Discussion Topic |
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 26, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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To one and all:
This kind of sh#t is totally unacceptable!
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Big Piton
Trad climber
Ventura
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May 26, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
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Where is this located?
MMM
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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May 26, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
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Big Piton beat me to it!
"The location please."
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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May 26, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
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Wonder if it's a memorial.
I know there are memorials all over the Sierra, not all with asian characters.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
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The photo was taken from Lambone's Zenyatta Mondatta TR. (I've used it without permission, BTW)
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apogee
climber
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May 26, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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Looks like a memorial to me, too. Anybody know what it says?
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Gene
Social climber
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May 26, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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Names perhaps?
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
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How was it done? Can someone go up there and erase it without causing more damage, or is it already etched in?"
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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May 26, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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A memorial to one of the 2 Japanese parties that froze on El Cap?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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Looks like a date at the bottom: 1999.7.26(July 26, 1999)!!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 26, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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Given the proximity of El Cap to millions of people, I'm kinda surprised the problem isn't worse- look at Stony Point.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 01:22pm PT
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Koreans???
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PhotogEC
climber
In front of my computer
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May 26, 2010 - 01:22pm PT
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It's Korean; a guy who works for me should be able to read it, but he's out sick today. If there's no translation posted by tomorrow, I'll provide an update.
--Eric
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Brian
climber
California
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May 26, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
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As medeusa points out, those are Korean characters.
That sort of graffiti is messed up. If, hopefully, it is the names of the people who did it, we could at least know who did this.
Brian
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hollyclimber
Big Wall climber
Yosemite, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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Quick response is that this is old news...we have seen this before. Of course-horrible. But as far as I know, isolated event.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 26, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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El Cap is not the only stone that fell victim to graffiti.
Oh man, looks like english to me.
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Buju
Big Wall climber
the range of light
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May 26, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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if Tron did indeed carve that on WC, id be careful...it can climb walls "900-1200 times better than a human"
...ahhhh dorky refrence
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jack herer
climber
Veneta, Oregon
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May 26, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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does any one really care that much.... you couldnt even pick that up in one of tom's scope. if you really care then go chop all the bolts on el cap while you are up there, but dont take pins cuz youll scar the rock too.... climbers are so silly, its okay to scar the rock in some aspects, but when someone comes along and does this its unacceptable. take a step back and think about it.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 26, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
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A little stucco colorcoat and it'd be good as new.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 26, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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I thought Tron ledge was pretty funny.
Then again, I understood the language (and Reference).
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apogee
climber
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May 26, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
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Korean, huh? (Perhaps) another example of differing cultural attitudes towards 'wilderness'. Remember the Korean Alpine Club mass group size episode(s) at Tahquitz/Suicide?
Not picking on Koreans, but there are distinct differences in what is considered acceptable or appropriate use of the wilderness from culture to culture. Here in the US, we tend to find such scribing on a natural feature horribly unacceptable (unless it involves carving presidential faces or tunnels), yet in other parts of the world it is commonplace and honorable.
Though unacceptable in my book, I might be able to understand how someone from a different culture, ignorant of what the US cultural norms around wilderness use, might do something like that to honor someone else. (That is, assuming it's a memorial.) I'd really prefer to not see it happen again, however.
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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May 26, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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A Korean friend of mine says it's a sort of "RIP Memorial" with the names of two men.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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May 26, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
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In 500 years, it'll be considered "ancient rock art", and it will be used as an excuse to shut down Z.M.
This is how it starts.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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I think the first Yosemite climber graffiti must be Klemens' inscription at the top of the Towers of Geek, namely "GEEK". He thought it was incredibly funny and shared his tale with everyone for months. It was in 1971 when they did the first of the three routes. It was the lousy route actually comparatively and Mark was kind of disgusted with it.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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May 26, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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Memorial isn't as bad as "Joe loves Susie." I can actually respect a memorial even though I would highly prefer it somewhere else.
AFS
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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For the sake of argument, what kind of character is this?
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
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The route Fred Rasmusson at City of Rocks takes it's name from some really old graffiti at the base of the route. Apparently it was written in axle grease who knows when, a long time ago and by a member of a wagon train.
This brings up an interesting discussion that I've contemplated much. Is a date cutoff simply enough to determine whether something is culturally significant or just garbage?
In Alaska there is a lot of mining garbage (yes it's garbage) that cannot be touched due to its "cultural significance". I can't help but believe there is a difference between something like the Kenicott structures and a mound of trashed steel cable, tin cans and other rubble. Kenicott well deserves to be protected and maybe even preserved. But a pile of mining related trash?
http://pix.alaporte.net/pub/d/19086-1/Abandoned+Kennicott+Buildings+-pp+HeloCam.JPG
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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May 26, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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vs.
vs.
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j-tree
Trad climber
bay area, ca
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May 26, 2010 - 11:21pm PT
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not off but beside topic,
I remember seeing a large graffitied name on the backside of Sugarloaf a month ago (at the high point of pony express before it starts going down the backside) each letter was 1-2 feet in height and was someone's name. I took pictures but ended up deleting them because it just pissed me off. oh well. back on topic
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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May 26, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
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I hate when people people alter the environment in National Parks...
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PhotogEC
climber
In front of my computer
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May 27, 2010 - 03:00pm PT
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My Korean friend indicates that the message in question reads, literally:
Miss
Chae Seung Chul
Kim Hyung Jin
He agreed that it's a memorial to the two people named, but was unsure whether there's any significance to where it was left.
Anyone recognize the names and/or an accident in '99?
--Eric
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72hw
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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May 27, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
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Honestly it could be a climber memorializing parents, lost friends, etc. who may have never set foot on a wall. Where I do not condone the widespread use of such tactics to make your grief or respect known, I understand fully the impulse. Special places to us are special places to others and they may choose such places to work through loss in any number of ways.
Not sure how I feel about this... I guess it comes down to knowing pornography when you see it.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 27, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
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GEEK Tower
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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May 28, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
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Garbage.
Leave it as (or better) than you find it.
Which means no signs -
A worthy goal.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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May 28, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
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A memorial is not graffiti. If anything is sacred this would be it. Gosh darn it, someone died on the mountain and one of their loved one didn't want them forgotten. I don't find that offensive, I find it gut wrenching sad.
AFS
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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May 28, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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Spider Savage: I have to agree with you on the Stone Mountain problem. I used to express that opinion often around here (GA) but there are few people that see it that way.
I guess the only positive thought about Stone Mountain is that represents what not to do significant natural wonders.
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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May 28, 2010 - 10:31pm PT
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People die everyday by the thousands.
If there were one of those roadside memorials for every death we would be wading through the trash. As far as I'm concerned the less crap and plaques the better. Keep it to yourself and don't impose it on what is by many considered pristine.
This is nuts.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 28, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
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I bet it says something about Kim Jong Il killing infidels on it.
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murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
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May 29, 2010 - 12:50am PT
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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May 29, 2010 - 03:51am PT
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This is terrible.
I will now go, like Palin, and go Commando on this, and be effective.
People, you can see the Wizdumb of the Arizona Legislature.
Any time we get foreigners on our soil, we have trouble.
So, we need to be virulent and possibly crazy, but we need to stop those outsiders.
Didn't we fight for our land? And don't we deserve to hold it?
PEOPLE! Those so-called 'people' are scum. And not worthy of our land.
The latest incident, which I hope will be forwarded to either a fag's ex-wife with a blog, or a demented fat slug addicted to oxycotin, is this:
AT NO TIME CAN YOU INVADE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!
(Editor's Note) - please delete any record of Tom's rant. Political politeness issues aside, his view on this issue borders on rampant craziness. The people controlling his writing want everyone to know that everything is going to be OK, and there is no need for alarm. He has been summarily fired, and will never write again.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 29, 2010 - 10:01am PT
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I admit I was a little turned off by the inscription on ZM.
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G-ram
Trad climber
revelstoke
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May 29, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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I thought it was kinda neat, if I was wandering around my home mountains, and was high on a cliff and saw inscribed poetry or a memorial, I would be very excited. I guess that because my mountains ARE wilderness. Yosemite, while wild adventure abounds doesn't seem like wilderness to me. More of an athletic park. If you were several days into the backcountry of the sierras and came across something like this it would seem a beautiful reminder that there are other people out there.
I guess the motivations are pure. It's better to alter the rock out of compassion and longing for a human relationship than pounding bolts somewhere solely for the ego.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 29, 2010 - 03:46pm PT
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Maybe if the Koreans had died on the route or something. Otherwise I don't see how it belongs at the p15 belay...
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icegang
Big Wall climber
Seoul,Korea
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May 31, 2010 - 01:31am PT
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First of all, I would like to apologize for that matter as a Korean climber.
As a person who loves mountains and nature, I am sure that I feel the same way if I find flaw on a valuable wall.
Those are Korean characters and the names of two Korean climbers, who accidently fell and died at “Thaley Sagar” in Pakistan in 1998.
They were the co-founders of “Extreme Rider”, a rock-climbing school in Korea established in 1997 and the pioneers in big wall climbing in Korea.
Now many succeeding rock climbers are working actively all around the world.
For your understanding, I introduce their climbing history shortly.
1994 El-Cap Triple Direct
El-Cap Excalibur
Half Dome Direct Northwest Face
1996 El-Cap Nose(in a Day)
El Cap Lost in America
El Cap Heart Sunkist
1997 El-Cap Aurora(descending by Paragliding)
El-Cap Zodiac(in a day)
Pakistan Trango Tower New Route KOREA FANTASY(Descending by Paragliding)
1998 Canada Bugaboo"Snow Patch Spire"
Pakistan Thaley Sagar---Falling from Snow Field of Summit
After the accident, a person who was their friend and had a plan to climb the El-Cap did it.
I am sure that it was neither taking down a foreign country, nor an arrogant behavior.
They had never done that before even though they had climbed Yosemite several times for 1994 through 1997.
I am not a representative and a spokesman of Korean climbers, but I will do my efforts to ensure that such an act will not happen again.
I sincerely apologize again and understand the situation.
I.C.Kang
A Korean Climber
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tokyo bill
Social climber
tokyo
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May 31, 2010 - 02:22am PT
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Compliments to icegang for a well-written, informative and thoughtful response.
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bmacd
climber
Relic Hominid
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May 31, 2010 - 02:28am PT
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Suprise ending to this thread. Well done Icegang.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 31, 2010 - 09:40am PT
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Sad story I.C., thanks for putting it into context. RIP Korean wallers.
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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May 31, 2010 - 11:31am PT
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Yes, the Ying and the Yang of everything. . .
That candy wrapper is a reminder too - wow someones been here - how romantic.
For me, limiting my/our impact in everyway we can seems reasonable as the numbers of "visitors"continues to increase.
Just like limiting the bolts, firerings etc.
I admit I find the "historic" grease pictographs at City of Rocks a bit amusing but the petroglyphs of the native peoples interesting. It is a dbl standard. But, aren't we now aware that this is defacement? Depends on your perspective. But why not leave a clean slate?
Its true, the notice of prior presence can be interesting and sometimes tells a story.
I find empty landscapes - void of our presence immensely spiritual.
The lack of "attachments", signatures of our culture, allows/prompts a connection to nature. I'm not saying you can't find it amidst the balanced rock sculptures. I find I am more relaxed without the stimulus.
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hooblie
climber
from where the anecdotes roam
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May 31, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
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second what fuzzy said. should be axiomatic by now.
even laying in some turns on a virgin slope causes me a tinge of regret, though that adds incentive to make them "pretty," tucking the steps along the margin or out of frame, hope for blessed snow to cover and fix it. sweep the corn at the right time of day, and the pallet is cleansed by tomorrow. part of why snow feels like play.
the stone though carries a heavier burden, bears the pain of our passage on a different scale, from zero to our kind of forever
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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May 31, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
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Im more worried about what Tom said.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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May 31, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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Given Icegang's comments with the rest of the story I can fully understand why a partner would make such an inscription. Rather auspicious coming on Memorial Day. Losing climbing friends is hard. You want to do something to remember them so I can understand why. I certainly would not condemn their inscription but nor would I condone it. It is what it is. BTW you find such memorials all over the Alps - some right along the routes. Given Mark brought the subject up, ever see the memorial marker along Cooper's Spur on Mt. Hood?
Much better than Bullwinkle masturbated here or Dick screwed Winnie or like the recent fad at IC of chipping plaques. Or the boulders leaving ticks marks on every hold like a 3 year old's connect the dot game.
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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May 31, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
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Hoobie -
I was thinking about beaches without footprints or debris.
Snow - as you said, clean, immaculate. It simplifies the horizon and gives us something without clutter, fences...
"...What have we done to the earth, what have we done to our fair sister..."
Easy to see why others have different opinions. But nothing beats cleanliness IMHO.
Its easy to mess it up.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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May 31, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
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Make memorials on private land or at home, but don't put them on public property and especially in a National Park.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 31, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 31, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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In the end, permanently marking climbs in this fashion is simply equivalent to branding wolverines as if they were being farmed like cattle.
It is misplaced pathos, certainly. Our deaths are, yes, almost always hideous--- unspeakably, unimaginably excrutiating. Right? Don’t you think? It doesn’t get too much worse anywhere.
But then to use this basis---a horrible accident and all the awesome loss and misery we undergo---- to then determinedly make marks in the natural world on surfaces that are somewhere between 10,000 and 6,000,000 million years old---so ancient---and would remain otherwise untouched for another like period, is to absurdly fantasize your supremacy in the cosmos, and that the natural world and all its details are but your vassals at your beckoning. Tiny Mount Rushmores---really?. That our ancients at the very beginning of humankind drew astounding images and talismen on the walls of caves and rocks all over the world for the first time in terrestial history does not mean that today in our crazy galactic life and world we too should make, in mimic, marks that we for a spell, think are as significant but which mean nothing if not today, then in a few years and thus forever. Just more garbage and scars--- more nausea.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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May 31, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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What do the government regulations say?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 31, 2010 - 11:50pm PT
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The National Park Service normally grants permission to those wishing to scatter cremated remains within the borders of Yosemite National Park.
To receive permission, please send a letter to Special Park Uses, National Park Service, PO Box 700-W, El Portal, CA 95318. Include in your letter your name, address, and daytime phone number. Also include the name of the deceased and his/her relationship to you (e.g., sister, husband, mother, friend, etc.).
With a letter of permission, you may scatter cremated remains with the following conditions:
 All such activity must be done out of sight of any public access, such as roads, trails, parking areas, etc.;
All such activity must be at least 100 yards from any watercourse;
Cremains must be spread over an area large enough that no single portion is accumulated in one place.
No markers of any kind may be left to commemorate the event.
(Highlighting added.)
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Buju
Big Wall climber
the range of light
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coz...
Carving memorials in a "sacred" rock is okay but drilling bolts in a "sacred" rock (SFHD...) is not? Isn't it all just resource damage when it comes down to it?
If everyone carved their lost loved one's names in Yosemite's featues, the park would be covered....
Im not being an AZ-hole...im just curious...
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Chief
climber
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copperhead slots, enhanced hook placements, pin scars, bolts; all good.
graffiti bad. Remember the ancient GEEK!
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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This is a good conversation. Thanks for participating!
It is complicated. I vacillate. I agree with Peter - in the big picture it seems rather presumptuous when considering eternity. I’ve shared and understand Scott’s situation, his post to the Koreans is compassionate. It feels coldhearted to restrict such an act.
I understand why we are compelled to leave memorials. It is about our emotions - working through the death of a friend. Is it becoming a popular trend? How does it effect others?
We are blessed with expansive tracts of “protected” land. If we decide to leave it free of signs of our passing (or others) there may be benefits. Our Mountain Culture is still in its infancy. Is it foolish to try and keep the canvas as clean as possible?
Is it an extension of free speech? Sometimes silence is golden. Norman Clyde didn’t return to place a plaque for the Starr family, but much later somebody decided to do so. Plaques, carvings, memorials - can it get out-of-hand? I’m hoping it doesn’t become routine.
The media sells fear, and overtime I can imagine grieving friends responding to a fabricated cultural guilt trip by littering the landscape. How about a Sand Mandala?
If you are going to erode the wilderness then this is trivial compared to summit registers, bear lockers etc. I recognize I’m hyper sensitive, for example, those LED lights that are popping up around campsites in the backcountry drive me crazy!
When the world looms larger we tend to feel smaller – less significant. I think that is healthy. We love having a route to ourselves, experiencing the “drift” of the land without “distractions.
Don’t we also feel vulnerable in the presence of memorials? What’s our emotional threshold? What’s the answer? Lets be discreet and keep the world as natural as possible.
As Cole Porter put it:
Oh, give me land, lots of land under starry skies above, Don't fence me in
Let me ride through the wide open country that I love, Don't fence me in
Let me be by myself in the evenin' breeze
And listen to the murmur of the cottonwood trees
Send me off forever but I ask you please, Don't fence me in
Just turn me loose, let me straddle my old saddle
Underneath the western skies
On my Cayuse, let me wander over yonder
Till I see the mountains rise
I want to ride to the ridge where the west commences
And gaze at the moon till I lose my senses
And I can't look at hovels and I can't stand fences
Don't fence me in
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Stunning post Tom! The principle "to leave no trace" is what we are trying to strive for obviously and which, had it been observed more frequently in our history many things would be better surely. And no question about it, the Korean monument as well as Scott's plaque are really poignant and obviously no big blow to nature; they are both thoroughly well intended. But it would be best if we don't have a whole lot them.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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seems like some innate drive is at work...
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Hey Fattrad you should have them Butt Phucking the North American Continent to really capture the essence of their illegal reign. I'll donate $2 for this cause, tax deductible off course....Maybe you can scribe Halliburton and the oil co.s names in the Black Diorite while you're there for a fee, of course.
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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I think everyone one looks for a clean fresh landscape i.e., one that is free of litter, signs and other traces of humanity when visiting a National Park or any wilderness area. (The one exception may be when one is lost.)
Most people travel to these places to escape the tedium of day to day life and the stains of city life. It is disturbing to believe you have escaped these reminders of our ever increasingly crowded world when stumbling across debris in the back country, trash on a stretch of beach or seeing litter along side a rural highway. Graffiti is another reminder of someone else's presence. To find someone's name or initials scrawled in a remote spot spoils our attempted escape.
To those that leave such markers it seems to be a benign attempt at eternity or a fleeting glimpse from the eyes of a conqueror.
A memorial might perhaps be looked at from another point of view; but I have always thought graveyards and tombstones to be a peculiar part of our vanity as humans.
As far as finding a remote spot that we can venture to and have high expectations of a completely natural environment...
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 20, 2015 - 11:20pm PT
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Bumping this thread to add, I was approached by I.C. Kang at the bridge this spring and he engaged me in a long discussion about the markings on ZM. 5 years after this thread was posted its still on his mind and he is very much concerned about how Korean climbers are perceived in the community.
Well, he already explained why they were put there, so I won't go into that. But I will say he was very adamant that we understand that in the Team Extreme Rider school, new climbers are taught Leave No Trace and clean climbing ethics that are the standard in Yosemite. And that carving anything in the rock is not acceptable. He could not speak for all Koreans obviously but he was speaking for Team Extreme Rider.
I have always had a personal gripe about finding Korean cigarette buts littered on the ground and stuck in cracks on the wall whenever I ended up climbing behind or after them. He said he understands and will continue to insist that their climbers remove all trash from the wall.
I have a lot of respect for I.C. He goes above and beyond trying to facilitate the TER climbers having a safe and successful time in Yosemite. And he's just a nice, funny guy. If you have the chance, say hi and get to know him a little.
Cheers
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