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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Nov 15, 2005 - 09:42pm PT
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The waterchute to the right did look quite difficult. Awesome job. Clint please post a topo so Aldude can confirm. that's awesome. I thought Son of Dawn would be easier. DAM.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Nov 15, 2005 - 10:25pm PT
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Greg,
What would it take you to replace the 3rd bolt (I think) on Future Shock on the Monolith. It is a 3/8 by 3 and it wiggles a fair amount. It is the bolt everyone false on when blowing the clip after the crux moves. It is kinda scary.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 16, 2005 - 12:22am PT
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I think, because of the nature of the rock at the Pinnacles it is very important to make the distinction between routes that are sport routes which might entail multiple falls on one or more bolts and the more traditional routes at the Pinnacles where if you fall, you will definitely realize you are not on a sport route!
When recommending bolts, I think the best choices are determined by the type of route. IMHO, 3/8" bolts are totally appropriate for the more traditional routes and for top anchors. I can see using 1/2" bolts or glue-ins for "sport routes", especially the bolts at the hard sections.
I say all this because I don't want climbers panicking all over the Pinnacles when they read in this forum that 1/2" bolts are the way to go and they come across a 3/8" bolt in a situation which is totally appropriate.
Bruce
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 16, 2005 - 01:16am PT
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Good summary Bruce. The crucial bolts on heavy trade routes are the only real concern. The glue ins on a few of them have worked well.
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 16, 2005 - 01:22am PT
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Mud--
Funny you should mention the future shock bolt--I bailed off of it not two weeks ago because I wasn't willing to take that fall. That thing is a trip! I went above it two or three times before realizing I would rather go for the headpoint than take my chances.
Greg--
Still gotta stand by my earlier claims. Page 104 of the article talks about sleeve bolts in the same terms: you can sheer the head off. Also, there's the clean hole issue. Seems harder to get a clean hole in soft rock. I did jump to the wrong quotes from that article, but I think I'm at the right paragraph now. What do you think? Also, how do you understand the existing debate between wedge and five peice (since Clint has stated it exists)?
Bruce--
There are definitely more anchors to be aware of than this, but a few that pop into my mind are the top of Ordeal and the Sponge (high peaks). I'll try to spend some time going through the book soon. I'm thinking there's about half a dozen that could be better. Ordeal, for instance has one good bolt and another funky looking one. Also, The top of the second pitch of regular route on the Monolith. It's fine as anchor, but the rap chains don't equalize on rappel (if you're using the chains). This isn't an issue for guiding, but it is an issue for other things.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 16, 2005 - 04:13pm PT
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Here are the topos for Son of Dawn Wall, and the general line of The Waterchute, so Al can hopefully recall:
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/machwr.pdf
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/sonofdw.pdf
The Waterchute is mentioned in the 1983 Gagner guide as "4. Bolt Ladder" (p.108 photo), and "UNKNOWN AID ROUTE BOLT LADDER" (p.111 overview map).
The Waterchute is Al's name from the summit register for what he climbed in 1/84. The description from the register is:
"The Waterchute 5.9 A2 FA 1-28-84, Al Swanson. old bolt ladder, chute, connects with upper pitches of Son of Dawn Wall."
Description from when DES and Jim climbed the lower pitches of it a few years ago:
1. 5.9 50' - crack system left of aid line (crack to the right would be easier)
2. A1 40', many bolts every 7-8', 1 rivet
3. 5.10d 110', many bolts every 7-8', crux at last 3 bolts
4. 5.9 100', crux off belay, up face to chimney, many bolts, last bolt protects 5.8 bulge, up large water groove to belay bolt at top. All 3'8" with Metolius hangers, painted on the rock.
5. 5.? ~120' to top. Fixed locking biner 6' above belay. Star Dryvin w/ SMC hanger 40' up.
The route was since completed in 9/02 to the top and named "Sons of the West". Description similar to above at:
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/new.htm#355.2
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 16, 2005 - 05:05pm PT
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The 1992 article(s) in Climbing magazine by Duane Raleigh which billygoat is referring to can be found on the ASCA website:
http://www.safeclimbing.org/education.htm
The particular article on mechanical bolts which billygoat quoted from is:
http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/mechbolts.htm
and
http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/dangerbolts.htm
(there are some charts and a section on hangers which are not reprinted on the ASCA page).
The chart from p.102 is not ASCA site. It considers "soft" (1000 PSI), "medium" (2000 PSI) and "hard" (4000 PSI) rock/concrete. Smith Rock (welded tuff) is considered "medium". Volcanic rock at Cochiti Mesa and Enchanted Tower is considered "soft". It's not clear if Pinnacles (volcanic breccia) is considered soft or medium, but I expect it's soft.
Say we accept Duane's chart. Then Duane gives a slight nod to sleeve bolts (Power-bolt/Rawlbolt) over wedge bolts for soft and medium rock:
1. Soft [probably Pinnacles]:
1.A. Rawl bolt 1/2" x 3 3/4" = "may be suitable"
1.B. Rawl bolt 3/8" x 3" = [unsuitable = blank in chart]
1.C. Wedge bolt 1/2" x __" = [not in table]
1.D. Wedge bolt 3/8" x 3" = [unsuitable]
2. Medium [maybe Pinnacles best rock]:
2.A. Rawl bolt 1/2" x 3 3/4" = "fair"
1.B. Rawl bolt 3/8" x 3" = "may be suitable"
1.C. Wedge bolt 1/2" x __" = [not in table]
1.D. Wedge bolt 3/8" x 3" = [unsuitable]
Personally, I'm not sure a chart made by one person is the ultimate authority on 5-piece vs. wedge bolts at Pinnacles, although it does apparently reflect results from testing/breaking 325 bolts. I'm more into thinking about how much surface area of rock is being loaded by the bolt in a pullout type orientation. For this surface area aspect, larger diameter, sleeve, and multiple rings (on a wedge bolt) help.
Yes, there are many other issues, like what happens when you drive the bolt into the hole in soft rock (is the diameter increased; does the cone/wedge expansion area get jammed with debris/dust?). And overtorquing the sleeve bolt could potentially stress the head. Although with the size of wrench I use I doubt there is much chance of that. It might be fun to crank it as hard as I can and then do a full test on a few, though, to see if this is really an issue.
Practically, Bruce has the solution - use 1/2" (5-piece, wedge or glue-in) on popular sport route lead bolts, and accept 3/8" 5-piece or (SS) wedge bolts as being good enough for top anchors and lead bolts on less popular or lower angle routes. (It still leaves the question of 5-piece or wedge for 1/2"! :-) ).
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 16, 2005 - 08:41pm PT
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I would add one thing to Clint's discussion. During rebolting, one has a bit more leeway to find the best rock for locating bolts. Yes, we have moved a few protection bolts from bad rock to better rock.
Having said that, there is a lot of very good rock at the Pinnacles. Certainly, some of the surface stuff is suspect, even where this is good rock, but, on most of the classic routes the rock is pretty darn good.
Besides the Pinnacles, I have hand drilled bolts in the sandstone of the Flatirons and Eldorado Canyon in Boulder, Colorado. I haven't done any specific scientific studies, but it takes me 15-25 minutes to drill a 3/8" x 3.5" hole in the Pinnacles and it takes me right on about 15 minutes to drill the same hole in the moderately hard sandstone in Boulder, Colorado.
What this means to me is that the good Pinnacles rock is actually quite hard. Not granite hard, but probably medium hard and definitely not soft. Just like pulling off flakes on those Yosemite slab routes, the surface rock on some Pinnacles routes may appear soft but, the underlying rock is actually pretty good.
Of course, you can find examples where the rock quality is very poor, but the good, climbable, rock is not soft, IMHO.
Bruce
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 16, 2005 - 10:13pm PT
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Greg: "But the rock there [on Feed The Beast] is very soft for the first 3-4", then hits hard stuff. Cantaloupe Death is much better rock right from the surface. "
Clint: "It's not clear if Pinnacles (volcanic breccia) is considered soft or medium, but I expect it's soft."
From my experience, I find the 'dried mud' at the Pinns to be soft and the inclusions in the mud to be rock-friggin' hard. I've drilled bolts where the first couple of inches go like sand then blam, you hit something hard. On one route, we'd get through the first 1" no problem then hit inclusions. Big ones, the drill kept bounding back out. It took close to 45 minutes to drill some of our 4" holes, and our bits were new.
In super-soft rock, I will go with the 5-piece. However, the Feed the Beast incident, where two bolts loosened, cast doubts in my mind about using them. I won't soon forget clipping the second bolt and having it come out in my hand. Looking at a grounder, I had no problem down-climbing the crux.
SS wedges, so far, have worked great for me. Still, I believe that no matter what bolt you use in the Pinns, if it gets a lot of use, the rock around the shaft will begin to crumble. We'll see, but I believe this is true even with those fat 1/2" glue-ins. For this reason, 5-piece have the advantage that you can easily remove them, patch the hole, and put a new bolt in.
It's funny, but I've begun to wonder if facing the bolts down might actually lengthen their usefulness becuase the bottom edge of the hole will have less stress. Did this by accident on a route, but then I liked it, although it's kinda creepy.
:- k
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 17, 2005 - 12:58am PT
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"Looking at a grounder, I had no problem down-climbing the crux."
hahaha, some of the best motivation, and scariest.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 17, 2005 - 05:15pm PT
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Clint,
I was not able to view your link - Explorer does not handle this file? I really should have Rubines' book , Maybe I'll try to eyeball it at the local shop - if they have it. I remember free climbing a ladder so long that I barely had enough biners to clip all the mank. I single clipped the ancient hangers and needed flush gates on a few. This was against the common wisdom of the day when we used two biners per bolt ( no quickdraws in the early times ). Now I know better but back then it was de riguer. I did the route with Rich Kropp and it felt 5.11. I remember ending up below Pigeon Crack and finishing up that monstrosity - or was that on a free attempt with Pete on S.O.D.W.? It's been a few years!
Shout out to Kelly - I thought that was you. How the hell are you? Remember Too Close for Comfort? It's become somewhat of a testpiece at Clark. That micro mono has tortured many a would be suitor!!! Look me up when your down this way
Al
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James
Social climber
My Subconcious
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Nov 17, 2005 - 06:52pm PT
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Reading in the guide book about some 5.7 route that maybe had a bolt or a pin for protection and then going to look for it was pretty rad.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 17, 2005 - 07:41pm PT
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Yeah, Bruce is completely correct, we're talking about the popular overhung sport routes that will see a lot of falls and hangs on the bolts.
Mud - not in the Bay Area too often, and not sure how well that bolt on Future Shock would pull. Guidebook says 3.75" wedge bolt, so even if the top of the bolt moves, it may be really hard pulling the bolt (might not be able to and have to chop it and move it).
billygoat - 5-piece bolts are much stronger than wedge/stud bolts of the same size, especially in good rock. They are also much less likely to loosen. Here's the stats for 3" or so depth, sheer strength:
2000 psi concrete (soft Pinnacles?):
3/8" stud - 3560 lbs
3/8" 5-piece - 4380 lbs
4000 psi concrete (hard Pinnacles?)
3/8" stud - 3760 lbs
3/8" 5-piece - 7160 lbs
Almost twice as strong in better rock.
Also, the expansion sleeves on the 5-piece have much more expansion capability, and a larger surface area, than the small sleeves at the end of the wedge/stud bolts. And you can pull 5-piece bolts in the future but not wedge/stud bolts. However, it's not as obvious when they come unscrewed - if the nut of a wedge bolt is halfway off the bolt, it's pretty obvious, and that would probably have prevented the Feed the Beast accident.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 18, 2005 - 01:24am PT
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Al wrote:
> was not able to view your link - Explorer does not handle this file?
Oops, sorry those are Adobe PDF format, which requires that you download a PDF viewer to read it. Here are GIF versions which should display just fine in Explorer:
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/MACHWR2.GIF
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/SONOFDW2.GIF
>I really should have Rubines' book , Maybe I'll try to eyeball it at the local shop - if they have it.
It's a good book, but if you're on the east side of the Sierras, you won't be able to use it much! In the FA/FFA section in the back of the book it credits you for the FFA of Son of Dawn Wall, but doesn't give a date.
>I remember free climbing a ladder so long that I barely had enough biners to clip all the mank. I single clipped the ancient hangers and needed flush gates on a few. This was against the common wisdom of the day when we used two biners per bolt ( no quickdraws in the early times ). Now I know better but back then it was de riguer.
Yeah, I remember 2-biner clips on Green Dragon on the Apron! The number of bolts and rating (5.11) sounds like Son of Dawn Wall p1 (18 bolts - see topo above).
>I did the route with Rich Kropp and it felt 5.11. I remember ending up below Pigeon Crack and finishing up that monstrosity - or was that on a free attempt with Pete on S.O.D.W.? It's been a few years!
The main differences between Son of Dawn Wall and The Waterchute are:
 Son of Dawn Wall starts off the ground with 75' pitch with 18 bolts in a row; The Waterchute has a first pitch which is a crack, then a 40' bolted headwall pitch.
Son of Dawn Wall keeps going straight up a waterstreak for several pitches (see topo); The Waterchute goes up a waterstreak but the bolts run out, and the description from the register said it traversed left to finish on Son of Dawn Wall.
And while we're talking about Machete - do you recall the better name you had for the one-pitch crack you did, right of Machete Direct? (Rubine's guide calls it "Swanson's Crack").
Thanks,
Clint
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 18, 2005 - 02:26am PT
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Clint , You are a wiz at this tech stuff. Upon viewing the topos and checking some notes it 'dawned" on me that these were two different ascents. I was obsessed with Machete at the time and desperate to find a new free route. Never attempted the second pitch of Son (chossy bulge). Sheesh; 18 bolts in 75 ft. now thats a ladder!
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 18, 2005 - 11:35am PT
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Greg,
I think the guidebook may be wrong on that Future Shock bolt. It has a hex head, not a nut. But I'm going to see Tom Davis later today, and I can ask him. I'm pretty sure he'd be fine with replacing it--especially if a glue-in were involved.
Thanks for the info on the bolt strengths. Clearly, when 5-piece rawls are stronger when placed properly. Of course, I still like to doubt them b/c I don't think a lot of bolters place them properly. Also, I've been told it's damn near impossible for a 180lb climber to put more that 9kn force into a system. That's roughly 2,200lbs force. So, given that the bolts are new and haven't been weakend by the passing of time and abuse, I like to believe they're both plenty strong.
In overhanging, soft rock, prehaps the only acceptable solution would be glueins. I was talking with Doug Robinson yesterday about this issue, and we were dreaming up the possibility of a glue-in where the epoxy could better integrate itself into soft rock. As in, something with a slow setting time, that was partially absorbed into the rock. That seems like the next (possible??) step in bolt design.
Thanks for your help.
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scuffy b
climber
S Cruz
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Nov 18, 2005 - 11:50am PT
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Billygoat says:
In overhanging, soft rock, prehaps the only acceptable solution would be glueins. I was talking with Doug Robinson yesterday about this issue, and we were dreaming up the possibility of a glue-in where the epoxy could better integrate itself into soft rock. As in, something with a slow setting time, that was partially absorbed into the rock. That seems like the next (possible??) step in bolt design.
Try scrolling up to Hardman Knott's post of Nov 12, 9:25 AM
(the one with the pretty picture of a Ti glue-in) and reading
it.
sm
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 18, 2005 - 11:55am PT
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A few years ago these South African climbers did tests with glue-ins in soft sandstone and found that when tested to failure, they ripped big chunks of sandstone out of the rock. I think that the modern adhesive mortars do stick to the rock and can make the rock/mortar adhesion area even stronger than the surrounding rock.
Hopefully that bolt is a 5-piece, we can use the pulling gear to remove the sleeve and re-drill it for a 1/2" bolt or glue-in.
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 18, 2005 - 01:05pm PT
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Cool. Yeah, I think I just skimmed that the first time. Well, at least we can stop dreaming and start drilling--carefully. I'll have to show that one to Doug. I think he'll be pleased.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Nov 18, 2005 - 01:18pm PT
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Here's a direct "anchor" link (love the pun) that you can click
to jump directly to my post above without having to scroll.
I went over the post the other day and largely edited my semi-literate writing for brevity and clarity.
Also, the photo can now be clicked to go to the Tortuga page on the Ushba site;
once there you can click the More Info link to see a photo tutorial for installing these bolts,
as well as another article (with pics) on SCC by Skip Harper.
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