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short-rope penis-head
Trad climber
nor cal biiiaaaatch
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 10, 2005 - 06:31pm PT
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Hey people!
So the post about the Pinn's new guide book and retrobolting issues made me think about my past there. I grew up climbing there, as many of you may have, and love it. I realise that though I sometimes feel like it is my "local" area, it is a place to be shared with everybody! The Pinn's is special to us all, sooo...
What are some of your best memories of climbing at the Pinnacles?
Kevin Friedrich
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SoloBolo
Trad climber
groveland, ca
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Nov 10, 2005 - 08:53pm PT
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climbing a .10c with spinning glue-ins. turning 5.8's to 5.13's, hitting my belayer with the holds i just used'
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 10, 2005 - 10:18pm PT
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spinng glue-in????
where? when?
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Nov 10, 2005 - 11:13pm PT
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Pinnacles pisses me off..
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 11, 2005 - 01:24am PT
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Glue-ins are supposed to spin. That's how they're designed. Call Petzl for more technical details...
As for memories:
Soloing the first sister and realizing that I could actually hurt myself if that one loose section broke.
Telling Chris that there should be a line on the arete next to lardbut, then getting a call one evening after he and Sterling had figured the details of Uberminch out. Not that I ever really had a hand in it, but I swear Chris would've never climbed that line had I not insisted he should try (he thought the rock was too loose).
Third ascent of Loveline on the Hand. Pulled a huge block off the second pitch, and SteviDx got a real kick out of that as he watched from the Salathe route!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 11, 2005 - 01:46am PT
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billygoat is a crack up!
spinning glue ins, apparently they are all the rage in Europe this year.
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 11, 2005 - 01:48am PT
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No munge,
Tom Davis had the same problem, he called Petzl, and they explained the design. It'll all make sense if you ask those dudes.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 11, 2005 - 02:44am PT
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Doing and early repeat of "Piece of Ewe" on Goat Rock back in the mid 70's. The belay for the third pitch is a loose chockstone in a crack. The Chuck Richard's guidebook describes the first ascent and notes that since a fall from the crux on the third pitch would probably result in death of all climbers the FA party was forceably made to tie into a top rope and how a bolt now soundly protects the crux.
I go up there (30' out from the chockstone) and, for the life of me, can't find the bolt. I go for it (in true Pinnacles spirit) and make it only to have both my followers, who are solid 5.9 leaders, fall while seconding!
You gotta love it!
Bruce
ps - I probably should have known what was coming as the best protection on the second pitch was a jammed knot in a crack.
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short-rope penis-head
Trad climber
nor cal biiiaaaatch
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2005 - 03:11am PT
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Okay, I started this one so i've got to say mine.
One day in 2000 (I was 16 years old then) I went to the west side with my mom. I had my climbing shoes and a chalk bag, but no harness or belayer. I decided to climb Tilting Terrace solo, and when I got to the ledge (terrace) decided to solo up Adams Apple instead of going up the gully to the left. The best part is that when I was getting ready to turn that little lip/overhang crux thing on Adams Apple, my mom looked up from the slab bellow and was like "don't fall kev" and then kept reading her book. I don't even think she realised the risk I was in. Soloing pinn's 5.9 80 ft off the deck? Sh#t, your only 16 once.
Kevin Friedrich
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 11, 2005 - 03:53am PT
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Here's a string of moments which brings me evil grins...
Sitting on top of the monolith and reading James' post about soloing a bunch of routes that morning. Went back to cruz town, saw James, told him is was f*#king stupid for soloing at the Pinns. Few months later he fell and wound up...ah, ya'll know the rest.
I guess we all have had our brainless moments. At least I was soloing the first sister with a girl. Ha!
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Dog
climber
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Nov 11, 2005 - 10:13am PT
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Pinnacles is a great winter and spring playground. Hell, you can do 20-25 routes in a day.
And you know what, every time I go back, the routes change from the broken holds so its always a new experience.Take the Verdict for example. How many variations have there been over the years for the start.
Great place. Some great memories with great friends.
Cheers
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Mei
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 11, 2005 - 12:21pm PT
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My first outdoor climbing trip was to the Pinnacles (thanks to my early climbing mentors such as Dave Ross and Joan Marshall). When Mud heard about this, his comment was: "Wow, you got the best start in climbing!"
I remember following only one climb (might be Ordeal) before we called it a day due to weather. There, I heard the terms like rappel and flaking a rope the first time, and words such as gear, anchor, etc. suddenly started taking a new meaning (and got really confusing).
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 11, 2005 - 01:27pm PT
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Ah, have times changed! Rather than 20-25 routes in a day, how about 25 Pinnacles in a day. On Thanksgiving weekend in 1977 four of us tried to do 25 Pinnacles in a day the only caveats were that they all had to be 5th class routes and no headlamps. Man, leading Piglets as the light was fading and you could barely see was an adventure.
Bruce
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SoloBolo
Trad climber
groveland, ca
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Nov 11, 2005 - 02:49pm PT
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munge,
the bolt is the last one (most were sound i think)on cantaloupe death.
glue-ins designed to spin? bullsh#t...
every other bolt on that route was as solid as the pinns can be.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 11, 2005 - 03:57pm PT
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Some good memories at the Pinns:
Stumbling onto a new route on the Frog and climbing it to
the anchors, thanks Clint that was Great!
Watching my buddy blow a hook (and peal a huge rock) while bolting
on the Hatchet--the crowd at the resevoir clapped.
Topping out on Love Line. That was the best.
:- k
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salad
climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2005 - 04:32pm PT
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My first day on real rock was at the pinns too. it was august and 100+ on the east side. we did portent first. i put my shoes on before my partner led. he climbed then pulled the rope about half way up before i realized i wasnt tied in. he had to down climb half the route to get the rope back to me and we ended up doing it in two pitches. it was so hot that by the time i got to the top my feet had burned and i had BIG blisters on the tips of my toes.
we did all the easy classics that day, portent, swallows, ordeal, wet kiss, the 5.6 and 5.8 route on monolith, maybe the upper crust and finished with stupendous man(pulling that mantel got me hooked).
i had to lance the blisters on my feet before every climb.
my second day on rock was at donner and my partner whipped on Firecracker and broke his wrist.
Third day was on the west side, we climbed costanoan (partner in a cast still). that was my first lead and first time setting an anchor mid route. our ropes got stuck rapping power tools (my first or second rappel ever). epic.
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aldude
climber
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Nov 11, 2005 - 05:00pm PT
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Climbing "Torso" with Petey. e were so wigged at the site of that tottering phallus that we simo-rappeled on opposite sides to avoid vector forces we thought would bring the whole gnarly rig down on our heads TIMBER!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2005 - 07:00pm PT
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Bump
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Nov 11, 2005 - 09:35pm PT
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Third ascent of Cuidado. Pulled a grapefruit size hold out of the wall on the third pitch, locked off, and just sort of admired the whole situation. I was 17.
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doofus
climber
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Nov 11, 2005 - 09:54pm PT
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beautiful winter day....roaming the high peaks...half rope...climbing any line we saw.....sitting on top of a tower, feeling a woosh and hearing a hollow thud.....a puff of feathers rains down on us....falcon just snuffed a another bird
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 12, 2005 - 03:38am PT
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Oh yeah, I almost left out the time I was establishing a route and came across a Peregrine nest. Route is incomplete, not in the guidebook, and I want it that way. Let the birds be.
Hey, where was the hold on the 3rd pitch of Cuidado. As I recall, there was some sort of odd hole near the top of the pitch.
As for the glue in spinning issue, call Petzl. You're the bullshitters until you do so. They are okay when spinning b/c of the bend in their shaft and the fact that the epoxy and it's bond with the rock is what makes them so strong. When mixed correctly, the bond of the epoxy is supposed to be stronger than the rock itself. What determines the reliability of a glue in is the bond of the epoxy. Stop calling me a bullshitter just because you don't have any idea how a piece of gear is designed. You're just displaying your ignorance, and I find it really annoying.
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salad
climber
San Diego
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Nov 12, 2005 - 07:01am PT
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putting up some shitty obscure line in the rain. condors everywhere. drinking king cobra. meowing like a cat and experimenting.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Nov 12, 2005 - 12:25pm PT
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I came into this thread late, but I have some first-hand info about the spinning bolt issue.
It pertains mainly to the type of spinning bolt(s) on Cantaloupe Death in Pinnacles.
I'll cut to the chase, and anyone who so desires can read my rambling mini-novel below,
which includes info on Nancy and other routes at Mickey's Beach––and some important testing info.
The bottom line is that the bolts on Cantaloupe Death are bomber
despite any "spinning", and they will not come out no matter what.
And now for the mini-novel:
These bolts––and threaded rod, rebar, ect––are not held by "glue" bonding to them.
Hilti C-100 and HY-150 are more accurately referred to as Adhesive Mortars.
It is the threads, rings or dimples on the bolts that create the resistance to pulling out.
When the two parts of adhesive are mixed, a strong chemical reaction occurs and much heat
is generated. The mortar actually penetrates the pores of the rock, and when it sets
creates a fantastically strong resistance to pulling out, even though the mortar
doesn't stick very well to metal, if at all. If you look at the design of the first-generation
Tortuga (shown below), it will make sense that a bit radial movement is possible,
but is of no consequence (other than understandably causing some concern).
You will notice that there is no up and down or side to side movement of
any of the installed bolts, due to the immense strength of the mortar.
The only movement you might see is strictly a slight "spinning" on a radial plane.
Ushba Tortuga titanium bolt.
(Click photo for product and installation info)
John Byrnes (aka Lord Slime on rec.climbing) helped design a new bolt made of titanium
for rebolting in Thailand and Cayman Brac. He showed us a prototype
over beers at Jupiter in Berkeley––some time in 2000. I'm pretty sure Melissa, Brutus, and possibly
even Matt were there for the rare Lord Slime appearance in Berkeley (He lives in CO).
Having heard about Stress Corrosion Cracking, I was concerned about the bolts
on Nancy at Mickey's Beach. John Byrnes put me in touch with Jim Bowes of Ushba Mountain Works.
Jim was kind enough to sell me 8 of the very expensive bolts for half-price, since they were for a rebolting effort.
Chris McNamara put me in touch with ASCA's Greg Barnes, and I contacted first-ascentionist
Jim Thornburg, who also participated and oversaw the re-bolting.
A week or so later, I spent a couple days in Pinnacles with Greg Barnes hand-drilling holes
for new replacement bolts on Cantaloupe Death, Feed The Beast, and Regular Route Of The Thumb.
Shortly after, I noticed that a couple bolts on Nancy were moving ever-so-slightly.
Naturally, I was rather alarmed, and contacted John Byrnes, and Jim Bowes at Ushba.
John said that he had seen this happen occasionally, and explained in depth how the C-100 worked.
As an experiment, he had installed a couple of Tortugas, and let them set normally.
He then inserted a crow bar and began to wiggle back and forth until some movement started.
He kept at it until it spun so freely that it could easily be turned 360 degrees by hand.
He then set up the crowbar to pull straight out, using leverage to create a huge
amount of force––surpassing the strength of the bolt. The head of the bolt sheered off,
leaving the adhesive intact. He repeated the same experiment on the other bolt.
To further illustrate the immense holding power of Hilti C-100 adhesive, John sent me a little
pamplet from the German engineering/testing agency DAV, in which a special bolt
was designed that would actually exceed the pull-out strength of several popular
glues and mortars, This was one beefy bolt!! Hilti C-100 had the highest pull out strength,
and the mortar finally failed at 50 KN. Yes, you read correctly, that's fifty kilo-newtons!
FWIW, I mentioned/suggested to Jim Bowes that if the bolt somehow had a
flat area to resist radial movement, the bolt would no longer be able to move.
His solution was simple: He created small flat areas in just two spots on the shaft of the bolt
using a grinder. I received the first batch of these, and used them to replace the
hideously rusted carbon-steel bolts on Hot Tuna. That was in 2002. To this day
none of them have moved even a fraction. All of the subsequent re-bolted routes
also used this same modified bolt, and none of them move either – as far as I know.
I had a feeling that some of the 1st-gen. Tortugas in Pinnacles might be moving.
I never made it back down there, and was also not able to get definitive info
on the status of the bolts on Cantaloupe Death, Reg. Route, or Feed The Beast.
Incidentally, we used Fixe 6-inch long, 1/2" wide Stainless bolts
for Feed The Beast, and I would be curious to know how those are doing
(hand drilling those were a bitch––even in the relatively soft rock).
Ken Ariza told me that a couple of his Fixe bolts that he used on The Egg at Mickey's several
years ago moved ever so slightly.
Finally, I pondered long and hard over what to do about these bolts.
In the end, we felt is was best to let them be, but to try to inform as many
people as possible to reassure them that the bolts are indeed bomber.
I added some info to the Mickey's Beach Nancy section of Rockclimbing.com.
I suppose I should add similar info for the Pinnacles section.
It would be great if you locals could spread the info as well.
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Claude
climber
where I'll end up
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Nov 12, 2005 - 02:04pm PT
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Tom Davis, sensing my ignorant arrogance as a beginning climber told me to get on "Cantaloupe Death." At the time i'm thinking, "Dude thats only 10d, i can frickin send 11a in the gym, it'll be eeeeeaaaasy." Sketched from just looking at it, i still told myelf i could climb it 'cause i can send "so hard" in the gym and "i've been climbing for six months, i'll be fine." Seven moves into it i freak. I am thinking, "what the hell? where are the foot holds?" I fall right onto the boulder, grait off the thing, sliding down to where i started. Humble pie tasted great that day. mmm. Thanks Tom! Just one of the many great lessons learned from that man. Serioulsy, i owe a bunch to him.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 12, 2005 - 02:34pm PT
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Hardman, did Greg ever tell you why you used 6" bolts on Feed the Beast? I made a big donation to ASCA on the condition that he use it to rebolt that route and other trade routes at Pinns. I insisted on 6" on Feed the Beast because two people had already been hurt when the original first bolt (a 5 piece Rawl) had come out by unscrewing after repeated hangdoging. (Lots of people hang on that bolt, which protects the crux.) The bolt had been literally screwed back in each time, but it was clearly time for a better fix. The self interest that led to my request for 6" bolts on Feed the Beast in particular was that I had not yet redpointed that route at the time. You guys did a great job on all of these glue-ins. Diligent replacement and patching/camo of the old holes. ASCA is a fine organization, thanks.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Nov 12, 2005 - 02:54pm PT
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Hey Brad –– yes I remember that story quite well, and remember that Greg said you made a donation which was extremely generous. Greg told me that you were adamant about using those those bolts––LOL. Good call! It seemed like a really good idea considering the rock there.
There's a write-up somewhere Greg did on the rebolting, perhaps on the Friends Of Pinnacles site.
I remember that two of those old bolts were moving quite a bit, especially the crux bolt.
I had been thinking about trying to on-sight Feed The Beast before we chopped the old bolts;
I'm damned glad I didn't! I'll see if I can find the article.
Edit: I found Greg's write up on Clint Cummins' site. Lots of detailed info:
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/boltm301.txt
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 13, 2005 - 01:46am PT
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Not to hijack this topic, but, I know a few people who don't use 5-piece Rawls and swear against them based on the incident on Feed the Beast. Personally, I think, other than glue-ins, the 5-piece Rawl is the best bolt for soft rock, much better than wedge bolts, a number of which stick a long ways out at the Pinnacles because it took a huge number of turns for the cone at the back to finally catch in the soft Pinnacles rock.
What I don't understand about the Feed the Beast accident is how an experienced climber could allow a bolt to unscrew itself. It takes about 2.5 - 3 full turns for a 5-piece Rawl to unscrew itself and with only about 1/4 of a turn, the hanger is already spinning, a clear sign that the bolt is not tight.
OK, so maybe nobody climbs with a wrench but, c'mon, hand tightening a bolt and then expecting it to hold. That's not the Rawl's fault, that's the climber's fault. I hate to see incidents such as this cause a very good bolt to get a bad name.
Clearly, the bolt was poorly placed so as to unscrew itself and secondly, the climbers using it were not aware of the dangers of a loose bolt nor how to properly tighten a loose bolt. That's hardly the bolt's fault.
Bruce
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 13, 2005 - 02:56am PT
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Rawl five piece bolts are extermely hard to place. The require about 30 ft/lbs of torque to work. Too much, and they are useless. Too little, and they pose the problem encountered on Feed The Beast. That's why they are generally inapropriate for use in climbing: who takes a torque wrench with them to the crags.
Brad, did you use a torque wrench on Bridwell Bolts? If not, perhaps you actually did help maintain the character of the line. Personally, I think wedge anchors are a good choice (second to glue-ins) for pinnacles. Especially the double cone kind.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 13, 2005 - 03:41am PT
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Billygoat,
I just don't believe what you are saying. There are literally tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Rawl 5-piece bolts in use throughout the world. If these were such a poor choice as a bolt, then why don't we see a much higher failure rate (I know of only two instances when these bolts unscrewed themselves and I only know the details..Feed the Beast..of one of them and it was not, IMHO the fault of the bolt but the fault of the climbers and the poor placement of the bolt).
I just don't understand how you could hold the belief that the 5-piece bolts are bad. There is virtually no data to back up what you are saying. I like to make informed decisions and not base my decisions on speculation which is nowhere backed up by fact.
Bruce
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 13, 2005 - 03:58am PT
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It's hard to use glue-ins when you're going ground up.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 13, 2005 - 10:42am PT
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Bruce, I disagree with one part of what you said. I don't think that the bolt on Feed the Beast was poorly placed. I think Rubine was very careful and conscientious with his bolt placements. And the rock where it was placed was good too. I think what happened is that the first bolt saw an ungodly amount of hangdogging. I did some of it. You'd try the route and fail at the crux and hang on the first bolt. It overhangs a little there, and so any movement to any degree is always outward. Again and again and again people would hang on it, moving around, pulling up or out to get a better vantage point on the crux moves. Over years the bolt slowly loosened. That is , it unscrewed a tiny bit by a tiny bit. This was exacerbated by the sight overhang. And it was compounded by inexperienced sport climbers. No fault of their own necessarily, but they were brought up to think of bolts as bomber. You're right, no-one climbs with a wrench. It took years and years, but eventually some poor, unlucky sap was the wrong one to fall on the bolt without having checked it. Over those same years the hole itself became worse from the same forces, but I don't think this played a really significant role in the bolt failure. (I talked to Belizzi about this after he replaced the bolt the first time by simply screwing it back into the hole tight.) Other than this, I agree that Rawl 5 Piece are fine for Pinns, although in a few crucial places I've been replacing with 1/2" by 4" when I'm rebolting. An experienced bolt placer using this bolt leaves a perfectly safe placement (subject to rock quality and the ravages of time).
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 13, 2005 - 12:56pm PT
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Brad,
What I meant by poorly placed was that the placement allowed the bolt to unscrew itself. Could it have been placed in a manner such that it couldn't unscrew itself or maybe if the hanger was turned upside down it would have minimized the outward pull. But, that is just niggling and I think David Rubine has a track record of doing a good job of placing bolts.
I guess my major concern here is was there any warning the the bolt was going to pull out? No one of will ever know what actually happened but, it is very hard for me to believe that the bolt looked and felt bomber and just fell out of the rock. As I said before, with just 1/4" turn on a Rawl 5-piece the hanger will spin. If it takes 2.5-3 turns of the bolt to have it fall out, I have to believe that there was some indication that this bolt was not bomber before it failed.
Bolts will loosen over time. Even properly placed bolts. It is the responsibilty of every climber to inspect the bolts they are climbing on and determine if they are safe. In the case of Feed the Beast I just can't believe that a bolt that is about to fall out still appears safe. For that reason, I think the responsibility for the accident rests with the climbers and not with the bolt.
Bruce
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 13, 2005 - 03:17pm PT
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Bruce, I agree with everything you said. During the mid - late 90s, hoping to climb Feed the Beast I looked at, didn't like and so tightened the bolt at least twice. One of the reasons I gave to ASCA was because on this particular route I was convinced that the combination of factors wasn't "fixable." (Also, I wanted to redpoint it, but not die - you know, enlightened self interest.) This combination is very rare, even at Pinns, and when it occurs can be fixed by a careful rebolting using glue-ins.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 13, 2005 - 05:17pm PT
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Bruce, a "bad" bolt placement implies that the bolter didn't do a good job. I don't think the Feed The Beast bolts were "bad," but their location made them prone to loosening. Both the first and second bolts on Feed The Beast loosened over time, so I don't think we can say it's an isolated condition.
The possibility of a RAWL loosening over time is something that you have to consider when placing 5-pieces. It's almost impossible to predict how a hanger will spin before the route is complete, so I think it's something worth thinking about.
I've had nothing but good luck placing wedge anchors and the stainless ones are pretty darn nice. Still, if I know the rock is especially soft, I'll use a 5-piece, no question.
:- k
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 13, 2005 - 09:30pm PT
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anyone have any good sites that show a real mechanical advantage of having one type versus the other...
At first blush...
R5P (Rawl 5 Piece)-
1. more surface area of the expanding sleeve to hold onto inner part of the hole.
2. additional 'bite' from cone at the bottom as it expands when cranked down. So for a shorter bolt length, you get 2 points of contact, rather than 1 on a FSW.
FSW (Fixe Single Wedge)-
1. Easy to inspect threads.
2. drill the hole extra deep at first, and it is easy to hammer in and patch, but otherwise NOT replaceable compared to 5piece.
FTP (Fixe TriPlex)-
1. easy to replace
edited to clarify #2 for FSW about replaceability.
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 14, 2005 - 01:45am PT
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You know, I don't know that I need to say anything more about my opinion, because it seems like ya'll are kinda on my track. Except Bruce. All bolts loosen over time. I've had a close friend almost die b/c the nut on the head of a wedge anchor came loose when he took. Bummer. He didn't look at the bolt, but maybe that has something to do with how gripped he was when he clipped it (the route was 14a). So, even if he had a wrench, he probably wasn't going to reach over and tighten it on his onsight attempt. Of course, if Sonny Trotter (I believe that's who had placed the bolt, could be wrong) had used locktite on the nut, there never would have been a problem.
So, wedge anchors have their issues as well. My point about Rawl 5-pieces is this: the cone is drawn into the the sleeve and requires a specific amount of torque to (1) not break the blue plastic bit and (2) they unscrew easily when not tighted enough. So clearly they're easier to f-u-c-k up. They're tricky, and that's that. Many people use them, and many don't know what they're doing. Therefore, I have a harder time trusting them. If you're concerned about a wedge anchor pulling out 'cause of soft rock, then drill deeper and use a longer bolt. I don't think the problem at Pinnacles is so much how soft the rock is, as how prone to air pockets it is. But no bolt is going to mitigate that issue. Knock on the f*#king rock b4 you drill. Choose solid locations, or go for safety in numbers. But, either way, I'm much more comfortable trusting someone else's wedge anchors to their 5-piece, b/c I can read it quicker. If the nut is on, the nut is on. If the threads are way out of the rock, the threads are way of the rock. On a five piece, there's virtually no way to tell what kind of mechanics are going on inside the rock. And for god sakes, don't go tightening them a bit extra just for you supposed safety.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 14, 2005 - 03:10am PT
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Billygoat,
I don't know where you get the "except Bruce" impression. If you read my last post preceding yours, I clearly state that bolts loosen over time.
Bruce
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 14, 2005 - 03:17am PT
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Kelly, Brad,
I understand that when doing routes ground up sometimes the hanger on the bolt doesn't get properly aligned with the direction of pull. What I don't understand is why it is not possible to go back on the climb (most likely on rappel) and fix the problem by realigning the hanger to properly take the load without unscrewing.
Obviously, a completely flat surface is ideal, I usually carry a chisel (some people I know just use the chisel end of the drill bit) to make the placement as flat as possible. That should assure that the hanger gets properly aligned.
Also, on overhanging routes, you can minimize leverage on the bolt by rotating the hanger 180 degrees so that the carabiner is closer to the bolt hole when it is clipped.
Bruce
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 14, 2005 - 11:21am PT
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Actually, if the rock on Feed the Beast had been really good we could have used shorter bolts. But the rock there is very soft for the first 3-4", then hits hard stuff. Cantaloupe Death is much better rock right from the surface.
And the last bolt on Feed the Beast was in REALLY soft rock - I hand-drilled a 6" deep 7/16" hole in about 5 minutes. The old bolt was a 4" long 5-piece that moved up and down in the hole with about 1/2" of play.
Anyway, glue-in rotation is a common problem, and that's why most glue-ins you see in Europe are placed with the head inset into the rock (by drilling a little slot when you start the hole).
And k-man - if you're ground-upping and you want glue-ins, those new Fixe Triplex 12mm bolts are the bomb - use with a 12mm hole hanger, place the bolt ground-up, and to pull the bolt all you do is loosen the nut a bit and yard out on the draw - bolt pulls no problem. 3/8" or 10mm glue-ins use either 7/16" or 12mm holes, so all you do is make sure the depth is right and the route is ready to go for glue-ins. The Triplex bolts are re-usable as well. If you're leaving them in the wall for good, don't use the 12mm hole hangers since someone could pull the bolt super-easily if the nut loosens - use 10mm hole hangers (which are above the top of the sleeve/washer piece).
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 14, 2005 - 11:32am PT
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Oh, billygoat - I don't know what you're smoking, but 5-piece bolts are the easiest to place and hardest to screw-up of any mechanical bolt that climbers use. There's a reason they are super-popular in the construction business - hard to screw up. Wedge/stud bolts are impossible to inspect or even tell if they are wedge bolts - could be something like a threaded spike bolt or other weird bolts. And nearly every wedge bolt you run into is non-stainless and will need to be chopped and replaced with a new bolt in a new hole in another 30 years. Go to Europe and see all the rusty ugly wedge bolts a few inches from a nice glue-in, and you're looking at the future of a lot of crags here. Wedge bolts are popular because climbers are cheap.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Nov 14, 2005 - 03:56pm PT
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Wow, Greg awsome job down at the Pins. Just as a note since someone asked. At least one of the glue ins on Feed The Beast spins just a bit. I was thinking it would have to be replace but it is nice to know that it is bomber. Greg 6" bolts by hand! Once again thank you it is appreciated.
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 15, 2005 - 08:52am PT
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Hey Greg,
I smoke very rarely (it's bad for your lungs), and I don't appreciate you're assuming that I do. However, in a figurative sense, I'll tell you exactly what I'm smoking.
Climbing Magazine No. 134 (October/November 1992) pgs 102-103:
"Torque bolts. We didn't find any dependable torque bolts...which can be strong but...To place a torque bolt you tap the bolt into the hole and then torque it down, spreading an expansion cap at the back of the hole to create a friction hold. Sounds good enough...but the problem is these bolts don't have any leeway for user error. Torque the bolt too tight and you strip the expansion cap [edit: I mistakenly refered to this as the blue plastic thingy, sorry], ruining the placement. Get the bolt too loose and the cap will hold a pull-out load about as well as bubble gum on the end of a nail."
On Pg 102 of that issue, you will find a chart. This chart shows the suitability of various bolt types in soft, medium, and hard rock. None of the listed bolts are good for soft rock. Some of the solid head sleave bolts might be suitable depending on conditions. So we're left with one unlisted possibility: glue-ins.
To your benifit, the article doesn't recommend wedge bolts in soft rock. But to my beni, they do tout their ease of placement. I would also like to remind you that the ASCA (the organization you represent), has made this same point in its literature:
"Torque Bolts: [colon added for clarity]
Torque bolts have a hex or Allen head and a threaded bottom that screws into a lead expansion cone. They are only strong if precisely tightened with a torque wrench, but because most climbers do not use a torque wrench you should consider them all bad." (Chris Macs article "How to Rebolt")
As for Pinnacles rock: the quality does vary. If only glue-ins are suitable, then all other bolts are suspect and I stand by my earlier sentiments about safety in numbers.
Seriously fun having this discussion with you. I have a lot of respect for the work your organization does. Hope we can agree enough that one day you might provide me with some glue-ins to replace some of the f*#ked up anchors I guide off of at the Pinns (eeek!).
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 15, 2005 - 02:00pm PT
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Oh, the sweet irony. Billygoat, master of assumptions; specialist in pissing off everyone by assuming the worst possible motives and actions. Front man for stirring up crap about people he doesn't even know on issues of which he is ignorant. I quote: "... and I don't appreciate you're assuming that I do." Hey, man, people that live in glass houses, etc. If you can't take it maybe think about dishing it out a little less. Do some checking before you write. Give people a little slack. Your attitude is really too bad. You seem to love Pinns fairly well, and if you treated people a little less shitty, you'd probably make a fine addition to the community of climbers there. I respect your willingness to get involved and care, but that's where my respect ends (at least for now).
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de eee
Mountain climber
Tustin
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Nov 15, 2005 - 02:16pm PT
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I was on a trip to San Fran in 1971 (13 yrs. old)with my Mom and Sister and we stopped in Pinnacles to camp (a long trip in a '59 bug). We went hiking and saw some climbers by the Monolith. They were very friendly and offered me a rope on the "Direct." I was super stoked and ran back to the car to get my climbing shoes (hand me down Kronhoffers) as I hadn't had a chance to climb since my father died 2 yrs before. The route and summit were inspirational and it's been one summit after another till now.
Sorry about deviating from the bolt topic but it was a great memory for me!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 15, 2005 - 03:23pm PT
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billygoat wrote:
>Climbing Magazine No. 134 (October/November 1992) pgs 102-103:
>"Torque bolts. We didn't find any dependable torque bolts...
True, but the torque bolts discussed in that article are 2-piece 1/4" with a lead expansion cone. These were used on some granite routes in the mid-late 80s.
These torque bolts are pretty much unrelated to the Rawlbolt / Powers Power-bolt "5-piece" bolt, which is 3/8" or larger and uses a steel cone and a sleeve.
http://www.powers.com/product_06914.html
That being said, it's still true that there is disagreement among experienced Pinnacles climbers (Tom, Kelly, Bruce, Brad, Clint, Greg, etc.) on whether the 5-piece bolt or wedge bolt is better in Pinnacles rock. We do agree that the nonstainless wedge bolts should not be used. For the main debate, we need more data on failure problems in soft rock. While it's true that a wedge bolt instead of 5-piece would have been easier to inspect at the spot on Feed the Beast where the unscrew type failures occurred, that is an unusual situation/orientation, and that particular spot is of course solved now. Bruce and Greg have described the disadvantages of wedge bolts well, so the question does not have a clear answer, and it's not likely to be answered without some detailed test data.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Nov 15, 2005 - 03:39pm PT
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And that kind sirs is why we call him the "Beta Man".
Bow down and say Thank you.
Thank you
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Nov 15, 2005 - 03:43pm PT
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On another note.
Billgoat,
In one of these posts you stated that you freed Son of Dawn Wall. I think. I'm possibly mistaken. If so did you mean the 1st pitch or the entire route? It is my understanding that the bolt ladder has yet to be free climbed. Did you free the bolt ladder or is it still waiting for someone to free climb it?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 15, 2005 - 04:05pm PT
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"We" don't call him the "Beta man." We call him "the Keeper of all Knowledge." Good man either way.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Nov 15, 2005 - 04:42pm PT
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Clint Cummins has always been a great source for information.
Can someone buy that guy a beer?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 15, 2005 - 04:52pm PT
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Billygoat,
you mentioned that there are some f*cked anchors on routes which you guide. As someone who has replaced over 75 anchors at the Pinnacles, I would be very interested in knowing specific details such as the location and why you think that specific anchor is bad.
Bruce
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 15, 2005 - 04:54pm PT
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mud,
nope, never stated that.
Brad,
Whatever. I wasn't aware that you decided who is part of the exclusive "Community of Pinnacles Climbers Club." But now that I know, I'll keep that in mind. As for the rest of the folks, I think we get along alright. I suppose they would rather speak for themselves, though. I hope if I've gravely offended anyone, they can approach me and work it out.
I find it funny that you felt so compeled to respond to a post that wasn't even directed at you. Seems to show how vulnerable you are to criticism. I know my rhetoric is strong, and perhaps heavyhanded. That's part of the "Billygoat" image, but I don't think that represents me as a whole. I'm sure we'll meet someday, and it's quite possible we'll get along just fine. I, for one, hope so.
Clint--
Good point on the article. Although they do discuss the difficulties of trusting torque bolts w/out a lead cone (I believe it's on the following pages). Also, the ASCA does not recomend trusting them, and that's certainly current trade info.
Properly placed, nobody will deny that a torque bolt rocks. The real point is, unless you placed it, you have no way of knowing. Of course, you never really know 100% what's going to happen. But I know I'm not alone in feeling more comfortable on wedge anchors.
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 15, 2005 - 04:55pm PT
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Bruce,
Just saw your post. I need to go to work, but I'll definitely get back to you.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 15, 2005 - 04:57pm PT
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Hardman, I don't think he drinks. Instead give him food or found booty.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 15, 2005 - 05:24pm PT
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Billygoat (Justin?): yeah, your "rhetoric" is strong and heavy handed. But a lot if it is just plain stupid. I don't know what kind of "image" it is that you covet, but maybe others don't see you as you see yourself. I don't give much of rip about your "criticism" which isn't credible to start with. What bothers me is why someone who seems to have been around a bit just doesn't care about insulting people right and left. It's curiosity. Is it a sport for you? How can it not "represent you as a whole?" when it's all of you any of us know? With due respect, I doubt that we would "get along just fine" in person unless in person your remarkably different than this "image" you struggle so hard to foster. Good luck, you'll need it. Now, sorry to digress. I promise to leave you alone if we can get back to the subject at hand.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 15, 2005 - 05:47pm PT
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Oh now I get it, "torque bolts" in those articles are better known (well, at least more accurately known) as USE Diamond Taper bolts. Not related at all to 5-piece bolts.
Diamond Tapers were somewhat common around the '88-90 time period (at least on CA granite), not trustworthy especially in pull-out, although they seem to be fairly strong in the 3/8" version. Bachar liked the 3/8" ones, you'll find them on the original bolts on Peace (aka Die Hard) on Medlicott, the anchor on Trifle Tower near Mammoth, on several Bachar routes at Owens River Gorge, etc. Sometimes with hex head, sometimes with an eye bolt head (look like glue-ins). I've replaced maybe 10 of the 3/8" ones - pulled one cleanly at an anchor ('89 Errett Allen route at Benton), but the rest I just unscrewed and drilled through the lead sleeve.
But in the 1/4" version, they are wicked unpredictable. I've probably pulled around 50-75 of those, some were hard to pull, but most rip right out, and the good ones would be right next to the bad ones on the same route. Most of the time the lead sleeve stays in the hole and there's just a bit of lead in the threads of the bolt. It's easy to drill through the lead sleeve even with a hand drill, as long as your new bolt is larger diameter - the surrounding rock keeps the drill bit from sinking into the lead sleeve. If you try to hand drill through a 3/8" lead sleeve with a 3/8" drill bit, forget it.
The hex-head 1/4" Diamond Tapers look kind of like a 3/8" 5-piece at first glance (slightly smaller and half the hex head depth), and the 3/8" version look very similar to a 1/2" 5-piece head. You'll see both versions with allen key heads every once in a while.
If you do use stud/wedge bolts, at least use stainless. As Clint said, some Pinnacles regulars swear by them and never use 5-piece, while others are the opposite.
Oh - by the way - just because you see threads and a nut doesn't mean that it's a wedge/stud bolt - thread-head 3/8" split-shaft compression bolts were used on a number of popular routes at Pinnacles. I pulled several of those, and most just grooved a slot into the rock as they were pounded in, so removing them was super-easy. But a couple were actually compressed on the Verdict - better rock (and a LOT longer time hand-drilling on that one for the three 6" glue-ins I used). Rubine has those bolts noted in his index ('3/8" split shaft'). The pull-out strength of those bolts in most Pinnacles rock is very low, if you hang on one or rap off one, load in shear, don't pull straight out (a good recommendation for any questionable bolt).
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 15, 2005 - 06:04pm PT
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OK, Greg, people who know you respect your opinion highly. What bolts are preferred then for Pinns: A) When establishing a route on lead; and B) When rebolting? (I didn't quite track your comments about glue ins that might work on lead). Carbon steel (higher sheer strength?) Or stainless? (not as subject to rust.) Also, given that probably the majority of bolts at Pinns are now Rawl 5 Piece is there a major problem, or an occasional, low probabilty set of risks? Please provide explanations of your opinions. (This examination will comprise half your final semester grade.)
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 15, 2005 - 06:05pm PT
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Mud - I mentioned that I had freed the bolt ladder on Son of Dawn Wall. Since I don't have Rubines' guide I'm not sure if it was Son or Bolt Ladder route next door(Gagner 83')
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 15, 2005 - 06:10pm PT
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mynameismud (DES, my long time Pinnacles FA partner!) wrote:
>In one of these posts you stated that you freed Son of Dawn Wall. I think. I'm possibly mistaken. If so did you mean the 1st pitch or the entire route?
Actually it was aldude (Al Swanson) who wrote that, in the "other" Pinnacles thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=117726#msg117889
>It is my understanding that the bolt ladder has yet to be free climbed. Did you free the bolt ladder or is it still waiting for someone to free climb it?
I don't think Al freed the *second pitch* bolt ladder, but maybe he'll confirm. I heard from a guy a year or two ago who free the individual moves on toprope but then a key flake broke off when he tried to link it.
I recall reading in the "summit register" (wooden box 1 pitch below summit on Son of Dawn Wall) that Al did the first ascent of "The Waterchute" in 1/84, which sounded like the next chute right of the Son of Dawn Wall (finished by traversing back left to Son of Dawn Wall, which looks tough). I'd like to hear more about that if he remembers it! I can scan/post a topo of those 2 routes if it helps.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 15, 2005 - 09:14pm PT
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Well Brad, I've done exactly one FFA at Pinnacles and drilled zero bolts on lead there, so I'm no authority.
If I were doing a new route there that was likely to be popular, and wanted the best bolts, I'd use 12mm Triplex bolts on lead, then go and replace them right away with glue ins.
Advantage is that you can bring both short and long Triplex, and if you're sketching on the stance/hook or if the rock is hard, use the short ones. The bolts slide in the hole easily which is great for lead (as long as the rock isn't really hard and/or your drill bit is worn). Since it's pretty hard to do any damage to a drill bit there and you can hit the hand drill really really hard, I wouldn't worry about 12mm versus 3/8" for drilling on lead, but I do a lot of hand drilling and 12mm might be a bit much for some folks.
There's not much strength difference between stainless and non-stainless 5-pieces, and since Pinnacles rock is generally porous, water will evaporate through the rock and rusting will be limited (like in softer sandstone). And since stainless 3/8" 5-pieces are only available in 2.25" and 3.5", if you want 3" long you have to go non-stainless.
5-pieces haven't failed many places, so unless the bolt is unscrewed or moves in the hole (especially up & down from repeated falls/hangs), I would guess that the bolts are fine. I'd be far more suspicious of the 3/8" split-shaft bolts.
For rebolting with mechanical bolts, I'd recommend 1/2" x 3.75" 5-pieces (which are non-stainless, stainless are only 2.75" or 4.75"). But again, I'm used to hand drilling and they don't seem that big a deal to drill at Pinnacles.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Nov 15, 2005 - 09:42pm PT
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The waterchute to the right did look quite difficult. Awesome job. Clint please post a topo so Aldude can confirm. that's awesome. I thought Son of Dawn would be easier. DAM.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Nov 15, 2005 - 10:25pm PT
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Greg,
What would it take you to replace the 3rd bolt (I think) on Future Shock on the Monolith. It is a 3/8 by 3 and it wiggles a fair amount. It is the bolt everyone false on when blowing the clip after the crux moves. It is kinda scary.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 16, 2005 - 12:22am PT
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I think, because of the nature of the rock at the Pinnacles it is very important to make the distinction between routes that are sport routes which might entail multiple falls on one or more bolts and the more traditional routes at the Pinnacles where if you fall, you will definitely realize you are not on a sport route!
When recommending bolts, I think the best choices are determined by the type of route. IMHO, 3/8" bolts are totally appropriate for the more traditional routes and for top anchors. I can see using 1/2" bolts or glue-ins for "sport routes", especially the bolts at the hard sections.
I say all this because I don't want climbers panicking all over the Pinnacles when they read in this forum that 1/2" bolts are the way to go and they come across a 3/8" bolt in a situation which is totally appropriate.
Bruce
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 16, 2005 - 01:16am PT
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Good summary Bruce. The crucial bolts on heavy trade routes are the only real concern. The glue ins on a few of them have worked well.
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 16, 2005 - 01:22am PT
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Mud--
Funny you should mention the future shock bolt--I bailed off of it not two weeks ago because I wasn't willing to take that fall. That thing is a trip! I went above it two or three times before realizing I would rather go for the headpoint than take my chances.
Greg--
Still gotta stand by my earlier claims. Page 104 of the article talks about sleeve bolts in the same terms: you can sheer the head off. Also, there's the clean hole issue. Seems harder to get a clean hole in soft rock. I did jump to the wrong quotes from that article, but I think I'm at the right paragraph now. What do you think? Also, how do you understand the existing debate between wedge and five peice (since Clint has stated it exists)?
Bruce--
There are definitely more anchors to be aware of than this, but a few that pop into my mind are the top of Ordeal and the Sponge (high peaks). I'll try to spend some time going through the book soon. I'm thinking there's about half a dozen that could be better. Ordeal, for instance has one good bolt and another funky looking one. Also, The top of the second pitch of regular route on the Monolith. It's fine as anchor, but the rap chains don't equalize on rappel (if you're using the chains). This isn't an issue for guiding, but it is an issue for other things.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 16, 2005 - 04:13pm PT
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Here are the topos for Son of Dawn Wall, and the general line of The Waterchute, so Al can hopefully recall:
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/machwr.pdf
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/sonofdw.pdf
The Waterchute is mentioned in the 1983 Gagner guide as "4. Bolt Ladder" (p.108 photo), and "UNKNOWN AID ROUTE BOLT LADDER" (p.111 overview map).
The Waterchute is Al's name from the summit register for what he climbed in 1/84. The description from the register is:
"The Waterchute 5.9 A2 FA 1-28-84, Al Swanson. old bolt ladder, chute, connects with upper pitches of Son of Dawn Wall."
Description from when DES and Jim climbed the lower pitches of it a few years ago:
1. 5.9 50' - crack system left of aid line (crack to the right would be easier)
2. A1 40', many bolts every 7-8', 1 rivet
3. 5.10d 110', many bolts every 7-8', crux at last 3 bolts
4. 5.9 100', crux off belay, up face to chimney, many bolts, last bolt protects 5.8 bulge, up large water groove to belay bolt at top. All 3'8" with Metolius hangers, painted on the rock.
5. 5.? ~120' to top. Fixed locking biner 6' above belay. Star Dryvin w/ SMC hanger 40' up.
The route was since completed in 9/02 to the top and named "Sons of the West". Description similar to above at:
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/new.htm#355.2
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 16, 2005 - 05:05pm PT
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The 1992 article(s) in Climbing magazine by Duane Raleigh which billygoat is referring to can be found on the ASCA website:
http://www.safeclimbing.org/education.htm
The particular article on mechanical bolts which billygoat quoted from is:
http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/mechbolts.htm
and
http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/dangerbolts.htm
(there are some charts and a section on hangers which are not reprinted on the ASCA page).
The chart from p.102 is not ASCA site. It considers "soft" (1000 PSI), "medium" (2000 PSI) and "hard" (4000 PSI) rock/concrete. Smith Rock (welded tuff) is considered "medium". Volcanic rock at Cochiti Mesa and Enchanted Tower is considered "soft". It's not clear if Pinnacles (volcanic breccia) is considered soft or medium, but I expect it's soft.
Say we accept Duane's chart. Then Duane gives a slight nod to sleeve bolts (Power-bolt/Rawlbolt) over wedge bolts for soft and medium rock:
1. Soft [probably Pinnacles]:
1.A. Rawl bolt 1/2" x 3 3/4" = "may be suitable"
1.B. Rawl bolt 3/8" x 3" = [unsuitable = blank in chart]
1.C. Wedge bolt 1/2" x __" = [not in table]
1.D. Wedge bolt 3/8" x 3" = [unsuitable]
2. Medium [maybe Pinnacles best rock]:
2.A. Rawl bolt 1/2" x 3 3/4" = "fair"
1.B. Rawl bolt 3/8" x 3" = "may be suitable"
1.C. Wedge bolt 1/2" x __" = [not in table]
1.D. Wedge bolt 3/8" x 3" = [unsuitable]
Personally, I'm not sure a chart made by one person is the ultimate authority on 5-piece vs. wedge bolts at Pinnacles, although it does apparently reflect results from testing/breaking 325 bolts. I'm more into thinking about how much surface area of rock is being loaded by the bolt in a pullout type orientation. For this surface area aspect, larger diameter, sleeve, and multiple rings (on a wedge bolt) help.
Yes, there are many other issues, like what happens when you drive the bolt into the hole in soft rock (is the diameter increased; does the cone/wedge expansion area get jammed with debris/dust?). And overtorquing the sleeve bolt could potentially stress the head. Although with the size of wrench I use I doubt there is much chance of that. It might be fun to crank it as hard as I can and then do a full test on a few, though, to see if this is really an issue.
Practically, Bruce has the solution - use 1/2" (5-piece, wedge or glue-in) on popular sport route lead bolts, and accept 3/8" 5-piece or (SS) wedge bolts as being good enough for top anchors and lead bolts on less popular or lower angle routes. (It still leaves the question of 5-piece or wedge for 1/2"! :-) ).
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 16, 2005 - 08:41pm PT
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I would add one thing to Clint's discussion. During rebolting, one has a bit more leeway to find the best rock for locating bolts. Yes, we have moved a few protection bolts from bad rock to better rock.
Having said that, there is a lot of very good rock at the Pinnacles. Certainly, some of the surface stuff is suspect, even where this is good rock, but, on most of the classic routes the rock is pretty darn good.
Besides the Pinnacles, I have hand drilled bolts in the sandstone of the Flatirons and Eldorado Canyon in Boulder, Colorado. I haven't done any specific scientific studies, but it takes me 15-25 minutes to drill a 3/8" x 3.5" hole in the Pinnacles and it takes me right on about 15 minutes to drill the same hole in the moderately hard sandstone in Boulder, Colorado.
What this means to me is that the good Pinnacles rock is actually quite hard. Not granite hard, but probably medium hard and definitely not soft. Just like pulling off flakes on those Yosemite slab routes, the surface rock on some Pinnacles routes may appear soft but, the underlying rock is actually pretty good.
Of course, you can find examples where the rock quality is very poor, but the good, climbable, rock is not soft, IMHO.
Bruce
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 16, 2005 - 10:13pm PT
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Greg: "But the rock there [on Feed The Beast] is very soft for the first 3-4", then hits hard stuff. Cantaloupe Death is much better rock right from the surface. "
Clint: "It's not clear if Pinnacles (volcanic breccia) is considered soft or medium, but I expect it's soft."
From my experience, I find the 'dried mud' at the Pinns to be soft and the inclusions in the mud to be rock-friggin' hard. I've drilled bolts where the first couple of inches go like sand then blam, you hit something hard. On one route, we'd get through the first 1" no problem then hit inclusions. Big ones, the drill kept bounding back out. It took close to 45 minutes to drill some of our 4" holes, and our bits were new.
In super-soft rock, I will go with the 5-piece. However, the Feed the Beast incident, where two bolts loosened, cast doubts in my mind about using them. I won't soon forget clipping the second bolt and having it come out in my hand. Looking at a grounder, I had no problem down-climbing the crux.
SS wedges, so far, have worked great for me. Still, I believe that no matter what bolt you use in the Pinns, if it gets a lot of use, the rock around the shaft will begin to crumble. We'll see, but I believe this is true even with those fat 1/2" glue-ins. For this reason, 5-piece have the advantage that you can easily remove them, patch the hole, and put a new bolt in.
It's funny, but I've begun to wonder if facing the bolts down might actually lengthen their usefulness becuase the bottom edge of the hole will have less stress. Did this by accident on a route, but then I liked it, although it's kinda creepy.
:- k
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 17, 2005 - 12:58am PT
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"Looking at a grounder, I had no problem down-climbing the crux."
hahaha, some of the best motivation, and scariest.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 17, 2005 - 05:15pm PT
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Clint,
I was not able to view your link - Explorer does not handle this file? I really should have Rubines' book , Maybe I'll try to eyeball it at the local shop - if they have it. I remember free climbing a ladder so long that I barely had enough biners to clip all the mank. I single clipped the ancient hangers and needed flush gates on a few. This was against the common wisdom of the day when we used two biners per bolt ( no quickdraws in the early times ). Now I know better but back then it was de riguer. I did the route with Rich Kropp and it felt 5.11. I remember ending up below Pigeon Crack and finishing up that monstrosity - or was that on a free attempt with Pete on S.O.D.W.? It's been a few years!
Shout out to Kelly - I thought that was you. How the hell are you? Remember Too Close for Comfort? It's become somewhat of a testpiece at Clark. That micro mono has tortured many a would be suitor!!! Look me up when your down this way
Al
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James
Social climber
My Subconcious
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Nov 17, 2005 - 06:52pm PT
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Reading in the guide book about some 5.7 route that maybe had a bolt or a pin for protection and then going to look for it was pretty rad.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 17, 2005 - 07:41pm PT
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Yeah, Bruce is completely correct, we're talking about the popular overhung sport routes that will see a lot of falls and hangs on the bolts.
Mud - not in the Bay Area too often, and not sure how well that bolt on Future Shock would pull. Guidebook says 3.75" wedge bolt, so even if the top of the bolt moves, it may be really hard pulling the bolt (might not be able to and have to chop it and move it).
billygoat - 5-piece bolts are much stronger than wedge/stud bolts of the same size, especially in good rock. They are also much less likely to loosen. Here's the stats for 3" or so depth, sheer strength:
2000 psi concrete (soft Pinnacles?):
3/8" stud - 3560 lbs
3/8" 5-piece - 4380 lbs
4000 psi concrete (hard Pinnacles?)
3/8" stud - 3760 lbs
3/8" 5-piece - 7160 lbs
Almost twice as strong in better rock.
Also, the expansion sleeves on the 5-piece have much more expansion capability, and a larger surface area, than the small sleeves at the end of the wedge/stud bolts. And you can pull 5-piece bolts in the future but not wedge/stud bolts. However, it's not as obvious when they come unscrewed - if the nut of a wedge bolt is halfway off the bolt, it's pretty obvious, and that would probably have prevented the Feed the Beast accident.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 18, 2005 - 01:24am PT
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Al wrote:
> was not able to view your link - Explorer does not handle this file?
Oops, sorry those are Adobe PDF format, which requires that you download a PDF viewer to read it. Here are GIF versions which should display just fine in Explorer:
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/MACHWR2.GIF
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/SONOFDW2.GIF
>I really should have Rubines' book , Maybe I'll try to eyeball it at the local shop - if they have it.
It's a good book, but if you're on the east side of the Sierras, you won't be able to use it much! In the FA/FFA section in the back of the book it credits you for the FFA of Son of Dawn Wall, but doesn't give a date.
>I remember free climbing a ladder so long that I barely had enough biners to clip all the mank. I single clipped the ancient hangers and needed flush gates on a few. This was against the common wisdom of the day when we used two biners per bolt ( no quickdraws in the early times ). Now I know better but back then it was de riguer.
Yeah, I remember 2-biner clips on Green Dragon on the Apron! The number of bolts and rating (5.11) sounds like Son of Dawn Wall p1 (18 bolts - see topo above).
>I did the route with Rich Kropp and it felt 5.11. I remember ending up below Pigeon Crack and finishing up that monstrosity - or was that on a free attempt with Pete on S.O.D.W.? It's been a few years!
The main differences between Son of Dawn Wall and The Waterchute are:
 Son of Dawn Wall starts off the ground with 75' pitch with 18 bolts in a row; The Waterchute has a first pitch which is a crack, then a 40' bolted headwall pitch.
Son of Dawn Wall keeps going straight up a waterstreak for several pitches (see topo); The Waterchute goes up a waterstreak but the bolts run out, and the description from the register said it traversed left to finish on Son of Dawn Wall.
And while we're talking about Machete - do you recall the better name you had for the one-pitch crack you did, right of Machete Direct? (Rubine's guide calls it "Swanson's Crack").
Thanks,
Clint
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 18, 2005 - 02:26am PT
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Clint , You are a wiz at this tech stuff. Upon viewing the topos and checking some notes it 'dawned" on me that these were two different ascents. I was obsessed with Machete at the time and desperate to find a new free route. Never attempted the second pitch of Son (chossy bulge). Sheesh; 18 bolts in 75 ft. now thats a ladder!
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 18, 2005 - 11:35am PT
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Greg,
I think the guidebook may be wrong on that Future Shock bolt. It has a hex head, not a nut. But I'm going to see Tom Davis later today, and I can ask him. I'm pretty sure he'd be fine with replacing it--especially if a glue-in were involved.
Thanks for the info on the bolt strengths. Clearly, when 5-piece rawls are stronger when placed properly. Of course, I still like to doubt them b/c I don't think a lot of bolters place them properly. Also, I've been told it's damn near impossible for a 180lb climber to put more that 9kn force into a system. That's roughly 2,200lbs force. So, given that the bolts are new and haven't been weakend by the passing of time and abuse, I like to believe they're both plenty strong.
In overhanging, soft rock, prehaps the only acceptable solution would be glueins. I was talking with Doug Robinson yesterday about this issue, and we were dreaming up the possibility of a glue-in where the epoxy could better integrate itself into soft rock. As in, something with a slow setting time, that was partially absorbed into the rock. That seems like the next (possible??) step in bolt design.
Thanks for your help.
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scuffy b
climber
S Cruz
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Nov 18, 2005 - 11:50am PT
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Billygoat says:
In overhanging, soft rock, prehaps the only acceptable solution would be glueins. I was talking with Doug Robinson yesterday about this issue, and we were dreaming up the possibility of a glue-in where the epoxy could better integrate itself into soft rock. As in, something with a slow setting time, that was partially absorbed into the rock. That seems like the next (possible??) step in bolt design.
Try scrolling up to Hardman Knott's post of Nov 12, 9:25 AM
(the one with the pretty picture of a Ti glue-in) and reading
it.
sm
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 18, 2005 - 11:55am PT
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A few years ago these South African climbers did tests with glue-ins in soft sandstone and found that when tested to failure, they ripped big chunks of sandstone out of the rock. I think that the modern adhesive mortars do stick to the rock and can make the rock/mortar adhesion area even stronger than the surrounding rock.
Hopefully that bolt is a 5-piece, we can use the pulling gear to remove the sleeve and re-drill it for a 1/2" bolt or glue-in.
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 18, 2005 - 01:05pm PT
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Cool. Yeah, I think I just skimmed that the first time. Well, at least we can stop dreaming and start drilling--carefully. I'll have to show that one to Doug. I think he'll be pleased.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Nov 18, 2005 - 01:18pm PT
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Here's a direct "anchor" link (love the pun) that you can click
to jump directly to my post above without having to scroll.
I went over the post the other day and largely edited my semi-literate writing for brevity and clarity.
Also, the photo can now be clicked to go to the Tortuga page on the Ushba site;
once there you can click the More Info link to see a photo tutorial for installing these bolts,
as well as another article (with pics) on SCC by Skip Harper.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 18, 2005 - 01:25pm PT
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Al,
Do you know who did the bolt ladder up and right of the last 2/3rds of Machete Direct? It's not in the guidebook. It starts up high. You can reach it by by climbing what is called the "Upper Bandits Bench" route and traversing left on 5th class terrain?
I can probably send you a pic with the position of it pointed out.
Also, there was allegedly a Colliver route off right from Machete Direct, but left of Bandits Bench area. Remember anything about that?
Clint, help me out on this if I'm not describing the locations properly.
Thx much!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 18, 2005 - 03:59pm PT
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Al !!
Heck yeah I remember Too Close, I wonder how that thing would feel now? Ahh, yes. Funny, I remember a couple of other things as well, hum, yeah. Something about Keroke...
Still playin' those keys? I picked up bass recently and have been trying to hold down the bottom end with some good friends. Where are you hangin' these days??
:- k
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scuffy b
climber
S Cruz
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Nov 18, 2005 - 04:15pm PT
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Hardman Knott, you rock! Thanks for the "cleanup" and all
the links you introduce.
sm
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 18, 2005 - 04:38pm PT
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Munge - Now we really are entering obscur - o - land.Yes send me a photo I think I remember that route - I wanna say those Citadel guys but those were quarter inchers weren't they? Don't remember ground level Colliver route but I'm going into full research mode now - out comes the Richards book.
Clint - Eyeballin those topos and the Gagner book it seems that SODW starts near the West Face and traverses almost straight right (5.4 in your topo ) to join start of second pitch. Also Gagner shows unidentified "aid route" above 5.4 traverse and your topo confirms that with a line of bolts heading towards SODW,end of third pitch. What's that? So it seems as though the 18 bolt ladder was added post 1982 and not really part of SODW merely a direct start. I do remember slings on some of the bolts - lower outs? MUST SEE RUBINE BOOK, then I'll be up to speed
Late, Al
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 18, 2005 - 04:51pm PT
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K-Man, Do you mean "Karaoke"? Refresh my memory. Still playin - I'm in a band called " Naughty Boy " w/Paul Borne . Livin in Josh and guiding. email me!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 18, 2005 - 10:14pm PT
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will do Al. The bolt ladder has some old white tat sling that looks like it's been there forever. The bolts on that line are actually star dryvs, the ones I could see anyways.
the colliver route, or at least the mystery pitch that I'm thinking may be part of an old colliver route, is at mid-height, though originally it could have gone from the ground, there is an old 1/4" near a tree that touches the wall up and right on the hill from the bouldering arch/big roof, and left of Alias Bandit Bench.
In any event there are now a couple additional nice lines up there besides the ones we are talking about. If you are ever up that way and want a tour of the newer stuff, we're at your disposal.
Sounds like it's time for a pinnacles reunion complete with live band.
Anyone think Jack Holmgren will show? Man that guy can drill.
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 19, 2005 - 12:46am PT
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Greg,
Talked with Tom Davis. He sez it's a 5-piece if it's gotta hex head. He also offered me the use of his special tool that he uses to remove the sleeve of the bolt. Sez it works fine with a little care. He'd be psyched to have glue-in's on both the third and fourth bolts.
What's the chances of getting a little ASCA help on this one? I must admit, I've never placed a glue in before. Probably drilled about twenty or thirty holes total.
thanks for all your advice.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 19, 2005 - 02:59am PT
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Munge, PARTY - now that's something I know how to do. Looked at Rubine guide - Bandits in Bondage? McConahie brothers?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 19, 2005 - 11:08am PT
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Greg, maybe it is time for some more ASCA work at Pinns? I'd make a large or very large donation. Anyone else in for some dough? If you go for it, maybe you could drag along some of the climbers who'd like to learn about rebolting sport routes there and start spreading the knowledge.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 19, 2005 - 01:53pm PT
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Look out Billygoat when TD says he has a special tool for ya!
Protection takes on a new meaning...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 19, 2005 - 07:53pm PT
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Just as a clarification, the ASCA has been sponsoring rebolting activities at the Pinnacles National Monument for some time now. They have provided hangers and bolts to the Friends of Pinnacles(www.pinnacles.org) for the past four years. The majority of this hardware has been used in the High Peaks and the West Side, replacing 1/4" and other suspect anchor and protection bolts, though we have responded when individual cases were brought to our attention.
As of December 2004, the Friends of Pinnacles had replaced the anchors and installed chains or links for rappel on every Pinnacle in the High Peaks that we knew of (and some that we found out about during our efforts).
OK. So we didn't do Lower Teapot Dome but, it is protected by poison oak and I break out just looking at PO.
Bruce
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Apr 25, 2007 - 02:15am PT
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Al,
whoa, just reran across this post. Do you still need a pic of the wall? I understand some headway has been made on identifying Glenn Deny routes. I'm assuming you are talking to Clint now about it.
lemme know
M
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Apr 27, 2007 - 02:18pm PT
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Speaking of bolts, how are the old ones I put in on Shake and Bake many years back? Holding up? Replaced?
For lovers of Pinns and history, there are some pics (one pretty good one on Shake and Bake)and tales of climbs from various publications (Ascent, AAC Journal) at www.tomhiggins.net.
Good climbing!
Long Ago
Tom Higgins
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 27, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
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Just noticed this revived thread. Yes Munge , send me the pic! Love that Jody pic.... nothin like crud-n-mud !!!
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Apr 27, 2007 - 02:37pm PT
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Extreme choss climbing!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Apr 27, 2007 - 04:55pm PT
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That's Mono, that's not choss.
This is choss...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Apr 27, 2007 - 04:56pm PT
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Feral choss...
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 27, 2007 - 05:01pm PT
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Anyone that calls Pinns choss climbing should be banned from climbing there. And have their head examined. The rock is fabulous. I have a few of my favorite Pinnacles hand and footholds sitting at home on a shelf with my guidebooks.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 27, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
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Tom,
> Speaking of bolts, how are the old ones I put in on Shake and Bake many years back? Holding up? Replaced?
I believe Jim McConachie has a 1/2" drill bit for replacing them (by enlarging the original holes), but I don't think it has been done yet. I think the 3/8" bolts are holding up pretty well, but they are a bit discolored, so worthy of replacement at some point. Fantastic route, by the way - a full-value Pinnacles testpiece! David Rubine wrote in the history section of his guidebook:
"Shake and Bake was the first - and still one of the most impressive - of the modern free routes. In a stroke of true vision, Tom Higgins and Chris Vandiver launched themselves up the sheer wall of The Balconies with the intent of creating the first free climb on the wall. As if this wasn't enough, their goal was to place all the bolts without resorting to aid of any sort. After three days of strained and nerve-wracking effort, the pair gained the safety of the ledge at the top of the wall. Their audacity, combined with their use of 3/8" bolts, set a superlative example. Be forewarned: Until you are ready to handle 30-foot runouts on sustained 5.9 climbing, steer clear of this one. But when you are ready, you will experience one of the true gems to be found at Pinnacles".
The bolts you placed on the start of Lava Falls have been replaced. Also, Bruce Hildenbrand and I finished replacing the bolts on the Balconies Regular Route last December, where you did the FFA. Several (but not all) of the bolts on Rupert Kammerlander's Resurrection Wall have been replaced.
[OK, Brad, now back to the FA list!!]
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 27, 2007 - 07:04pm PT
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I remember belaying Eric Topel (rip) on the 2nd pitch of
the Balconies Regular. About half way up while I was seconding I
noticed that one of his pieces had gotten loose and had come out;
it was hanging on the rope above.
When I got up to where the piece was hanging on the rope, I noticed
something odd about it. It wasn't a dislodged stopper--it was a
dislodged BOLT! There on the rope hung the bolt, hanger, and draw.
Magnificent.
Long live the Pinns!
PS. Wondrous route Mr. Higgins!
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Karl Aguilar
climber
san francisco, ca
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Apr 28, 2007 - 03:41pm PT
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draw, bolt, and hanger... that's all?
I'd be impressed if there was a nice big block attatched.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Apr 28, 2007 - 07:15pm PT
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Uh, so that might be the most massive thread drift EVER.
Start by talking about the most fun times at a crag and finish with a hyper-detailed discussion of bolts, complete with flame-off?
Or maybe that's some people's idea of a good time at Pinns?
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Karl Aguilar
climber
san francisco, ca
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Apr 28, 2007 - 11:22pm PT
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The bolts are part of what makes pinnacles "pinnacles". The climbing isn't for everyone and some bolts are really bad. The more you climb there, the more you can appreciate the story. I'm not saying that having a bolt pull is a "fun time", but it's a great memory if everyone is ok. The guy did not fall and a piece wiggled out from rope drag. It just happened to be a bolt.
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jax
Sport climber
sonoma county, ca
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Jan 10, 2010 - 02:23am PT
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Cantaloupe death is one of my favorite climbs at Pinnacles. The risky leap of faith start is exciting. When I climbed it last April the bolts seemed fine to me.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jan 10, 2010 - 04:40am PT
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Hmmm, bad bolts huh? Pinns bolts are no different (note I said bolts not hangers - I LOVE the handle...Clint why'd you put a hanger there ): )than any where else old bolts are 1/4 inchers with home made hangers. Climb the stuff with good bolts or go do some work and replace the tired old mank.
kev
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