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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 6, 2010 - 01:38am PT
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Arnold wants to reduce the state workers minimum wage to $7.25 an hour.
Court OK's Reduction proposal
I know it is hard to keep your two-party sectarianism out of this issue, but please try to look beyond the reaction. This hurts all of us, on both sides.
Discuss.
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jstan
climber
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The last report I saw was from the State Comptroller saying the wages could not be reduced because the state's payroll computer could not do it. No more information than that.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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that's not a bad living wage, dude.
just sayin'....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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they've been doing this every year for a while, then they pass a budget and the real wage is retroactive. Makes Ahnold feel Butch.
$7.25 isn't even a living wage in Camp 4....
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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If the State Controller signs his name on a check when he knows damn well there are insufficient funds to cover it, he needs to go to The Joint for a few years, the same as you or I would.
If he issues thousands of bad checks, perhaps a life term would be appropriate.
The State needs to learn to live within it's means, the same as you and I do.
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chellam
Trad climber
coimbatore,tamilnadu
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Not in our lifetime. Batteries can not store as much energy as gasoline in terms of space and weight. A full tank of fuel for my truck weighs 210 pounds and is good for about 450 miles. A bank of batteries capable of moving the same truck that distance would weigh 1500 pounds and fill most of the bed. Until battery technology drastically changes electric cars will be limited to local commuting.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Are the people getting "entitlements" getting their checks reduced too?
If they are......
Look for riots in East LA and Watts!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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The state workers I know are honest people caught in the middle of a crossfire between two sides that care more for ideological purity than for the welfare of the State of California. While AFSCME and SEIU certainly have some culpability in the budget mess, I don't see the state workers as any more or less of the problem than all of the rest of us.
Until we Californians can propose something different from "cut someone else's programs and raise someone else's taxes," we won't solve this mess. That means we need to look carefully, honestly and mercilessly at every item of spending and every tax (and tax break) to see if it is worth it. I personally believe that our extra-long prison sentences for drug crimes aren't worth the cost, as an example. I also question why we give tax breaks to any particular business (e.g., the motion picture industry, "green" technology, etc.)
We also need to look at how we spend our money for particular services, e.g. education. Do we really need as much administration as we currently have, and are we smart imposing one-size-fits-all from Sacramento?
Finally, we need a rational property tax that pays for absolutely essential local services such as education, fire and police, whose demand does not vary with the economy. I'm not sure how we do that. I know the arguments for the split roll, but that hardly ameliorates the unfairness of disparate tax bills depending upon when property was acquired. Throwing out Prop 13 (for which I voted, mea culpa), though, would kick untold numbers of people on fixed incomes out of their homes.
Tough problems, and no simple solutions. And yes, I voted for Arnold, and would do so again, given the same options available.
John
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Good ideas John
Prop 13 has become a sacred cow but it is also the root of the problem. I suggest revoking Prop 13 for businesses. Perhaps for individual dwellings, it could be grandfathered but bumped up a bit when the old owners die but pass the property off to kids. The problem is that Businesses never "die" but often have made separate corporations out of their property so the tax savings get passed on even if they sell the property to a different corporation. You can have two identical corporate properties, side by side and one pays vastly more. Ain't fair and hurts the state
Peace
karl
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dirtbag
climber
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The state workers I know are honest people caught in the middle of a crossfire between two sides that care more for ideological purity than for the welfare of the State of California. While AFSCME and SEIU certainly have some culpability in the budget mess, I don't see the state workers as any more or less of the problem than all of the rest of us.
Until we Californians can propose something different from "cut someone else's programs and raise someone else's taxes," we won't solve this mess. That means we need to look carefully, honestly and mercilessly at every item of spending and every tax (and tax break) to see if it is worth it. I personally believe that our extra-long prison sentences for drug crimes aren't worth the cost, as an example. I also question why we give tax breaks to any particular business (e.g., the motion picture industry, "green" technology, etc.)
We also need to look at how we spend our money for particular services, e.g. education. Do we really need as much administration as we currently have, and are we smart imposing one-size-fits-all from Sacramento?
Finally, we need a rational property tax that pays for absolutely essential local services such as education, fire and police, whose demand does not vary with the economy. I'm not sure how we do that. I know the arguments for the split roll, but that hardly ameliorates the unfairness of disparate tax bills depending upon when property was acquired. Throwing out Prop 13 (for which I voted, mea culpa), though, would kick untold numbers of people on fixed incomes out of their homes.
Tough problems, and no simple solutions. And yes, I voted for Arnold, and would do so again, given the same options available.
Damn John, great post.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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"that's not a bad living wage, dude."
Do the math Blue.
That ain't a living wage...
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dirtbag
climber
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Especially in California.
It's a slap in the face.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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I'd quit and find a different job if I were dis-respected like that.
Even the greeter at WalMart makes more than minimum wage.
I'll bet not one state employee quits as a result of this though. They've had all their self-respect beaten out of them apparently.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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The problem with a state like Cali is the "cradle-to-grave' Nanny-Statist approach to things. The people really need to consider electing some serious CPA types to the legislature and start cutting back on "non-essential" spending. Just how many "middle manager" types are really needed to be "administrating" things. How many services are really "essential?"
Folks here might ask how essential is Miles Standish up at CRSP, and the actual answer would piss off most people: he generates NON TAX REVENUE for the State of California. That's why we always have lots more "law enforcement" than we really seem to need. (See the thread by Clint!)
How is it that anytime the voters actually DO something by the initiative process, the Socialist Justices of the Supreme Court always nullify it. Answer: get a Governator that isn't a closet Socialist to appoint some better judicial minds.
By now you're all asking "what's a dumb hick from Wyoming doing commenting on our 'progressive' state of Cali?" Answer: I lived in Santa Cruz until 1976 and saw Cali politics first hand for 6 years while I lived there.
There seems to be a State Department of Everything. You name it, and the State seems to have an interest in it.
End of Diatribe!
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Did you vote for a grade "B" movie star as Governeator or not? Who did you vote for. Post up, admit it. Be Honest for once. The Terminator got a large slice of the popular vote. If you voted for him, you got what you asked for. "Hurray Democracy".
As if we had voted for the "other guy" things would somehow be magically better?
I voted to recall Davis, and I still stand by that decision. For his replacement, it was hard not to vote for the porn star, but I actually voted for the green candidate.
I don't see that the Terminator has been any worse than any of the others. Cali's political system is very dysfunctional. One politician can not turn it around. Especially with the 2/3 supermajority to raise taxes/pass a budget and all the ballot measures that fix most of the spending. And republicans whose entire vocabulary seems to be no. The state's constitution needs rewriting.
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apogee
climber
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"that's not a bad living wage, dude."
bluering, your ideologic ignorance is showing again.
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dirtbag
climber
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I don't see that the Terminator has been any worse than any of the others. Cali's political system is very dysfunctional. One politician can not turn it around. Especially with the 2/3 supermajority to raise taxes/pass a budget and all the ballot measures that fix most of the spending. And republicans whose entire vocabulary seems to be no. The state's constitution needs rewriting.
word
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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bluering said that's not a bad living wage, dude.
That's $15,000 a year full time. That's not a bad living wage for someone living at their parent's house, maybe.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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The main proble with "raising taxes" is the political pressure from all the special interest groups to give THEM more of the benefits. As long as there are politicians, the problems remain.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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quote: "Throwing out Prop 13 (for which I voted, mea culpa), though, would kick untold numbers of people on fixed incomes out of their homes."
No it wouldn't.
That is the myth of prop 13.
They can either get a roommate, a reverse mortgage or a loan from their heirs, or buck up just like ordinary taxpayers elsewhere who don't have special loopholes.
Or maybe they would like to move now, but have held onto that old house just because of the warping incentive of the tax loophole.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Bouncing a check for $250 or more in Nevada is considered a felony. Not sure if it will get you jail time but it is still a felony.
take care
dave
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dirtbag
climber
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And, the 2/3 vote and a governors veto is the only thing preventing the ultra-liberal Dems in Calif from handing out birth to grave silver spoon benefits.
Wrong Fatty, the voters do. They have the ultimate say. If they don't like extra taxes being imposed they can vote the bastards out. We don't need no stinking 2/3 vote/minority rule check.
(And yes, I believe in sensible and non-gerrymandered districts being established.)
We require simple majorities for just about everything, including life and death policies. Yet budget decisions are extra special. Go figure.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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It's another piece of evidence for my theory that bit by bit we are losing the capacity for self-governance.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Our laws are nuts. Was just looking through the bad check laws posted at
http://www.ckfraud.org/penalties.html
It's super rare for a state's penalty for passing bad checks to be more than a $1000 fine but plenty of them can give you 5 or 10 years max in Jail?!!!
Its weird. Why is money so much more protected than time? Since when does $1000 equal a couple years in jail, practically ruining somebody's life?
Maybe, with the gov's budget woes, they ought to be able to fine $50,000 and use less jail time
Peace
karl
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Gawd! I HATE the word "Governance." It makes my flesh creep.
Fattrad had the right view about the "demographics." Every demographic group other than "taxpayers" is demanding more cradle-to grave handouts.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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The voters always tend to elect whoever promises more fringe benefits, the Greeks elected the current socialist prime minister because he promised more benes during his campaign. Now he's cutting whatever they had.
This in a nutshell seems to be the death spiral of democracy. Human nature or Darwinian imperative? I can't decide.
DISCLAIMER: Crawling flesh as a consequence of Things I've Posted are purely coincidental, non-intentional and I hereby absolve myself of any and all liability.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
Arkansas, I suppose
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Yo California: get rid of some of your prisons. You are paying way too much to incarcerate people who don't deserve it.
P.S. Good luck with that, I'm sure the prison guards' union will love the idea.
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dirtbag
climber
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dirtbag,
The voters always tend to elect whoever promises more fringe benefits, the Greeks elected the current socialist prime minister because he promised more benes during his campaign. Now he's cutting whatever they had.
Meg, I and the next Calif GOP chair have already made the plans for Calif. I'll tell you more later.
The evil one
To a point, that is, until taxes become too high.
And you are going to tell me that this wonderful dysfunction imposed by the 2/3 majority (aka minority rule) is functional?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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There is only one answer to California's problems . . .
Raise Taxes
[A]ll costs have been cut, how many more cuts can we take[?]
All the costs have been cut? Please read Karl's post, above, with which I thoroughly agree. We need to question whether every aspect of state government, including the penal code, is worth it.
I also agree that we need to raise more revenue to pay off our overspending spree, and that will require some higher taxes. Those tax increases should be universal, though. A rather small percentage of individuals pay an overwhelming proportion of California taxes. I think this contributes greatly to the disconnect between what we spend and what we take in.
Neither spending cuts nor tax increases should be off the table.
We give the two industries you mentioned tax breaks because the businesses are being lured away by other states. Film making in Calif is way down and every state is after the "green" jobs. Michigan runs ads 24/7 on CNBC.
I'm aware of that, fattrad, but here, perhaps I'm being ideological rather than practical. I cannot support governmental subsidies for favored industries. At least from the time that Proxmire led the charge against American subsidies of an SST in the 1970's, I have opposed this because I believe government is incapable of picking business winners and losers as rationally as the market.
What we can do, however, is make sure that the burden on business generally in California is no greater than that elsewhere. Here, I'm afraid we fare rather poorly. Both our legislature and our voters think they know more than the average person, and impose their will (often their willful ignorance) on the economy.
Again, I think these are tough problems with no easy -- and certainly no painless -- solutions. Maybe we need a surge of "state patriotism" where we start competing to see how much we can do to solve the problem, rather than trying to impose the solution on everyone but ourselves.
John
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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I wonder if the Governator and the Legislature is now working for the minimum wage? The Justices of the Supreme Court? District Court Judges? How far UP the food chain does the minimum wage extend?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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If all you have is minimum skills, then minimum wage is more than generous.
It's not based on what you think you want, but on what you produce.
I feel sorry for the folks who can't do nore than five or six-dollar-an-hour work because minimum wage has priced them right out of the job market.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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thank god for governor schwarzeneggar for delivering us from the corrupt regime of gray davis. if things are going badly, it's just because it's still davis's fault. he screwed things up so much that it's taking this long to straighten them out. i'm so glad we have the means to recall complete fark-upz like that. go, arnold, go!
and to think how davis stole that re-election only a year before arnold came along to save us! good thing we've got this great movie hero turned political hero, i don't care what the translation of his german name means. (clue: notice how it's not weißritter?)
without arnold, we'd still be languishing in the torpor of the davis economy. can you imagine? we'd probably have to be paying people just to work for them, like $-5 an hour or something. be happy arnie's able to keep it in the black. part of it goes to pay back the money he borrowed to hire out-of-state people to gather signatures for the recall. good thing--we were so busy working then we'd never have been able to do it for ourselves.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Show of hands for who thinks Cruz Bustamonte would have been a better governor? Who thinks we'd be better off?
I think main issue is super-majority approval to make any real changes, and we get bogged down. This was on the ballot last year to reduce this unrealistic hurdle for positive change, but it was voted down. Then there's the referendums such as the garbage from PG&E to lock in their state monopoly....
The b.s. in the political commentaries for the official ballot guides are just too confusing... I'm a fairly bright guy and I end up more confused than I started after reading the arguments for and against and the rebuttals for a given measure.
I'm sure a lot of people who bother to vote don't even read that much before voting.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I googled a CA Legislature group photo to title "Blame These Guys"
This was the best I could do
Oddly enough it was at the CA Center for Autism
Guess that explains it.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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What exactly has ahnold done better than or different from Davis, it's all flash.
i believe the governator draws no salary, it works better for his taxes that way. Plus it gives him leverage to steal the state worker's money.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mr Milktoast,
Illegal Aliens gotta eat too.
The Government should never stand between a worker wanting to work and someone wanting to hire that worker.
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gonzo chemist
climber
Crane Jackson's Fountain St. Theater
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Lolli,
average price of gallon of gas in CA is US$ 3,10 (24 Swedish krona)
Living on US $7 per hour sucks. I've done approximately just that for the last 5 years, as a graduate student.
I don't have children to raise or a family to take care of. So I get by just fine.
7.25/hour just isn't enough for people who have families. Its like an insult.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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If I demanded $7.25/an hour to grow avocados, only the rich would be able to afford Guacamole on their burritos.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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I agree that living on $7.25 an hour sucks. An earlier poster pointed out that the labormarket is unfairly depressed by illegal alien cheap labor, and I agree.
Chaz-if they want to eat, maybe they should simply "go home!"
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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When I was a kid, kids worked at places like fast-food joints. Now people my age are staffing those places.
You ever wonder why?
One reason is the high minimum wage discourages empolyers from taking a chance hiring a green kid with no work history. Why hire someone who may or may not produce enough to cover his wages - or even show up to work reliabally - when for the same money you can employ an actual adult who's proven to be a reliable worker?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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"behind every fortune there is a crime." -- balzac
"i always wanted to be a philanthropist, but i couldn't afford it." -- donald ward
so, how'd you make all that money, skip?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Lolli-
I'm retired and my Socialist Security income is even less than working at minimum wage. I worked darned hard at my profession (manufacturing chemist) for 45 years and was very frugal. I made sure that my retirement years would not be in pauperdom. Still, it's not easy to live on $1100 a month; just for energy costs (electricity and heating)and food plus gasoline eats that up quickly.
I don't believe that anyone here is advocating hardworking people trying to live that way--it's simply a function of big government really screwing things up through bad legislation in the past, and spending beyond it's means.
It has been pointed out that the labor market has been severely perturbed by a huge supply of illegal alien labor willing to work off-paper at substandard wages, thereby depressing the wage to "minimum" wage level for "legal" labor.
Skipt- I'll bet that you don't have a monthly mortgage to service, and at one point you did something similar to what I did--made sure that you were relatively debt free.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Acknowledging that this topic has evolved to a discussion of hourly wage - I would like to opine about on the subject of infrastructure.
As in California's infrastructure died a long time ago.
This was never more noticeable to me than a few weeks ago when I had to drive from the Central Coast of California to Portland Oregon. My route took me up the 101 to the 152 to the 5 where I stayed until reaching my daughter's place in SE Portland.
It was absolutely astounding the difference in the infrastructure and upkeep of the freeways compared between the two states.
As a Californian, I thought I was adequately inured to accept potholes, broken concrete, tons of trash and four foot high weeds in the medians and closed rest stops as being the "norm" for all major highway systems. True to this ideal - this is exactly what I saw on my entire path through the Golden State.
(Footnote - oddly enough, the filthiest freeways were in the Metro Sacramento area - within sight of the capitol building - go figure.)
However, once I passed into Oregon - it was amazing! For the next 5 hours until I reached downtown Portland - not one weed growing up through broken tarmac, no trash blowing around the median dividers, ALL and I do mean ALL of the rest stops were open and working - some even offered hot coffee!!!!
It got so bad that I had to restrain myself from tossing some garbage out the car window just to make myself feel at home.
Yet what really confounded me was the question of how can one state with all of its millionaires and billionaires, all of its internationally known companies, all of its mansions and movie stars have such a third world road network when some little state a fifth of California's size with a reputation for rain, logging, cheese and not much else can yet still manage to maintain their infrastructure as such noticeable levels?
And if that wasn't enough of an insult - they had lower prices on California grown produce and a better selection of beers than I can get back home.
They even had people who would run out into the rain at gas stations to fill up your car for you??? And I still paid 20 cents less per gallon than I do in self-serve California!!! I had to apologize to the first guy who pulled that on me - I thought he was some homeless dude scamming me for a buck.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Skipt-
I do something similar; I burn lots of firewood in a good freestanding woodstove for heat. I have a freezer filled with beef that I raised here on the ranch. I have probably 10 acres of woodlot on my place, and it provides me with more than enough wood from blowdown and deadfall every year.
I also agree that education takes one out of the minimum wage slave economy; I have a graduate degree in chemistry and paid for it myself through a graduate teaching assistantship supplemented by the Viet Nam era GI Bill benefits, since I also served a 3 year hitch in the army.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Let's keep in mind that the min wage is TEMPORARY until a budget is passed. Cali has failed to pass one on time for at least 2 years in a row.
The people who do not like it can quit and find work elsewhere!
Lolli, I have worked for minimum wage. Sure it was when I lived with my parents in HIGH SCHOOL! Education IS very important. But, there seems to be a sense of entitlement and lack of work ethic now. As Chaz said, illegal immigrants largely do the work that American youth used to do.
Have you ever seen private business not give raises one year, or lay off workers because of lack of profit? Why the the State gov't or Fed be any different.
I congratulate Arnold on this move.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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RickyD--
I worked in Oregon for 3 years 2006-2009. It is a very nice clean state, and doesn't seem to have that "welfare state" mentality, even tho' it's a pretty "liberal" place politically. As Fattrad keeps pointing out--demographics. Look at the demographics of the 50% that has dropped out, and is looking for that next government program.
What is being ignored here on this thread is the fact that nationally we are in more than a recession, it's truly more of a depression. The economy is actually contracting, in spite of the smoke-and-mirrors government figures on economic production. Companies are NOT hiring, they are downsizing to survive. The state employees have been on the gravy train for years, and now they too are going to feel some pain. Being a state employee has never been about productivity, and some of what they 'produce' is grief for a lot of other people.
It also has to do with the once-great production jobs--building automobiles, washers, refirgerators, computers, etc. have all been exported. The leading export of the United States today is JOBS!
End of Rant!!
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Tell ya what Blu..
Quit your job. Start applying for a new one. Report back to this thread in 6 months and tell us how the job search is going.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Tell ya what Blu..
Quit your job. Start applying for a new one. Report back to this thread in 6 months and tell us how the job search is going.
What's to blame for the lack of work? What's to blame for the lack of reimbursement?
State workers have had this coming Cali for a LONG time. I would take a low-paying job if I lost my job. I'm proud to say I've never collected unemployment. Always took sh#t jobs and worked my up.
People need to quit belly-aching....
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Bluering and I need to climb together--we could have a helluva good time with a mutual diatribe against....just about everything!!
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apogee
climber
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"People need to quit belly-aching...."
bluering, you are a classic, out-of-touch, 'I've got mine, screw everyone else' Repugnican, in the truest sense of the word.
Assh*le.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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bluering, you are a classic, out-of-touch, 'I've got mine, screw everyone else' Repugnican, in the truest sense of the word.
I work in electronics manufacturing and Dingus has almost all right. What would I do if I lost my job tomorrow???? Prolly deliver pizzas, Home Depot, or whatever until I found better.
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apogee
climber
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"What would I do if I lost my job tomorrow????"
In the interest of your own enlightenment, I sincerely hope that you walk into your job very soon to receive a pink slip, and are then faced with supporting your family, keeping them healthy, paying your mortgage, and keeping the lights on in your house.
It will be interesting to hear your opinions on a range of issues after you have been seeking a job for months, your unemployment benefits have been cut off, you then found a job delivering pizzas for $7.25/hour, you've lost your previous health insurance because COBRA cost as much as a month's worth of pizza delivering.
Until something like this happens, your posts make you out to be classically out-of-touch, and you look like an assh*le. Best to just shut it, 'cuz you don't know what the feck you are talking about.
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nb3000
Social climber
Bay Area
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As for the OP, its just posturing. Schwarzenegger says he'll do it, Chiang says Arnold doesn't have that power, and both cite laws supporting their own position and contradicting the others'. Schwarzenegger did the same thing last year, but the legislature passed a budget before the reduced wage could kick in. So maybe its not really posturing if it actually works.
A Bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma.
Skipt and brokedown are on to something: reduce your need to earn, reduce your need to spend. Its the only way out.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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I will admit to that.
Three years ago I held a third level management position with a major telecommunications company. I had started on the ground level 18 years before and had learned and earned my way up the ladder on my own.
My people and I were directly responsible for the mythical 99.99% reliability factor for ALL of my company's fiber based data transmissions in three western states. I had the company car, the home office, the "real" office, the salary, the perks and the bonuses. Fat and Happy middle class life was figgin good.
A few tech crashes later combined with a depressed capital economy and whammo - you get the handshake and the buyout and you damn well take it.
Only things happen.
Your investment firm "loses" 55% of your money during the first few months of the banking crash. So much for aggressive investing.
Someone in your family actually gets sick - and you find that COBRA can go from merely being crazy expensive to "not in my lifetime" expensive.
And your house loses 60% percent of market value from two years earlier and your bank loses its mind and jacks rates and fees all over your ass - and you get the point.
But what really sucks is that 3 solid focused years of sending out resumes and networking to the point of puking has yet to find a position where I can even come close to what I had before. For the moment, I keep the bills paid and the lights on with a brainless job at a third of the salary...and am damn happy I have it to...because every day I meet people who don't.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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My "investment firm" is me! I have most of my $$$ invested in the ranch operation, in cows, implements, etc. I prefer to trust my own judgement in financial matters which is better than any investment counsellor. We are led to believe that we can have financial security by making investments in instruments in which we have zero control. There is a market that can be manipulated, sold short, has all sorts of derivative investments that are nothing other than hot air that we are supposed to "trust."
Tangible investments are always solid: Gold, Silver, cows, collectibles, artworks, etc. never vanish in smoke. Poof!
In my case, it's a choice. I choose to live something of a minimalist lifestyle. I don't spend if I don't have. California needs to operate in a similar manner
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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Thanks for the information about the Governator doing the same thing last year, I didn't know that. Makes me feel a bit better about the possible infrastructure melt-down.
Rick: Wow - what a difficult and aggravating situation. I feel for ya, Man.
Appreciate all of the input on this from everyone else, as well (Bluering being the exception)
Erik
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Duke
Social climber
PSP
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Higher taxes are fine if you are not shouldering the burdon. When you are paying 6 figure personal state income tax in CA ( as a result of NOL suspension by the legislature) where that same tax would be $0 in NV, TX, SD, FL, etc. you move yourself and your business.
The state is culling taxpayers. That is part of the reason CA is in this financial mess.
Great climate, but not worth the cost.
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nb3000
Social climber
Bay Area
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Here is a link to a similar story with a couple more details:
Schwarzenegger orders minimum wage for workers
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has ordered the state controller to cut the pay for most state workers to the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour due to the lack of a budget being in place by the start of the fiscal year, which began Thursday.
The governor was expected to make that order, which affects about 200,000 state workers, though the timing was uncertain.
State workers who experience pay cuts would be reimbursed once a state budget is in place. Most state employees are paid monthly at the end of the month, so if a budget is in place before the end of July, they would not receive a reduced paycheck.
Administration officials maintain they are required by law to reduce worker pay in the absence of a budget.
In a letter to Controller John Chiang, Debbie Endsley, the director of the Department of Personnel Administration wrote, "Today is July 1, 2010, and there is no state budget. Regrettably, we must take the steps ... to adjust wages and salaries during this budget impasse."
The administration made a similar order in 2008, but Schwarzenegger waited until the end of July to do so. Chiang defied that order and was sued by Schwarzenegger, but the budget impasse was resolved before a judge made a ruling in favor of the governor.
Chiang appealed the judge's decision and oral arguments were heard last week. A subsequent decision could still be appealed to the state Supreme Court. The administration has argued that it is bound by law to slash pay to the federal minimum wage without a spending plan in place, while Chiang has countered that doing so is actually a violation of the law.
In response to the administration's actions Thursday, Chiang released a statement saying he would not comply with the request until the courts make a final ruling and calling Schwarzenegger's order "political tricks."
"Because of the limits of the state's payroll system, there is no way that his order can be accomplished without violating the state Constitution and the federal Fair Labor Standards Act," Chiang said in a statement. "In short, his demands will do nothing to solve the budget deficit, but will hurt taxpayers by exposing the state to billions of dollars in penalties for those violations."
Six public employee unions that represent about 37,000 workers would be excluded because they have agreed to contract concessions that gave them an exemption from such an order. However, those contracts have yet to be approved by the union membership or the Legislature.
In her letter, Endsley wrote, "We anticipate passage of a continuous appropriation (from the Legislature) for these bargaining units before the end of the month."
Assembly Speaker John Pérez, D-Los Angeles, said he was "deeply disappointed" by Schwarzenegger's order.
"This is not a realistic proposal to save the state cash any more than his budget plan, which kills 430,000 jobs, is a realistic proposal to close our deficit," he said in a released statement. "Using working families as leverage is not the kind of leadership we need to get through this budget process."
The state's largest public employee union, SEIU Local 1000, along with the union representing prison guards, have yet to reach agreement on contracts. An SEIU spokesman could not be reached for comment.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Capitalism needs to be balanced with socialism. (trust me, it totally does)
Globalism needs to be balanced with protectionism.
Agree with your first point, DMT, if by "socialism" you mean enforced sharing. Strongly disagree with the second, however. Protectionism hurts everyone not protected and wastes resources, skills and comparative advantage. Use some of that "socialism' to ameliorate the dislocations of international trade, and everyone will be better off, because specialization is productive.
John
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Gobalism is a real joke as a concept. We have given countries who in the past have said, "We will bury you," most favored nation trading status. Now they are burying us financially. The only thing that China imports from the U.S. is jobs.
With the global communication network, you call a computer or software company for "support" and you get someone who barely speaks English, much less, is actually capable of "helping" you!
Getting back to the original title of this thread, re: Infrastructure, there is no money left to maintain the infrastructure, much less expand or improve same.
What every one here is really complaining about is Corporatism, the corporate state. It's worse than socialism, communism, fascism, or just about any other "ism." It has bled this country dry of jobs, capital, all at the behest of big international corporations. Key word: International.
How much merchandise do you see on the shelves, other than food, at Wal-Mart that is "Made in the U.S.A.?" Even food, substandard and often contaminated, is coming from China. Farm raised fish, shrimp, etc. that are not raised to USDA standards is on their shelves. I simply don't buy any foodstuffs made in China in simple self-defense of my own health.
And they are helping the "little people." Bull$hit.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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By reliance on overses manufactue to "reduce consumer costs" we have lowered ourselves to their labor markets as well. The only way Americans can get jobs these days is at Chinese labor prices.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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glad dingus brought up china here.
i live in los angeles, whose major industry has become being the port for monster ships coming in from china with all these cheap goods being pipelined into every walmart ("lowest prices--always") as well as every mom-and-pop general store in the u.s.a.
i'm a carpenter, and when i buy tools i don't mind spending some bucks on the best quality available. this used to involve milwaukee sawzalls, made in milwaukee, bosch miter saws, made in germany, makita grinders and drills, made in japan. now they're all made in china for these companies, and quality is a crapshoot.
nothing against the chinese, but all the best ones have either fled the country or are rotting in prisons. maybe they get to tighten a screw on a grinder once in awhile.
and do you want to know what the chinese do with all the money they're vacuuming out of our pockets? they turn right around and buy u.s. treasury bills, helping finance the foreign adventures of the bushobamas. i won't draw any conclusions on that. y'all figure it out and tell me.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Can you maybe try and be an actual Republican for once and teach people how to chase their own dollars instead of thinking it OK to chase other peoples?
You mean you want Wall Street capitalists to actually stop leeching off of us and start pulling their own weight? Not much chance of that happening.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Tony-
There is NO product that the Chinese can't make "a little cheaper," albiet with significant lowered quality and reliability.
Cripes! Even the new Cessna Skycatcher all composite airplane is being built in China. I value my own a$$ enough to never get into one. I'll never forgive Cessna for that move!
I know exactly what you mean about tools--especially Milwaukee. I have quite a few older Milwaukee tools that are exceptionally good. I'll keep them forever and screw the newer bright red ones.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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There is NO product that the Chinese can't make "a little cheaper," albiet with significant lowered quality and reliability.
I question that statement.
First, differences in quality differentiate products. A Steinway and a Pearl River both have 88 keys, but they aren't the same instrument. Asian manufacturers have been trying for decades to match the quality of top American and European pianos without success. As good as Yamaha and Kawai are, they simply don't have access to the woods needed to produce the best sound, and I'm sure China is no different. So China can build a piano with lower wage rates, but it can't build a Steinway for less, which is why they're still made in New York.
Also, infrastructure matters. Steinway could pay less per hour for Chinese labor to assemble pianos, say, but the cost of training, setting up shop, sending in materials, and then re-doing them for sale in the U.S. makes their total labor cost prohibitive. The issue for business isn't wage rates, it's unit labor cost, and there are still a great many goods for which US labor has the lowest unit labor costs.
In fact, the economy is, and always will be in flux if people are free. About 150 years ago, when the railroads revolutionized transportation possiblities, specialized manufacturers could turn out cheaper and better products than local craftsmen. This hurt the local craftsmen, and helped everyone else. It's still happening. If you decry globalization, you're denying the economic reality that specializaiton is productive.
So how does this fit in California? We had a very highly educated labor force, excellent transportation infrastructure, a productive water system, and abundant sunshine. This made us a leader in agriculture, high-tech industries, entertainment and the production of knowledge. As we've neglected our infrasture (see topic title) and, instead, spent more of our state resources on Quixotic quests and buying votes, our relative productivity, and hence our ability to obtain good income, declined.
John
Edit: The original version of this post shows the danger of trying to sneak in a comment while I'm working. There must have been at least a dozen typos!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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I think that you inadvertently made my point for me: a Steinway is a Steinway, not just a piano. Point: they don't have the woods. They could build something and put a Steinway name on it , but a Rubenstein or Gilels would know that it was a Chinese "knock off" from the first note played. Just because something is called a Milwaukee tool doesn;t make it the "real thing" either, regardless of the label.
Too many people just don't know or just don't care enough to demand the "real thing."
john; You did hit the nail on the head with the comment about the "Quixotic guests and buying votes."
Overall great comments that I enjoyed reading.
Rodger
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I agree with Rodger, here. Not because I'm a xenophobe, but too many times I've seen Chinese and some other low-quality tools just fail. They don't care! And I think that is a big difference between the people who used to manufacture American tools and the low-wage Chinese workers and their overlords.
They don't care about reputation, pride in workmanship, and quality. It's more about quantity. Many, many, Americans are willing to pay more for an American made product with pride in the U.S.A.
I've heard the argument about Bosch, Craftsman, et. el. maintaining quality in their factories overseas, but it's largely public relations BS. I've seen it firsthand (tools falling apart)!!!
And that's not taking into account that you're sending jobs overseas. There are many skilled machinists and crafstmen that have suffered from this.
It's only a matter of time before I'm hit too (electronics manufacturing).
Even Taiwan has electronics quality issues....trust me.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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zhangyuyu, what is your point?
Fatty, yeah, just another problem with unions....
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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That's why Pontiacs are so popular! ;>) er.....gone.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Rox-
My first car was a 1954 Pontiac straight eight! Not an easy car to learn on...real stiff clutch (no automatics for my old man!)
Edit: I had the year posted wrong!
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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We tell the Chinese to make cheap junk, and that's what they give us. If you think the Chinese are incapable of building quality goods you're in for a big shock.
Prop 13 killed California's infrastructure, that's why we're going down the tubes. All so the corporations can make a last big killing. They know capitalism doesn't work, that's why they won't invest in it, just suck out what they can while they still can.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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making the entire HF band hum with static and noise I've experienced the same issues. It's good to know there are other climbers who know about HF bands (see the Ham Radio thread,infra.)
John
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Duke
Social climber
PSP
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Fatty- I am loath to agree with you on the politics given my lifelong left bent, however, in the case of CA what you say is true.
I am not able to move the CA piece of my business, but can and will move my residency out of the state.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Keep Wyoming beautiful....don't move here! ;>)
Wyoming bumper sticker.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Was that Jim Arnold the beloved former 426 or another Arnold with those crazy ideas?
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Duke
Social climber
PSP
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Nevada
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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The real problem in Cali is the shrinking tax base in the face of a burgoening "Quixotic visitor" population. I'm surprised that the "quick band aid fix" hasn't been a "temporary" increase in the sales tax and gasoline tax to cover the revenue shortfall. Even though painful, it catches everyone in proportion to their spending. The state could also impose a special "international funds transfer tax" to catch some of the money being transferred by the "visitors" back to the "mother country." Mainly the problem is still spending more than is taken in by revenue, and handle finances in the same manner individuals need do. i.e. "Don't have---don't spend."
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Option: reduce "entitlements" comensurately to match revenue received. Try to maintain essential services, i.e. fire protection, road repairs/construction/ police protection, etc. and cut everything else. It's a hard situation, but "bite the bullet."
There's a military axiom: "He who trys to defend everything defends nothing," would seem to have an analogue here. Hard choices, and most politicians who are in the vote-buying business, cannot be trusted to make them.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Push harder!
TANSTAFL! Everything else is FUBAR!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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"burgeoning"? roflmao.
i came here quixotically in 1980 and have since contributed as much as anyone through underpaid slave labor. the illegals drive that down even further, but they contribute plenty too.
california natives, bless 'em, don't have that you've-only-lived-here-50-years-so-you're-a-newcomer chip on their shoulders you find around most of the rest of the west.
california's economy collapsed because it was built up by your tax dollar, you stupid redneck, spreading the 'burbs far and wide by means of a monster machine called aerospace. they laid everyone off by the tens of thousands 15 years ago, and now we're trying to be a little village, scratching each other's backs for spare change. we could learn a lot from the networking that goes on in a good mormon town.
"the police at the port of entry say
you're number fourteen thousand for today ...
california is a garden of eden
a paradise to live in or see
but believe it or not
you won't find it so hot
if you ain't got the do-re-mi."
--woody guthrie, 1930s
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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It was a combination of aerospace and silicon valley that caused Cali to grow at an unreasonable rate. Now, all the silicon valley jobs have been exported to China and aerospace is undersupported by the combination of the "new" NASA and Defense Department.
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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California also has twice as many regulatory agencies as the maximum number of any other state.
That has to be responsible for a lot of the budget problems in hard times, I would think:
http://www.epa.gov/epahome/state.htm
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