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GC
Trad climber
london
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 23, 2010 - 07:35am PT
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Hi all,
I'm from the UK and have just returned from 2 weeks climbing around California.
I have a question! In the UK we often climb on 2 half ropes (typically about 8.5mm thick)to reduce rope drag, increase protection opportunities, allow for full rope length rappels etc.
However this approach seemed quite novel to most of the climbers we met, many having never seen the concept before, some even suggesting it was madness and very dangerous (not sure how two ropes is less safe than one but there you go).
I did note that many climbers would trail a thinner rope up behind them or a bulk of thick cord attached to their harness. Surely if you are going to do that then it would be no more weight to take 2 half ropes?
I appreciate that on straight up crack climbs this is not an issue but on the more wondering route it would be of benefit.
Not a criticism by any means just genuinely interested why this double rope system don't seem to have caught on in the states (maybe it is used and I just didn't see it) Anybody any thoughts on this.
In case people don't know what I am talking about here is a linkhttp://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=48
Cheers
G
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Auto-X Fil
Mountain climber
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Sep 23, 2010 - 07:51am PT
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They are very common in the Eastern US, particularly on ice and when climbing with a party of 3.
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ExtraBlue
Ice climber
the ford VT
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Sep 23, 2010 - 09:08am PT
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Two weeks in Cali might not be enough to judge the climbing trends of the USA. But climbing rock on two 8.5s seems like a really good way to trash a pair of ropes in just a few months. We use doubles and twins and singles and tags. Just depends on the situation, and cragging is rarely a situation which requires doubles...
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Sep 23, 2010 - 09:09am PT
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I have a set and use them when I expect long rappels. I use them as singles for back country and winter if I comfortable with a skinny rope or can double it for a half length.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2010 - 09:48am PT
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Used to do it some, conclusion, too much of a pain in the ass. especially on hanging belays. Life is too short to spend if flaking out twice as many ropes. useful in aproppriate situations, though
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murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
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Sep 23, 2010 - 10:11am PT
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Because 8.5 + 8.5 = 17 and who wants to climb on a 17mm rope if you don't have to? Plus the weight (volume) to diameter ratio goes up even faster as it is to the third power.
I'm guessing this is tongue in cheek, but anyway... the total cross-section of:
two 8.5mm ropes is 113.5 square mm
one 17mm rope is 227 square mm
one 10mm rope is 78.5 square mm
So there is only about 50% extra cross section, and hence weight, carrying two 8.5s, which is about the same as carrying a 10mm and a 6mm.
The weight of a rope is (roughly) proportional to its cross-section, which is pi*r^2, and has nothing to do with the third power (and if weight were proportional to the third power of the radius, two 8.5s would actually be lighter than one 10).
But I can't even keep one rope straight.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Sep 23, 2010 - 10:11am PT
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We're (mostly) not British in the US. Hence we don't use double ropes.
It's that simple really.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 23, 2010 - 10:29am PT
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I have a set I use for ice and alpine work.
For normal cragging? Twice the cost, twice the hassle, and not really needed.
+1. I tend to climb crack routes that don't wander around much. If I were climbing somewhere with lots of tiers/roofs (Southeast, Gunks), or face routes that wander, I'd probably use them more.
That, and the fact that an 8mm half rope would last about a day in Joshua Tree.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Sep 23, 2010 - 10:36am PT
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GC: It's inevitable that we'll all eventually go the two-rope route. You guys started wearing helmets before we did, too. :)
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sep 23, 2010 - 10:51am PT
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GC: It's inevitable that we'll all eventually go the two-rope route.
Some of us have already gone that route. But as several posters have already pointed out, a lot of climbers here use a single when that is appropriate and doubles when doubles are appropriate. If you spent some time climbing in the back country in the US & Canada, or came over for some ice, you'd see a lot more doubles.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2010 - 10:55am PT
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You fricken Limeys all wander around and climb sideways.
We Americans head straight up into the void.
The direct method.
One rope, one way .........
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2010 - 11:14am PT
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"It's a five ten mantle into heaven, brother."
And toast she be eaten warm and not allowed to cool in racks.
and
Beer is best served cold!
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 23, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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Ugh. It's so much harder to text if you have to deal with two ropes.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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The last time I used dble ropes was to belay Jim Waugh on a new route (5.12 face) from a fully hanging belay.
"Slack on pink"
"no, that's Red, keep that one close."
"Keep me tight on both spaghetti's Jim!"
i fell anyway.
What a phucking clusterf*#k
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Sep 23, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
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Without a doubt the most dropped climbers occur from using GriGri's,which don't work with doubles.
If you are stacking twice you are doing it wrong,they should always be stacked or pulled up together so they remain in sync.
I can't imagine roping up for anything serious with someone who can't manage to belay two ropes.Tradchick has had it mastered since day one.
Tag lines, stupid rappel tricks,carrying ropes on your back all seem utterly foolish by comparison,at least to me.
We own one single which comes out about twice a year,and right now have five sets of doubles in various states of wear.
Best for ice,best for multipitch rappels,best for clipping overhead,best for wandering long pitches,best for alpine.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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dble ropes suck donkey dick, technically speaking.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Sep 23, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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In the East we spell it embrace. Few indeed are the climbers here in the states I've met that could hold a candle to the scarefests I've seen and belayed Brits for lad.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 23, 2010 - 01:46pm PT
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For several years, all of my multi-pitch climbing was on double ropes. When climbing 5.8 with big ledges, it was no big deal. When we got up to harder climbs and started having hanging belays, it slowed us down too much. I'm sure plenty of double rope users will say it doesn't slow them down (and more power to you--I'm just trying to answer the OP's question), but it sure did us. On most routes, I can second way faster than my partner can stuff the ropes into a rope bag. Flaking back and forth across a sling usually works, but on those occasions when it doesn't, the time lost can be huge.
And I don't take two ropes much any more. For backcountry climbing, I'm climbing on a single, light, 70m. Trying to rap more than 35m, and rapping with a knot, sets you up for stuck ropes (and more rocks pulled down). I'm done with that. Many of the "two" rope raps, in Yosemite for instance, can be done with a single 70m (on rare occasions by leaving a sling or a little downclimbing).
Cutting rope drag on wandering routes would be nice, but if you are willing to plan ahead and extend slings, rare seems to be an issue.
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richross
Trad climber
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Sep 23, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
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Somewhere in America.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Sep 23, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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In the East we spell it Nazi.Nice shot Rich.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Sep 23, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
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After climbing on doubles for 10 years in the Gunks and then climbing with a single for the past 15 years in the Gunks, I was just thinking about going back to doubles. I like doubles when climbing with a good, organized partner. However, there are some partners which I would avoid using doubles with. One of these unorganized guys could get tangled in a tire swing.
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ps
climber
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Sep 23, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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Seems like doubles/halves and twins are a lot more of a cluster. At least that's why I'd go with a single line.
Lots of alpinists seem to be going with a single 9.2mm or so lead line, and a pull cord of ~6mm that they leave in a pack until they need if for rapping.
I'd rather stick with a single lead line just for the ease of rope management.
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perswig
climber
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Sep 23, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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"One of these unorganized guys could get tangled in a tire swing."
Have we met?
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 23, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
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Richross beat me to it, but I thought this thread needed a picture or two:
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tradchick
Trad climber
Vermont
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Sep 23, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
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Nutjob has the right idea. My first ice lead of the season (2 winters ago)
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sac
Trad climber
spuzzum
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Sep 23, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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Yo!
Double ropes... The BOMB!!... sometimes...
sometimes... not so much.
If yer haven a cluster bumble... yer not doing in right... imo.
Skinnies + reversos... Hell yeah! Tell me it ain't slick, Ga-head!!
BTW I live and climb in "the western world"
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 23, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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Why don't you guys use toothbrushes?
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richross
Trad climber
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Sep 23, 2010 - 07:18pm PT
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Whip it good!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 23, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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A selection of previously posted photos
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Sep 23, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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technically speaking indeed
no reason for 2 ropes in any of those photos
just use some runners
mammut has the 70m 8.9 single rope now... still above 8kN
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sac
Trad climber
spuzzum
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Sep 23, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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Snow... remember... rapping off could be a reason... darn good one at that amigo!
Suppose you could always trail a rope instead...
wait a minute........
Naaaaaaaa! That would suuuck!!
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Sep 24, 2010 - 12:59am PT
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or you could have a tiny diameter pull line for single rope rap- but your point is taken
rapped the sunspot on the hulk in 6 raps with an 80m just a few weeks ago- no knot to get tangled up with stuff- very sweet
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sep 24, 2010 - 01:03am PT
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Two ropes won't fit into my gri-gri...
dude, you're just not using small enough ropes. Try a pair of 4mm ropes. Bet you could get them in your GG
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 24, 2010 - 01:51am PT
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The Swedes are passed masters of double rope technique...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sep 24, 2010 - 02:52am PT
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That is a disturbing image Reilly. Are any of those climbers still alive?
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 24, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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I wouldn't say that none of those photos show any benefit for double ropes (for the going up), but it is only one or two with the rest not showing any benefit.
Is it my imagination (and longing for the good old days that didn't really exist) or do the modern, skinny ropes twist more than ropes of lore?
BITD being a clueless newbie doing all my climbing on a heavy 11m, I don't remember much problems with tangles. Now, despite 20 years experience, and extreme care--since twisted ropes are a rant of mine; I know to be careful uncoiling the rope, not twisting the rope when belaying, rapping, etc. and whatnot--the ropes appear to twist when weighted (sometimes just from rope drag) and then untwist when unweighted. Some ropes (brands? models? luck of the draw?) seem a little better or worse, but most annoy me at some point.
So, for those of you who profess love of double ropes and patronize those of us who claim to find them unwieldy (and its not lack of experience--I climbed on doubles for 3 straight years)... with double ropes at a hanging belay, are you stuffing both ropes into a rope bag, flaking them back and forth on a sling (like I would with a single) or avoiding climbs with hanging belays (or some other magical rope technique)? If flaking both ropes on a sling, the ropes are never so twisty that you aren't fighting to get them through the belay device without slowing the leader? Or perhaps you only use them on superhard climbs and never have to worry about a leader on easy terrain who is climbing a 100 feet in a matter of minutes?
Inquiring trolls want to know...
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sac
Trad climber
spuzzum
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Sep 24, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
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Aug,
Uuuuuummm ...yeah
pretty much I just grab the ropes, the reverso,
And go climbing.
I treat the ropes at any belay, kinda as if they were one... together... or something ... sometimes they twist, and stuff. sometimes they don't.
Hope this helps.
A.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Sep 24, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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Single rope technique in all its glory (Italy):
Too funny...
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richross
Trad climber
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Sep 24, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
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Gunks, Coexistence,late 80's
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bmacd
Trad climber
Certified KooK 100% Canadian
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Sep 24, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
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weld_it correctly observes: accid-net already happened
Photos clearly show these twin rope climbers are under the influence of hallucinogens
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 24, 2010 - 11:37pm PT
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HaHaHa- perspicacious analysis from Weld_It.
I must admit I was somewhat bemused by the disaster potential which, happily, was unrealized.
Of course, all concerned would have been fully covered by their Swedish socialist system.
Personally, I would rarely consider going on a major alpine climb without double ropes.
Having used it extensively I am appreciative of its advantages and tolerant of its potential for a royal clusterphuk.
This shot is a good example of how it minimizes rope drag and the need to use lengthy runners...
You can see that Ulf was able to get pro on both sides of the arete.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Sep 25, 2010 - 09:50am PT
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We do.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 25, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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Does two belayers count?!?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 25, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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rick a ^^^^
that pic reminds me of the last(3'rd)pitch of T. Zone. but that ain't granite, and i ain't been there in a long while...
edit: the first photo, not the second.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 25, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
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It seems to me that smaller diamater ropes (aka doubles) twist easier than fat ropes.
It is annoying to deal with a twisted single, but it is extremely rare for the belayer (meaning my partner or I) to ever not be able to keep up with the climber (lead or second).
Dealing with a twisted double (even if it is no more common) too often means that the belayer can't keep up with the climber (shaking out a rope that is twisted to both itself and partner rope and trying to get both through the atc with the appropriate slack for whichever is beiing clipped--and yes, I've had a few years practice, its only a problem when there are twists.). Instead of being annoyed, I'm apoplectic that upward progress is being limited by the belayer (I guess fast and light is too hard wired into my style--even when time is not of the essence). The situations where doubles are useful don't make up for the times when I'm conscious that they are slowing us down. So sure, a wandering climb on a blocky route (ie big belay ledges) where the descent takes two ropes, but I don't find myself on that route much.
And I'm not trying to ruin anyones double rope fun (well, not too much), but the OP seemed to think that the lack of double rope usage is only from ignorance. It aint.
cheers
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 27, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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A few responses to comments about double ropes.
1. The pictures posted were in response to whether people here used them. They were neither selected nor intended to specifically demonstrate the utility of double ropes.
2. Double ropes have a number of advantages, only one of which is dealing with wandering routes.
3. It is true that in many cases, a single rope can be routed through wandering protection pieces by using long slings. On crags where there may be nearby things for a falling leader to hit, long slings on certain pieces may not be a happy thing. But even when hitting things isn't a problem, the straighter rope paths obtainable with double ropes means less system stiffness. I suspect this is the reason that many people are convinced that double ropes provide softer catches, despite the fact that when tested, single half-rope strands do not have lower peak impact forces than for full ropes.
4. Twisting. I've been using Mammut Genesis ropes for quite a few years now. I've never had any twisting problems at all---none. But I do take the precaution, if the stance allows it, of not tying in on the first pitch until the ropes have been taken up by the belayer, which allows the ropes to untwist as much as possible before such twists as there are are ``locked in'' by the second tying in. The same procedure is valuable for a single rope.
I think that in some cases twists in each strand can be introduced by improper untwisting technique for double strands. If the double strands are twisted, they ought to be untwisted by the climber rotating on a vertical axis, which is how the twists were created. Putting one strand over the head and then stepping over it (perhaps more than once) will separate twisted stands, but will leave the original twist in one strand and introduce even more twisting in the manipulated strand.
By the way, twisting occurs in a single rope if the climber rotates on a vertical axis too. Double ropes provide immediate evidence of such twists, but with a single rope, you only find out if and when the rope begins to kink.
5. Clusterphucks. I don't think they are a major problem, but they can happen when you can't just pile the ropes on a ledge and they certainly are a pain. I'm not fond of ropes smaller than 8.5mm in diameter; the smaller ones seem more prone to bad behavior. Good flaking technique matters, but you can't always get those hanging loops properly graduated while managing the ropes during the belay.
For multipitch routes where time matters, I've found that the Metolius Rope Hook completely eliminates tangling problems at hanging belays. The reason is because the belayer lifts the loops off the hook and drops them, rather than pulling them out as has to be done when the ropes are flaked over either a sling, the belay tie-in, or the belayer's feet. When loops are pulled, they can lasso other loops and drag them along, but this never happens when the loops are simply lifted off the hook and dropped. Yeah, its another gimmick to carry, and I don't do it on smaller crags, but it is worth bringing a pair of rope hooks along on longer climbs if you are using double ropes.
6. I think the biggest drawback of double ropes is their weight. At the top of a long pitch, you may notice the rope weight hanging off you, especially if you are used to climbing on skinny singles.
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Paul
Trad climber
Muir Beach, CA
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Sep 27, 2010 - 01:38am PT
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Just spent two weeks in Yo (Tuolumne/Ditch) climbing with the wife and Niece. Nothing but doubles and we moved faster than most.
Ya, the single is nice with one, but doubles serve their purpose.
I will take doubles, any day, on a first ascent which gives multiple safety measures. Anyone else posting otherwise is a newbie-wannabe.
;)
P
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LAP
Boulder climber
Golden, Co
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Sep 27, 2010 - 09:27am PT
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My husband and I like to use double ropes most of the time. We tend to climb easier routes that wonder up the path of least resistence.
Lucinda
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 27, 2010 - 09:44am PT
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BINTD it was a single 11m for me. launched into some fairly comitting climbs with no clue as to how to get down if something bad happened. These days I am old and chicken. anything multi pitch its doubbles for me. has little to do with the wandering protectrion thing and everything to do with the ability to bail easily, protection from cut ropes, ability to distribute loads to 2 diferent pieces in a single location by clipping one rope to each piece, ease of self rescue especialy when retrieveing stuck ropes. Just a few weeks ago we got the ropes stuck rapping P6 of a back country rt in NH. yellow rope hopelessly wedged in a crack. i lead back up on the red rope to free it. No problem. Heck I have pulled that move at least 3 times over the years..
Single rope for cragging is certainly the way to go but doubbles for anything commiting is a huge peace of mind factor for me. Most clusters and twisting issues are user error.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Sep 27, 2010 - 11:15am PT
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"amercan belyars are too stupid to do two ropes at a time and can bearly do one."
Just search "Hot Belayer Magazine" on the taco...
you can see many reasons why two ropes... is a.. uhm.. bad idea for merican climber types...
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Sep 27, 2010 - 11:16am PT
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Some more half rope pics -
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