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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 17, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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A few weekends back I finally followed on Reed's Direct, 5.9. It had been quite some time that I had looked up at this line drooling with hunger and hoping to climb it as soon as possible. Everytime we'd line up at the Reed's Parking lot, it ended up that we'd go some other direction, leaving the Direct Route for some other day.
Finally, on the 5th of June I got my chance. I had led a few 5.8s in the Valley and I felt like I was ready. I kept looking up at the line thinking, "Hey, it doesn't look so bad." I remember a few people told me that it was pumpy and that the first pitch I could definitely lead. The second pitch, I might have a hard time on it. I figured I'd lead the first and see how I felt and then let my friend lead the second if I wasn't feeling it.
Man, was I in for a wake up call. The first pitch start wasn't even possible. I put in protection, tried to jam my toe into any part of the crack to get some purchase, and nothing. My hands couldn't get a decent jam, unless it was way high up and then I was over extended with no leverage. I finally said, "I can't do this."
So, my friend racked up, set a couple of pieces to protect a fall on that crazy slab that would break your tail if you fell on it and took off. He called, "off belay" in a few minutes and it was my turn to follow. I wasn't even sure if I could follow after that poor psychological performance. I finally figured it out and took off. The climbing was relatively easy after that.
Then our 3rd came up and we thought, cool, let's go down. But, apparently our first had a vendetta with the second pitch and said, "well, people are coming up, looks like I'll have to go!" I thought, "great...not really..."
After some serious hangdogging, gear dropping, a single whipper and some major communication issues, he made it up.
Awesome lead nonetheless.
The rope started moving up and then it came tight. Then three tugs..."now what? My turn?" I couldn't even hear him. "Well, here goes nothing." Even the start had me shaking...I looked up at the first placement and couldn't even remember how he moved above it. At least there were feet. Slowly, I started moving up. "Ok, this isn't so bad...the jams are there, just move up slowly and get used to the height and vertical line." One-third of the way up, "ok...getting a little tired. He sure jammed these hexes in really well and hung on them for a while."
About half-way up I realized I was working way too hard and I had almost no energy left and my arms felt like battery acid was coursing through them. I don't know if it was because mid-week I had done a heavy and intense back workout with biceps thrown in, or thursday I had done a hard climbing workout at the gym with my buddy finishing with several laps on a 10a for good burn, or the fact that I continued to boulder in the Mammoth area on Friday but my forearms and hands felt as if they would spontaneously combust into fireballs. I didn't think I could make it...
Every few feet up, I'd look at a good spot to get a good hand jam and think, "Maybe if i get to that spot, it looks like there might be a rest." No such luck. Finally, I got to the third to last placement below the rest ledge. "My god...I have nothing left. I can't even pull the piece out. I see that there are three pieces clipped together, he must have been so tired that he didn't bother to unclip the other two...I have no strength left...I can't even pull the hex out...I am not going to make it..."
But I did...finally mustered the strength and energy to pull myself up onto the ledge, battling the rope drag from the directional that my friend had placed because he ran out of pieces for the OW. I took the easy way up after that. And I was thankful to have made it up.
A while back a friend took me on this crazy, burly 5.8 to humble me a little. He said that 5.8 could be hard. I agree. But, I think he would have had better luck humbling me had he taken me up this monster, the Direct Route. Believe me, I was humbled.
The next day I thought would be restful easy climbing, but no...we had to go to Generator Crack
But someone did say that Reed's Direct is probably the most sandbagged climb in the Valley. Is it? If not, which climb is?
I am afraid to try .10a...sort of...not really...but I'll never look at a climb again and say, "that doesn't look so hard."
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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What's wrong with this photo? Apart from the tube socks, that is.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
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Quicksilver
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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Is that Rick Cashner? He's climbing solo with a boom box. Badass!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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It's Werner.
Nice post!
Glad you made it man. Keep after it.
I have always loved that pitch. Some days it feels like 5.9 d, other days not so much. Course now with a few extra pounds on my ass, it's probably 5.10.....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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I'll second Quicksilver, Reed's seems okay for the "old school" grade.
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scuffy b
climber
Eastern Salinia
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
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Reed's Direct (2nd pitch is good, solid, 5.9, on the tiring side.
It's always been considered one of the standards, so how can it be
sandbagged? By the way, that is quite an awkward construction.
Climbers are sandbagged, not climbs. And that means someone lied to you
about a climb, told you it was easier than the reality.
But, really, that pitch is 5.9.
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Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
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Way to get after it! Yes that is classic 5.9, but also an example of the limitations of any numerical system. You will find 5.10's that are easier to accomplish, but Reeds really is 5.9, especially once you get some more advanced technique, keeping the arms straight, reaching through to palm the wall to support moving your feet up, rather than just hanging off your hand jams, etc.
For the record, when I was a 15 year old punk, I lead a number of 5.10's and even a couple of 5.11 face routes in the meadows that summer, but was pretty "psyched up", (read kinda gripped), about leading the second pitch for the first time.
Peter
ps. for a good sandbag, I always loved the Fish Crack as "the hardest 5.11" Even though it is rated 5.12b these days, I will always call it the "hardest 5.11"
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
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Worst Sandbag?
Reed's direct?
not by a longshot, though most .10's Are easier than the Second pitch. The first pitch barely rates 5.9
Generator Crack?
Hey, .10c is 10c
Mason your asking the wrong question, you need to learn the grades before you decide what you want them to be. Gotta Crawl before you can run.
Start out with a nice 5.7, Fatman's Chimney, Washington column. Don't do Reed's direct until you can climb that one.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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i burned out on a couple pitches of reed's once as a discovery channel crew moved in to film dean potter casually cruise up and down the thing as though it was what he did every morning before breakfast. he didn't bring a boombox, though. what a weenie, huh? or is that dean?
royal robbins 5.9 = approx. 5.10b
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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I would follow that chick up Generator.
But there's a good reason she's only a few feet off the dirt.....
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scuffy b
climber
Eastern Salinia
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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yeah, the photographer was probably kinda nervous...
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
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Thanks guys, I was a little out of shape from not climbing since JTree in November so I probably should have gotten some easier stuff under my belt before I got on it, but it was a great climb and I'm glad I got it.
I'm not trying to say one climb or another is sandbagged, just wondering if anyone else agrees. I think all Valley climbs are rated much easier than they really are. I've only climbed a handful of Valley stuff but most everything I've climbed was harder than the rating suggested.
I guess I agree that Reed's is 5.9, but a very draining 5.9 because I didn't know how to rest and where to rest, and as mentioned, use proper techniques to leverage my body movement up the rock. The jams were all good...I just hung on my left arm way too long.
Lesson learned.
Btw, I'd be happy just belaying that chick on Generator.
Oh, and now I understand Werner a little better I think. How did he climb that thing with a boom box...clip the boom box somewhere?
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
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jaybro--- bwahahaha
Mason, I still have scars (just physical ones) from the second pitch of Reeds Direct. Won't go back and do that one again until I am sending most 5.10s I try. I loved, loved, loved the first pitch, though. I think that is the most perfectly sized crack for my hands. If anyone knows others just like it, please post up!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:48pm PT
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Good job, Mason.
Take Jaybro's advice about grades. Keep doing the 7.s and .8's until you have no problems with them and are super comfy placing gear and falling on it.
At some point you can leave behind my old advice about learning to place/climb on gear. "Just don't fall and you got no problems".
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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No one ever asks why Werner was carrying a boom box in the first place, on the second pitch of Reed's 3D or elsewhere. It was pre-Walkmen/IPods, but that isn't the reason.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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I've never found the valley to be sandbagged. Sure, that wide stuff feels stiff for the grades, but it always does. Other climbs feel harder than they are because the pitches are long and sustained.
If'n you venture out into the provinces you'll see some real sand bagging.
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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Thanks Blue.
Fattrad, thank you. I don't think it's so much that I'm trying to rush through the grades, but I just see a line that looks really nice and really fun to climb and I want to climb it. The grade deters me if anything. I'm glad our ropegun was up to the challenge.
Daphne, I still have a scab on my hand because I didn't tape up. Pretty nasty!
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:59pm PT
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mighty hiker we know the reason. a man who could hear wouldn't need a boom box. reed's is no sandbag it's just a real good little climb. now you know what 5.9 is.
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scuffy b
climber
Eastern Salinia
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Jun 17, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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For the amplification?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 17, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
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he used the bass line as a spot...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 17, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
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Ahab 10bma "My Ass"
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
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Led this earlier this year, definitely 5.9. Locker jam to locker jam. But tiring! Wait till you squirm up the 3rd pitch! Hardest part of the 2nd pitch for me was not losing my cams in the gaping abyss behind the crack.
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
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last weekend we climbed with Salamanizer - Plumb Line on Elephants and both agreed, that last pitch there which rated 5.8 -is mother of all sandbags. It actually felt harder than mentioned above Reeds p3, Ahab and Cleft. I'll try to compile TR for Plumb Line soon - it is hidden gem
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scuffy b
climber
Eastern Salinia
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Jun 17, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
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Good point, Alexey, I think there are other pitches out there which are
drastically underrated, but don't get the attention because they aren't
the hardest pitch on their climb.
Plumb Line (if it actually got any traffic, anyway) would be subjected to
a lot of scrutiny about the rating of the 5.10d pitch, but the "lesser"
pitches can be wildly off.
Big congrats on doing that climb.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 17, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
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The mother of all sandbags is at Carderrock....
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
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What is the opposite of sandbag? Would that be Jamcrack p2 5.9?
There is no beta info on Plumb Line that I could find. Where is it exactly?
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flakyfoont
Trad climber
carsoncity nv
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Jun 17, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
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Mason , next time you do p2 ; aside from the great jams feel around inside for the hidden
incuts and edges. There really is no move harder than 5.9 on
that pitch. Save your energy and relax ... youll move easier.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 17, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
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I forgot about that one until you mentioned it the other day. Oye! And, I might add, an ambitious cool down for someone having done Astroman, the day before....
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 17, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
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There's this .10a next to Kaukulator, some Cashner/Reid thing I believe. HAF.
Hairline? Me nor my strong-ass buddy couldn't touch the thing, even though the crux looks like an easy lay-back ramp. WTF?
The Gauntlet. Right. Sez Kim Dao, you look at the thing and your arms explode. Same for Space Invader.
Anybody climb (and confirm Long's story) on Central Pillar o' Frenzy?
Also, I did some .10c up on Last Resort one time...Thasher!! (I'll find the name later when I can get my hands on a guidebook.)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 17, 2010 - 06:58pm PT
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I think all Valley climbs are rated much easier than they really are.
I think many climbs outside the valley are rated harder than they actually are. It's the Y.D.S.- yosemite decimal system, many of the defining (standard setting) climbs for the ratings are in Yosemite or Tahquitz.
I always thought the boombox was to drain extra energy out of Werner or else the solo would have been too easy for him.
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G Murphy
Trad climber
Oakland CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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Lost Arrow Chimney. Took me longer than the Salathe.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
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Gable/Willoh routes are usually somewhat sandbaggie but they try to rate routes in the 'old-school' fashion.
I had to bail off the 5.8 Mason was talking about in the OP. I was kinda silently chuckling at him when he bailed. I said, "give me the rack, I'll do this". Told kev that tape is for pussies....
After taking like 3 slider falls out of the OW awkward flare, I was done and needed massive amounts of beer and protein. I was blown!!!! I had to sit down and carb up.
Some day, Kev/Eric will publicize that route.
Same day I did onsight a 'real 5.9' clip up they did. Short and sweet.
They put up good routes!
EDIT: Kev, God bless him, knew I was a better friction/slab climber and suggested I try the 5.9er. That 5.8 is an ass-kicker though. The BAWC should do it. I think Ed has.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 17, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
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"I think all Valley climbs are rated much easier than they really are"
You don't climb outside much, do you? or east of California?
experience is a cool thing.....
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 17, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
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Experience is a COOL thing.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 17, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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It's always been considered one of the standards, so how can it be
sandbagged?
Well the other routes are no longer rated to that standard. I would have no problem with it being a standard if it actually was. But ratings are like language, words get meaning from how people use them currently, not how they are defined in some dusty tomb.
But the real problem is the notion of rating a climb from the hardest move. The OP might think the second pitch to be 5.9 if he only had to climb 8' of it a time (with longer rests than a few minutes of hangdogging). I would prefer climbs to get a rating for the hardest move and a different rating for the overall lead.
The first pitch has a stiff, off fingers/squeeze hand move. That comes down to a very specific technique, but I don't know that it is really sandbagged.
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Chief
climber
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Jun 17, 2010 - 08:20pm PT
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Orangutan Arch @ 11b.
The Cringe was fluff by comparison.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 17, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
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before I did it the first time I was told it is 5.8 that feels like 5.10. The jams are pretty solid you got to admit.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 17, 2010 - 08:35pm PT
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¿The first pitch has a stiff, off fingers/squeeze hand move?
-it does? high on the pitch? Low? i did it four or five times six months ago and don't recall this...seemed like a lite enduro pitch with no crux... was one of my first .9 leads in the early/mid 70's, i had no idea how to jam, then...
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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Jaybro,
No, I haven't climbed outside much. I first started rock climbing with Blue at Castle Rock last year in July 2009. He showed me how to place a few pieces and build an anchor. Labor Day was my first ever trad lead in the valley. Climbed a little more through November in places like Tahoe and Jtree. Then winter and didn't climb again til May.
My first gym climb was last month cuz my friend needed a partner.
Radical,
I'm stoked to run laps on Reeds in the fall! Experience is cool/good which is why I'm trying to climb like a madman! Anything and everything!
Edit: ok I agree stuff outside the valley is rated harder than it is. Some 5.10s I feel are ego boosts at CRSP more than anything else.
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Scott Cole
Trad climber
Sunny California
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Jun 17, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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There are no sandbags in the valley. It's the "Yosemite Decimal System".
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 17, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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Mason-
You simply encountered an "old school 5.9" which is a bit like getting zapped. Newer climbs sometimes take the overall continuous nature into determining a grade--how pumped you get--lack of rests, etc. "Old school 5.9" means that's the difficulty of the hardest move on the pitch.
You're moving fast up the difficulty ladder, and sometimes it's hard to realize that simply "making the moves" isn't the whole story. We've all gotten "gripped" by a climb(s) that were at our physical limits, and then start using more strength than we need, not breathing smoothly, rushing moves, and not recognising good rests when we have them. This is part of becoming a superior climber--learning to handle ourselves when we have "gotten in a bit over our heads." I've been there, as have most if not all of the others posting on this thread.
P.S. Try to ENJOY your climbs more; savor them like a fine old cognac.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 17, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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I find that success at the grades in the valley is attributed to climbing a LOT in the valley.
Don't climb there for a month....5.8 feels hard.
Climb there for a week or two....no worries.
Dedicate your next 3 weekends to valley cracks, you might be surprised at how comfortable you will be on the sharp end.
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climbingbuzz
Trad climber
SF, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
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Dang, I thought Reed's was way hard the first time I led it. Super pumpy. I haven't been on it in a long time, but I bet there's plenty of 10a that feels easier.
I might have to go with Ahab or that squeeze on LA chimney. You really don't need any big gear on LA Chimney. I mean, come on, it's 5.9. So I get to the squeeze and I can't move up the thing and the gear seems way below me. Partner is wondering what the heck is going on as I start to lose progress and slide down. Turns out I had scared myself so far in the squeeze I couldn't move up. Once I scooted out a bit it wasn't bad.
Thinking more...maybe the exit pitch from the LA notch. It does say "not recommended" in the guide, but come on, how bad could it be? Well, it is the most sandbagged piece of junk in the Valley. Dirty, crumbly, mossy and one awkward scary wide section with no gear. At least that was my impression of it climbing it in the dark after doing LA direct as the season opener.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
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Jeeezz...people are saying Reeds is super pumpy. When you hand jam you use large muscle groups. Hand jams and using your feet equals 0 pump. Well, maybe not 0.
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jfailing
Trad climber
A trailer park in the Sierras
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
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I didn't know Christopher Walken was into climbing?
It may initially seem that a lot of climbs in the valley are sandbagged, but it's just a much different style of climbing than you're probably used to. It takes a few trips to get used to it. I felt way more sandbagged at Joshua Tree than I have in the valley.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
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Whatever works, it's not pumpy.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:36pm PT
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Sometimes Reputations make things harder, because you expect harder.
It's not really that hard, it just has a fat rep.
Just climb the line in front of you. Nothing else matters.
You tell me if you thought it was hard, after.
Cheers.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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BITD it didn't have a reputation and that was before cams changed crack climbing forever.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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Agreed. When I started, you were Light if you couldn't Lead Reed's.
Some of us were still light, even though we could.
You decide.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
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The analogy to this post is Gunks climbers waxing on about "High Exposure."
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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Brokedown - that's really good advice. I'm trying to slow down, work on my breathing, and concentrate on my feet more when I climb. I'll do my best.
Mucci, as luck would have it I'll be in the valley/tulalame for a few weeks in a row!
Jim, everyone - I tried to jam and stand on my feet so I could rest but two things would happen: the jams were more like cams in tapering notches so it felt harder than it should have been, and when I tried to stand on my left foot the crack spat me out forcing me to hang off to the right of the crack on my hand...It felt like a right leaning crack.
This must be due to lack of technique. Or at the time, I figured that is why everyone said it was pumpy!
Edit: I didn't even know it had a rep until after I climbed it. I just remember looking at it the first time thinking, man that's a cool looking line!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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Memory kicking back in, Mason, you're right, weird jams makes it harder, keep on truckin and you'll be kicking butt.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
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gotta hang off yer bones instead of yer muscles Mason
That sounds weird, but it's true. He means to let your arms extend, not in the arm wrestling position, and use extension and locking off you arms.
Hard to describe on on a computer...Use low handjams, work you feet, and proceed.
I haven't done the route....now I have to.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
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The Warbler is Wise.....I'd heed his word.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
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the first pitch is really only about the first move getting oriented in the crack, you gotta lean out there and swing a bit to get straight up facing the crack.
The second pitch is all about relaxing. Those are bomber hands and the one foot in the crack is just as bomber (for those that haven't been up there, the crack isn't really parallel but kind of "wavy"). It's steep, but really solid. For this one, don't do the Mark Hudon thing ("i'm badass"), do the Werner thing ("become one with the Universe, specifically at one with pitch 2 of Reed's Direct")
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
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That Bolte is pretty wise, too!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
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was one of my first .9 leads in the early/mid 70's, i had no idea how to jam, then...
Dang Jaybro, you laid that thing back?? Musta been hard to pro. You R the man!
Personally, I think the bouldering is stupid hard in Yosemite. I did, like, a V0- and thought I was gonna puke.
And yeah, Hairline by sunset. That will be nice. Crazy approach though (I don't think you can get to it from below.)
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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Aye, Jaybro. The Bolte knows, huh?
I'm listening. Oh, yeah.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
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Yall makin me feel good about my onsight of this climb (all 3 pitches). Then while I was there surfer bob shows up and solos it 8 or 9 times in a row. Amazing.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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Then while I was there surfer bob shows up and solos it 8 or 9 times in a row. Amazing.
Why would you do that??? Really.
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2010 - 12:15am PT
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I'll definitely start practicing hanging off da bones more. I like the palming the rock and being at one with the rock mantra. Blue you'd like the route. I'm not leading it tho.
I'm still waiting for the full Werner boombox story. Seriously how do you climb with a big boombox in one hand up that thing?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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Seriously how do you climb with a big boombox in one hand up that thing?
It's a secret bird trick that requires many years in the business.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 18, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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So Mason, old chap, I'm guessing that you wore your usual shoes on Reed's? Slippers, or something about as flimsy? And you had awful sore tootsie-wootsies for most of the climb?
Guess what? A pair of moderately stiff board-lasted shoes will help. Sure, some climb wide cracks in slippers, but they're few and far between. For anything hand sized and up, it's best to use rock shoes with some support. They may not be quite as sensitive - but that's the point. Slippers are for Cinderella, and when you want to be sensitive and new-aged.
Acopa makes some good all-round shoes which should help.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 18, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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And you WILL Lead it, Mason.
Just not today. Give it Time.
All good. It's not a sandbag. When you lead it, you will agree.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 12:56am PT
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Well put captain.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Jun 18, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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that pitch kicked my ass...should have done it when I was younger
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2010 - 01:25am PT
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Anders, I was wearing the Acopa legends, hence the problems with toe jamming on the start of the first pitch. I kept getting my foot stuck on the second pitch...what a pain in the ass!
Cappy, I believe you, actually no, not sure bc it was pretty hard.
Werner, I googled secret bird trick and got nothing but tricks for parrots so I'm ready for some tutelage (punishment?).
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Jun 18, 2010 - 01:34am PT
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No single move is that hard but it's steep and sustained. I got pumped. If you know to reach in for that bomber jam at the crux, that move isn't that bad. I thought p2 on Reed's was much harder than p1 on Outer Limits.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 18, 2010 - 01:50am PT
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I wonder what route in the Valley is the biggest sandbag?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 18, 2010 - 01:54am PT
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After six. Haha!
Or maybe Yosemite Point Butress Direct.
Best choss climbing in the Valley.
Though that Column route, hmmmmmm.
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Chief
climber
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Jun 18, 2010 - 02:07am PT
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OK, right after the Orangutan Arch I'd nominate the Harding Slot at 5.9 or whatever it is.
Horrendous every time!
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Jun 18, 2010 - 02:09am PT
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I thought the 1st 2 pitches, both 5.9, of the Central Pillar of Frenzy were much harder than either of the 1st pitches of Reeds Direct.
When I climbed Reeds Direct (~1980) Werner came free soloing thru making it look about 3.0. He swung from side to side to perfectly torque his jams in.
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Al_T.Tude
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 02:20am PT
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After Six
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 18, 2010 - 03:30am PT
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I know most people on this thread are going to laugh... but the biggest sandbag in the Valley, the one that lures the most unsuspecting climbers based on its easy rating (the approach is practically in the parking lot) particularly beginners is over by Church Bowl and it's called "Uncle Fanny." It's only 5.6 but on a good day it spits out lots of folks who thought they were a whole lot more accomplished.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
not very much, recently.
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Jun 18, 2010 - 03:44am PT
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Ha! Years ago on a weekend when I was doing my first leads ever pretty much anywhere (Pine Line, first pitch of Jam Crack), I was feeling pretty good about myself after completing those two just fine. So I thought, let's do something easy that's a mulit-pitch (in theory... Ha ha!). So why not Aunt Fanny's Pantry? Well, I got confused about the routes, and ended up somehow on Uncle Fanny. I was freaking' out and didn't have gear for it or didn't know how to place well what I had. So I launched off to the right and let the face for about 15 or so feet. I wasn't a great face climber at the time (still ain't... maybe I'm the anti-gym climber?) but it felt better than what I was facing on Uncle. That 15 feet or so of face felt like ten miles, but I eventually reached a solid hold beneath some tree which I then belayed off of. After that, still felt pretty good about myself!
Ah, the adventures of the clueless!
Eric
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 18, 2010 - 04:14am PT
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Mason-
The advice given by another poster here regards using a stiffer shoe is good--it allows a much more secure and relaxed foot jam for a standing rest than a softer shoe.
I have 2 pairs of La Sportiva Mariachers that I get resoled. They're no longer made, but I firmly believe they were the all-time "best shoe" I have ever used. Especially for wider cracks. The toes were pretty tapered as well. The closest thing now is the TC Pro. Try a pair of those for fit--they are a wierd shape and some folks can't get them to fit. They do have the stiffness that is needed for fist-sized cracks (and larger--OW).
Re: "Uncle Fanny": it's pretty much on the mark to call it a sandbag at 5.6 or 5.7. I recall that I too did the lieback off to the right on my first go-round.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 05:21am PT
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I thought P2 Reeds Direct is the gold standard, not sandbagged but sustained. That said, first time on it I was happy to be following.
For me, most sandbagged = all 5.9 slab climbs! Just goes to show it's all about technique and experience/practice with the type of climbing.
I did P1 (5.8) of Quicksilver assuming it was easy approach to the bolted face above, and so I had a tiny rack. That pitch aged me. I haven't been back to try the higher pitches where the business begins. I'll be back with the right mindset at some point.
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Jun 18, 2010 - 06:24am PT
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"Hanging off your bones" is great advice. Maybe that is why I'm much better in cracks than face climbing, since I'm such a weakling! I think the 2nd pitch of Reeds is 5.9 as well, as long as your crack technique is good.
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Barry Bates
Boulder climber
Smith River CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 09:39am PT
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I think that the warbler is right about the left side of the Slack, I've done the route 5 times and each time it seemed to get harder not easier.
Although Klemons said it was a 5.7 squeeze chimney with hand jams in the back.
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2010 - 11:02am PT
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Werner came free soloing thru making it look about 3.0. He swung from side to side to perfectly torque his jams in.
Can you expand on that a little? It makes total sense, I'm picturing it in my head but need more input. I'm like Johnny 5.
Brokedown, I have the Legends which are pretty stiff, maybe too stiff? They kept getting stuck in parts of the crack.
Is After Six really harder? It seems like it's not as easy as the rating says, with some psychological moves higher up. I'd hate to get on it thinking, eh 5.6-5.7-5.8 and then get spanked 4 pitches up!
Aunt Fanny's Pantry btw is no "5.4"...it is much harder, be warned.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Jun 18, 2010 - 11:12am PT
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Quicksilver was the test piece of the guys I knew that was used to prove if you were solid on 5.10. I was not. I could lead a nice fat 5.10 crack. (And I thought Reeds was pretty easy compared to something wide like Tulgey Wood at Devils Tower)-but I wanted nothing to do with those long upward traverses- no matter how cool everyone looked in Meyers Yosemite Climber.
I also lead the first 5.8 pitch and that was about the most honest 5.8 ever. No move easier than 5.8 but totally sustained.
I very happily followed the 5.9 pitches- following,no move seemed that hard but there was a bit of space between the pieces- like about 50 feet! Neither leader or follower would want to fall.
The good thing is that you do not need much of a rack.
In a funny way the first move off the ground of Rixons West face- I tried that about 20 times and I could never do it. We did the route but I have no idea how I started it. 10a indeed!
There is a route on the Apron called Green Dragon that was 11b that I only heard of one person ever doing on their first try-I backed off of that one a few times on my way to Mr. Natural
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 18, 2010 - 11:14am PT
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Mason-
"Getting stuck" is a technique issue. It's like--putting a key into a lock. Turn your foot in to lock--turn your foot out to "unlock." Stiff shoes make this easier IMHO.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 18, 2010 - 11:39am PT
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Anybody done the Right Side of the Remnant? O.o. 2 5.11 buddies couldn't do this one. I just barelied it, yer gonna die style...
TM Herbert claims that Wilson Overhang has gotten steeper and harder over the years...(?)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 18, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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after six, first pitch could be it, or maybe it's just the most slippery and insecure for the grade.
For the record, TC Pro are not all that stiff. i've been climbing in them exclusively for a couple of months now in the valley. More support then a mythos, nothing at all like a Kaukulator...
Nonetheless if I was doing the second pitch of Reed's today they would be the shoes on my feet.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 18, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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The first pitch has a stiff, off fingers/squeeze hand move?
-it does? high on the pitch? Low? i did it four or five times six months ago and don't recall this...seemed like a lite enduro pitch with no crux... was one of my first .9 leads in the early/mid 70's, i had no idea how to jam, then...
The very first move stepping off the ledge is, if I recall correctly, around a .5~.75 camalot and then the crack quickly opens up. The OP said he couldn't do the first move of the first pitch.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 18, 2010 - 03:00pm PT
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The second pitch is strenuous and sustained for the grade. Sure, using your feet can make it easier. But the climb is relatively steep (for the grade) and the killer is the diagonal which means the right foot is out smearing on the face (or both feet are in the crack and your body leans).
The weird and offset crack isn't like jamming a desert splitter either.
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
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For me, most sandbagged = all 5.9 slab climbs! Nutjob, I am with you on it! And I would add 5.8 slabs too
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squatch
Boulder climber
santa cruz, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
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They kept getting stuck in parts of the crack.
BOMBER!!!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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The two climbs that seem to be popping up the most--Reed's Direct and Quicksilver--I gotta to disagree with. The second pitch of Reed's is 5.9, bottom line. Having said that, while I really like crack and don't resort to tape, I don't like that pitch. It's just painful. It's got those wierd pods that dig into the nerves in the backs of my hands and just makes it really unpleasant. That parallel sided first pitch, also 5.9, is way more pleasant.
As for Quicksilver, sure it's runout but it's still 5.9. I did that when I was 17 and wearing a pair of EBS. You had to be on your toes, lots of climbing up one set of hold that would runout, then you'd downclimb and try another way, but it was still 5.9. No way every move on that first pitch is 5.8 either.
I think my vote would be Left Side of the Cookie.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 18, 2010 - 04:44pm PT
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First pitch of the DNB deserves mention. Put any 5.7 leader on that for revenge.
The whole Steck Salathe gets the lifetime sandbag award in my mind.
Peace
Karl
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
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First pitch of the DNB deserves mention. Put any 5.7 leader on that for revenge.
Yes! I had a buddy (posts here as Cancerboy once in a blue moon)--a solid 5.10/11 climber--who tried that and was so frustrated by how weird it felt, ending up bailing and being so pissed he didn't want to climb the rest of the day. By way of reference, the next day, once he got over his funk, we went and climbed Stoner's Highway without any problems.
I recalling reading one of Largo's posts that he considers that pitch a .10a.
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 05:19pm PT
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I was with Werner that day he soloed Reed's Direct. He carried the radio to be funny. I was right below him out of frame. What is harder: climb with only one hand without radio, or climbing with the radio? Any book recommendation to dial this technique ...
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
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BOMBER!!!!!!
Haha right? Just don't fall out backwards.
DNB doesn't even sound like an easy route just from it's description. There's another climb that I read about in the Roper guide. It's supposedly the most unaesthetic, unpleasant climb but also rated "5.6" I'll see if I can remember it.
I know, the pods and sharp edges would knife into my left hand but it didn't matter because I could cam my hand in those tapers and hang...as long as I wasn't exerting energy I didn't care if it hurt.
Steve, want to lead Quicksilver?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 18, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
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Steve, want to lead Quicksilver?
I gotta scope it out from the base....
uhhh, prolly not!!
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Jun 18, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
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First pitch of DNB indeed...that was brutally hard for the rating, dangle and thrash!
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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Mason, it may not be true for everyone, but for me, when things feel "harder" than their rating, it's often because it's something that I don't have much experience doing, and as a consequence my technique is not that good.
In my case, I rarely do harder fist or off-width crack climbs. As a shorter woman with small hands, these tend to feel much harder to me. If I can't reach past a wide spot, I can get stuck. For example, I once followed the Valley climb called Hardd. There is a wider part on the lower section, 10.a, which felt desperate to me. I hung and thrashed and got hauled through it. If I didn't know from the route description, I would have said that the 10.a section was harder than the 5.11 section, which was beautiful fingers, above. That doesn't mean it is harder, obviously, just that I can't rate it wide stuff acurately.
Keep climbing. Soon, Reed's will feel like 5.9.
xoxo Phyl
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
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gollum right.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 18, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
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Gollum right is pretty grim for 5.8! and that .10 face pitch on Rixon west, I've always sort of fallen across the gap and felt lucky...
I'm glad Hobo mentioned Tulgy Wood, now that's a reality check for saying,that npitch2 RD is a sandbag... and the kind of thing I was thinking of when I gave Mason disingenuous sh#t for saying valley climbs are under rated. (sorry about that)
I don't think Green Dragon is a sandbag, it's just hard. It's rated .11c isn't it? that should be hard, I think it's consistent with the grade, though. I did follow if before I first led it though, back in EB days.
Hobo, or anyone, have you climbed Fall wall @ Vedauwoo? It's rated 5.9+ and I always thought it would be .10b in the valley. scuffy onsighted it, on or about his 56th birthday, and said he thought that it was .9 and not .10. That was the day he became known as Mr Smooth, BTW.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 19, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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Jaybro-
Just about everything on Fall Wall seems to be a sandbag. How about Fear and Loathing at 5.9+? Even "5.11 Crack" has defeated lots of good climbers and is "only" a 5.9+.
P.S.: Vedauwoo was my "home area" for 4 years of Grad School in Laramie.
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Chief
climber
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Jun 19, 2010 - 12:09am PT
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Ditto for the DNB formerly at 5.9/10b.
Horrendous both times.
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Jun 19, 2010 - 12:20am PT
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Kevin,
73? Heck I thought everything was 5.9 back then..
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 19, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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High five brokedown! Vedauwoo itself is a grad school that helps you view many things in a different light. at least it's worked that way for me....
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 12:29am PT
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Friday night after beer rant warning.
Fat Dad is exactly right. Reed's and Quicksilver are both totally mid-5.9. Not sandbags at all. Hardly any moves on Reed's are more than 5.8 even - it's the continuity that makes it 5.9. Since when was 5.9 meant to be an easy climb? So the NEB of Higher Rock is supposed to be rated 5.12c because there's a lot of burly 5.8 and even a tiny bit of 5.9? Harden the f*ck up, some would say (just kidding).
True enough, there are some old ratings that were B.S., such as the DNB, for years, being regarded as having six 5.9 pitches but none harder. Pretty much, when that stuff was first done, if the climbers were totally maxed out, it was rated 5.9. But it didn't take that long for clarity to emerge. If we all turn in to such wusses that p.1 and 2 of Reed's have to be upgraded, they should just dam the Valley and make another Hetch Hetchy, the human race is done for.
There are individual pitches that are total sandbags (1st of DNB is every bit of 5.9 - real 5.9 like Reed's), but if you are getting on a 5.10/5.11 climb and one of the 5.7 pitches is a bit harder, you can't whine sandbag.
And the Wide is unratable. Ahab, Generator, L. side of Slack (I hear) would probable garner 5.11 or 12 ratings in most places, I guess, but it's just such unique stuff in the Valley that it doesn't matter.
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Mimi
climber
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Jun 19, 2010 - 12:55am PT
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It is the Yosemite decimal system. The routes are rated accordingly.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jun 19, 2010 - 01:15am PT
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Reed's is barely a stiff .8 compared to some other valley classics. Try playing on some of the "easy" base routes on the captain.....everything is sand bagged until you can start doing hard .10's and .11's. Or the wonderfully greasy 5.6 after six...or higher cathedral spire or...or....every area has it's own unique style that takes some getting used to. I've done some moderate routes in Red rocks that I thought were harder then any Valley classic...They weren't, but it just depends on what you are exposed to as your norm.
Donner summit has a few classic problems from Hudon that might actually be a "Little" sandbagged....But that was the nature of Donner climbing.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 19, 2010 - 01:19am PT
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The sandbag.
Just see. You should be happy you've sand bagged.
It gives you something to talk about instead of drooling in front your computer screen ......
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 19, 2010 - 02:08am PT
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The problem with that, Mimi , besides the the fact that the 'Yosemite Decimal system' is really from Tahquitz, is that the ratings are inconsistent. They always will be, but this, hopefully, is an attempt to reign them in, a little
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 19, 2010 - 02:23am PT
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As grades are totally subjective anyway, I generally use the ADGS - The Anders Distinctive Grading System. Works for me.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Jun 19, 2010 - 03:12am PT
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Any Kohl route... sandbagger, haa haaa!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 19, 2010 - 09:11am PT
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Forget the rating. A climb is what it is, climbs are not changing organisms, they are timeless, static entities. The climber is the variable regarding mood, style, conditioning etc. You can either do the climb or you can't.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 19, 2010 - 09:12am PT
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A lot of how we each interpret things depends on the individual build--I'm a fairly heavy guy, a shade under 195 pounds, but have a great "ape index."
I tend to do well on climbs that are less than vertical, but because of my power-to-weight ratio, overhanging routes seem to be super difficult. Long reaches don't bother me too much. I also have a thick chest, so tight squeezes= Arrgh!
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bob
climber
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Jun 19, 2010 - 09:22am PT
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Jim, with all due respect and I mean that sincerely, climbs are changing things. Nothing on this Earth is timeless. It all changes. In my mind that's the horror and the beauty of it all. Rocks break down the remnants move. Didn't someone just post about a boulder problem at Castle Rock that just broke a major large chunk of stone off of it to change it forever? The Earth moves and changes and we've been doing that along with it.
With that said, I think know what you mean, especially from a human's timeframe. A climb is a climb and is what it is to whoever it is to. Blah blah. coffee is kickin in and my Lyme fog is wearing off, or is it?
Bob Jensen
PS I know its not the Valley, but up on Lembert Dome (yeah Lembert Capt'n!!!!!!!!) there is a route called Sandbag and its 10b. Go climb it and tell me if you think its sandbagged. (tuolumnemeadows.org)
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 10:15am PT
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//There are individual pitches that are total sandbags (1st of DNB is every bit of 5.9 - real 5.9 like Reed's), but if you are getting on a 5.10/5.11 climb and one of the 5.7 pitches is a bit harder, you can't whine sandbag.//
Yeah, that was really wierd watching the complete mental collapse of someone who I know is a strong, well rounded climber, the kind of guy you'd bring on something like Iron Hawk to lead to way run face pitches up top. Moody though. I even offered to take the sharp end but he wanted to pout instead. Just too big of a mind f%$k for him thinking the thing was 5.7 and that it should have felt like 5.7. A really off day I guess.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Jun 19, 2010 - 11:27am PT
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Jaybro:
Never been to Veedauwoo and from what I learned from all of the parking lot talk it was probably a good thing-those routes sounded pretty fierce.
Doesn't Reeds have a crack inside the crack that you you can reach for? I remember reading something like that (P.Livesy?)
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 19, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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Right on, bob.
Sandbagging is a time honored tradition.
It builds character(s).
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throwpie
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 19, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
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Warbler mentioned the Cleft. That was my very first real attempted climb in the valley. Cowboy Larry Moore and a few other Degnan's Dorms ner-do-wells took me there, claiming it was a great beginner's climb. Cowboy swam right up it, as was his talent in wide cracks, and I was unable to get my feet off the ground.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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La Escuela
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 19, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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Sandbagging is a time honored tradition.
It builds character(s).
Sometimes I think it's a lame ego game and a dangerous (mis)contribution to the community.
Of course, not much to complain about regarding old climbs when 5.9 was the hardest grade in the world
Peace
Karl
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Chief
climber
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Jun 19, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
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Can't say it was a sandbag but Entrance Exam made New Dimensions feel like a frivolous lark.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jun 19, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
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my vote is for "time machine" on the 9 o'clock wall.
reed's was nothing when I did it
(granite mountain honed, carderock and seneca trained)
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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Doesn't Reeds have a crack inside the crack that you you can reach for? I remember reading something like that (P.Livesy?) There's a seam on the 5.10a 3rd pitch--the pitch that takes you to the top of the pinnacle. But that pitch seems to get ignored.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 19, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
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Kevin, do you have a story about Sacherer/Fredericks??
C'mon now, write it up!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 19, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
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Not I.
But I've been shut down a few times....Does that count?
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bob
climber
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Jun 19, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
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Karl said, "Sometimes I think it's a lame ego game and a dangerous (mis)contribution to the community."
To a community that relies way too much on ratings and guidebooks. Spoon fed climbers who don't want to think for themselves even though they are putting themselves in a life threatening situation every time they go out no matter how dangerous(or not) the protection, etc is. Climbing is dangerous. Says so everywhere and inside, I believe we all know this. There really isn't any sandbagging because its all relative. I use the term a ton and probably won't stop, but I just have trouble with people blaming others because they put up a supposed sandbagged route. Like its the FA's fault that person got there asses handed to them because they chose to just go on rating or whatever. Own up and look at what you climb, or if one lacks that ability, work on it and be a safer climber around the rest of us.
With that said, did anyone think that the 5.8 on Good Book is some hard climbing for the grade?
Bob Jensen
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:12am PT
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Cheers to you Bob..the route starts here and goes up.....that's climbing.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Aw, Pshaw, you wouldn't even understand....
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:16am PT
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Best topo I'ved ever seen....stolen from the TacoStand.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:35am PT
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No, I didn't think the 5.8 bit on Good Book was too bad (exciting though!) - but that was because my partner, who had done the route before, tried to convince me I would dust off the 11b variation (he called it 10d) no problem. After going up and down a few times trying it and clipping one or both pitons, and wisely opting out, the 5.8 didn't seem hard at all! Nah, there's no such thing as sandbagging in the Valley...but it's best to just STFU and climb, which is the best revenge whenever you are truly sandbagged.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 20, 2010 - 03:02am PT
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Karl said, "Sometimes I think it's a lame ego game and a dangerous (mis)contribution to the community."
Bob said
To a community that relies way too much on ratings and guidebooks. Spoon fed climbers who don't want to think for themselves even though they are putting themselves in a life threatening situation every time they go out no matter how dangerous(or not) the protection, etc is. Climbing is dangerous. Says so everywhere and inside, I believe we all know this. There really isn't any sandbagging because its all relative. I use the term a ton and probably won't stop, but I just have trouble with people blaming others because they put up a supposed sandbagged route. Like its the FA's fault that person got there asses handed to them because they chose to just go on rating or whatever. Own up and look at what you climb, or if one lacks that ability, work on it and be a safer climber around the rest of us.
With that said, did anyone think that the 5.8 on Good Book is some hard climbing for the grade?
Bob Jensen
To answer the last question first, The good book can feel tough, and is hard for 5.8, but it's funny.... I've free soloed it after already rope/free soloing the North East Buttress of Higher the same day and I'm not a big stud by any standards, and then I've gone back and had to aid parts of the good book cause went slightly the wrong way, and have felt "in between" on the thing too, feeling "this is tough for the grade."
To address you point about sandbagging. It's one thing to not grade a route or offer a fair honest assessment, however relative about the dangers and difficulties of a route, it's another to knowlingly downplay the dangers and difficulty of a route with the intent to induce climbers to go up and epic, sh#t their pants, or think of the sandbaggers in awed and heroic terms. That's like giving a guy a hit of acid, and telling him it aspirin, which will ease his headache for the long drive home.
Peace
Karl
Edit: Opps, I meant Braille Book! Can't remember 5.8 on the Good Book. That sandbag might have been fixed in recent books.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 20, 2010 - 04:26am PT
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So many thoughts about sandbagging . . .
I agree with Kevin about Slack Left - it's super slippery and BITD had no pro to speak of. Right side of Bongs Away (or it is Absolutely Free) also used to be pretty much unprotected going off the belay on the hard pitch.
Right Side of the Hourglass is also grim for 10a, and so is Despair.
Right Side of Henley Quits used to be 5.9 which was just stupid - and I have big hands. I always thought Vanishing Point and Independence Center were pretty hard for 10d. Weird sizes.
I remember when I first did Sentinel West Face the first time the first Dog Leg crack was rated 5.8 on my topo and I only brought a couple nuts for the belay and ended up running out the whole pitch and Kim Schmitz was down at the belay thinking we were going to die and I felt okay but the pitch felt like soling a 10a out at Josh.
I always thought Chopper Flake was quite the 10c. Same with English Breakfast Crack. Does anyone ever do those routes?
And that old friction route on the Apron called Flakey Foont. In the old EBs that was no 5.9. Neither was all that stuff around Luicifer's Ledge.
But wait, there's more . . .
JL
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 05:26am PT
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Sacherer-Fredericks:
> Not much to tell - Chappy and I went up there and got shut down on some supposedly easy 5.10.
>
> Our excuse was we didn't have a hammer and pins, I believe. Sacherer was famous for going for it.
It's rated 5.10c in the guidebook, and apparently it is one of the few routes Sacherer originally rated 5.10 instead of 5.9 (most all the 5.9s are rated 5.10 in the current guidebook).
When I did it with Erik Strom, we had a hammer and replaced the belay bolts below the crux. Then we found out the hammer was useful for resetting fixed pins on the start of the crux pitch. In the process, a loose flake came off in Erik's hand, and he had to carefully toss it over left to avoid hitting Melissa and J at the base! Shortly after there was a loose-appearing flake, directly above the belayer. Erik managed to make the moves without pulling very hard on it.
Over the little bulge, the crack diagonalled left, with one section where Erik had to climb through some hardish moves before getting pro.
Then once the crack straightened up at a little bush is where the crack gets rather thin/blank. We thought it was low 5.11 there.
3rd time's a charm?
1. 1987 with Jim Lutz. After I barely led to the belay below the crux,
we witnessed a double fatality (people whose belay anchor failed on the East Buttress). We rapped off.
2. 5/2003: First try with Erik
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/rep/035ycook.txt
3. 6/2003: Return with Erik
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/rep/036ysacf.txt
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bob
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:25am PT
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You soloed that thing Karl! Jeez. How did you get down? Climb? Whoa. I did the Good Book in 97. I learned to climb at Granite Mountain in AZ and I remember smiling the whole way, but felt it was hard, or maybe its just so out there.............long time ago for me.
I agree with you (if I processed what you wrote correctly. Coffee just kicking in) that outright sandbagging with the intent to fuggle people or to simply put them in danger is fuggled if an FA is going to write up a description.
The route I did in Tuolumne on Lembert Dome aptly named "Sandbag" and rated 10b is a play on the whole thing. If one looks at the topo he/she will see an (11b), though smaller than the 10b after the name and rating. Seems to me that the name might just give it away outright.
Truth be told, I usually have no idea how hard a climb is, especially if I put it up. I've never really worked anything that hard, so if it seems really hard for me I just give it an 11+. I feel that plus signs with ratings give fair warning that the route is probably way harder than the grade given for the majority of people. I have that opinion through 19 years of climbing.
Is it the FA's duty to realize that some folks might not quite get that yet or is it OK to just let them figure it out for themselves? I'm not really sure.
As far as the danger rating I have always put the appropriate letter after the rating if its needed. R or X.
I still have this internal knot in my head that just yells, "C'mon people, just cover your own ass and climb with your own judgement regardless of what you read about it. With every topo comes a bit of the personality of the FA climber or team, or at least a bit of their personality from that day or from the time they drew up the topo."
I know many a road map has sent me off in the wrong direction just because I failed to keep my mind open for the possibility that it (the map) was wrong. I just blindly take its info and expect the perfect outcome. Pretty stupid on my part. At least that's sure how I feel about it when I find myself down some road way off track just because I turned my brain off and put it in someone's hands who produced a map. Boy do I feel like an idiot when that happens.........and it still does occasionally.
Topos/route descriptions are like any writing in my opinion. There are so many authors and people with ideas/opinions to put on paper that I feel they have to be taken with a grain of salt, or at least viewed with a big open mind as to how imperfect/ outright wrong these things may be. (topos or writings)
I'm fully blabbering now. I thought of deleting, but I'm throwing it out to be torn apart.
Have a rockin day y'all!!!!!!!!
Bob Jensen
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:45am PT
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Hey Kevin,
Regarding your comment on tunneling behind the Reed's 2nd pitch, there is no room for a headlamp. In any case you can see the faint outlines of the chockstones from below on the reflected light coming in from the sides. I think I could turn my head in all sections. I don't think you would want to trail a rope.
Isn't the Good Book the right side of the Folly with a 10d rating? Is this a running joke that it is 5.8?
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bob
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:59am PT
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Just speaking of the 3rd? pitch as 5.8. That's what I've been talking about.
Bob J.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 10:08am PT
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Clint, I just don't understand your experiences on Sacherer-Fredericks... I thought that route was highly over-rated, and that it gave up the ghost pretty much after the pseudo-hand traverse.... I have done it twice back in 71 and 74. But that was with pins. Cool route though and not well-traveled by the way.
Anyway, for me the big Valley sandbag has always been that Peter Pan was originally rated 5.8 in the Roper/Red guide and then 5.9 in the Roper/Green guide. And then in a class by itself, 5.9+ in the Reid guide---I am thinking it was the only "+"-something in that book because of the basic quandry that the crux presents. Because you have such a tremendous hold at the crux flake, it is hard to rate it any harder than 5.9 but I have seen a number of leaders there mill about for many minutes with the kooky-assed moves there. And just in general, P/P is a really stout 5.9 lead what with the smooth steep off-sized crack below and then the very considerable 5.8 S-chimney above the crux. The chimney sometimes defeats climbers who were able to do the crux, by the way. Molly Higgins failed there actually, truth be told. It is one of the harder S-chimneys I have ever seen--- absolutely the wrong, narrowest version of an S and actually is best done by feet-stacking unless you have size 16 shoes. That lead is also quite long, well over 120 feet, I believe.
I have done that route at least 6 times now, starting in 1965. I think it is one of the great short routes in granite anywhere. I remember when I was at my peak, doing the crux by a nearly invisible stemming combination on and to the left of the flake, completely avoiding the "hoof-in-mouth" move of the crux--- and it was really easy but insecure and quite hard to formulate. Then the next two times I was not able to remember the moves nor mobilize my lard-ass to leave the crack and be that open-stanced with stems, preferring to hug and grunt over the obstacle. Ignominious, I know, but if you don't live to climb, climbing becomes way way hard.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:11am PT
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Peter, your comments about Peter Pan point out the difficulty of rating hard moves that are secure. It always seemed hard to me, but when I guided it all of my clients were able to do it. The crack getting to the crux always posed more issues than the crux or the squeeze above.
At the Sacherer Remembrace, Doug (Flanders) told me that he had done the Sacherer Fredericks. I got the impression that he thought it is was a good route and not too desperate--more along the lines that you remember Peter (I never made it over there to try it). He did say that there is a pitch on the route that is not on the topo. (I wonder how that happens--seems like a lot of work to add a pitch to an established route.)
Bob, it is not clear to me which section on "Good Book" is the 3rd pitch; nor the circumstances of free-soloing a middle pitch as Karl describes. In the Meyers Reid guide, the route has six pitches, two below the base of the corner, and three above. All are rated 5.9 or harder. There is one section, the wild traverse out under the skinny flake and then back along its top into the corner that is rated 5.8. Above that is a 10b rated hand crack and then a 5.9 o.w. to the top. I ran those pitches above the long corner together on an early ascent. The team I climbed with--there were about six of us with me standing in as the old-dude--3rd classed up to the base of the long corner. Talk about a sandbag: I insisted on a rope. Kauk led the long corner effortlessly. I followed while a hush descended on the youngsters on Security Ledge, watching to see if old-dude could actually climb. Another sandbag. It was hard to climb and even harder to make it look easy.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:14am PT
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Largo, agree with you on west face of sentinel, I did the same thing, ran the whole thing out and my partner was pretty freaked down below. Not sure if it has been mentioned here but I always thought little wing was pretty tough for a "10c". I also thought the dnb had some really hard "5.9".
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:17am PT
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Maybe Doug Flanders is remembering that the Sacherer-Fredericks has a "direct finish". It is described in Reid guide and is the preferable way of finishing, by the way. The original finish is just a cop-out. However that direct finish is not "a pitch" but 6 pitches, all 5.7 but for one at 5.9.
Again about Peter Pan, I agree the route has to be 5.9+ with the giant hold available. All told though it is one of the stouter 5.9’s. Think back 45 years or so when it was called 5.8. I was something like 16 or 17 years old, up there with my school friends, trying to bag another moderate route on the base of El Cap as proper training for the “real climbing” ---the grade sixes that were being put up above and elsewhere. And this 5.8 was rapidly becoming, foot by foot, the most significant lead of my young life up to that point. You see, we were just teenagers working with what Roper had described and actually were in a bit over our heads.
Back to Clint’s thoughts on S-F. I remember doing the pseudo-hand traverse partly by walking on it rather than hanging on the whole thing. I remember knocking in a bong or two at my feet also, there.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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As it turns out, the first ascent party of Fredericks and Schmitz (7/66) did NOT do it free, by their own admission too, to me directly. It was actually Bridwell and Klemens to do the FFA. The guides are wrong.
I came shortly after B & K. The trick on that crux pitch is to effing rest and resist getting into some kind of tunnel-vision rush-hour scene with it. Just below the hardest section, there is a NO HANDS rest that probably evades many leading it. You can't really understand it from below, looking up. It really is an incredible, odd-ball no hands rest. If you miss it, the climb would be surely 5.11-something/hideous. But if you can discipline yourself to rest there long enough--- it is a little unnerving though---after doing the first bunch of liebacks below, your experience will be considerably more pleasant as you mount yet another lieback--- the hardest one--- just above. Really great route and great name too. That was Fredericks' name, as I remember. His favorite tea back then. I always thought it was a much more interesting route than most of them down there and that, although much shorter, it began to approach New Dimensions in quality and character, although not fully.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
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it's another to knowlingly downplay the dangers and difficulty of a route with the intent to induce climbers to go up and epic, sh#t their pants, or think of the sandbaggers in awed and heroic terms. That's like giving a guy a hit of acid, and telling him it aspirin, which will ease his headache for the long drive home.
LOL
Well put.
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bmacd
climber
Relic Hominid
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:22pm PT
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Double dog ditto on the DNB. Though I never doubted the assigned grade, just myself the first time I went up there.
Climbing that route was definately one of the greatest achievements of my life. Wish I had a camera up there.
A 5.10 route for 5.11 climbers only
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
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It's hard for me to rate stuff. Partly because I haven't climbed thousands of pitches, partly because of how variable the difficulty of different sized cracks is, and partly because it's, well, hard.
I did a route on Pulpit called You Will Burn in Hell For Your Sins. The guy I was with, who had found the line and showed it to me, and let me have the FA , said 5.9. I thought it was more like .10c, but deferred to his experience. He's climbed forever. Next summer, three different groups of my friends went and did it and said it was more like 10d/11a. So who knows. It's going in the book as a 9+.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 20, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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Bob wrote
You soloed that thing Karl! Jeez. How did you get down? Climb? Whoa. I did the Good Book in 97.
No way I did that! I had a brain fart and thought you were talking about Braille book!
Recent guides have dropped the sandbag of pitch 3 of the good book, which was a typo I think. Sadly, rockfall has made this route unpopular although you're probably safe if you get to the base in one piece.
I did do Wild Thing on the Folly about 10 years ago, THAT WAS A SANDBAG!
http://www.yosemiteclimber.com/WildThing!.html
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 20, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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and S-F
I've looked toward that route from Kor-Beck a few times and can't quite figure the line. Lots of cracks ending in hanging gardens that look like only Tarzan could negotiate. Must be looking at the wrong place
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 20, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
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hanging gardens that look like only Tarzan could negotiate Well, some of them do fancy themselves as monkeys.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
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Peter,
> Sacherer-Fredericks... I thought that route was highly over-rated, and that it gave up the ghost pretty much after the pseudo-hand traverse
There was a very thin section for us where the crack straightens up, where there was a medium sized plant/bush.
Maybe the plant has overgrown a key hold?
It was a nice looking plant, and we didn't feel like removing it to check.
Maybe it was partly about the pro; might have been faster to protect with pins there.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
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Clint, that plant must be covering critical stuff as you suspect--- a slot or something. It has been 35 years since I have been on the route. I do remember a short thin section after the pseudo-hand traverse but that it was not hard; this must be the difference.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 20, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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Does anyone have a picture of the rock with the route marked? I think that Karl's sense of where the route goes relative to what you can see from the Kor-Beck is off. In May, after talking to Doug about the route, I studied the route through binoculars from near the El Cap Bridge and compared what I saw with the Meyers Reid guide and Roper’s two different guides. What I could see the route moves to the left hand side of the feature on whose right side are all the hanging gardens that Karl mentions. Until I this past May, my sense was the same as Karl’s. The left hand side of the feature is much more inviting.
My goal here is to counter any unwarranted prejudice of the sense of the route. The same goes for the Powell-Reed on the NE face. In May when I sat with Roger Brown in the Cafeteria and he assured me that the bolts on the Powell-Reed would be replaced along with the bolts on Paradise Lost and Stoners Highway.
I think more climbers should venture onto those routes. We had lots of fun on them.
Just to keep this discussion on topic, I considered the Sacherer-Fredericks to be one of the premiere sandbags of the early 70s and stayed off of it. I never knew of anyone actually doing the route until Peter told me about his ascents a few years ago.
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Jun 24, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
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In the 5.10 range, how about Waverly Wafer, I think that used to be rated 5.10c? Maybe English Breakfast Crack at 5.10c and Meat Grinder at 5.10c? Or Twilight Zone at 5.10c?
In the 5.11 range, how about Anticipation at 5.11b? Or Separate Reality at 5.11d (Kauk once told me he still thought it was 5.12 even after the end quaked off).
In the 5.12 range, maybe Rostrum Roof at 5.12b? Or Hangdog Flyer at 5.12b (one of the pumpiest pure layback pitches in the valley)?
Grades should reflect chance of failure, and although Reed's may have "no moves harder than 5.7" (I disagree with this entirely though!) a 5.10 climber has a very high chance of failure on this route (I know many who have!) therefore I think the rating is a bit of a sandbag. The same with Meat Grinder, etc.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Jun 27, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
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Not that these are sandbags, just very cool routes: Middle Cathedral Rock has some
incredible routes with very sculpted rock, challenging route finding at times, and a
sporty lead here and there.
Doug
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Chief
climber
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Jun 28, 2010 - 02:43am PT
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Nice post Doug,
Middle is the best example of how numbers can't describe a multi pitch climbing experience. I've flailed and been run out, pumped and scared more times on 5.8 and 5.9 on Middle than anywhere. I wouldn't call it sandbag in general but there are occasions like the third pitch on the DNB that seem a bit stiff for their original grade. (The change in the color of the rock looking down is one of the coolest things about Middle). Ditto for that tombstone of a Sentinel. Not much fluff 5.8 on the Steak Salad. Very manly (or warrior princess/goddess) kind of climbing.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 10, 2011 - 07:38pm PT
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I just found this searching for Sacherer-Fredericks b/c I knew Clint had posted something, but couldn't remember what. I like to look up climbs after I "do" them. I couldn't touch the crux of this even on TR. Slings all the way.
The most sandbagged grade in the valley might 10cLOL.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 10, 2011 - 08:11pm PT
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Hankster, I once saw Brian Sweeney do Bachar Crachar in flip-flops after I'd baaaaarely gotten up it. My ego was sucessfully crushed for the day.
P1 DNB and the approach to Sacharer Cracker, both 5.7 flares. Both horrendous.
Ahab...10b...hahahahaha!
Ver's Werner - if you're not about 6' or taller this thing is stupid hard for the rating.
P1 of Positively 4th St, rated 5.7 and harder than the 5.9 crux.
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Thomas
Trad climber
The Tilted World
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Aug 10, 2011 - 09:09pm PT
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I would definitely cast a vote for the second pitch of The Enema, but I always struggle with flared stuff. I was way impressed with Donini after doing that one. Great route, and stout!
Cheers!
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Aug 10, 2011 - 09:31pm PT
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Two thoughts, first I don't think most climbers intentially sandbag climbs. I think to an extent it is a bit of humility on the part of the FA crew, and then also the fact that they don't have any preconcieved notions of what they can and can't do.
The other thing is that the 5.9 grade is an interesting one. I'd venture to say it is likely the grade that results in more people assuming they can do the route and getting spanked than any other grade. I think psychologically many of us fall into the mindset of 5.10 on up is hard, 5.9 and below is easy. The reality is that even with modern shoes, 5.9 is still stiff climbing, especially if it's a multi pitch route, and requires some strenuous combinations you haven't encountered before.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 10, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
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After 6
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 10, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
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Every time there's a discussion of underrated Valley climbs, after 6 comes up. It's certainly near the top of my list.
Noobs beware!
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jfailing
Trad climber
Lone Pine
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Aug 10, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
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How about the first 15 feet of Sacherer Cracker?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 10, 2011 - 10:12pm PT
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Hawkman's Escape. I saw your TR on it a year ago or more. I'm definitely intrigued
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Aug 11, 2011 - 01:30am PT
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Anyone done Juliette's Flake? I found it pretty stout for 4th Class.
Ken
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 11, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
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In the 10c grade there are lots of sandbags it seems.
English Breakfast Crack seems more like 11a
So does Waverly Wafer
Also Meat Grinder seems like it might be 11a even though no move is harder than 10a or so, it is the "Reeds Direct" of 10c
At the higher grades, how about Hangdog Flyer at 12b? Seems pretty stiff, maybe upside down laybacks are not my forte though.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Aug 11, 2011 - 08:39pm PT
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Hawkman's Escape.
Dingus I came here to say exactly that. One of the best memories, or two of the best memories I have of climbing in Yosemite.
We linked it with Ab Free Center and nothing on Ab Free came close in terms of commitment, holy-shitness, and difficulty.
Esa ruta es de la puta madre.
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beluga
climber
Nowhere
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Aug 12, 2011 - 12:55am PT
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Worst Error Left side.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 12, 2011 - 01:34am PT
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^^Warbler, after I got back from some vaycay, I saw where you gave me some unearned hardwoman points for the right side. Only been on the left here. Bummer that the right side is so much harder...my already small motivation to wade across the river and up the loosest dirt in the Valley is lower!
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beluga
climber
Nowhere
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Aug 12, 2011 - 01:53am PT
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I am not worthy. :-(
I've been sandbagged so many times I could stop a flood cold. It's a time honored Tradition, is it not?
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 12, 2011 - 02:30am PT
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Largo, thanks for saying Right Side of Hourglass for 10a. Makes me feel like less of a pansy for balking on the lead. I'll be back.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Aug 12, 2011 - 03:27am PT
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If you think Reeds Direct is a sandbag, go try Midterm!
But the biggest sandbag in Yosemite just so happens to be the biggest sandbag in the world...
THE NOSE
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Aug 23, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
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When I did Reed's Direct with Pratt, he didn't put in any pro
at all, ohhh, maybe a sling around a chockstone right near the top...
though he didn't need it. Every jam was so bomber, even at the
crux, I could only think the grading could reflect the continuousness
of it. But with footwork, saving the arms, it goes very well.
The offwidth above, which Pratt had me lead, is much harder, solid
5.10.
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P.Rob
Social climber
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Aug 23, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
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The summer of '86 we did Free Blast; the first 10 pitches of the Salathe. I believe right around the 8th pitch or so is a 5.8 squeeze chimney through the Half Dollar. Flip – felt like I went a few rounds with the Fairtex locals – turned every which way but loose
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 23, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
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What a beautiful picture that is, PatrickO, of Reed's Direct.
Notice the lack of no lichen on the right side of the pitch. Most excellent!
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2011 - 09:03pm PT
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I believe it is time. I will return to the valley this fall and lead this climb that they call "Reed's Direct."
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Aug 24, 2011 - 01:34am PT
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Although it gets a bit strange right where Pratt is
in the photo, the few feet above, where it zigs a
bit to the right, almost leans a little, it's easily protected
and no move harder than about 5.7. It's continuous, though,
and if you're not experienced with keeping weight on the
feet you'll get tired. It will seem pretty stiff probably.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Aug 24, 2011 - 01:42am PT
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Good observation, about the lichen.
It wasn't all scraped off the right side,
as it now is. I don't
remember ever even much using the right wall. It
was more like walking up the crack, with weight
on feet (in the crack)and bomber hand
jams to hold me inward....
I think if one is scratching at the right wall
with the right foot, it is getting difficult for them....
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 24, 2011 - 01:55am PT
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After several beers in El Cap meadows, we run over to Reeds to ascend the route in the twilight.
Rubine had never touched the thing before, so he gets the plum lead. Full from beer, he starts slammin' in the jams. Graceful is his face climbing. But now he's lugging. And listing.
2/3s of the way up the crack David sinks in a perfect hand, leans over so I can see his face, and says to me, "It's a puker Kel, a real puker."
I laughed my ass off. I'll never forget that look.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Aug 24, 2011 - 06:39am PT
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That's when you start looking for a place to hide.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 24, 2011 - 07:15am PT
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The only reason people refer to a climb as sandbagged is because they pay attention to the arbitrary number attached to it. The climb presents itself as it has for eons, you can either do it or you can't. Nothing about the climb is sandbagged, it's all about you and your expectations.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
wussing off the topout on Roadside Attraction
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Aug 24, 2011 - 07:29am PT
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In which donini channels Werner...
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Aug 24, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
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I see your point, Jim. Maybe though the "sandbag" comes in if
people who use the grades as a guide to what they should be on
go up on something that is terribly mis-rated. I really can't, however,
think of much that is all that mis-rated. It's fun to imagine, though.
"You want to learn off-width? There's a little climb around the
corner from... and they call it Twilight Zone. Bring a couple of
stoppers just for psychological reasons, as nothing will fit.
This old guy named Pratt did the route, no chalk, gimpy Cortinas,
can't be that hard."
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
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I think the whole reason I thought this route was sandbagged was because after I climbed it, still being a noob with not much technique, I asked about the rating and someone said it was "the most sandbagged climb in the valley."
I followed it again back in February and it was a little easier.
I think I had built up an aura around the route because it's such a striking line and looked really fun and "not that hard."
It's amazing how experience and better technique shifts one's perspective.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Aug 24, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
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The best time I've ever had on Reed's Direct was linking 1+2. What a pitch.
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Sep 29, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
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I know, it's not the climb's fault but...
If you are in Yosemite and want to see a climber having trouble, hanging on
the rope, falling, anything like that...your best bet is to watch the 2nd
pitch of Reed's Direct for a while.
It's almost a sure thing.
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
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It is interesting that many mentioned on this tread Reed's direct -I've never felt it is harder than average Yosemite 5.9, even when I climbed it first time.
Many times I found big sandbags on multy-pitch routes on sections which not supposed to be cruxes of the routes, and rated one-two grades lower than hardest pitch, but in fact comparable to the hardest part of the route. Examples:
1.Mental block p4 roof rated 5.8 felt comparable in difficulties with crux of the route which is 10c
2. Half Dollar on Free Blast - rated 10b - felt like 10+
3. Third pitch of Yawn " amazing hands" - rated 5.7 - felt like 5.9
4. Steck-Salathe - pitch 5- 5.9 flare after Wilson - felt as the crux of the route, harder than most of 5.9's in the Valley
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Sep 29, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
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Mason,
Why don't you try to go lead that little climb I sand bagged you on again?
I'll belay you again but get it this time so I don't have to lead it yet again ;) OR maybe we can put Ez on it...snicker...
It's really only 5.8...seriously...just a little old school...
kev
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 30, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
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The pitch around the Half Dollar is the best bet in the Valley to watch somebody fall out.
It used to be 5.10a and everybody expects a nose-in wrestling match when the climbing turns technical.
Sitting out in the meadow we used to provide color commentary while about half of the neophytes would shop, stop and drop out of the coin return!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 30, 2011 - 12:45pm PT
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The second biggest a-holes that I've ever encountered climbing were some super self-satisfied french guides who decided to come share the hanging belay before the 1/2 dollar w/ me after my partner had already started leading the pitch because they were sure they'd be so, so much faster than us. (They were not.) The could have waited 60 feet below on a ledge, but that just wouldn't do.
Anyway, my partner was understandably stressed, but he threw himself into the wet slot and got the job done. From above he got his bit of schadenfreude watching the would-be passer fall out. Bwaahahhhahaha.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Sep 30, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
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By the way, I think Reed's Direct is not a sandbag. Pat has it right - use your feet to save your arms.
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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Sep 30, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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So Melissa, if those were thwe second biggest, who were the biggest a-holes?
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2011 - 01:19am PT
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I finally led it!!
Well, one hang, just before the crack widens, and slants right, below the first ledge.
I just want to thank Blue for his Hardman training circuit of 12 pack Heineken drinking. And thanks to Brokedownclimber for telling me to enjoy my climbs slowly, like a fine wine, or PBR. And to Captain...or Skully, for telling me never to head-butt the rock.
And after having led it and followed it twice, I do not think it's a sandbag.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 10, 2011 - 01:27am PT
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Oh man, my vote is gonna be either "Ilsa, She wolf of the SS", a Watson sandbag, or Dan Mcdivotts "Pokerface", which I understand has new bolts, making the runouts less clenching. Both of these routes are sketchy for the grade.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Oct 10, 2011 - 04:36am PT
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How about the first pitch of DNB? The odd grovelly crack. Was that mentioned somewhere upthread?
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Oct 10, 2011 - 11:57am PT
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Gidget does Yosemite. Susan
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photonez
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Oct 11, 2011 - 12:18am PT
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Me - Do something cool. Like fall or something.
Mason - WTF, I'm trying to lead here.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 11, 2011 - 11:36am PT
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Nice job, guys.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 11, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
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The 5.8 and 5.9 pitches on Paradise Lost are sort of stout because BITD they had no pro at all. I also don't think many people do the East Buttress of Middle totally clean. That's a hard 5.10c pitch and before the bolts were replaced it's was hard to even clip them standing on bullshit in the old PAs. Hangdog Flier is hard because you have to wiggle in pro. If you can just gas it (TR) and not stop, it's not NEARLY so hard - except for that thin boulder type move near the top, where you're crimping that hold out left - wasn't that the move there? Getting a little fuzzy after 120 years. I said so before but Cramming feels hard for 10c but I have fat mitts. And most of Central Pillar is 10a, really. It amazes me that the upper part of the route doesn't get done. It's pretty well protected and better than the lower part. Probably 10d/11a.
And what's that thing Kevin W. did behind Camp 4 rated 10d? Used to have a couple points of aid at the bottom. And Henley Quits left side at 11b? Way harder. And Dynamo Hum has to be 5.12 unless you have Bugaboos for fingers. And the Crack of Despair is a very hard size for 10a. Like an inverted hourglass.And for me, Anticipation is 5.12. I cannot get my fingers into it and have to do impossible stems and reaches.
Church Bowl Terrace at 5.8? Rally? We used to mass solo it but really? 5.8?
But wait, there's more . . .
JL
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Oct 11, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
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How about North Buttress of Middle Cathedral? (not DNB)
Twice I've done the first half or so (never finished it yet), and just about every rated pitch is more serious than the grade would indicate, and at least one part (the end of the Reid 5.9 pitch below the 5.10a pitch) has significant face moves way out right with no chance for modern pro (but a piton in the old days would have made it more casual). There is another way to go that I might try next time.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Oct 11, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
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Church Bowl Terrace at 5.8? Rally? We used to mass solo it but really? 5.8?
Largo, are you saying it's easier or harder than 5.8?
I wouldn't solo it unless my life depended on it (e.g. chased by non-climbing terrorists with knifes), but I felt pretty darn plugged in at every point and I max out at easy 5.10
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 11, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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Maybe someone mentioned it earlier: Lena's Lieback.
That's a SOLID 5.9, I'd call it 9+ or maybe a little more. Very difficult to find stances to place pro. Sustained at the grade. Maybe a move or 2 of 10a or was I just tired? Very good climb to test your 5.9 skills.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 11, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
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Climbs are natural rock formations, except, perhaps, the WOS. The only thing sandbagged about them is the rating they are given. If ratings were a consensus instead of a sacrosanct number given by the the first ascent party, sandbags would be on the endangered species list.
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Byran
climber
Merced, CA
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Oct 11, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
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Nearly every slab climb in the Valley feels sandbagged to me, but I'll just chock that up to a lack of skill in that area on my part. I've often found myself getting lowered off a bail biner saying "Sh#t, we must be on the wrong climb. No way is this thing 10a, more like 11a!". Then after getting down, consulting the guidebook, and scouting around some more, I come to the realization that yes, in fact, that was the 10a I had intended to do.
It also seems like I climb a full number grade lower on glacier polish vs good friction, on all types of climbing. As for some specific climbs which are of a style that I'm a little more familiar with:
Dromedary 5.8+, long difficult chimney near the Owl Roof.
Entrance Exam 5.9, polished chimney with big chockstones blocking the way.
Moby Dick Left 5.9, extremely flared leaning chimney. Felt just as hard as Moby Dick Ahab (10b)
Cramming 10d, couldn't get off the ground. But maybe it's not actually that hard and I just suck at this particular size of crack.
Mark of Art 10d, and I'd consider liebacks to be a style of climbing I'm best at. But this thing is just ridiculous, no rest and it just keeps going and going.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 11, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
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I believe it is time. I will return to the valley this fall and lead this climb that they call "Reed's Direct."
I sure wanted to try leading at least 1st pitch of it this fall till I saw your thread. I mean is it really that bad? Can't even get any jams to start the 1st?
Funny story: This weekend I took a friend from High School and my climbing gym to climb outside for his first time. 1st day I taught him how multi-pitch works etc at Cosumnes river gorge (great place with short climbs). Next day I took him and my other friend up Scheister in Sugar Loaf. Both were SHOCKED that 1st pitch is a 5.7, refused to believe it. For 2nd pitch I took a 5.8 variation to the left (I know Scheister is a 5.7, but someone told me that left var is 5.8), and he found it easier than the 5.7 pitch before. Although I found it pretty psychologically draining due to not having any good pro for about 20 ft at one point (while having to get over a mini roof, although easy, was scary with no pro). So with the rating system etc it becomes what it is when you gain enough technique/experience to climb it? Since there are so many different types of climbs (slab, cracks-finger,hand,fist etc, face, OW, chimneys) and for new to climbing people (like me) it is hard to improve in multiple areas fast. I noticed if you climb 5.8 face it does not mean you will be able to climb a 5.8 slab or OW! And when you do learn to climb that particular type of climb, it becomes a lot harder with runouts. Whole different game. Climbing is complicated buzinezz. One of the reasons I like it.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Oct 11, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
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reeds is stout 5.8 I say
now its sandbagged
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Oct 11, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
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Cramming 10d, couldn't get off the ground. Cramming is hard. I did New Dimension a couple of days later and the supposed crux at the top of pitch 4 felt really light in comparison.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 11, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
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Nutcracker should perhaps be renamed Anklecracker.
ps A fair number seem to have broken ankles on the mantel on the last pitch. Werner? Jesse?
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
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Anders - it should actually be renamed to Shoulder Dislocator. I nearly killed myself the second time i led Nutcracker.
Vitaliy - it's really not that bad, now that Ive climbed it 3 times now. I finally got to lead it last Saturday and as Pat says, save your arms, use your feet. When I first wrote this post almost 1.5 years ago I was a total noob with about 3 months of climbing experience outdoors. And as for the first pitch, like I said, I was a noob. Just reach up high and place a good piece for the start. Reach up a little higher and get an ok jam, commit and go. First pitch is fun and a good warm up.
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Relic
Social climber
Vancouver, BC
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Oct 11, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
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Nutcracker should perhaps be renamed Anklecracker.
How so? I have only done it once, like ten years ago. I remember it feeling easy, didn't really put much gear in but you always could if you wanted to.
El Cap base routes, lots of those were sandbags I remember.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 29, 2014 - 09:30pm PT
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Bumpin' a good thread.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Nov 29, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
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All the class 4 routes in Roper's.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Nov 29, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
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Ten Years After seems high in the grade. Awesome climb, but strenuous and sustained, with slick rock. Good gear but tiring to place it, and the crux moves are up high, when you're feeling it.
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