Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 32 of total 32 in this topic |
Ouch!
climber
|
|
When the Civil War is resolved in about a hundred years, Iraq will be partitioned into 3 countries. Either that or into Kurdistan and Western Iran.
There might be a solution....if Shack, Jody, fattrad, Ramjet, and the rest of the Internet chickenhawks would get off their asses and pick up a musket. That's likely to happen. Yeah Right!
|
|
can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
|
|
Hey Ramjet, sounds like a good idea. Now why don't you go down and enlist and make sure that mission gets accomplished.
Or are you one of those Cheney type of guys who like to hideout in college when your nation needs you?
|
|
TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
|
|
Ouch! Do we have to believe that the country will retain its tribal forms of government. Are we simply just too superior to the Iraqis? Are only we enlightened enough to learn to be tolerant of racial and religious differences? I say we give them a chance.
I wonder how many casualties the French took when they helped us out way way back in the day?
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
Hard to believe people can exist in ignorance of what is unfolding right before their glazed over eyes. Neocons would never admit their Jaysus figure Bush made the most stupefying blunder in the history of the Republic.
|
|
can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
|
|
and you sound like a spoiled little geek.
come on, grow a chin and try not to be too afraid to use that education you're supposedly gettin.
taking very many history classes dude?
|
|
bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
|
|
F*#k Iraq.
Nuke their ass and take their gas!
They took arrr jobbbs!
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
This is for Klaus, super patriot, who surely must be on guard somewhere in Iraq tonight. Keeping the world safe for Tom DeLay and Pat Robertson.
|
|
wildone
climber
right near the beach, boyeee (lord have mercy)
|
|
Nice-Hooray for super patriots!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matt-Thank you.
Rajmit-before you post in a thread, I think you should actually read the first post in it. No, not like, scan it until you know the topic, and then flame like only a punk ass little whiny baby-bitch can, I mean actually read it. Can you refute anything that man, a dyed in the wool, -gnarly- former republican said about shrub jr? No? Didn't think so.
|
|
Tuan DeLusion
Social climber
|
|
Is that picture copyrighted? I don't believe I ever saw a picture quite like that, outside of MIT.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
hey rimjob-
i'd post something about climbing, but since your (self described) boldest fall on gear ever was about 4', i just wanted to try to post something that wouldn't exclude you...
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
|
|
Mr Stelzer's screed appears to be just a list of problems and
complaints. Conspicuos by it's absence is any kind of effective
plan for rectifying said problems. My dad likes to say the village idiot (sorry Locker) can burn down the sh-it house but he can't install indoor plumbing. I'm curios to find out who he does support, but I am heartened to hear he sees through crap spewed forth by the supposed two party situation in which we find ourselves.
Does anybody know what the Democrat party stands for these days, besides the fact that they aren't Republicans? I crossed party (Libertarian) lines to vote for W the last two elections so I might do so again in the future if the Libertarians don't come up with a better national platform than "Legalize Ferrets".
Kerry could've had my vote if he could've told us about his plan before the election, but didn't get it because you can't beat something with nothing. If anyone knows the Democrat plan for the future, I'd be happy to hear it. No fair just saying the Democrats are against Bush, what do they stand FOR? If they want my vote they need to do more than say "vote for us because we aren't Republicans". The Libertarians aren't Republicans either.
When Mr. Stelzer says "tax policies that are an insult to working people" I am curious as to what he thinks would be better. As it is right now, the top 1% of wage earners pay over 34% of total tax revenue. The bottom 50% pay just less than 4% of total revenue. That doesn't leave a whole hell of a lot room for further adjustments. What's your plan, Mr Stelzer? I'm waiting. Hello.
I have never known what is wrong with trade deficits. We have more of their stuff, they have some of our money. I like stuff more than money; I have twelve dollars in my wallet right now, but I have a house full of nice stuff. Currently, I am running quite a trade deficit with my local Liquor Store. I would be mad as hell if I walked in there one day looking for my usual case of Sierra Nevada Blue Label (Porter) and someone decided that because I always buy his Beer, and he never buys my avocados, I can't have anymore S.N. Maybe Mr. Stelzer can explain what is wrong with trade deficits, but I won't be holding my breath.
When he speaks of Social Security, once again I don't see any solutions, just a burning sh-it house. I believe the government ought not be in the retirement business at all, especially one set up like a pyramid-scheme. If you are going to count on the government feeding you, housing you, setting up your retirement account, or moving your sorry butt out of the path of a hurricane, you are going to find yourself hungry, homeless, broke, and treading water. A government big enough to do all those things is big enough to lock all of us away in prison, for our own good. I'll take my chances doing for myself, thank you.
When Mr. Stelzer mentioned President Bush being fired if he was a C.E.O. of a corporation, just thirteen months ago he was up for firing in what is known as an election. Surely Mr. Stelzer must have heard about it, it was in all the papers.
As far as sending Ouch and Rajmit to fight in Iraq I don't think it's such a hot idea. We all want to win this one, right?
Support Our Troops, keep Rajmit home in America.
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
ha ha ha
I for one would rather listen to what
this Stelzer guy has to say than a lot others.
It sounds like he knows what he is talking about.
Rajmit, grow up.
Chaz, if the facts and details that have unfolded
in recent times were known 13 months ago, do you
think Bush would have been re-elected?
And Chaz since it seems that you have a lot of
questions and you let on that you know the answers,
what are they?
Don't you just love know-it-alls.
|
|
TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
|
|
Dear Mr. Stelzer,
The United States of America is not a corporation. If it were, of course, its leaders would base their plans on the next quarter and the next year. There is a reason that civics and corporate finance are taught in different courses.
So pretty much everything you wrote after "Any CEO..." was not supportive of your argument.
Enjoy your retirement.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
|
|
Patrick S.,
I don't claim to have All the answers, at least not popular ones, but because you asked, and I like a challenge, here we go.
Would President Bush have been re-elected knowing then what we know now? As long as Senator Kerry ran the same lackluster, vague, and all over the map campaign, I believe yes. I held my vote until the absolute last hour with a keen eye on the news waiting for a plan for the future from Sen. Kerry. Like it or not, and I thought it was far from perfect, Bush had a plan he could articulate for the future. Sen. Kerry kept his plan a secret. When he did say or do anything, it seemed to contradict what he had said or did previously. That was passed off as "nuance". People are always leery about buying a "pig in a poke".
Another reason Bush got my vote is that I understand the economic benefits of tax reduction. In spite of (or maybe because) Bush's tax cuts, the Treasury rakes in more money than ever before. The reason we have amassed two and a half trillion (trillion with a "T") in additional national debt is because the Republican Congress has been spending money like Democrats, and then some! The fact that Congress can't restrain their impulse to waste copious ammounts of what used to be our money on a bunch of crap it has no business doing burns me to no end. How the Republican Congress is different than the Democrats in this regard is a mystery to me. Republicrats.
The Federal Government should not be spending money on anything not specificaly mentioned in Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. That pretty much limits it's spending to the Military, roads, courts, the Post Office, and the Pattent Office. There should be no need for three trillion dollar anual budgets with five hundred billion dollar anual deficits. Congress should not draft, nor should the President sign, a budget that does anything not specificaly authorized by the Constitution. If the public wants goodies such as public schools, public arts, and parks, the states should handle that. That way we wouldn't have listen to our local politicians complain about only getting sixty-five cents back for every dollar in Federal taxes those of us in California send to Washington.
The pyramid scheme known as Social Security needs to be done away with and soon. The Federal Government has no right whatsoever mandating retirement savings. After paring the Federal Government down to it's Constitutionaly permitted size, there will be a surplus of assets which could be sold off, the proceeds used to re-imburse everyone, dollar for dollar, the money they have paid into Social Security. The people who got into it on the bottom floor of the pyramid, long before we were born, won't like it, but that's what they get for letting the Feds hijack the Constitution back in the days of F.D.R. Guys like me, who caught the ass-end of the baby boom would break even, while people who are Rajmit's age would be better off.
Trade deficits are nothing to worry about, they are only an indication that trade is occuring. How exactly would you ensure that trade equalizes at the border? I can't think of a way to do that that wouldn't do away with the concept of free trade. Free trade is always superior to government controlled trade.
My Iraq exit strategy, for the future, is to give the locals time to install their own freely elected government (an election is scheduled for later this month), wait until Hussein is executed, fold up our tents and go home. What we should have done, in perfect hindsight, is snuff Hussein as soon as he stuck his head up out of the cesspool where we found him. We were free to leave right then and there. We could then have put their next leader, whoever they decide that should be, on notice that he had better watch his ass because we can take him out just like we did Hussein. As long as they have a free press, free elections, respect women's and minority rights they can run their country any way they see fit.
I really should make it over to Ireland sometime Patrick, the pictures I have seen are beautiful. I hear if you like dark beer and salmon, which I do, it's almost heaven.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
My dad likes to say the village idiot (sorry Locker) can burn down the sh-it house but he can't install indoor plumbing.
Sounds like W's Iraq policy, doesn't it?
|
|
Hootervillian
climber
Hooterville
|
|
There should be no need for three trillion dollar anual budgets with five hundred billion dollar anual deficits. Congress should not draft, nor should the President sign, a budget that does anything not specificaly authorized by the Constitution
Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution- a tidbit.
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
I'm wondering if the default BushCo. plan that you voted for twice violated Article 1, Section 8.
I'm with you on the GoodCop/BadCop fallacy but the context of these events point in another direction entirely.
Once again a wonderful story but completely out of context.
wait until Hussein is executed, fold up our tents and go home
Do you truly believe that all of this is about Liberty? Nothing to do about the Afghani, and other pipelines and the world's second largest reserves besides Saudi? you know the Saudi's, one of the many other allies that violate your Liberty creedo...
As long as they have a free press, free elections, respect women's and minority rights they can run their country any way they see fit.
Championing Liberty is righteous and inspiring, for sure, just like a deux ex machina should be.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
|
|
Hootervillian,
Check it out, the Appropriation of Money is what needs to be renewed at least every two years, otherwise we would have only had an army from 1788 to 1790.
Maybe Operation Iraqi Freedom is all about oil pipelines and the like, and not about Iraqi Freedom. As long as the Iraqi people come out of it having secured their self-determination and their deliverance from tyrants, I'm OK with it. If the right thing is done for the wrong reason, it's still the right thing.
|
|
Hootervillian
climber
Hooterville
|
|
I'm with that DMT, but let's not limit it to Conservative Republicans. Just about everyone of them has got to go, and most deserve alot of jail time, across party lines.
Murdering alot of randoms to preserve Petrodollar hedgemony is a multi-national corporate position, not one of 'Nations and Nationalities'.
The Constitution, needs rewritten, man can't wear a boys pants SClemens, and let's throw out the part where the .inc gets 'Constitutional Rights' and then some... oh wait a minute that part doesn't exist. What gives? Who's in charge here?
Chaz, me and you ain't that far away, and is the road to BM still open?
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
|
|
Mr. Milktoast,
You wrote "congressional democrats voted to authorize Bush to go to war". That is another topic that really irritates me; Congress "delegating" away it's authority. The Constitution grants Congress the power "To declare War". If Congress thinks it's powers are best handled by the President, let them ammend the Constitution to reflect that. Ammending the Constitution takes substantialy more than a simple majority vote of Congress.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
|
|
Hootervillian,
I must have missed something, or maybe I'm just dense. Where is BM? Clue me in and I'll check the road conditions.
|
|
Hootervillian
climber
Hooterville
|
|
i bouldered with a guy named Chaz at Black Mountain a year ago or so, thought it was you. No?
|
|
Gnat
climber
Smell A
|
|
Depends on whether you want to top out or just bail.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
|
|
Oh I get it. Black Mountain=BM duh.
No it wasn't me Hootervillian. I haven't been there for a couple of years. The last time I was there the road was closed so we hiked the BM trail to get there through the snow. That road does close right about now every year, snow or no snow.
My name's not really Chaz, it's Dave, but Dave was already taken on this forum so now I'm Chaz. The girl who gave me this computer has a psycho ex-boyfriend named David and she won't even say the word. So she calls me Chaz. I needed an alias anyway.
|
|
Hootervillian
climber
Hooterville
|
|
i think you meant 'top off' or just bail.
Let's just call it what it is shall we.
as a 'content' people we let multi-national corporate cartel interests strap all of our welfares to a finite resource. After we wipe the Wal-Mart out of our eyes, any 'synergy' we have as a people is lost in the non-combustable minutia of the body politic and the fear driven insecurities industries.
Choices? Define ourself's as the chosen ones and make it sound righteous?
Finally give into 'right' action and suffer the consequences of 'believing' the end justifies the means for so long?
It's been said time and time again, a billion in resources daily could put us on a path of renewable hope in a very short period of time. I believe that, it's what keeps me going.
Or not, keep preparing to be the 'last man standing' sounds like alot of fun. or maybe alot of you got tickets out of here? maybe i should have Fandango'ed.
BTW. the W of MD that SH was gonna use was the Euro, not the powdery sh#t we sold'em.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
It's the waffling middle ground of "going in light and fast" that Rumsfeld chose that is absolutely killing us in Iraq. The principal failing of this strategy was our inability to secure the weapons depots and caches and we continue to pay dearly for that mistake on a daily basis.
There are only two solutions - go big or get out. The latter is obvious and admits completely the stupidity of our initial action and reassures China that we as people lack resolve and willingness to sacrifice to follow through with our decisions effectively, regardless of the soundness of the initial decision to action.
Going how big?
Double our troop strength on the ground and triple the material resources to support them (particularly personal armor and armored vehicles of all types). What would this allow?
 Securing the Syrian and Iranian borders.
Training and equipping of Iraqi military and security forces.
Effective security support of reconstruction efforts.
Effective security support of supply lines.
How should this be done?
Secure the borders with US troops.
Protect Iraqi military and security recruits from the moment they show an interest in serving until the moment they are trained, armored, and armed and serving in mixed US/Iraqi military or security units.
Only train Iraqis in mixed Kurd/Sunni/Shiite units. Have the Iraqi government, Kurds, Sunnis, and/or Shiites conscript if necessary.
As Iraqis are trained deploy them in mixed US/Iraq units upping the percentage of Iraqis are they become available.
Armor both US and Iraqi units and either armor their vehicles or replace them with ones that are.
Replace local militia-based security forces with mixed US/Iraqi units as quickly as possible.
Protect reconstruction projects with overwhelming security.
Re-bid all reconstruction projects and allow EU, Russian, and Chinese companies to bid with the proviso that to bid you must also commit an amount equal to some percentage of the total contract won in dollars, manpower, or material to the effort to protect, train, and equip Iraqi military and security forces.
Institute rigorous auditing on all reconstruction funding.
Will such a course put us at further risk of terrorism on US soil?
Yes, and would further necessitate us to actually implement homeland security in our nation at the same time which would require:
Securing all ports.
Securing sea and air cargo.
Define first responder communications with a national protocol coordinated with military communications and do it in 6 months.
Supply and replace all first responder communications gear necessary for 100% compliance to new standards within 18 months of new standard availability.
Install radiological monitoring coverage for sea and air lanes and require strict adherance to those lanes.
Double the Coast Guard's material resources to police and secure approaching sea lanes in a tiered fashion.
Quadruple border personnel and material resources.
Institute some form of guest worker program along with a path to immigration and citizenship that can plausibly be attained by anyone willing to work for it.
Would this be incredibly expensive and burdensome on the American people and or society?
Absolutely! And it would be incredibly expensive, require reinstating the draft, and us all to contribute and alter our lifestyles. But we started this travesty and we're in it, like it or not. Failing to show resolve, sacrifice, and willingness to follow-through regardless of the outcome is a serious strategic mistake sending entirely the wrong message to the world. At this point a good-faith effort to both do the job as "right" in Iraq and protect ourselves at home is the only viable solution for getting through this fiasco. Both getting out and "staying the course" are disasterous courses with long-term strategic consequences for our Nation.
What will actually happen?
Republicans will bug out as quickly as possible in advance of the 2008 election after getting a serious "shot across the bow" in the 2006 election that support for the war is eroding very fast among in the Republican base, particularly in the South (those newly minted Republicans are fickle lot, aren't they).
What should we do after that?
Keep our own sh#t together, show a wit of sensitivity, realize we have to get along in the world, and finally acknowledge that terrorism, poverty, and oppression are inextricably linked. That when we actively and directly support oppression and poverty we support terrorism.
Rebuild the Guard and Reserves, equipping them no differently than active duty units.
Build a real national and state disaster/WMD response capability where none exists now.
Explicitly outlaw rendition and torture.
Double the budget for securing and decommissioning ex-Soviet nukes and chemical weapons.
Ratify all protocols of the Geneva Convention.
Re-constitute our now completely lapsed public health systems that once beat smallpox, polio, and TB - toolup for flu pandemics and biological attacks this time around.
Sign Kyoto, the Land Mine and Chemical Weapons Treaties.
Replace half of our Navy with more appropriate platforms and and with multi-mission, support ships capable of delivering humanitarian assistance where necessary.
Recognize the World Court.
Protect our food supply.
Rebuild human versus electronic intelligence around the world.
Rebuild our ability to effectively translate foreign intelligence.
Lead with our brains and not with our dicks.
|
|
Hootervillian
climber
Hooterville
|
|
i'd rather go for after that rule #13 first before we 'go big' to save face with our owners. after that, rules #1-12 sound good.
What will actually happen?
Republicans will bug out as quickly as possible in advance of the 2008 election after getting a serious "shot across the bow" in the 2006 election that support for the war is eroding very fast among in the Republican base, particularly in the South (those newly minted Republicans are fickle lot, aren't they).
seriously? awful lot of investment to walk away from for something as malleable and avoidable as public opinion.
me thinks we are rolling around to another 'Shock' therapy treatment.
|
|
Hootervillian
climber
Hooterville
|
|
Fattrad is exactly right. Going big means going bigger, and FT don't just stop with the S's.
Anyone really prepared for how that scenario ends?
Ed. and FT, awful tough love for Murtha from your boy. the things one must do to get elected.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Fattrad,
The Syrians are irrevalent, they simply need to be controlled. The Saudis are another matter, aside from imposing a settlement on the Israelis which would solve many of the Syrian and other problems, the Saudi problem we and the Brits created for ourselves is a big hassle on the penninsula. Saudi Arabia, along with accompanying smaller gulf states, is probably the one place that should have been permanently colonized and run by foreign powers with the population treated fairly and equitably in the process. Had we done that and slowly established the foundation for a democracy in the time since WWI then we wouldn't have the place overrun by zealous clerics and they wouldn't have a ready audience. The propping up of one tribe and a monarchy for all these years has been a disaster spawned of nothing but avarice, greed, and laziness. Puppetry always comes at a price eventually and inspite of playing it out badly on four contintents again and again for a century we don't seem able to learn that lesson.
There are no great solutions to the Saudi problem - "going in" is about a stupid a response as can be imagined. Why is it that you righties always gravitate to what looks like the "easy" military solution to every problem while genetically shying away from real diplomatic problems like North Korea and Iran? That thinking is exactly how we got into this mess - it's more thinking with our dicks. If you want to take on the entire Middle East and do it "right" then you better be prepared to abandon and/or rebuild more cities than New Orleans, wait in gas lines, see our economy tank, and generally live through complete hell in the US because that's what you're going to get. It would be yet another unnecessary distraction that would have the Chinese positively salivating over the all too predictable outcome...
|
|
Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
|
|
The Federal Government should not be spending money on anything not specificaly mentioned in Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. That pretty much limits it's spending to the Military, roads, courts, the Post Office, and the Pattent Office.
Dude, you lost this argument over a hundred years ago. Give it up. The supreme court says you're full of crap. So move on already.
|
|
tomtom
climber
Seattle, Wa
|
|
I retired in 1976 as a senior executive of General Motors, with responsibility for more than 35,000 employees,
Apparently, the writer is the corporate equivalent of W. By the mid 70's, GM was heading to the toilet as a company making crappy cars. The effects of their mismanagement are the reason that most folks would rather buy Japanese or European.
Pot ... kettle ... black.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
|
|
Tomtom,
Thaks for pointing out that Stelzer guy was a "senior executive of General Motors". I totaly missed that the first time I read his manifesto. I knew there was something about that guy that left a bad taste in my mouth.
In 1974, my mother, having just divorced my father, bought a new '74 Chevy Malibu Classic reasoning being a single mother a reliable car was criticaly important. The car was in the shop with one problem after another before the odometer even read 20,000 miles. To make matters worse, the dealer made her feel as if the problems were her fault.
She replaced the Chevy with a Toyota Celica and the difference was night and day. That Toyota was 100% reliable for more than 350,000 miles and is probably still on the road today.
The way I see things, General Motors still owes my mother what she paid for, a new car, with all the expectation of reliability that goes along with it. That Stelzer clown was in charge of things there when all this is happening. I have one question for Stelzer: Dude, where's my car?
If I live to be 100 and drive to my last day, I will never, ever, take a chance buying another American made car.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 32 of total 32 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!