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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 1, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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We had an inquiry about the current state of bolts on West Face - anyone know the conditions? The question came from someone who climbed it 10+ years ago and remembered being sketched out by some of the bolts.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Well, the first ascent team placed only one bolt, in 1967, so it shouldn't be too hard to check. And they had only pitons and basic nuts.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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The anchors were ok, but no fun to rap off in a rain storm (we did from 2/3 up). If you're going up, you're fine.
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Patrick Purcell
Trad climber
Heber City, Utah
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I am looking for any updated info regarding route beta and fixed equipment on the west face of El-cap. Thank you
P.
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tahoe523
Trad climber
SF, CA
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PM me if you have specific questions. We topped out yesterday afternoon and came down today.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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In 1999 the bolts were good, except for the one up high on p14, which is strange and sticks out a ways. Fixed pins below this bolt on p14 were missing in 1999, so it was hard to reach; I flipped my rope over it to protect the moves up to clip it.
In 1999 there was a fixed copperhead near the end of p1 with most of the cable strands broken, so I did a couple of free moves instead of grabbing it. It is probably gone or replaced by now.
It was originally done with just one bolt, but with many pitons. For awhile p2 was considered sketchy due to missing fixed pins, but by 1991 someone had added a couple of bolts at the start in lieu of the pins, so you were no longer in danger if hitting your belayer if you fell from the initial moves.
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Mungeradomas
Gym climber
Deep State of Philosophical Mind Bending
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FWIW, a rock slide hit out left from Lurking Fear. I'm not familiar with that section of the wall, so couldn't say if it reached to the West Face route.
Here's the pic from the base of the corners on LF looking up and left of the dust cloud as the rocks ripped from the cliff.
Clint does that look like it might be near the West Face or not?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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There's a lot of rock around the corner from Lurking Fear, so it's not possible to say if that rockfall hit the West Face. Probably it's OK, since the person who posted above just did it.
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Mungeradomas
Gym climber
Deep State of Philosophical Mind Bending
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ic now, thx
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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cool photo, though.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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that old aid anchor in the middle of the crux of the 11 finger crack pitch is super ugly and whack... it kind of ruins the pitch if you don't know to skip it. everything else seemed fine when I did it last year.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Could you do the route reasonably using only the original single bolt?
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alik
Big Wall climber
edmonton
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The first two belays would be fairly intricate and require pitons if only the original bolt was used, so might as well replace those anchors with modern hardware since it is a free route, and the bolts are already there. These bolts were in so-so shape, and are in need of replacing, if it hasn't already been done.
Like dustonian mentioned, the old hanging belay in the middle of the 6th or so pitch should probably be removed, as it is unnecessary, and is right in the middle of the free climbing crux (well protected). You can keep going past this anchor, and reach the next ledge with a 70, or with just a touch of easy simuling on a 60. Makes for a killer long pitch! Overall there was a bit of extra hardware at belays in '08 that could be removed, if some was replaced with modern bolts.
Also, I don't remember any bolts on P2, and the pro was good, so I guess these bolts were chopped?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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so, are we good to go? I got plans...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The anchor bolt at the end of original pitch 7 is the only original and by definition necessary bolt. While a couple of holes may have become needed to avoid blown placements, the rest are all convenience or chicken bolts. It's a shame. Some thought really needs to go into cleaning up and restoring this route before every indiscretion is immortalized in stainless steel, IMO.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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The anchor bolt at the end of original pitch 7 is the only original and by definition necessary bolt.
the problem with fixed pitons are: (1)that they loosen and corrode over time becoming less reliable and (2)boneheads tamper with and steal them. The pinbolt solves both problems directly. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=424115&msg=445627#msg445627
Care to explain your position again Steve?
We're by no means advocating replacing non-orginal bolts just because they are there, but "by definition necessary" sounds like a pretty uncompromising position - particularly with bolts that were placed long ago to replace pitons that had fallen out. Actually sounds like it could be a good spot for pinbolts.
There may be interest in replacing what should be replaced, and removing what should be pulled. Any consensus about what should stay and what should go? Sounds like the bolted anchor midway on pitch 7 should definitely go. Are there dead heads that could use some cleaning as well?
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Acer
Big Wall climber
AZ
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Looks like it is time for a restoration of the West Face. I would like to give it a go in the original condition.
How has the free climbing effected the addition of fixed gear?? There might be so influence there.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Weld_It has all the beta you need
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Greg- I have no quarrel with blown placements requiring a hole if no other option is shown through real effort to be available. The West Face as a predominantly free route for most parties and is unique in its low bolt count. How many of the bolts should stay if the route was retrofitted is my question and it can only be answered by a party that intentionally climbs the route avoiding them.
How many bolts are on the route right now?
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burntheman
Trad climber
slt
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I climbed this a week ago. This is what I remember. Maybe tahoe523 can verify. Ryan has put a nice pitch by pitch breakdown in the comments section on mp. It seems to be the same as what I encountered. http://mountainproject.com/v/california/yosemite_national_park/yosemite_valley/106065890
1st bolt on pitch 1 was an old quarter incher and the second was an smc. You can get 1 or 2 solid cams (yellow and gray aliens) below the bolts/crux. The first two bolts on pitch 2 were new. The first bolt after the runout on pitch 2 was also new. The anchor was 2 old bolts and 1 new. The midway anchor on p7(reid guide) was 2 old bolts equalized with an rp. I think there were two different pieces of tat equalized both of which were garbage. The equalized mank is right in the middle of the climbing assuming you aren't stopping to belay. Bolt at the top of the pitch was old but had supplemental gear. I think I had an offset yellow/green alien but can't remember the other peice.
I think all the bolts at the top of p8 were old.
The fixed/drilled? pin on 13 was still there and seems solid.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Cool Steve, it sounds like we are all on the same page - let's figure out what should go and what should stay. Obviously if there are 5-bolt anchors (like the top of pitch 8) they should at a minimum be reduced to 2 good bolts!
So it sounds like maybe the first or both bolts on pitch 1 aren't really needed with aliens? Do others agree with that?
Remove the anchor midway pitch 7.
That leaves around 10 more bolts to figure out whether to chop or replace...input from people?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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This route truly deserves the consideration based on the stellar effort by RR and TM! An El Cap Grade VI with one bolt!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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If you placed all your own belay anchors, could you reasonably climb the route using only the one original belay bolt?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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yes.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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You people are wrong. The original single bolt on the route was a bolt placed after the arch near the top of pitch two. It was used for upward progress. I hooked by it and avoided it on the fifth ascent August of 1971. We need to get the AAJ article up here for this. The ledge at the end of pitch 7 was anchorless, surprisingly.... and not a great situation after a full rope length I remember. It needed a bolt and of course it got one or two eventually.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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Peter- Roper's green guide is my source for locating that single bolt. How many bolts do you recall in total when you did it?
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jul 10, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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I was just reading this in the can the other day... just happened to run across it.
From the 1968 AAJ, page 73
**The West Face - El Capitan
Royal Robbins**
The West face is the plain Jane sister of the Salathe Wall of El Capitan. It would be more distinguished were it not adjacent to one of the most sweeping and magnificent rock walls in the world, flanked as that wall is by the pure and noble lines of the west and south buttresses. It's true that the other sister of the Salathe, the North America Wall, is no charmer, but it at least faces the onlooker frontily and sternly and inspires the sort of fearful awe one would feel facing the medusa. Not so the west face, which is tucked in a corner almost out of sight, except from such distant viewpoints as the Wawona Tunnel overlook. Unfortunately, from these positions the aquiline form of the west buttress is invisible, so the west face and Salathe Wall appear as one unbroken precipice, to the esthetic detriment of both.
Notwithstanding the above, the west face is nearly 2000 feet high, and composed of some of the finest rock in Yosemite. Besides which, when TM Herbert and I approached in early June, 1967, it was still virgin; and virgin walls are becoming as rare in Yosemite as condors in California: there are a few left, but you have to look hard to find them.
Herbert and I walked along with little of the fear and anxiety that are normal passengers of the mind when nearing a big wall. We had both already met the challenges of greater walls than the west face; and with 30 expansion bolts, we were confident we would succeed, or at least certain we could escape safely if we failed. Our attitudes had changed much since a dozen years earlier, when, scrambling toward the Lost Arrow Chimney with my friend Joe Fitschen, I was almost dizzy with fear contemplating that horrendous gash topped by the unreal pinnacle of the Lost Arrow Spire.
But we approached the west face with a self-assurance born of years of experience in just the sort of climbing we expected to meet. Thus deprived of any significant element of the unknown, our venture promised little of grand alpinisms, but it would surely be a first-rate rock climb, and so it proved.
We passed the great pillar of the west buttress and peered upward through leathery evergreen foliage of canyon live oaks. There was the west face, first white and then reddish brown as it curved upward slowly out of sight. The wall has a curiously plated appearance and lacks deep continuous fractures. However, there are many shallow discontinuous ones, which, if we could somehow connect, would give us a good route with few bolts. But could we tie them together?
We began at a large block which sits between two cliffs in the El Capitan Couloir. Our first goal was a great arch separating the lower white granite, more normal of Yosemite, from the upper, unusual, rusty-hued rock of peculiar construction. The first pitch, one of the hardest we would face, was a problem in aid climbing. A skyhook placed with a two-foot length of stiff wire was the key. But it did not exactly open the door, for the pitch was hard all the way.
Herbert came up the fixed line with Jumars (odd how it is natural for TM's friends to call him "Herbert"—for short as it were—instead of his first name, the letters "TM"). He removed the hardware as he came, while I hauled our 50-pound sack. Above, a 45-foot piton crack arched upward behind a thin exfoliating slab, seemingly the type that each piton pries outward loosening those below. One abhors starting a pitch like this for one knows the gut-biting anxiety, the unrelenting dread as repeatedly there passes across the mind pictures of those pitons being torn from their grip as the body plummets downward. Strangely, it is the thought of the pins ripping out that most horrifies, rather than falling or hitting.
Herbert no more wanted to take a long fall than I did to hold one, and so we were delighted that the flake proved solider than anticipated. Higher, Herbert was stymied by a blank area. After an hour of fruitless effort he reluctantly resorted to using the only bolt we placed on the climb.
The next pitch was great fun; mixed free and aid climbing requiring alertness and good form, but no major efforts or plumbing of one's personal deprhs. We bivouacked at the foot of the arch, one easy pitch higher.
Next morning we passed the arch with the aid of a nut fitted snugly in a slot at the lip of the overhang and next enjoyed some very un-Yosemite-like face climbing among spikes and knobs, cracks and solution pockets, with good nuts and runners for protection and hardly a piton.
After three pitches more or less straight up, there was Herbert belaying in slings just below an excellent ledge. He wasn't on the ledge because it lacked anchors. The weather was beginning to deteriorate as I minced up on rounded holds and began a long aid traverse with pitons hard to place but easy to remove. We finished the traverse and rappelled to a good ledge where we passed a wet night, mostly standing to keeb the rain off our legs. For half the next day we continued standing and sitting as the showers came and went. When they came no more, Herbert climbed up and belayed in slings at the junction of two cracks which disappeared over a bulge above. I joined him and took the left crack. It was the wrong one, and that was too bad because this pitch had some superb face-climbing. It was a wonderland of chockstones, spikes and knobs, enough for nine natural runners. But at the end I hit a blank wall and escaped only by lassoing a horn 30 feet away, thus reaching the other crack which led up from Herbert.
We passed a second night on the same ledge and on the fourth day went up left for several pitches to a large terrace. Just below this terrace is a loose block, a deceptive one. Those who come after are advised to watch out for it and to pass via the face on the right.
Above the terrace is a great dihedral 250 feet high, with a crack in the corner varying from one to ten inches. The wall was still damp, the crack a wet, slimy, gruesome thing, especially at the bottom. Luckily, very luckily, we could by-pass the first 35 feet using a crack on the left wall; this Herbert proceeded to do, eventually making a difficult pendulum into the corner, where he found nuts very useful among flakes and blocks. He continued upward on aid and set up a dripping hanging belay in a streamlet. I joined him and moved past his soggy stance as quickly as possible, using nuts and pitons for aid as I continued up the corner. There were two hard spots where it was necessary to free climb the left wall because the crack opened up too big for pitons and was too steep and slippery to jam. But the left wall was wet and mossy, and hard.
We could barely see in the dusk when Herbert joined me on Thanksgiving Ledge, that fabulous terrace running along for hundreds of feet near the top of El Capitan. We slept in a cave with a sandy floor. There was plenty of firewood, but our matches were wet.
Next day, after two hours of easy climbing, we stood once again on top of El Capitan. It was a fresh and sparkling morning.
The Nose will doubtless always be the most popular big route on El Capitan. It is the least difficult and has the finest line. But the runner-up may well become the west face. It is shorter than the others, has no horror pitches, and contains large doses of moderate but exciting face climbing. We recommend it and hope that others will enjoy it as much as we.
Summary of Statistics.
AREA: Yosemite Valley, California.
ASCENT: El Capitan, first ascent of West Face, June 3 to 7, 1967 (TM Herbert, Royal Robbins).
Technical Details: 195 pitons, 100 nuts (artificial chockstones), 57 runners, 1 bolt. Bongs, nothing above 3". NCCS VI, F8, A4 or A5.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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Hi Steve and Steelmonk,
I am sure everyone is glad you posted the AAJ article. It is one of the more casual tales from RR back then. You can tell in it he is getting a little older, wiser and relaxed and most certainly that they had a good time. He loved to sling stuff from a distance too. He was raving about it much later when he backed off the Tangerine Trip in 1971-72. Anything novel was good!
So, anyway, as you can see from the original account the only bolt was on this second pitch, near its top where you stop traversing left (now 5.10a) and head straight up towards a more broken area and your belay. I was able to hook by it on the fifth ascent and in fact I think we removed the bolt....I know, not my call. And that was the only bolt (or hole) we saw I think. HIgher up, at the top of pitch #7, you end on a nice ledge that the Green Roper guide describes as having a bolt. There was no bolt here. And there was no way to anchor here. The ledge did not have a crack in its back. I remember belaying Charlie here from an anchorless position for awhile as he emerged from the sling belay and then moving up on free moves to get some anchors quite a bit higher, returning to the belay ledge. Just for everyone's info, the West Face went all free in May of 1979 at 5.11b.
So in summary, we saw the original TM Herbert bolt, avoided it, and saw no others. Down on the first couple of pitches or more accurately the first real pitch, I remember the anchors being worrisome...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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Thanks for the clarification, Peter! Steel beat me to the post! LOL
Roper only mentions one bolt in his description. Bad assumption on my part.
So this could be a real rarity as a boltless Grade VI! I still would like to do this route and that is what I would be shooting for. I walked a haulbag all the way up there long ago with Paul Davidson and felt silly for approaching the climb that way and decided to leave it for another time.
As per the recent report upthread, would the original bolt likely be the higher of the pair below the runout on pitch 2?
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jul 10, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
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Hey Steve, you gotta pull the trigger! :-)
Just kidding... I had it sitting here and was a spur of the moment deal.
I'm like a machine with the OCR... er OCD... er somethin'.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
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Most likely the original placement was the lower of the two shown. I think I had something quite positive below my hook move. Above the hook move it was back to ordinary business. It is surprising there are two there by the way.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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Steve, I find it interesting that you advocate for an anchorless belay. While a Grade V w/out bolts does have its lure, I think it's foolish to remove bolts from an anchor and leave nothing left to clip, even it that's how it was originally done.
I wonder what the FA team would say about it.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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That's why we have a good discussion here, potentially. At this point, I would approach the route in a boltless style but that doesn't necessarily mean that I advocate for all of the bolts on the route being removed. Some consensus is required to arrive the best solution.
RR and TM are around to ask...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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The topo in the 1994 Reid guide is based on one that I drew in 1991, by modifyng the original (1982 or so) Meyers topo.
My version of the topo shows all the fixed pins, nuts and heads that were in place in 1991.
The published topo should be quite accurate in terms of the bolts in place; I doubt any have been added or subtracted since then.
It also shows how to belay short (at a fixed angle piton) below the crux on p7), so that you do not use the bolt belay in the middle of the crux moves.
The runout face variation on p7 may not be shown correctly; I have not climbed that way.
Ryan's comments on MP say a 70m rope is mandatory; not true unless your goal is to belay exactly where he did.
At a minimum there are some extra bolts at belays that should be removed.
The role of bolts is somewhat ambiguous for a climb which was originally mostly an aid climb in the lower half with pitons. In that context, you minimize bolts and use your aid skills. As a free or mostly free climb done without hooks or placing/removing pitons, a few fixed pitons and bolts are helpful. How few? I'm not sure - try it and find out. The number of bolts/pins you need to clip will depend on your ability/risk level, and on how good your nuts and small cams are.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
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As just an ordinary spudly climbing community "member", who may or may not ever be up to doing this particular climb, my personal vote would be to pull all the bolts but the one original one - and leave it as an antique 1/4 incher as it seems that there is solid gear right nearby (or, with FA permission, pull that one too). The possibility of a boltless full-size El Cap route is too cool!
That said, it is unlikely the climb would remain quite that clean if there are belay stations that one must use that have no anchors, or insufficient anchors to be reasonably confident. Myself, I'd be OK with the climb being that way (that is, a death route) as long as available info (topo) made it clear what one was going to encounter. It would just be one factor to consider in deciding whether to go for the climb. But sooner or later, it's highly likely someone would upgrade those belay stations for safety. So, if good nut or piton anchors are no longer available somewhere, it's lamentable but probably pragmatic to leave (upgrade) one bolt at such a spot.
For sure, it would be desirable if someone who's good enough were to try to do the climb without the bolts and publicize where solid boltless belays can be had. It is definitely a very worthy goal to try to restore this route to a one- or zero-bolt condition if it can be done. There are so many routes to choose from. We should try to preserve one that is so unique.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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If the goal is to restore/experience the original style of the climb, you could remove everything except that one bolt, and then climb it on aid using pitons, nuts & Kronhofer shoes. Don't forget to do it over several rainy days like Royal and TM! :-)
If the goal is a minimal fixed gear climb, you remove the one bolt also; Peter didn't need it. It might go without pins/heads, but I think the runouts could be bad (p1 & 2), and the p1 belay might be sketchy (maybe belay higher?).
But very many people have done this great climb in its current condition, which is the way it has been since it was freed in 1978. It's one of the classics with multiple 5.11 pitches that people aspire to doing, like Astroman. It has been done so much in its current style that this is what I feel should be preserved.
Here is what I would do if replacing bolts on it:
 replace 1-3 pro bolts on p1 (definitely have a bolt at the 5.11b crux; my topo shows another bolt just below it which might not be needed, and a 3rd at 5.10c above which is probably worth replacing)
Reid 1994 topo shows a belay bolt at p1, my topo does not. I don't recall exactly what the anchor is.
examine first pro bolt on p2; if modern small cams give good pro there, remove it. This bolt was not there in 1978 and for awhile (according to Brian Cox) but was fairly new in 1991. It could be a tough call, since you are climbing right above your belayer.
leave the fixed pins in p2; my topo shows 5 fixed pins and 3 fixed nuts
replace the first of 2 bolts at the very end of the pitch (it's 5.10b somewhat slick and runout there), remove the second one
replace 2 bolts at p2 anchor; remove extra 2. Some people hike up in the afternoon, do the first 2 pitches, and fix down from this anchor. Others use it to retreat, thunderstorms are relatively common during the normal summer climbing season.
next fixed pro is one bolt and one pin at (5); the bolt is maybe not needed if people could bail from there (if the pin is good, and a nut could be left to back it up).
fixed angle piton at recommended belay (6). Leave it; good to bail from, expecially if the next anchor is removed.
2 bolt and slings midway up p7 - remove. This will encourage people to belay lower, and not have the 5.11c crux right in the middle of a sling belay. My topo shows a fixed head just below this, and a fixed pin just above.
at (7) the Reid topo shows a bolt and my topo does not (maybe helpful to have a bolt there)
on p8 my topo shows 4 fixed pins in the 5.11 crack and a fixed head at its top. Plenty of cams can be placed, too. I don't recall if the fixed pins are useful
at (8) both topos show 5 bolts. Replace 2 and remove 3. As Peter mentioned, it is a small ledge with blank above. A fixed anchor is good here for retreating. An alternative would be to belay on gear at the top of the 5.8 crack below this.
ASCA in general is not looking to impose an unexpected style on a climb, but not really wanting to validate non-original bolts, either. Often we take the accepted form of the climb as what appears in the first guidebook topo. Sometimes there are difficult decisions (hence Greg is asking here). Usually what Roger does is replace original bolts, remove extra bolts from belays and leave others as is. On Angel's Approach, it was easy to identify a large number of added bolts by the hanger type (and their location 2' above original bolts) and we removed them.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jul 11, 2010 - 10:08am PT
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I have not done the route, but I have been up about 10 pitches, solo, in 1974 or 1975. I remember only one bolt on the slabs on the first or second pitch. I was using pins and nuts for protection and, since I was self belaying and getting good multidirectional belays or secure placements on lead, I don't see any additional bolts as being necessary, at least from a per-cam era using free and aid.
This is a scan of my 1971 guide. Aside from some tick marks on the route list by grade at the back of the book (which I seemed to have marked in 1971) there are no other marks in the entire book. This supports Peter’s comment about no bolt on the ledge on the 7th pitch. However, unlike Peter, I didn't have any issues getting a belay somehow.
One of my few regrets in my climbing years was not finishing the West Face. Took longer to get down that it would have to go up.
On the relative merits of a boltless El Cap route, adherence to the original route bolts, or maintaining a long-standing level of bolts for free climbers, I would opt for bolts to avoid pins all pins, for both lead and belays, when done as an all free route, but no more. Whatever charm it had for Royal and TM, it is now a free route.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 11, 2010 - 11:08am PT
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This is interesting isn't it. Here is MY page from the 1971 guide, altered after Charlie Jackson and i did the 5th ascent, August 1971. I think there might have been a slight error in Roper #2:
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 11, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
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So what does the ASCA intend to do on this route with essentially no original bolts?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 11, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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Stevie, I like that cheshire cat grin just now.
I see in Reid 1998 there are FIVE bolts shown at top of #8 even. Maybe---- just thinking here--- they (ASCA) are going to need a backhoe.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 11, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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So what does the ASCA intend to do on this route with essentially no original bolts?
Interesting question. Even more reason to talk to the FA team.
I wonder what condition the route was in on the FFA, and how does the ASCA factor in these changes (if any).
BTW, is there a lot of fixed gear on P2? I remember just a pin or two in the arch.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2010 - 02:49am PT
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So what does the ASCA intend to do on this route with essentially no original bolts? Nothing at all until we get a solid consensus!
It can be tough on routes where pitons were key and may not be replaceable by nuts and cams. BUT, I think the spirit of the FA party is pretty clear from this quote:
After three pitches more or less straight up, there was Herbert belaying in slings just below an excellent ledge. He wasn't on the ledge because it lacked anchors.
That pretty much sums up the attitude of the FA party - and I think the attitude these days is different. So it will be an interesting continuing discussion...
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 12:15am PT
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I climbed the route about a zillion years ago with Brian Povolny (OK, perhaps around 1988?) and recall it being superb! I followed the first pitch, remember the climbing past the two bolts to be desperate. The second pitch I ended up aiding up a bit off the belay because the pro seemed really bad...right off the belay. If there are bolts there now that is fine with me! And higher up that pitch had some dicey knifeblades that if still there must be awful. The rest of the climb seemed fine. And yes, I also recall that anchor in the middle of hard and excellent climbing up higher that most certainly did not need to be there...
Hope this helps in some way...I'd love to climb it again!
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cultureshock
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Jul 13, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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Just saw these over in the route beta section. Looks like a topo someone drew up from a recent ascent. Perhaps Pitu could chime in with details.
Really Pretty topos!
Luke
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 24, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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Consensus Bump...
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 25, 2010 - 12:04am PT
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So far, we have at least four different standards for evaluating hardware renovation on west face:
1. Adhere to the concept of the FA: An aid climb, with pitons, and one bolt. Maybe that original bolt would be replaced with a new 1/4 incher, to make it authentic. New teams would carry hammers and pins. For most teams, this would probably become an aid climb again, or some mix of free and aid.
2. Adhere to the concept of the route as left by the FFA: A free climb, with at least one bolt and an unknown number of fixed pins. That would mean replacing some quantity of the old fixed pins (as they were in 1979)with new pin bolts. Does anyone have a reliable topo of the 1979 FFA? Which pins where? (The topo I saw in 1982 had a lot of fixed pins.)
3. Remove the one bolt (since at least one team aid-climbed the route without it) to create a boltless Cap VI. This would be the most aggressive solution, returning the wall to an aid climb, with perhaps occasional free ascents (5.11R? or X?)
4. Retrofit the route to make it a cleaner, more reliable version of the free climb that most teams currently do. Probably replace some or most of the existing fixed hardware with newer, beefy versions.
Each of these standards or goals or sets of criteria conflicts with the others.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 25, 2010 - 02:17am PT
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I haven't done the climb, but by all accounts the rock on the route is fairly featured. Perhaps it would make sense for some reliable climbers to go up and have a good look at the key pitches, perhaps on rappel. The hope being to see if there is a free line that is 5.11 or so, that more or less follows the original route (minor variations acceptable), that is reasonably protected with decent belays, but that does not require more than the original bolt (if that), and needs few if any fixed pins.
It seems worth a try. If nothing else, it might define the possibilities a bit better. "Time spent in reconnaisance is never wasted" - military maxim.
You could even then sit down with Royal and TM, and ask what they think makes sense.
Does anyone actually do the route as an aid climb any more? Apart from pulling/hanging on a piece here or there? How about rappellers, e.g. in thunderstorms? Is that enough of a concern that some fixed belays might be appropriate, even if they weren't needed on the FA?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 31, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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So, let's continue to gather perspectives to see what this route may offer before inertia leads to the Plastic Expolding Inevitable...LOL
From Mountain #79 May/June 1981.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 17, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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The only pitch on the whole route that needs any help is the second pitch.
The rest of the route is just standard climbing ......
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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Oct 17, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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Hey, I didn't notice this thread till now.
A friend and I climbed this route in 2008. He's a mega-hardman, and had done it a zillion times, and retreated off it at least once. He never liked the anchor situation. They were sketch, sometimes not in the best place, and people left manky anchors all over the route, and to the sides of it, when retreating.
With these factors in mind, we made sure there was at least one good bolt at every anchor up to the last 5.11 pitch, and removed a bunch of the nasty rusty stopper and tat anchors left by bailers.
After that, you could belay in comfortable spots with at least one bomber bolt, and rap the route in complete safety(with two ropes, I think), without leaving a bunch of garbage behind.
After reading this, and talking to Eric Bissell just now, who did the route a month ago...it sounds like our bolts may have been chopped, possibly even the one we put at the pitch 7 belay, which did not have good gear to back up the 1/4 incher. There is a loose flake there that will fall off someday. Just cuz a cam will hang off the wall does not mean it will hold anything! I find it hard to believe that someone chopped the good bolt and left the bad bolt...and maybe they didn't.
Also, and I mentioned this on another thread once, most modern yosemite hardmen believe this route to be 11d/.12a if you skip the anchor (that SHOULD be removed!!!) at THE crux move.
Good luck Greg.
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cultureshock
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Apr 25, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
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Anyone been up there recently? Current anchor situation?
Also any comments on route wetness... Guessing it might not be dry for a while...
Thanks!
Luke
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 25, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
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The anchor bolt at the end of original pitch 7 is the only original and by definition necessary bolt. While a couple of holes may have become needed to avoid blown placements, the rest are all convenience or chicken bolts. It's a shame. Some thought really needs to go into cleaning up and restoring this route before every indiscretion is immortalized in stainless steel, IMO.
dittos, steve. when wason and i ran up it in '87 the only bolt i can clearly recall clipping was that mank stinker 3/4 of the way up the 5.11b/c finger crack pitch. might have been a belay bolt or two on the first two pitches? fuzzy memory. but if new bolts are popping up, i say nuke 'em.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 25, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
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Thanks for the bump Bob.
As this is the accessible free route up El Cap, proper respect and consideration really need to go into it's maintenance.
A boltless Grade VI is a rare and wonderful thing. Royal and TM did their best on the FA and almost pulled it off. We owe them our best effort as a community to maintain that high standard moving forward. Convenience bolts really have no place on this proud climb and perhaps neither does a haulbag anymore.
Strong and competant parties doing the route in the near future should weigh in on keeping the route as pristine as possible.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 26, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
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Bump for further discussion...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 27, 2012 - 12:23am PT
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Here's an overly detailed topo / notes that I drew in 1999.
It shows the conditions that were probably in effect before Jake's cleanup.
Sorry it's a little wide, but it shows the details much better than pitu's
stylized topo.
You can see how in the past, people just added 1/4" bolts at belays when
they thought the old ones looked bad. For example, the 5 bolts at (8).
Nowadays we know to remove the old bolts instead of adding more and more holes.
It was good to read that Jake and his partner worked to clean this up.
I don't think a return to the exact fixed gear style of the first ascent is desirable,
unless people think there should be a return to nailing on this route.
It's a similar situation to the Salathe' Wall,
where the route was originally nailed,
and over time it has been semi-randomly adapted to people climbing with nuts and cams.
In its summer season this climb is subject to thunderstorms.
So I think it's natural to have rappel anchors from (8) back to the ground,
but I don't think there should be a 2-bolt belay at the end of every pitch above that.
It's a great route - get out and do it, Luke, if you haven't already.
[Edit to add:]
Steve is of course not advocating a return to nailing on this climb.
My point was just intended to say that if placing/removing pitons is ruled out (as most would agree should be),
for several of the fixed anchors you will want fixed pitons or bolts.
(Relatively few trees, flakes and fixed nut options at belays on this climb
in the "retreat zone" through p8).
For example: anchor at top of p1: it's a bolt. Pitons would also work,
if they could be maintained. Nuts can cams wouldn't be very good.
Since fixed pitons can't be easily maintained (unless people bring hammers),
(stainless steel) bolts are the standard for fixed anchors.
There likely exists a wide range of opinion on where fixed anchors (pro and belay) should or shouldn't exist on this climb.
So ASCA will likely never be in a position to do anything here;
we prefer to avoid controversy and there is plenty of non-controversial work to do.
As a result, it's up to folks like Jake and his partner to do the cleanup.
(And others to chop, if they feel so inclined).
Such is life in the jungle....
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 27, 2012 - 12:36am PT
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what exactly would we do here? try to work out the placement of each fixed pin on the ffa and replace each with a pin bolt? or bolt?
given the route's history as an aid route (i watched a team nailing it in the early eighties), it would be difficult to re-establish the "original" state of the route. whose memories would we trust? and why?
how about a best, reasonable guess at likely points of fixed pro for a period ffa? that alone would be a pretty moving target. but it's the 21st century, so bolts or pin bolts would seem better choices than pins.
steve's suggestion that this should be a candidate for an all bootless route is intriguing. but bolts are less horrific (for free routes) than once they were. fifty years on, most of us have come to think that the damage by pins is often worse (and less reparable) on a free route than the damage of a bolt. easy enough to yank a bolt, fill the hole, and blend it over. pin scars and flake fractures can be more permanent. different on aid routes, where measuring and finagling the right piece of removable iron is part of the challenge. but we're way past the point where we think of pins as greener than bolts.
do we make best possible ascent the model? it's obviously solo able, for someone willing to hang it out on insecure but comparatively moderate ground. does that mean we should chop all the metal?
difficult issue--
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Oct 22, 2012 - 11:38am PT
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Doug and I are doing it wall style. We have fixed and hauled to the top of 4. We will go back up when the weather clears. We have found new bolts/hangers. The ones at the top of the 1st pitch are stamped ASCA. Because of back cleaning I could not tell if the new hangers at the top of 3 are stamped ASCA. We are not carrying a bolt kit because there is no ASCA bolt replacement work to be done on this route. (Only 1 first ascent bolt) I checked with Greg and these bolts were not authorized by the ASCA. I don't chop anything, but I have been known to replace ASCA hangers with non-ASCA hangers:-)
Roger
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cruise
Big Wall climber
boone
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:43am PT
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I have climbed this route 3 times in the last 2 months and am responsible for the new anchors. only anchors were replaced and new slings were added around block at top of pitch 3. This took place during the week of Yosemite face lift. the anchors were super shitty many with 3-5 button head bolts that were real old. The route is awesome and quite the adventure. (only anchors were replaced).
-Cruz
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Oct 24, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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Don't get me wrong, I will love those bolted anchors:-) It is just when non first ascent bolts are replaced using ASCA hangers it places the ASCA right in the middle of the "bolt Wars" I have placed bolts at fixed pin anchors this season because these anchors had issues and needed to be bolted, but I did it using my own stuff. The ASCA survives on donations and much of that donated money is raised because of the strict standards the ASCA follows. It is pretty basic; "First ascent bolts only, nothing added nothing chopped." That said, thanks Cruz for your hard work. Carrying all the extra stuff it takes to pull, patch, and replace bolts up that approach would probably kill me.
Roger
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Oct 24, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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More ASCA retrobolts?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 24, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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Johnkelley-
This is california, tons of hot girls, great weather, and the basic human right to clip into bolts at every belay.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 24, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
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More ASCA retrobolts?
Not after Roger corrects them.
It should be fairly clear from the discussion above that we ASCA folks know the West Face is a sensitive area and we don't want to create controversy / negative reactions.
Plenty of original bolts to fix on other climbs with ASCA hangers.
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cultureshock
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Just wanted to post an update for all those getting on the route. We just climbed the first 7 or 8 (depending on how you count) and rapped off.
Clint's topo (see next post) shows a very accurate representation of the route. I'll give a pitch by pitch description of the route as of 9/2013.
All belays up to the big ledge after the 11c steep finger crack (P8 in clint's topo) are setup for rappeling and have new 3/8" bolts.
P1. 3 lead bolts and a handful of pitons to a two bolt belay. The first bolt is a 1/4"er but you quickly clip a solid 3/8" bolt. This section is 5.11 and doesn't offer any other type of protection. There is an enhanced hook placement in the vicinity of the two bolts which might be how it was aid climbed previously. The 3rd bolt is new and the anchor is two bolts set up for rappel.
P2. 3 lead bolts and a bunch more pitons. The first bolt helps protect the belay and while pitons could be used here, the bolt is in a good place and bomber. You can get some gear in the rising traverse but the pitons still provide crucial pro. If they were to pull-out in a fall, the result would not be catastrophic. Two bolts protect the final face climbing section. The supertopo marks this 11c, but it is much easier. Clint's topo says 10b. I say split the difference. The first bolt is bomber and the second bolt is a euro style pin bolt (see photo below). I didn't know how to pull out the pin bolt, so someone more skilled will have to replace it. Since the bottom bolt is good, the crappy pin bolt is not super dangerous. You are very soon at the P2 anchor, which has three solid bolts.
P3. No lead bolts. This pitch ends at a slung block with a new bolt that has a chain on it. The slings on the block are a newish and connected to the bolt and chain with a big quicklink. You can easily throw in a #1 camalot to belay.
P4 This short pitch can be linked with the next one. There are two new bolts at the "optional belay" shown on the supertopo. These currently have piece of cord and a few biners for rappel. You don't even need to use these bolts since you can link P4+P5 on the way up. Perhaps these are here for the aid route that goes up the big arch?
P5. Another bolt free pitch with amazing face climbing. End at a large sloping ledge with two shiny bolts. There are not really any good places for gear here. The bolts seem pretty logical.
P6. I'm not really sure where P6 is as marked on Clint's topo. There is a pin on this pitch, but it does not seem like a logical place to belay. We did the mega pitch ,70m rope required, from the P5 ledge to the P7 anchor (another big ledge). There is currently a fixed head protecting the 11c crux on this pitch. You can place gear below the fixed head and the fall here is clean.
Above the fixed head is a single newish 1/4" bolt with a long sling on it. Between the head and the bolt you may be able to get a small nut in the corner. We cleaned out 3 fixed nuts, two of which had blown rusted cables. I say the 1/4 incher should stay or be upgraded. It has a nice SMC hanger and the long piece of cord allows you to clip it to backup the fixed head. A piton perhaps could go in somewhere but would take away a handhold (which are in serious shortage at this point). The bolt is currently in a weird place, thus the long piece of cord. If it were replaced I would put it lower so you can clip it from the good stance right above the fixed head.
P7 As mentioned above this is best linked with P6 if you have a 70m rope. End on a good ledge with two bolts with chains.
P8. There are a bunch of fixed pins on this pitch (the steep 11c fingers) as well as a fixed head protecting some face climbing above the crux. The fixed head is backed up easily with a cam a few feet below. This pitch ends at a big ledge which currently has two 3/8" bolts on the right side. A few feet above these bolts is a random hangerless 3/8" bolt, that perhaps could be used if you had a rivet hanger.
We pulled out the extraneous 1/4" bolts on the P8 ledge and patched up a bunch of other holes on the route from previous re-bolting efforts. We only climbed up to P8. So you will have to depend on other reports for the conditions of bolts above P8. Anchors are all solid and the current 1/4" lead bolts are all in places where there is other bomber protection either soon after or right before. I take personal responsibility for removing extra bolts and patching holes. These actions were not sponsored by or associated with the ASCA. I wanted to have a look at this route and am now happy to have removed a bunch of junk from the route so that it is cleaner and better equipped for the next party.
I can understand how this route used to have many less bolts, but that would require a leader to bring a hammer and place pitons along the way. This is no longer a reasonable expectation. This route should be climbed more often and removing anchor bolts, where there are no other protection options, seems unreasonable. Sure you could build gear anchors mid pitch, but it much more logical to belay on natural ledges.
Currently there are 22 bolts in the first 8 pitches 15 are at anchor stations with 7 used for protection. There are at least 20+ pitons on these pitches.
As it stands in the case of a storm you can rappel the route from P8. Be aware that you can easily get your rope stuck on face holds along the way. Don't plan on just going up to do the first 8. The approach and rappeling took us more time than climbing the first 8 pitches.
You need two 60m ropes to bail from P8. with an 80m rope you can bail from P3. With a 70m rope you can bail from P2. In both cases you have to swing accross from the P2 to P1 anchor.
Rap Lengths:
P8->P7 35 m
P7->P5 60 m
P5->P4 30-35 m
P5->P3 55 m
P3->P2 40m
P2->P1 30-35 m
P2-> Ground 60 m
P1-> Ground 35 m
Have fun!
Luke
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cultureshock
Trad climber
Mountain View
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All pitch numbers referenced in the post above refer to this topo:
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Just climbed this route yesterday. A few thoughts re: this statement:
"As this is the accessible free route up El Cap, proper respect and consideration really need to go into it's maintenance.
A boltless Grade VI is a rare and wonderful thing. Royal and TM did their best on the FA and almost pulled it off. We owe them our best effort as a community to maintain that high standard moving forward. Convenience bolts really have no place on this proud climb."
I would add pitons and heads (as would be required to belay on several ledges) to the list of items that no longer have a place on this proud rock climb. As such, the bolted anchors at obvious ledges are appropriate. Calling them 'convenience anchors' is to uphold a ridiculous standard: are the proud standard-bearing free climbers of today really meant to build hanging anchors in the middle of many pitches, thereby effectively returning aid climbing (i.e.hanging belays) to the route, simply in order to avoid belaying on natural ledges in the manner of the first party? What do we really owe those guys?
In 1967, the tools of the trade were rather limited,as was the first ascentionists' desire to spend many rainy days on the route equipping it for a difficult-to-imagine future of hammerless climbers pushing the route free in a day. Nevertheless, this is the day in which we now live. Honoring the vision of those guys (who are still around) is a nice idea. However, as Roger B. says, whatever the charms of the route BITD, it is now a free route, and hanging belays in corners below big ledges that happen to be crackless would lend little charm to the route.
Clipping into bolted belays in no way diminished my appreciation for the efforts of the FA party. Advocating for the removal of these anchors is to ignore the nature of the route in favor of slavish devotion to an idea that exists in a theoretical vacuum.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Sonora
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^^^^
I could not agree more! I hope you had fun, Rob
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Lots of fun, both types. Apparently I haven't climbed anything longer than about half a rope since last fall.
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