the Nazi bomber and the American fighter are shown as leaving contrails.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 11, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
Why, are you looking for a job?

No, I just figured they'd offer a better credit card rate than the other evil empires.
jeff_m

climber
somewhere fairly insignificant
Oct 11, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
Over 200 posts and no one's stated the obvious yet?

Jet propellants and fuels have changed quite a bit over the years, most notably in all the additives that they now contain---and spew forth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel

(Take a look at the Additives section, all kinds of scary goodness in there... Uh-oh---did someone say "biocides"?!)
Banquo

Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
Oct 11, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
http://www.carpaltunnelpress.com/03.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thoeflich/508005667/
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 11, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
I don't question for a moment that the chemical residue left in contrails is toxic. Why would anyone scoff at that? Suck on a car exhaust pipe and then come talk to me.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 01:12am PT
jet fuel is basically kerosene. has gasoline changed? a bit, but the basic chemistry is the same. you'd like to think the changes would reduce pollution, not increase it.

granite's vapor trail artwork confirms my basic premise: vapor trails--contrails--are very temporary clouds. the air goes back to normal a short time after the plane passes through, the cloud disappears. never have clouds expanded and filled the skies the way they do recently. on a day that's busy with this stuff, every cloud in the sky bears the long, straight configuration of having been laid there by a plane--not a hint of nature to it. as i said before, this phenomenon is relatively recent--the last 15 years or so.

granite is showing us the way it used to be, and poorly understood as well, by whoever wrote it. the disturbance from the wingtips creates a pressure drop, not a temperature drop. dew point is a function of temperature, pressure and humidity. but whatever, as the writer says, you have to look hard to see it--it disappears quickly.

that's important. if vapor trails expanded and filled the skies simply because of high humidity, they would have been doing so when that was written--50 years ago, judging by the style of it. but you had to look hard for them. you don't any more.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 01:20am PT
vapor trails--contrails--are very temporary clouds. the air goes back to normal a short time after the plane passes through, the cloud disappears. never have clouds expanded and filled the skies the way they do recently. on a day that's busy with this stuff, every cloud in the sky bears the long, straight configuration of having been laid there by a plane--not a hint of nature to it. as i said before, this phenomenon is relatively recent--the last 15 years or so.

Under the right conditions, the contrail "seeds" the growth of much larger clouds. It happens today and it happened 25-30 years ago. You either were not observant then or your memory isn't very good.

nick d

Trad climber
nm
Oct 12, 2010 - 01:30am PT
Do you go outside much, Tony? I ask because your insistence on "every cloud being a straight line", does not jibe with observed reality.

Reality....shivers
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:37am PT
The various additives in jet fuel (basically kerosene / naphtha) are due to the fact a couple of hundred species of fungus and microbes grow in it causing both sludge and tank and fuel line corrosion. About a dozen species are highly problematic, doubly so since attempts to find anti-corrosion and anti-icing additives have often ended up just feeding the microbes and making the problem even worse. The various jet fuel additives are a tenuous balancing act and response to a problem everyone wishes simply didn't exist. People don't think of 'infections' as something machines get - but in this case it's a real hassle not to mention logistic and maintenance cost associated with operating modern aircraft.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:38am PT
i hope you go outside too, nick. every day isn't a chemtrail day. since it has become an underground issue, i've noticed we can go weeks without chemtrails, but they always seem to come back. i live in los angeles--sometimes it's exactly what i said--every cloud obviously laid in a straight line, expanding unaccountably. that's not "moisture propagation".

klimmer's already posted plenty of links. google chemtrails and see for yourself. if you haven't seen skies like this you don't go outdoors.



even if you don't "believe" in chemtrails, others on this thread have expressed some alarm at airplane pollution--even if it isn't the insidious plan of the new world order, then it's just a hell of a lot of traffic and global pollution, and no one talks about it--seems automobile pollution is the only environmental issue.

if you notice chemtrails in l.a., you will notice that they do NOT follow the approach lanes to LAX. another proof that they are not a natural product of air traffic.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 10:30am PT
every day isn't a chemtrail day


finally, something to be happy about in this thread....
SFC

Trad climber
San Jose
Oct 12, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
Here's some video of chemtrail spaying. These are not coming from the jet exhaust but from separate nozzles. What is up with that?

http://www.infowars.com/pilot-films-jet-spraying-chemtrails/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 12, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
Those aren't "separate nozzles", they're the flap-track hinge fairings - not exactly a mechanically friendly place to put hoses or nozzles.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
That video is not real. Its been proven that those guys could not just be following that plane like that. and just chatting away like that.
It was copied from a gov video and voice overs were added.
SFC

Trad climber
San Jose
Oct 12, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
Healye,

OK, so I guess the "vapor" trails are coming from the "flap-track hinge fairings".

And Wonder,

Can you post some evidence supporting this faked video?
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
Just say no to infowars, prisonplanet, or anything Alex Jones.

Your fears are just being pandered to.
jeff_m

climber
somewhere fairly insignificant
Oct 12, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
Just so I'm clear, let's take the basic kerosene combustion equation:

C12H26(l) + 37/2 O2(g) → 12 CO2(g) + 13 H2O(g)

Yes, looks to be pretty basic water and carbon dioxide that would form your old-school contrails.

Now let's add any of the following (these are the increased additives introduced into jet fuel in the last 30 years, give or take):

* Antioxidants to prevent gumming, usually based on alkylated phenols, e.g., AO-30, AO-31, or AO-37;

* Antistatic agents, to dissipate static electricity and prevent sparking; Stadis 450, with dinonylnaphthylsulfonic acid (DINNSA) as the active ingredient, is an example

* Corrosion inhibitors, e.g., DCI-4A used for civilian and military fuels, and DCI-6A used for military fuels;

* Fuel System Icing Inhibitor (FSII) agents, e.g., Di-EGME; FSII is often mixed at the point-of-sale so that users with heated fuel lines do not have to pay the extra expense.

* Biocides are to remediate microbial (i.e., bacterial and fungal) growth present in aircraft fuel systems. Currently, two biocides are approved for use by most aircraft and turbine engine original equipment manufacturers (OEMs); Kathon FP1.5 Microbiocide and Biobor JF.[8]

* Metal deactivator can be added to remediate the deleterious effects of trace metals on the thermal stability of the fuel. The one allowable additive is N,N’-disalicylidene 1,2-propanediamine.

I'm kind of thinking that perhaps---and this is a major stretch---that the addition of, say, just N,N’-disalicylidene 1,2-propanediamine (C16H16N2O2) might phuck the combustion equation a bit and perhaps you may end up with chemical compounds beyond just the good ol' H2O & CO2, and perhaps that aerial residue may just hang around and react a bit more in the atmosphere.

(And how come no one's mentioned those Vandenburg launches where the contrails----sorry, I mean new-world-order-sanctioned chemtrails---not only last most of the evening, but glow in all kinds of groovy rainbow colors?)

Other than that, I'm behind you 100%.

cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 12, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
Some people say not to worry 'bout the air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psygjciJG1A
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 12, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
If you live in LA and want to worry about something then I'd worry more about the exhaust pipe in front of you and any lawn mowers you pass as you're driving.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
" *
alieniemisteri
2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show hide

l'autore del filmato ha pubblicamente dichiarato che si tratta di uno scherzo per i creduloni:

The truth is, the video is real and unedited but the title was created to poke fun at the chemtrail people.

All this video shows is a couple of KC-10's flying in formation. When I saw the contrails coming from the lead KC-10 I pulled out my video camera knowing I was going to pull this prank and the pilots played along.

So there you have it. It's just a prank on all the chemtrailers.

sorry,

-Tim
alieniemisteri 2 months ago"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKO7bkUU_oI&feature=related


thats really not arasol spraying - This is ... outside my shop I took this photo this morning.
If you just watch the sky more that your monitor screen you might realize that there's alot of monkey business going on up there.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 12, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
That's your run of the mill contrail, not a chemtrail.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
Were you outside my shop watching the plane spraying it?
Then you don't know what it is. For sure. Do you?

Edit: and I never said it was a chemtrail.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 12, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
Right - give me a break. As if from your shop you have a remote clue that it is anything but a completely normal contrail.
jeff_m

climber
somewhere fairly insignificant
Oct 12, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
Okay, since we're posting pictures, let's bring it back within the confines of the climbing community. Maybe someone wants to fill me in on the facts of this "event."

While climbing Russell (yes, climbing, go figure), I saw this:


Here are the culprits (zoomed in):


Later that day, I was fatigued. I'm guessing it was whatever they were spraying...
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
I do have a clue You see I live by Boeing air port And I watch the planes all day long and I do know the difference between arasol spraying and a contrail.


Here's a photo of a contrail. Not a very clear photo. but you can see the difference between the 2. Anyways if you dont want to do your homework I'm not here to rock your world.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
A different kind of chem trail: what a McDonald's Happy Meal looks like after 180 days.

Day 1


Day 180

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/180-Day-Happy-Meal-Art-Project/ss/events/lf/101210happymealart
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
It's not a chemtrail but it is a trail.























































Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
Why does no pseudo legitimate organization create similar detailed analysis about dickheads who constantly post apocalyptic bullshit on the internet?

Must be a conspiracy.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
A conspiracy of rational people.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
Rationality has NO place in a post-technological society.

Let's go burn a witch!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:19pm PT
Why does no pseudo legitimate organization create similar detailed analysis about dickheads who constantly post apocalyptic bullshit on the internet?
People like Klimmer leave rather obvious trails, after all.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
Yes, but his chemtrail residue is messing with the flouride in my water.
pedge

Trad climber
SW
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
At least they are doing something. People are always complaining about the government wasting money and sitting around not getting anything done. The successful introduction of mind control drugs into our air by tainting all of our jet fuel supply shows great ingenuity and a lot of hard work. Apparently the average lifespan in the US is declining, so those guys are getting it done. Why would anyone complain about that?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
The successful introduction of mind control drugs into our air by tainting all of our jet fuel supply shows great ingenuity and a lot of hard work.

Well, if the spray on ST and cascadeclimbers is any indication they're doing a piss-poor job of it. You'd think if anyone in power were doing these sorts of things for real then a high-profile guy like klimmer who's around a bunch of school kids would have gotten an umbrella jab in the leg a long time ago. But, hell, he hasn't even been tazed.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
Maybe Klimmer and his inept friends (alter-egos?) are like FatTrad - really just a false flag operation, to divert us from what's really happening. At least Fatty doesn't take himself too seriously - the clown prince of SuperTopo. Probably working undercover for the DNC.
nature

climber
Whereverland....
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
Wonder = Klimmer?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:59pm PT
Klimmer is delusional enough to think that the government is super-evil and super-conspiratorial, orchestrating 9/11, meeting, conspiring with "fallen angel" demonic aliens, committing mass genocide of it's own people by mass-spraying poison from aircraft to reduce the word population back to 500 million, practicing mind control and disinformation on a massive scale, BUT he is so special that they can't touch him.

Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
Wonder = Klimmer?

No nature. Here is Wonder trying to get his point across.


Now here is Kilmmer trying to get his point across.


Credit: "Fallen Angel" the movie
jeff_m

climber
somewhere fairly insignificant
Oct 12, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
At least we can see both of Klimmer's hands...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2010 - 07:32pm PT
jeff_M,

Thanks for posting.




"The others",

Hey, once again ST peanut gallery, it isn't about me guys. I know you desperately want it to be -- but it isn't.

The question isn't, Does it happen all the time? No, one is saying that. It doesn't.

The question is, Do Chemtrails happen at all? Seems like the evidence says yes. They have the evidence, and they have been collecting it and presenting it. Contrails do not = Chemtrails.

Is it possible? Yes.

Do we have the technology to do this? Yes.

Has any Nation government ever done anything like this before? Yes. See the post on the UK.

Is there a historical record of the US government doing illegal stupid stuff on massive scales, that eventually gets exposed or figured out? Yes. So, the point is, our US government is more than willing and capable of doing stuff like this on massive scales. See the list I posted before. That is indisputable.

Are scientific organizations now talking about doing such a thing to combat global warming? Yes, see the video and the written record on the AAAS. They talked about doing just that, when they had a meeting here in San Diego. I propose when they are already talking about it publicly in the scientific community, then the US gov has already checked into it and is experimenting already.


When the DVD comes out later this month that I first posted about, I'll be watching it. I'm guessing you won't. Why? Because you all already know it all.

Get over yourselves.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
It's not a chemtrail, it's not a cloud--what is it?

Quick, get out of the way!













































































































































































































golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
Klimmer,

chemtrails is such a 1950's technology...

All of the V-agents are persistent agents, meaning that these agents do not degrade or wash away easily and can therefore remain on clothes and other surfaces for long periods. In use, this allows the V-agents to be used to blanket terrain to guide or curtail the movement of enemy ground forces. The consistency of these agents is similar to oil; as a result, the contact hazard for V-agents is primarily - but not exclusively - dermal. VX was the only V-series agent that was fielded by the USA as a munition, consisting of rockets, artillery shells, airplane spray tanks and landmines

There used to be spray tanks designed to release VX nerve agent from Planes. All of those within the USA have been destroyed.

http://www.cma.army.mil/fndocumentviewer.aspx?DocID=003677713

I used to work where tha last one was destroyed. Rather nasty, VX is. 1 drop to kill someone.


Of course we have the technology look at Crop Dusters...

The real question is whether you believe in a secret attempt by the US Government to introduce this stuff into the Environment.

I work on some pretty high level government stuff, trust me (I work for the government) it aint happening...
Bad Climber

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
Great thread! The dynamic duo of Klimmer and Granite (fine stone for climbing, don't you know). Keep the awesome photos coming.

Klimmer: I fear for your students. Don't fall so easily for well-documented hearsay.

BAd
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:43am PT
trust me (I work for the government)

richard nixon's famous last words.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 13, 2010 - 04:18am PT
Was richard nixon famous?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
Bob,
Have you heard anything about using jet fuel additives to modify upper atmosphere albedo as a global warming solution; or for other reasons?
I hope you are doing well,
Tom


Hi Tom
There have been a lot of suggestions as to fuel additives
A colleague has worked these…but I don’t know the status
I am not working additives, but AF has their own package they add to make JP8…and so it would not surprise me that some additives are being thought to eliminate contrails.
However, this also seems closely related to the dumping of SO2 into the upper atmosphere for engineered climate control…To me this is really Roulette…Fooling around with the upper atmosphere is really dangerous, as no one knows the implications or the long term affects on the Planet.
All in the name of doing nothing about the foreign oil base when we could do otherwise…Many of the North Sea countries are as is China in a BIG way.
Bob
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
Tom,

Thanks for that insider email info. :-))
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
^^lame^^
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Nov 7, 2010 - 11:46am PT
bumping this beast, having some across a somewhat different interpretation of it all:

http://www.lightw#tcher.com/chemtrails/playing_god.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
The URL above doesn't work, but this does:
http://www.lightw#tcher.com/chemtrails/playing_god.html


This is weird. Posted the correct url, then it automatically changes the a to #. You must copy the url paste into browser and then change the # to a.

Very strange. Who out there knows (a computer guru) why the url lightw#tcher is automatically changed to lightw#tcher?


I can't even type the word l-i-g-h-t-w-a-t-c-h-e-r, without it changing it automatically.

Very weird.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Nov 7, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
i think it's a supertopo glitsch, klimmer. it often does that with certain combinations of the word "water", which is close to "watcher". go figure.

but--an interesting take on chemtrails, don't you think?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 7, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
Klimmer, The domain for http://lightw.com/#tcher.com/chemtrails/playing_god.html

is http://lightw.com .

The character # specifies a subsection and thus points http://www.lightw#tcher.com to http://lightw.com/#tcher.com


see the "URL encoding" section at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Query_string

"Some characters cannot be part of a URL (for example, the space) and some other characters have a special meaning in a URL: for example, the character # can be used to further specify a subsection (or fragment) of a document; the character = is used to separate a name from a value. A query string may need to be converted to satisfy these constraints. This can be done using a schema known as URL encoding."
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Nov 7, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
what i find interesting is that all the worldwide concern about the ozone hole seemed to disappear rather quickly about the time all the chemtrail activity picked up.
Abenda

climber
Nov 17, 2010 - 05:21am PT
its on to bigger things, tony. I just found this. yo klimmer check it out. Not conspiracy.

TC Group
News Release
10 May 2010
As huge cloud-whitening experiment goes public,
global coalition urges an immediate halt to
geoengineering
First UN talks on issue in thirty years begin today
http://www.handsoffmotherearth.org
Amidst revelations in this weekend’s London Times newspaper1 that a team of
scientists and engineers funded by billionaire Bill Gates are planning to carry
out a 10,000 square kilometer field trial of controversial “cloud-whitening”
technology, over one hundred civil society groups are urging governments
meeting on biological diversity in Nairobi to stop risky geoengineering
experiments now. Geoengineering refers to large-scale technological schemes to
intentionally alter the planet’s systems as a quick fix for climate change.
The San Francisco based “Silver Lining Project” directed by entrepreneur Kelly
Wanser has so far received $300,000 from Bill Gates to develop technologies that
will increase the whiteness of marine clouds. Theoretically, executed on a
massive scale, whiter clouds could increase the earth’s albedo, reflecting more
sunlight back to space and thereby reduce global warming (without changing the
composition of greenhouse gases which cause warming). The Silver Lining
Project has decided to press ahead with plans to alter cloud-cover over an
undisclosed 10,000 square kilometre patch of ocean (as large as the BP oil slick
was a few days ago). If not stopped, the Gates ‘cloud-bleaching’ experiment
would be the largest known geoengineering field trial to date. Its effects could
include changes in rainfall and other altered weather patterns. Among the sites
frequently spoken of by scientists engaged in this research are the Pacific coasts
of North and South America (specifically California, Ecuador, Peru and Chile).
Most worrisome, the Times revealed: “The British and American scientists
involved do not intend to wait for international rules on technology that
deliberately alters the climate.” Such rules could be set in motion this week as
scientists and diplomats from 193 nations meet under the auspices of the
UN Convention on Biological Diversity’s scientific body. The meeting in Nairobi
1 See Ben Webster, Bill Gates Pays for artificial clouds to beat greenhouse gases, 8 May 2010,
Times Online at
http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article7120011.ece
of SBSTTA 14 (Subsidiary Body of Scientific, Technical and Technological
Advice, running from May 10-21 2010) is the first time a UN Body has addressed
geoengineering as a whole since the signing of the ENMOD Treaty in Geneva in
1976 that banned environmental modification for “hostile uses”.2
A new global coalition will be urging governments in Nairobi to adopt a
moratorium on all geoengineering experiments, just as the UN Convention on
Biological Diversity adopted a moratorium on ocean fertilization in 2008. Over
one hundred organizations and individuals, including leading names in the
environmental and global justice movement have joined H.O.M.E. campaign:
Hands off Mother Earth--Our Home is not a Laboratory
(www.handsoffmotherearth.org).
“Our Home Planet Earth should not be treated as a laboratory for risky
geoengineering experiments,” says Silvia Ribeiro of ETC Group in Mexico from
the Nairobi SBSTTA meeting. “Human-caused climate change already threatens
our lands, seas, food supply and rights. We do not want to embark on another
dangerous experiment with our planet. If they think that the people and
governments of Ecuador, Peru or Chile – or anywhere else they might try -- will
stand idly by as they mess with our oceans, clouds and weather, they are in for a
surprise. Delegates here are shocked by these plans.”
“We knew Microsoft was developing cloud applications for computers but we
didn’t expect this,” explained Jim Thomas of ETC Group, one of the founding
organizations of the HOME campaign “Bill Gates and his cloud-wrenching
cronies have no right to unilaterally change our seas and skies in this way. A
global moratorium on geoengineering experiments just became a whole lot more
urgent and the meeting in Nairobi is a fine place to ensure that it gets put into
place rapidly.”
-30-
Additional background:
What: Geoengineering refers to large-scale technological proposals to fix climate
change by deliberately altering the climate, weather, atmosphere and oceans.
Examples of geoengineering schemes include dumping nutrients into the sea to
grow algal blooms (called Ocean Fertilization), turning extensive monoculture
plantations into charcoal to bury in the soil (called biochar) and deliberately
polluting the upper atmosphere with sulphur or aluminium particles to reflect
sunlight (called stratospheric aerosols) as well as cloud-whitening. All of these
experiments have large potential impacts on environment, biodiversity and the
livelihoods of people especially in the Global South. Geoengineering advocates
2 Convention on the Prohibition of Military or any other Hostile Use of Environmental
Modification Techniques. See http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/enmod/text/environ2.htm
argue that there is no time for a global political agreement to address the real
causes of climate change, so brave new scientists and wealthy entrepreneurs
should save the world for all of us instead, with their own technofixes.
There are now several geoengineering experiments getting underway without
any global oversight framework in place and larger experiments are planned.
Geoengineers, including those behind the Gates cloud-wrenching test have
recently proposed “voluntary guidelines” rather than full independent
multilateral oversight of the field. The proposal currently before SBSTTA 14 is for
governments to look into the biodiversity implications of geoengineering (as well
as to examine the ongoing work on ocean fertilization which began in 2008). Civil
society groups are insisting experiments be stopped while governments examine
the implications of such research.
Who: A new global campaign and coalition to stop Geoengineering experiments
was launched last month at an international climate change meeting in
Cochabamba, Bolivia. This Hands Off Mother Earth (H.O.M.E.) Campaign is
calling on governments through the UN to put a halt to unilateral open-air
geoengineering experiments – arguing they are too risky and unjust. Supporters
of the HOME campaign against geoengineering include high profile
environmentalists such as Bill McKibben, David Suzuki, Vandana Shiva and
Naomi Klein. Organizations supporting the HOME campaign include ETC
Group, Friends of the Earth International, Third World Network, Indigenous
Environmental Network, la Via Campenina, Asian Indigenous Peoples Pact,
Biofuelwatch and many others.
Show of Hands: Additionally members of the public have been uploading their
pictures with their hands held up with messages against geoengineering to a
growing photo petition at http://www.handsoffmotherearth.org. A giant poster
displaying the protest is on display at SBSTTA 14 in Nairobi and ETC Group has
three people at the meeting, working with campaign partners to inform delegates
of the protest and the reasons behind it.
For more information about Hands Off Mother Earth Campaign see
http://www.handsoffmotherearth.org
In Nairobi:
*Neth Dano, neth@etcgroup.org cell & SMS + 63 917 532 9369
Nairobi cell: +254 712 605 622
Silvia Ribeiro, silvia@etcgroup.org cell & SMS +52 1 55 2653 3330
Nairobi cell: +254 712 601 660
*Molly Kane, molly@etcgroup.org cell & SMS: + 1 613 797 642
In Canada:
Diana Bronson - diana@etcgroup.org; cell: +1 514 629 9236
Jim Thomas - jim@etcgroup.org cell: +1 514 516 5759
Pat Mooney – etc@etcgroup.org cell: +1 613 240 0045
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 17, 2010 - 05:39am PT
You guys are kidding me right? Someone is selling Bill quite a bill of goods there. Do any of you know anything about aerosolizing water? Well, I know just enough to be dangerous from working in greenhouses and checking out some outdoor a/c systems in the SW. The level of filtration required to do it on any practical level is mind-boggling. Simply put, the energy required to pump, filter, and project seawater to 3000' is enormous. And over 3800 square miles? Ever been out to sea? You could have a fleet the equivalent of the US Navy's destroyer fleet and you couldn't make fog on a sunny day let alone a cloud deck in an area that size. That, and any deckhand would explain how a little four letter word would derail any such attempt - salt. Also, one way or another you'd be burning and ocean of bunker oil to even make the attempt. Get a grip - it's a ridiculous proposition - ain't gonna happen no matter how much money Bill throws at the problem.
Abenda

climber
Nov 17, 2010 - 06:03am PT
So your saying that the richest and one of the most powerful man in america and the world with ultiment ties to the goverment & the military doesn't know what he is talking about or doing.
I think you need to get a grip.

And why are you up so late and checking this thread? Shuffeling about wondering if we will catch onto goverment lies. It's so beyond that now!
Good luck. You'll need it. Good nite.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 17, 2010 - 06:42am PT
Common sense my friend, common sense.

I can assure you Bill Gates doesn't know squat about any of the realities involved - plenty of other ex-Navy guys around here will tell you the same thing. Complete bullocks from start to finish and $300k will buy you or Bill some pretty pictures, bad videos, and a couple of hundred pages of bullshit and that's about it. Does it hurt to explore ideas and think things through? Nah, but none of it will ever pencil out from an energy perspective and certainly not in the face of replenishment and maintenance realities.

You lend way too much credence to geoengineering - there is no credible short-term geoengineering solution to the problem of climate change. Simply put the scale, scope, expense, and energy involved with any large-scale technological attempts like this to directly counter or offset the effects of increasing populations and the burning of wood, coal, and oil to sustain them are doomed to failure.

It's just more warm, fuzzy-feeling sci-fi that feeds the delusion that humans can and will somehow organize and invest en masse for collective societal returns in some distant future or generation on one hand, or that some [evil of course] hyper-competent 'government' or 'secret society' exists and is capable of doing these sorts things on the other. Both are going to be pretty damn disappointing notions from my perspective.

In this case and scenario, it just isn't gonna happen / work even if Bill, George Soros, and Warren Buffet each spent their entire fortunes on the venture tomorrow. If you think it will I have an ark on the far side of the moon I'd like to sell you. And if Bill wants to do something productive for global warming he should sink a few bucks into his own backyard to help stop the wholly ridiculous prospect of burning mass quantities of diesel and bunker oil in trains and ships in order to move Montana coal to China via the port in Longview, WA so it can pollute Asia and dump more mercury on the West coast.

Sure, let's attempt to make fleets of ocean-going vaporizers before simply stopping the bulk movement of coal around the world - great idea. Personally, I'd say Bill needs to get his priorities in order.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Nov 17, 2010 - 11:33am PT
sounds like pretty hot stuff, abenda, basically conceding the chemtrails issue. way too much for me to read through today.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 17, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
Tony, your bar for hotness is pretty low. Coal on boats to china is a very real 'conspiracy' but obviously not as fun.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Nov 18, 2010 - 09:46am PT
healyje, i think you're as old a fart as i am. i grew up under the skies of the 50s, 60s and 70s, and there was never anything like what we see today. did you grow up in the black hole of manhattan where they never look up at the sky? there are a lot of people on ST who were born in the 80s and grew up in the 90s. they grew up assuming chemtrails are normal.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
Abenda,

Thanks for posting that.

Pretty much confirms they were already doing it.

They usually do things first and then try to ask permission.

It's a sad World we live in.

I do not like these mad scientists who do global experiments at our risk and the risk to the health and balance to the entire planet.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 18, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 18, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
Pretty much confirms they were already doing it.

WTF? No, it confirms that Bill gave $300k to some folks in SF to think about it some more, which is all $300k will buy you in such an endeavor. That amount of money wouldn't buy you the keel of a ship capable being a platform for the attempt.

Again, not a single one of the proposed direct offset solutions on that chart will work and individually or collectively would never achieve the necessary scale to even be classified a failure.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 16, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
if it's on television, you have to believe it, right?

oops--wrong link.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 16, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
here's the link i meant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okB-489l6MI

Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Feb 1, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
Annals of the Bohemian Club 1872-1880
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250767391466&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#ht_500wt_1156
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 1, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
How can they let this important volume of inside Illuminati records be auctioned off? This is worse than Wikileaks!
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Feb 4, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
Good thing you deleted that post Abenda.

I mean come on, goat-milk chemtrails?

Not even Klimmer or Tony would go for that. Ok, maybe Tony.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 4, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
As someone who has followed all the recombinate work on spider silk for twenty years it is hard to understate the level of inanity, stupidity, gross lapses in basic common sense, flawed logic, and lack of basic science demonstrated throughout the linkchain you posted.

Even a couple of basic thought exercises would tell you it's ludicrous on the face of it.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 5, 2011 - 12:09am PT
The Illuminati (you know, graniteclimber's people) are trying to kill us through:

-Chemtrails
-Fluoridated water
-Swine Flu Vaccines

And we're still alive.

The only conclusion I can reach is that graniteclimber, your people suck. Are you capable of doing anything right?
Abenda

climber
Feb 5, 2011 - 12:13am PT
WTF I cant get to the last post
WBraun

climber
Feb 5, 2011 - 12:16am PT
goat-milk chemtrails

Hahahahah

Too funny .....
Abenda

climber
Feb 5, 2011 - 12:48am PT
Hay Healyje, Can you post up some of your studies and info from the past 20 years. You worked in the Navy, right? Im really interested in why you dont think this spraying program wont work. I have been following the processes of terraforming for the past 20 years & I think our gov & Bill are on to someting here. I dont believe that it is a Nazi plot to kill us. ( Well that could be true, duh ) But I do believe that you are wrong sir to believe that our TPTB are not trying to change our climate as we speak.
If you dont go outside and really you know realy, realy watch watch what different planes do in the sky above you, you will not understand the program of spraying.
I am lucky that I live in jet city and am very unemployed & live by Boeing airport in Georgetown. I watch a billon jets everyday. I aint stupid>
Healyje what up?
Abenda

climber
Feb 5, 2011 - 12:54am PT
I didnt mean to delete it but you gott my drift
dirtbag

climber
Feb 5, 2011 - 01:06am PT
Hay Healyje, Can you post up some of your studies and info from the past 20 years. You worked in the Navy, right? Im really interested in why you dont think this spraying program wont work. I have been following the processes of terraforming for the past 20 years & I think our gov & Bill are on to someting here. I dont believe that it is a Nazi plot to kill us. ( Well that could be true, duh ) But I do believe that you are wrong sir to believe that our TPTB are not trying to change our climate as we speak.
If you dont go outside and really you know realy, realy watch watch what different planes do in the sky above you, you will not understand the program of spraying.
I am lucky that I live in jet city and am very unemployed & live by Boeing airport in Georgetown. I watch a billon jets everyday. I aint stupid>
Healyje what up?




Abenda

climber
Feb 5, 2011 - 01:06am PT
Hey dirtbag, what do you think ? Am I just f*#king the dog ? I go outside and see the spraying. What do you do 24/7 ? where do you live ?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 5, 2011 - 01:19am PT

>^..^<
Abenda

climber
Feb 5, 2011 - 01:34am PT
Let's here it for the Canadians ! Sick trick aerosol spraying !
Abenda

climber
Feb 5, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
just checkin
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Feb 5, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
Healyj wrote
You lend way too much credence to geoengineering - there is no credible short-term geoengineering solution to the problem of climate change. Simply put the scale, scope, expense, and energy involved with any large-scale technological attempts like this to directly counter or offset the effects of increasing populations and the burning of wood, coal, and oil to sustain them are doomed to failure.


Whatever happened to nuclear winter being caused by a relatively small amount of warheads going off around the world? Thought that was an actual scientific concern

just those devils in the details make it impractical!

Peace

Karl

Abenda

climber
Feb 5, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
Ok I still cant go to the last page without posting so here This is a good read on proper studies on high altitude aerosol spraying.

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/product.biblio.jsp?query_id=0&page=3&osti_id=861062&Row=1
new world order-

climber
Oct 25, 2011 - 12:31am PT
They're not called chemtrails, at least by the scientific community.

Geo engineering..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoengineering

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=geoengineering-how-to-cool-earth

http://www.economist.com/node/17414216

Geo engineering Uh, Oh, It's really Happening (Not OT)

Mighty Hiker, graniteclimber, locker, what say you?
Will you deny climate engineering is a reality?

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 24, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
Here ya go!
couchmaster

climber
Dec 3, 2018 - 06:17am PT


Still keeping an open mind regarding "chemtrails". That folks who believe in chemtrails have been derided as tinfoil hat wearing paranoids is true, as this thread notes. Looks like that might change. Short version Titled: "After mocking “chemtrails” for over a decade, global elites suddenly announce geoengineering plan to “dim the sun” with aerial spraying": https://www.newstarget.com/2018-11-30-after-mocking-chemtrails-global-elites-announce-geoengineering-plan.html

or

https://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/the-elites-admit-chemtrailing-is-real-in-their-new-dim-the-sun-approach-to-global-warming/






2010 I noted:
"Granite Climber, did you click any of these links Klimmer gave? I did and it has changed some of my assumptions.

Certainly our history is filled with instances wherein the public has believed one truth, yet years later it is quietly seen as a lie. For instance, "Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead" was the screaming headline that got "tough" Teddy Roosevelt elected. Yet after sending an armed force over to free the man from what all US citizens knew was a barbary pirate of the worse sort (Raisuli), it was quietly decided to just secretly pay the ransom, even though by then it had been learned that Perdicaris was not even a US citizen. That Teddy got Perdicaris alive through tough talk and military action was what was "known" to be the truth by all US citizens.

But it was not true. We paid the ransom."

What the population is told by the government isn't often what is real. Gulf of Tonkin anyone?
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2018 - 07:34am PT
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Dec 3, 2018 - 10:51am PT
Anyone else miss Klimmer? What a hoot. Geo-engineering the climate is interesting; however, it's not going to be done with commercial jets leaving contrails, which are "chem," of course, just not what the conspiracy loonies think. Sigh....

BAd
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 3, 2018 - 10:58am PT
The mere mention of Klimmer makes me laugh. Good entertainment bump
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 3, 2018 - 11:08am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Dec 3, 2018 - 11:23am PT
Klimmer is back.

Btw, the hush hush chemtrail conspiracy presented as something that has actually happened/has been happening for some time (not to be confused with prospective geo engineering studies/proposals) is still just as bonkers as it was 8 years ago.
Messages 1 - 256 of total 256 in this topic
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta