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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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Pete has gone one step further on a few of his solos and had it set up so that when he raps one rope a haul bag comes up on another rope. Maybe that's the part Lambone doesn't like. It's easily safetied with the slippery knot though.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 25, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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Excellent video, Mark - thanks for explaining this part of the system so well.
Notes:
 What Mark demonstrates is merely one component of the Continuous Loop system, most specifically using the Solo Tag Rack. This is where you hang a rack of gear off a fifi in the middle of the pitch so you don't have to carry all your rack with you, and it allows you to pull it up when you need more gear
Continuous Loop does not have to have the solo tagging system that Mark illustrates in his video. It simply means that there is a continuous loop of Lower Anchor - Lead Rope - Climber belay device - BACKUP KNOT - end of lead rope - top end of haul line - bottom end of haul line - Lower Anchor
EDIT - I see John Mac just explained all that above
Mark's system adds the Solo Tag Rack between the end of the lead and the top of the haul line
My Wall Doctor, Chongo, taught me how to do the solo tagging
Solo tagging is EXTREMELY dangerous because there is always the possibility of taking a whipper, and knocking your tag rack off the fifi, and having another fifty pounds or more of gear falling with you and possibly being caught by you! It is not for the faint of heart, nor the mechanically disinclined. Experts only, practise this one at home first, kiddies or you could end up dead.
So far as I am aware, the series of slippery overhand knots is my invention, designed to [in theory] back up the Solo Tag Rack should the catastrophic fall occur that knocks the fifi off the hook. Since this is untested, at least by me, it may still be Big Wall Theory
I don't tie as many slippery overhand knots as Mark - sheesh.
One big wall master who I believe uses the system is Wally Barker. Many others reject it because they don't like it
The solo tagging is ideal on moderate aid. You don't need to bother on easy aid because you can carry everything you need on your body comfortably. It becomes progressively more dangerous as the pitch gets harder. You don't want to be tagging, for instance, in the middle of an A4 hooking traverse. You want to time your tags, for sure
I used this system on eight solo ascents of El Cap, some of them hard, and I consider it to be the Better Way. But this comes with the caveat that the Better Way is whatever works best for you. Many other big wall soloists, who solo hard routes, do knott use it, as Matt notes above
On really hard sections, you may find yourself building a vertical anchor of consecutive sliding-X knots, until you get a bomber enough mid-pitch anchor you are happy to haul to and leave your rack dangling from
Double tagging is a system whereby as you rap the pitch, you pull up a pig weighing about 50-60% of your body weight "for free". I tried this on my solo of Native Son, but rejected it as overly complex. This is because it requires a separate rope to operate, and quite frankly I was terrified of the thought of a hundred pounds sitting on a hook at the anchor. This was before I invented the slippery overhand backup, which might make the system a bit less terrifying. Double tagging will only work on steep pitches where the piglet won't hang up as you rap down, and would probably be a lot easier with a skinnier cord attached to you. When I tried I had a regular thickness haul line
I'd love to see someone go out and try double tagging with the slippery overhand knot backup, and see if they liked it or not. Hauling a hundred pounds for free is not a benefit to be sneezed at
EDIT for further caveats:
Especially on traversing sections, the full length of the lead rope can come whizzing out of the rope bag, suddenly and catastrophically loading your solo tag rack fifi in the WRONG direction. Hence there is merit to having a very heavy load on it [see below] and also to tying a whole bunch of slippery overhand knots like Mark does, maybe they won't all pull out? It is rather disconcerting to see on the Knifeblade Traverse of Iron Hawk, for instance, all of your lead rope suddenly come whipping out of the bag, and go WUMP on the wrong end of your fifi! [This was my first solo, long before I invented the slippery overhand backup knot in this application]
There is extra risk of dangling rope blowing horizontally and catching on a flake horizontally from you. [Voice of Dirty Harry: "Whatcha gonna do now, PUNK?"]
The other main caveat, and something every soloist who uses this system is certain to do sooner or later, is to mistie his slippery overhand backup knot THRU the carabiner gate, instead of AROUND the carabiner gate. GET IT??? What this means is that you pull up your lead rope to tag, the slippery knot pulls through, but you blew it and opened the gate of the carabiner when you tied it, so when you go to pull the tag rack up, the tag rack jams in the carabiner - DUH
The way I have successfully avoided this mistake is to have dedicated carabiners for this purpose, which are "Mexican lockers" i have made up ahead of time - regular wide-gate crabs whose gates have been duct taped shut. [Always remember to leave a tail, eh?] You clip these dedicated "slippery overhand backup knot crabs" into another crab, and then when you tie the slippery overhand chain, there is NO WAY that you can accidentally put the rope THROUGH the carabiner, rather [because the crab was Mexicanized] you are there obligated to tie the knot AROUND the backup crab. GET IT??
Thanks again for the video, Mark, and most especially for the coffee I just opened! Too funny! I might need to post up some photos.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Aug 25, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
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Nice Mark and thanks pete for the clarifications. I think the so called slippery knot has been around for many years and is often used to compress long electrical chords and such into a more managable and friendly size. However this might be the first solo Climbing use of the thing... in any event.. good stuff guys!!
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Aug 25, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
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Yer "slippery knot" is just a crochet loop.
It still works, though.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 25, 2010 - 07:24pm PT
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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My system was what Joe shows above except eliminating the haul bag on the left. If you follow it and understand it, it's quite elegant and safe.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 25, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
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Mark, that's Pete's drawing of a couple of years ago...
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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I know that. "The diagram of Pete's that Joe posted above"...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 25, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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Cool, just didn't want anyone thinking it was mine, I'm not that clever, or complicated...
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Prod
Trad climber
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Aug 25, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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If you fall couldn't that untie your slippery knot? Then pull the tag bag onto you? Or am I missing something?
Why not just run a light tag line for the tag bag and Haul line?
Prod.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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Prod,
If you've just "tagged" and the bag is right next to you, your Gri-gri is on the part of the rope that runs past the bag and down to the anchor. If you have a 60 meter rope (197 feet but let's call it 200) and are 100 feet above the anchor there is 100 feet of rope in the rope bag attached to the Tag Bag. The far end of the rope comes out of the rope bag and is tied into a stout piece via the Slippery Knot.
Let's say you were five feet above where your tag bag is hanging and you simply blow it and fall out of your steps. The Gri-gri holds you on the rope running down 100 feet to the anchor, you'll probably fall below the Tag Bag and on the way down you'll pull a bit of the rope out of the rope bag. You certainly won't pull all 100 feet of rope out of it!
And BTW, you really have to kick the sh#t out of a bag hanging on a fifi for it to fall off it's anchor.
Of course, if you rip the piece the Tag Bag is hanging from, then you are in for a world of hurt. On Grape Race./Tribal Rite, I always hung the tag bag from something real solid.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 25, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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and having another fifty pounds or more of gear falling with you
That seems a bit excessive doesn't it? Even for you Pete.
What the heck are you tagging?..wait let me guess...
All the iron, bolt kit, all the big cams, cheater stick, the hammer,
the heads, all the belay set up and hauling rig,
xtra biners, sunscreen, jacket, beer, snacks, half gallon of water and a 2 foot bong.
pretty close? ;)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 25, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
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No bong as I don't smoke, extra wine and canned food. Sometimes a colour TV set and microwave. I've taken thirty-pound pin racks on the wall lots of times on hard nailing routes. Extra water. Easily fifty pounds. I need a bloody hauling device to pull up my solo tag rack - seriously! I used to sometimes haul it off the titanium ring on the aid-tree of my Russian Aider setup, and I bent the circular rings into ovals by hauling my tag rack off of it. Sheesh.
Evidently I invented the slippery overhand knot backup to the fifi after my drawing was revised in 2003.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Aug 25, 2010 - 11:21pm PT
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Gene,
Thanks for pointing out my omission of the back up knot. Very important. Most of the time I actually have two backup knots.
Good discussion.
Cheers
John
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 25, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
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What's bad about it? Do you know what they are worried about, Lambone?
Primary concerns were noted as obviously the bag coming unleashed from the anchor point for any number of reasons...primarily in a fall.
Also the tag line getting tangled around your "continuous" loop line slack, or caught on a flake in the wind.
Maybe Mike can elaborate his concerns better. All i remember is each one of them saying when they tried it they ended up screwed halfway up a pitch.
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Aug 25, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
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Great video Mark, I like the slippery knot safety but it does make you have to tag your rack at least 1/2 way through a pitch correct? Once you tag up your extra gear don't you have the issue of the 100 feet of haul line pulling the rest of the haul rope out of the bag?
I like and have used the continuous loop method but it does have some drawbacks. The wind whip is one, which seems to happen at the most unfortunate times. Like when you are too far out to hear the whiz of 200 feet of rope leaving your rope bag and about to shock load your belay loop as you are top stepping off a sketch placement. I suppose if you are tagging then that would only shockload the hook right? Then of course when that monster loop gets caught on the flake 150 feet below you forcing you to rap off some sketchness. Besides that it's great.
Doubletagging...now there is another thinking mans technique....although it always felt like Russian Roulette to me. Of course I was doing it with my full haul bag, linking pitches I had climbed with a partner without trouble. Climbing out the Ear with my haul line stretched tight (loop under my haulbag I found out) whimpering like a schoolgirl. Somehow the saved effort didn't feel like it was worth it at the time.
Maybe this is crazy thinking, but I wonder if some slippery knots in your lead line could act as a shock absorber when climbing right off an anchor. Of course you may be increasing the size of a factor 2 you might be able to take.....
Dammit....your TR and this post have started the solo buzz in my head again, just when I thought I had put it to sleep.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 25, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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Edit to my post above - three important caveats added! Thanks Matt, Mark and Kevster.
Please read above new caveats and comment.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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The technique has it's problems but it's benefits far out weigh them, IMHO. In 24 pitches of Grape Race/Tribal Rite, the tag bag system screwed up twice. Once because of wind and once the tag line/ tag line extension knot became stuck in the rope bag. Other than that it worked beautifully. I'll continue to use it.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 26, 2010 - 12:26am PT
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Thought for sure you might have made my "classic" mistake of mistying the backup knot, or maybe I warned you in advance, or you practised the thing so damn much. Another benefit of the Mexicanized crab is that there is NO way the rope can somehow autoclip itself as you undo the knot...
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Aug 26, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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cool tutorial...
simple and elegant
Thanks Mark
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