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paintrain
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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Annapurna was climbed in wool
That is kind of funny - probably wool underwear. They did a lot of gear refining and specialization of down clothing for that ascent. They learned a lot from previous Himalayan efforts. Reference - Herzog's book.
Metolius has been for sale for a long time.
Apples to oranges. BD has a lot wider product range and revenue base. It makes it more attractive to an investor than a niche company like Metolius.
More money into R&D
Doubtful. More money into marketing and sales. More money into the higher margin, higher turnover lines (i.e. clothing). Expansion of its market base with the capitol influx. Most companies don't make this move so they can invest more in R and D.
BD has been making products in Asia for awhile - http://207.135.152.14/china/index.php
My .02.
PT
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Euroford
Trad climber
Louisville, CO
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May 11, 2010 - 12:04pm PT
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at first i was shocked by this news. now, perhaps i'm understanding why this could be a very good thing.
i think BD has a very solid model, they make very good, innovative and reliable gear. i buy gear from allot of different companies, but BD's gear has stood the test of time and shown itself to be a very good investment of my money, and i've never perceived of any sort of drop off in quality, quite the opposite really.
i know for example that they recently stopped outsourcing ski manufacturing and began doing it in house. this sort of thing is a huge investment, and i believe its been worth it. the new ski's are nothing short of awesome.
if they want to continue developing their product lines like that, their is no doubt that they'll need some capitol on hand. so now they got some. thats great, lets hope they do something bitchin with it.
i'm not going to get too far into the whole asian manufacturing debate.... but i'm going to go out on a limb here and take a guess that the climbing community isn't very educated about the capabilities relative to this sort of thing. but here's one good example, the new hydroformed aluminum viper ice tools, and carbon fiber cobra's. do you realize that these tool shafts cannot be mass produced in the US? there are only a handful of companies in the entire world capable of making those parts, and they are ALL based in asia. hydroformed aluminum is one very good example of this, but in a whole slew of manufacturing niche's the asians have smartly invested a TON of money into efficient advanced manufacturing that is all but unavailable in the US beyond the prototype stage.
for an interesting insight into asian manufacturing, read back through this blog entry from banshee cycles as it details the development of their "legend" world cup downhill bike.
http://bansheebikes.blogspot.com/search/label/Legend
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 11, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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...but at some point the business model of great stuff manufactured by climbers only goes so far.
Why is that, and where else do they need to go? True, I suppose they could extend the brand into overpriced clothing and standup river paddleboards...
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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Maybe we're looking at this all wrong. Maybe the expansion isn't into recreational users, but in Military Contracts.
Does the US military already use gregory? How about Black Diamond?
The gub'mint is where the money's at.
camo cams = bad ass.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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May 11, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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I'd be curious to see what happens to BD sales when it becomes known (truthfully or not) that BD is associated with Armour and fat Republicans. While the typical consumer can care less about where a product comes from, rich white yuppies can actually pay a few extra $ to a hippy CCH/Metolius.
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reddirt
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
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Does the US military already use gregory? How about Black Diamond?
YES. and it's not just the US military.
edit: not even Patagonia is immune from the money of larger "government" sales. Gov't being military, not just EPA people out in the field.
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lemonviolence
Trad climber
Monrovia, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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The Beginning of the End.
Cheap Products and Dim Lighting is all that is left for BD.
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reddirt
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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Does this vertical merger make BD a larger target to sue in the event of perceived equipment malfunction (or even staged fraud) or just a larger, harder stone from which someone may attempt to draw blood from?
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reddirt
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
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re: military
http://www.getoutdoors.com/goblog/index.php?/archives/214-ArcTeryx,-GoLite,-Camelbak,-North-Face,-Black-Diamond-and-the-Outdoor-Industry-Outfitting-the-US-War-Military-Machine.html
Thursday, December 15. 2005
Arc'Teryx, GoLite, Camelbak, North Face, Black Diamond and the Outdoor Industry: Outfitting the US War & Military Machine
War is good business. There's no denying it. Probably every sector of the U.S. economy is hungrily eyeing the $441.6 billion earmarked for military spending in 2006 - a number that represents an astounding 45% growth in spending since 2001. You'd have to be stupid or perhaps deeply principled e.g. really stupid, to ignore the potential profits a nice fat slice of the war pie can offer your business. No business or industry seems to be immune, not even *sigh, ours.
* Camelbak: Definitely the most open about selling gear to the war machine. They are the Dr. Strangelove of outdoor gear. A whole section of their site, in fact, is devoted to selling gear to military. And they are mentioned in countless articles including this one in USA Today. Not comfortable with this? Try Platypus hydration systems. I couldn't find mention of them selling to the military. But who knows.
* GoLite: Another proud supplier to the US military. Back in 2003 5% of their sales were coming from the military. I'm sure it's even more now. The same USA Today article has this fine quote, "War can be good for smaller companies," says Demetrios Coupounas, co-founder and president of GoLite. Yeah boy! Nothing like killing 30,000 Iraqis and over 2,000 Americans to really drive home some good profits.
* North Face: I don't get it. They're out there saving lives in Pakistan while at the same time they're making a tidy profit selling Met5 (you were wondering who bought them) jackets and other gear to an institution specialized in ending lives. A Time article, Troop Chic, also gushed over the industry for selling to the military. "The North Face recently added a camouflage fly to one of its expedition tents in the hope of making more military sales. In every other way, says Jill Pagliaro, a spokeswoman for North Face, “the design for Alpine athletes and military usage is similar.” I guess when you're driving profits for a huge corporation, you can't let any segment go, including the war segment.
* Black Diamond: This one hurts folks. I hold/held BD to higher standards, despite what Ultraformat has to say. But even they sell to the military according to their own site. Albeit the Austrian military. Which somehow seems even worse.
* Arc'Tryx: Another company quite proud to be selling to the machine. From their site: The Marines also needed about 200,000 units of the pack—called Improved Load Bearing Equipment, or ILBE—over four years. When the bidding dust settled, Arc’teryx had won the contract.
* Outdoor Retailer: This completely floored me this year. Among the seminars on Environmental Sustainability and Green Business Practices you had Doing Business with the U. S. Military at last summer's OR. Am I the only one who sees the absurdity of this? An industry promoting Environmental awareness at the same time it supports an industry that scars, destroys, and pollutes the environment? My head hurts.
The list goes on. Oakley, Johnson Outdoors, Oakley, Rain-Shield, Integral Designs. In fact, even if you wanted to buy gear from manufactures that don't support the war machine, you might be hard pressed to find them. I will spare you my opinion on the matter. It should be evident by now. I'll just remind my 10 readers you have a choice. And I'll remind the industry we also have a choice. The outdoor industry is not in the bomb or the gun making business. Killing, or "defense" as you might call it, are not our core business nor is it necessary for our survival. As my dear friend Albert Einstein once said, “You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.” Perhaps we could focus on the prevention side and let someone else intimately more skilled and knowledgeable work on the preparing.
___
outlets such as MooseJaw, REI all have "gov't sales" handlers.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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If the military is going to buy climbing gear, Black Diamond certainly is right up there in the best category.
Another question to ask of the great forum oracle- doesn't the military have to buy American? So wouldn't this mean that the Salt Lake factory has to stay, despite the new Chinese factory?
This may not be as bad of news as we first suspected.
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reddirt
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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the definition of "buy American" can get kinda fuzzy with supply chains for manufacturing & all.
Is a made-in-South-Carolina BMW or made-in-whatever-unionless-southern-state-with-many-American-parts Toyota buying "foreign"?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 11, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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This could actually be the silent inspiration for it all...
Just a little something that goes well with their Ruscha...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 11, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
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And bottom line, this guy now makes your cams...
bit of a change from this guy...
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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May 11, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
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If they are going to maintain ISO and Six Sigma standards, it shouldn't matter too much who owns the company.
It's true that more money may go to foreign workers and more money to investors, and less to climber employees. And that's not necessarily a good thing.
But I don't know that absolutely equates to a decrease in quality. If anything, I'd say it's more likely that R&D would get cut to save money.
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scuffy b
climber
Where only the cracks are dry
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May 11, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
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But, Joseph, YC has been out of it for more than 20 years, right?
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Oneoff
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
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It amazes me how casually most readers seem to have reacted to this acquisition. Its not just that the industry leading climbing safety equipment manufacturer has been acquired by a war profiteer -- its that this particular arms merchant has a track record of delivering defective safety equipment and has demonstrated extreme callousness towards soldiers' mortality when measured against his bottom line. Are the implications of this too difficult for many climbers to understand or are they merely in permanent thrall to the power of the Black Diamond brand name.
On the first point, the new Executive Chairman's former company paid a $30 million dollar settlement after it was investigated by the Department of Justice and the military for selling defective body armor for use in Iraq and Afghanistan. The body armor procured by the government was crap, our soldiers knew it, and they routinely solicited family members to purchase bulletproof vests at their own (significant) expense and ship them to Iraq so that they would have something more substantial than heavy GI cardboard to protect them from enemy fire.
On the second point, the new Executive Chairman's former company was responsible for the "armoring" of the humvee vehicles which so often proved to be death traps for soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. After being criticized by the military for delays in provisioning vehicles, the company refused a blank check from the Pentagon to license a third party to manufacture and install armor using the approved design, and they used lobbyists and pulled favours to make sure other alternative designs were not approved in its place. The pentagon said "name your price" and they said 'no thank you, we prefer to maintain our status as a monopoly provider, let the soldiers eat cake'
Here is how the New York Times described this exchange:
The Defense Department continues to rely on just one small company in Ohio to armor Humvees. And the company, O'Gara-Hess & Eisenhardt, has waged an aggressive campaign to hold onto its exclusive deal even as soaring rush orders from Iraq have been plagued by delays. The Marine Corps, for example, is still awaiting the 498 armored Humvees it sought last fall, officials told The Times.
In January, when military officials tried to speed production by buying the legal rights to the armor design so they could enlist other venders to help, O'Gara demurred, calling the move a threat to its "current and future competitive position," according to e-mail records obtained from the Army....
Determined to hold onto its exclusive contract, O'Gara began lobbying Capitol Hill. Among those it drew to its side was Brian T. Hart, an outspoken father of a soldier who was killed in October 2003 while riding in a Humvee. Early last year, as a guest on a national radio show, Mr. Hart urged the Pentagon to involve more armor makers. Two weeks later a lobbyist for O'Gara approached him.
"He informed me that the company had more than enough capacity," Mr. Hart says. "There was no need to second-source."
Mr. Hart then redirected his efforts to help the company push Congress into forcing the Pentagon to buy more armored Humvees. With support from both parties, the company has received more than $1 billion in the past 18 months in military armoring contracts....
Meanwhile, the Army did not give up on trying to speed production by involving more armor makers. Brig. Gen. Patrick O'Reilly said several armor companies were eager to be part of a plan to produce armored Humvees entirely on AM General's assembly line.
In January, when it asked O'Gara to name its price for the design rights for the armor, the company balked and suggested instead that the rights be placed in escrow for the Army to grab should the company ever fail to perform.
"Let's try this again," an Army major replied to the company in an e-mail message. "The question concerned the cost, not a request for an opinion."
The Army has dropped the matter for now, General O'Reilly said, adding that he hoped to have other companies making armor by next April.
Asked why the Marine Corps is still waiting for the 498 Humvees it ordered last year, O'Gara acknowledged that it told the Marines it was backed up with Army orders, and has only begun filling the Marines' request this month.
All of this is terrible, terrible news for climbers. What we lose is not merely any sense of confidence in one of the largest equipment manufacturers, we lose an important quality bar that every other manufacturer worked to measure up to and a major source of innovation in our sport. Outside of soft goods, this company is now dead. You may buy their products at your peril and if you're lucky they will function well, but if it happens to be the quarter that they need to stuff the channel and flip the company to a new owners, well, like american troops, you may end up a casualty of their greed....
I imagine the R&D folks and sponsored athletes are taking it very well. What could make them happier than making new ascents and developing new tools to conquer mountains as the paid servants of a princely arms merchant, a procurer of death.
[Edited for type-o]
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
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We shall see - if quality suffers and jobs are shipped overseas.
That would seem to be a possibility.
I'm sure he's a typical rich guy too- hates the government in every way except as his biggest customer, but in the end it's actions that matter not belief or words.
If quality suffers, climbers laid off, and R and D ditched to increase the bottom line, than we'll know.
That being said, if I had money, I might buy a new set of camalots before we find out one way or the other.
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Missoula
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May 12, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
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I think this is still front page news.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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May 12, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Good news for other climbing companies. It's a safe bet Metcalf will be gone in 3 years (the standard length of contracts in these cases). But there will likely be a lot of management turnover prior to that and it will accelerate after he leaves. BD gear will still be okay for another couple years. Then the financial thumbscrews will start to turn for higher profits. First to go will be the niche categories that lose money (aid climbing, telemark, Bibler). The Gregory brand will go away in 4 years (a la Dana being swallowed by Marmot). Then of course the inevitable expansion of lifestyle clothing, sunglasses, and watches with high margins. The company will be sold off, likely in pieces, within 5 - 7 years. All hardgoods will be discontinued in about a decade because there isn't enough profit and the AT ski fad will have run its course.
Metolius has been for sale for years with no takers. Likely someone will now purchase them and Trango, perhaps what's left of CCH, and pick up more market share--smart move. Petzl will keep expanding and acquire a few more brands before being bought by a mega-brand (Amer Sports perhaps). Mammut has the power of it's huge parent company to steamroll along. Meanwhile CAMP is still owned and operated by the 4th generation and appears to be reinventing itself as a high-end brand.
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Mazzystr
Gym climber
Homeless...
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May 12, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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I'm glad I have triples of C4's up to #6.
I'll never buy another BD product again.
/Chris C
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