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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jun 14, 2010 - 06:32pm PT
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hey there all, say... first, my deep condolences to her family and loved ones.... and as someone said (if i understood right) it seems she had tried to do everything right, so her shock in falling must have been all the worse... :(
second:
i greatly admire the courage in every single climber... as, sadly after seeing so many accidents (though some are nature, and not equipement) i feel it is a very EXTRA scary-hazzard, as to trusting equipment (along with the dangers of the climb), and how to use it, and what brands, etc, are best, and our own human mishaps that we may-or-amy not be awared of, or that may fall prey to, that is almost more tricky than the facing the nature of the rock-dangers...
you all are very special folks, to see, calculate and thus, work with, so many things that come into play...
well, once again, my condolences to her family, and my sadness for this loss of life... :(
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 14, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
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Neebee, to climb successfully you have to trust the equipment (if it is in good condition and used correctly) or you will never be able to trust yourself.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 14, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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My condolences to her family and friends.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jun 15, 2010 - 01:39am PT
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hey there say, donini... thanks so very much... you know, it still seems like being brave, though in a double hard way... oh my... :)
but then, too, i need to realize that in a sense, that is what trusting yourself, too, is, facing up to your skills and knowledge... trusting that you understand how to use and check it all and such...
perhaps i am too used to seeing man-made things, break too easy...
(thanks for helping me understand all this more, though) :)
and, i still think you all are very brave, though... :)
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Dirka
Trad climber
SF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 02:17am PT
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Blessings to her and her family.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
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Sorry this happened :(
Good information in this thread.
Erik
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jun 17, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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How terribly sad.
One of the ways this can happen is with a shoulder-length open sling with one biner equipped with a rubber keeper. If this sling is tripled to make a trad draw, and then extended by unclipping a single strand from the biner with the rubber keeper, then it is possible to completely detach the sling from the biner with the keeper by creating the same configuration as in the UK video. As in that video, the keeper is very likely to disguise the fact that the sling is no longer attached to the biner.
Once the draw is in this state, it could be used in various ways that don't involving weighting it for a while before it is actually loaded. The mistakes could have happened much earlier.
I'm not suggesting that this is what happened in this particular tragedy, but there must have been some systematic process to result in two defectively configured slings.
Never extend a trad draw by unclipping a single strand. Even if you don't have rubber keepers, you might lose the sling and the other biner.
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Eddie
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Jun 17, 2010 - 01:27am PT
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I use open style trad draws almost exclusively, and I HAVE seen this back clipping happen quite often.
In addition, if I understand the set up correctly, it seems likely that the back clipping could happen fairly easily in the act of clipping and unclipping the lockers from the harness (since the gate is open during this process and the slack loops are dangling nearby). Once you unclip from the harness your eyes shift to the bolt/etc where you are going to clip it. I've done this with my daisy chain a number of times.
However, I agree with a few others, it does seem a bit odd that it could have happened to both at once...
Perhaps the harness was not doubled back and the girth hitches just slipped right off the waist belt? Hmmm...I guess that would only work if they weren't hitched through the leg loop part as well...Perhaps girth hitched to a gear loop by accident?
mysterious.
Pete
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jun 17, 2010 - 09:41am PT
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My condolences to the family and friends. Very Sad indeed.
-Tom
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:48am PT
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Very sad to hear. Condolences to the family/friends.
What's going on this season? Seems more brutal than most.
Jesse posted earlier this week that they've had more climbing accidents in the Valley this season than in the past 2 seasons combined. Who knows why, some may be genuine accidents by folks who know their biz. Others less so, gym folks that may not know their way around the reality of climbing outside in a non-conrolled environment.
A number of the climbing accidents thusfar in the Valley haven't made it onto the web/media. One I found out about recently was a guy who broke a leg from a fall where he and his partner were toproping (I heard near Bishop's Terrace) off a sling with their rope. No carabiner, no ring, just rope against sling. And it burned through and the kid fell (but lived).
Hoping for a downtick in climber injuries this season. Seems like there's been way too many and it's only mid-June.
Cheers to a safer summer season. For all of us.
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Tendon
Boulder climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:05am PT
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Is it really that more people are getting hurt,
or do we just have faster, easier ways to communicate about it?
Seems like climbing has always been dangerous.
I mean were not bowling or playing golf here?
I think the internet is playing a huge role in the quantity
of climbing accidents we've been hearing about the past 10 years.
Before the internet would you ever hear of "no-namer" accidents
outside of your personal/small climbing community. Not usually.
With the internet we don't have to decipher hear-say as much,
we get detailed facts of incidents within hours of there occurrence.
I'm not blaming the internet, just saying we get information real fast these days, probably too fast.
Long story short, Check your sh#t everybody!
buddy checks and taking your time save more lives than anything.
Be safe all you crazy rock monkeys!
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jstan
climber
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:23am PT
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Clearly these are all factors.
That said, thirty years ago did any of us top rope with a rope running through nylon?
In the fifties, some areas did have groups attempting to exert control over what people were doing, as has been complained about above. Ultimately this was relieved by college groups and others taking up the challenge of providing instruction.
With the onset of concerns regarding litigation I wonder if the college groups and others are pulling back. The Sierra Club, has, for one. New economic forces are pumping up climbing activity but, as yet, the required levels of low cost instruction could well be in short supply.
If this is not resolved I think Rok's scenario of government action and reduced access will become ever more likely.
The death of this young lady is an unacceptable loss. Perhaps we need to begin thinking very seriously about these questions.
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ec
climber
ca
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Jun 17, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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Sad. Condolences.
I HAVE seen this back clipping happen quite often.- Eddie
What was described in this incident was NOT back clipping.
Too bad that this manner to anchor in and lower off in which to save time and to be convenient is seriously flawed.
It would be better to take the long way home and be alive.
 ec
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
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From a mathematical standpoint, how safe climbing is overall, depends upon the number of serious or fatal accidents relative to the total number of climbs being done. With so many more climbs being done, there are going to be more fatalities. That is more or less statistically inevitable. But overall, fatal accidents are extremely rare.
Certain climbing environments, such as K-2 are extraordinarily hazardous, i.e. a lot of fatalities relative to the total number of ascents.
Kim Schmitz and Todd Skinner are two examples of fatalities among very experienced climbers, so it is hard to attribute fatalities to inexperience alone.
John Fisher climbed for years, and probably had his share of runouts, near misses and close shaves, but he died in a motorcycle accident. Reardon survived years of free soloing, then is swept away by a freak wave. Galen & Barbara Rowell died in a plane crash.
The point I am making is that the climbing community does not have to get defensive each time there is a fatality. But its' great to share information, so that someone else doesn't make the same mistake.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Jun 17, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
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FYI:
This is the FIRST death of a climber @ the New River Gorge.
Considering how many people have climbed at the New in the last 20 years, it is not an epidemic, but even one death raises these issues.
My condolences go out to her family...
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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I think Kim will be a bit surprised to find out he's dead as well.
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murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
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Jun 17, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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Very sad news.
Maybe she used the keepers to prevent her tie-in runners from drooping while she climbed. Girth-hitching them to the biners does the same job, and no unclipping if you happen to re-clip.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jun 17, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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Schmitz isn't dead. Donini talked to him a couple of weeks ago. Said he sounded great and is climbing more then ever.
Mal
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
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If someone were keen to continue using the rubber keepers on their open trad draws, one way to make them safer (assuming they are not spectra) would be to tie a knot in them very close to the keeper. This would prevent the sling from unclipping.
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jcques
Trad climber
quebec canada
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Jun 24, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
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As most of you climb as much trad than sport, the distinction between both ethic could be harder. Accident was one of those differences. I think that the number of injury/mortality divide by the number of hour climber is higher in sport than in trad. On a sport route, when you arrive at the top, you clip both sling, sit on your harnest (you load your sling) and tell your body off belay. In trad, I put two caribiner, a sling to join both bolts, a locking carabiner to which I tie the rope and I also tie the rope to one carabiner close to the bolt for redundancy. It is long, boring, but safe. Both are routine and we can make mistake in both. When i climb a sport route, I don't use my set up and I'm scare each time my arms is pump. The question is why the sport climber didn't learn the trad technique when they climb in an adventure route?
In Quebec, where the majority of people climb sport and have a very low knowledge of trad. Those sport climber are difficult to talk with. They tought so much that they are pratically a new Shanna because they climb 5.11 in a year that they forget that they didn't learn all the safety rules that trad climber learn in 10 or 15 years.
I'm really sorry to the person. Now it is too late for her. Our goal is the next one"
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