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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Aug 19, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
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would you put a biner on your rack that is not appropriate in some situations?
no.
so why would you put a sling on your rack that is not appropriate in some situations?
then any discussion about whether or not the stuff is as good or superior in some other application goes away.
when you are dehydrated, tired, maxed, and it's dark, and starting to rain, you don't need to be thinking about how to tie a knot, it should be so perfectly mastered that it is perfect every time, and by the same token, you don't want to have the need to discern between slings when setting up an anchor in the same conditions.
as for anytendancy to pick out a single purveyor of the stuff, that makes no sense. there are just two sources of the fiber, and four mills produce most of the web.
and, if you want a good scare??
put any web, nylon 1 inch, dyneema or whatever in between two trailer hitches and roll the cars or trucks apart a bit, then just touch a blade to it,
GONE!
where you can do so, tie in with your cord.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 19, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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HT,
agree with all of your "engineering" speak on materials.
I would not use Dyneema without being sure other parts of the system will be absorbing the fall energy.
i would just point out that the word dyneema in this statement could be substituted with all other sling/attachement materials in use today....e.g. nylon, aluminim biner's etc....
i have first hand knowledge of falling a short distance onto a nylon runner, don't do it it hurts like hell. in other words, it won't absorb much.
like many of our tools, there are selective uses for dyneema where it's properties are desireable, (weight). i for one like to have some tied 9/16" as these are easier to deal with when having to leave bail slings. but if you are really worried you can go back to all 1" tubular nylon....
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utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
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Aug 19, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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DYNACLIPs? still NA in USA?
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Aug 19, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
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The BD belay loops are sewn the way I said. Why if I have a concern with a product I'm bashing? Because your "concerns" are simply fear mongering based on unscientific observations. You were proven wrong before so your credibility in this situation has been lowered
I will not be using a sling that can break, sorry that's my deal, regular slings are bomber. I saw no label or warnings before I used them, been out of the loop. We use tons of tech cord in rigging, just not for climbing.
No. All climbing equipment will break if used improperly. Ropes will cut when loaded over an edge. Carabiners will break when the gate is open. Belay loops will fail when heavily worn.
Taking a factor 2 fall onto a static piece of climbing gear will break either you or it.
I really fear for your clients if you are this uninformed.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Aug 19, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
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Then too, they're not 100% dyneema, just the white strands.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Aug 19, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
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Agree with Mike. Not very durable.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Aug 19, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
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Nylon Bro..
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Aug 19, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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Coz Wrote
Handsome b, BD troll ru???? No, I don't work for Black Diamond. I climb on some of their gear because it is good, but some of it sucks.
Fear mongering, ask Tom Jones about the belay loop, he design it for BD. It is weaker fact dude, he thinks it protects the stiching. It sounds like he knows what he is talking about, I am sure he has an engineering degree and the resources to test his handiwork. I am sure a team of other engineers tests his work as well as the commissions that certify climbing gear both in the US and Europe
I like the tac going through all way through. It's stronger anyone knows this it's common knowledge. Sounds right to me. I climb on aluminum carabiners. Do you climb on steel carabiners because they are stronger?
I was handed a bunch of sling and saw no warning or had any idea they where dyneema
I think for myself I think it's dangerous to have tec slings! Period
My clinets do not use them, I keep it simple. This is what freaks me out. If you can't tell the difference between nylon and dyneema (BD uses Dynex) then how can you tell the difference between a static and dynamic rope?
If you were given a rope without markings could you safely use it?
You seem dangerously misinformed about the basic properties of climbing gear.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Aug 20, 2010 - 11:53am PT
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coz,
Do I work for BD? No.
Do you make up ways of bashing them and calling them out because you have past experience that colors your judgement. Yes. I see the anger every time you write about BD. Does your agenda leak through your poor arguments and statements? Yes
Erik
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Aug 20, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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Locker has it right, again.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Aug 20, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
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My brain says nylon, but my legs and arms say lightweight!
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utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
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Aug 20, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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The truly amazing thing is that DMM would do the test, produce and publish the results, and continue to manufacture slings using dyneema.
Could it be they assume climbers are being smart enough to read instructions and use products as intended? Problem is we aren't always that smart and the instruction sheets are in so many languages that it is near to impossible to find the part written in English. Often climbers get hand-me-downs from a mentor without the instructions and the mentor didn't read them or use the product as intended anyways.
If you see someone doing something like climbing above an anchor on dyneema or using it in some other dangerous fashion, why not teach them about the principles behind the thing on the spot in person?
Most of the climbers I see out and about: learned how to do something once from someone and have never given what they were taught a second thought, don't peruse the internet looking for tips and tricks, have never read a climbing how-to book, and are just plain uninformed... so help them out with some info where they can get it... at your local crag.
I have received great counsel this way... also some not-so-great
:-)
jb
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Aug 20, 2010 - 05:53pm PT
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So apparently it is now ok to climb above your nylon sling anchor and lob off anytime you want. I mean...it's only 12-15kn hitting you. No big deal.
What the...?!
Just don't do it with Dyneema...because it might break...right after you crap out your lower intestine.
Jeez. Same principles apply on any kind of static material. You are screwed either way. The idea that a dyneema anchor is les safe is based on ignorance and/or a poor understanding of basic safe rockcraft.
Period.
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utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
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Aug 20, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
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So apparently it is now ok to climb above your nylon sling anchor and lob off anytime you want. I mean...it's only 12-15kn hitting you. No big deal.
Good point... shoulda said anything static :-)
Maybe even don't climb above the anchor until you are starting the next pitch and belayed on the climbing rope...
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 20, 2010 - 06:21pm PT
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Maybe Russ will make up some swedged cable PASes. That way you'd be sure to kill yourself in a fall before they broke.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Aug 20, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
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Ok, serious question (not trolling). Are there any reports of someone clipped into an anchor with standard length slings and managing to break them in a static fall back onto the anchor?
An attached weight (like the lab test) is not going to behave like a human body in a harness. I rather suspect many more lives good be saved if climbers only clipped into anchors using dyneema slings, but always wore helmets when climbing...
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 20, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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The human pelvis generally can withstand up to 12 KN of force. For MRA testing purposes, a force of 15 KN force on an anchor exceeds safety parameters, and implies a force of 7 - 12 KN on the human component if the load is directed through a pulley/biner.
I am not signing up for a factor 2 fall on anything "static" unless I am totalled screwed/out of gear.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Aug 20, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
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Isn't understanding the limitations of various pieces of equipment an important part of basic safe rockcraft?
Yes.
As is being able to rationally assess and work within those limitations... which is where some people seem to be falling short. That's my point.
For the record...I have no connection to BD. None.
There is no reason to stop using Dyneema materials based on the tests provided by DMM. If you put yourself in a situation where you are taking factor 1 or 2 falls directly onto your anchor...you screwed up...and life will suck BADLY no matter what material your anchor is built out of. The idea that nylon "doesn't break" is silly. The idea that it's not OK to fall onto a dyneema sling and yet STILL ok or somehow appreciably safer to fall on a nylon sling is...well...also silly. Both are failures of technique and systems before you ever get to the point of actual material failure. To freak out and cut up your dyneema slings after seeing these tests is a failure to understand, rationally assess, and apply basic knowledge.
However...to do so simply because it makes you feel safer...go right ahead...do what you gotta do. Just no need to run through the streets screaming like a loon.
Peace.
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utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
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Aug 20, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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Those of you who use a Purcell, do you use it exclusively? Hanging belay included?
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