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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 13, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
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Thanks for posting, Andrew.
Expletives won't do us any good, reasoned responses will. So if you haven't already, submit your response soon.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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May 13, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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Take 5 minutes and send in an objection to the proposed plan.
It is easy and each individual response has an impact and counts.
Complacency is our enemy.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 13, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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May I ask a question, Chief? Have you ever been to Christmas Tree Pass?
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jstan
climber
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May 13, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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Over the years a number of people have said that climbers have no more right to use public lands as they please than Weyerhaeuser has unilaterally to come in and clear cut the Valley. We had a chance to define a paradigm centered on cooperation. It would appear that chance is now gone and we will have much more of what you see in this and other threads.
We have made an exceedingly foolish trade.
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jstan
climber
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May 13, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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BBA:
What we all have been running into is behavior that causes potential friends to become determined opposition.
I have even run into, "People who think their opinion matters."
We are taxpayers. Write to the NPS and the FS expressing your opinion AS A CLIMBER. Opinion within the climbing community is split. The duly constituted authorities need to know that.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 14, 2010 - 01:29am PT
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BTW: Yes I have. Several times as I recall on my many RT's to Flagstaff and down to Cochise, back in the early to mid 90's. When I played there, the bolts were 1/4ers w/Leeper Hgrs as I recall and were damn few and far between. Real Slab Climbs and just the way I like em. Reminded me a lot of Herb's, Scott's and Greg's routes on Owens Ridge as well as the few routes that were established on Entrance and other Domes in Cochise.
And when you passed through the entrance station did you stop off at the visitor center to check if you were up to date on the regulations?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 14, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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Thanks for the response, Chief, and not answering the question. And thanks for putting words in my mouth. When you get to the Pass and get to know it, perhaps then you can speak intelligently of the situation.
Good day.
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andrewsolow
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
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Dick Richardson and I personally placed close to 200 bolts in Christmas Tree Pass before 1980. And, a lot of other people placed bolts at CTP long before it was ever designated as a Wilderness Area. All of the original bolts were placed by hand on the lead.
So, if the Park Ranger is claiming that there were only 70 or 80 bolts in place at CTP until last year, he is misinformed.
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andrewsolow
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
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I think we all agree that we don't want thousands of bolts thoughtlessly installed with power drills. But, I don't believe that has occurred at Christmas Tree Pass. And, I hope that everyone including Park Rangers supports replacement of old, rusty 1/4" bolts which is ongoing at Christmas Tree Pass.
Several comments deleted. I have since learned that they were false.
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Slice
Boulder climber
Valley
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May 16, 2010 - 01:00am PT
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Hey Andrewsolow and Gary, is The Chief correct in posting that you guys and your climbing buddies are using power drills and are Rap Bolting in the Wilderness? One more question, if you guys put in over 200 bolts before 1980, and a lot more have been put in since then, then how many of these gudam bolts actually are there in CTP? Looks to me like there's a shitload of bolts already established there. Good reading to say the least.
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andrewsolow
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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The LEO added that had folks come in to their office and generate some plans as to the need for rebolting and to establish some standards/protocols from which new routes/bolts can be added in this area, this whole deal could have been avoided.
I tried talking to the LEO nearly a year before LMNRA published it's bolt chopping plan. The only thing I got from the LEO at that time was ATTITUDE, the claim that the air space for ten miles around Spirit Mountain is sacred, and the admonition that human beings aren't supposed to be using the area for recreation.
The LEO didn't even know where 10% of the bolts at CTP were until a climber who lives in Bullhead City, AZ took him on a tour of CTP about a week ago and pointed out some of the primary rock formations and routes.
The only reason the LEO is pretending that no climber ever tried to speak with him about CTP climbing issues until recently is because his bolt chopping plan is predicated on the lie that nobody ever climbs at CTP; and the LEO is trying to deflect attention from the large number of objections that LMNRA has already received to their CTP bolt chopping plan.
FYI: the primary CTP rock climbing area covers about 10 square miles and includes more than 30 different crags and 80 routes, several of which are 3 to 5 pitches in length. A new guide book will be published shortly.
Take 5 minutes and send in an objection to the proposed plan.
It is easy and each individual response has an impact and counts.
Complacency is our enemy.
Lake Mead NRA: LAKE Draft Wilderness Management Plan
OFFICIAL COMMENT LINK
http://parkplanning.nps.gov/commentForm.cfm?parkID=317&projectID=16820&documentId=33282
Andrew Solow, CPI #s: 15321 & 24831
Christmas Tree Pass Resident
1977, 1978 and 1979
2-3 months each year
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Slice
Boulder climber
Valley
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May 16, 2010 - 01:21am PT
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Andrewsolow, can you answer my questions I asked in my prior post please. Also, is the LEO a local Native American? Isn't Spirit Mountain and that entire Christmas Tree Pass spot some kind of local Native America spiritual location or something with all them Petroglyphs located all over? If it is, I can see why the LEO, if he is Native American would have a bone to pick with you guys.
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andrewsolow
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2010 - 01:39am PT
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Far as I know, the LEO or "local environmental officer"? is a 50ish white guy who has grown children and has been living in southern Nevada for many years.
Spirit Mountain, located in the Spirit Mountain Wilderness on the north side of Christmas Tree Pass road is listed on the National Register of Historic Places.
The Grape Vine Canyon Petroglyphs site is located in the Bridge Canyon Wilderness Area on the south side of CTP Road. The petroglyphs site is also listed on the National Register. The petroglyphs are concentrated in the lower part of Grapevine Canyon.
Most of the 30+ rock formations that have been climbed to date are located at least one mile away from either the Grape Vine Canyon petroglyph site or Spirit Mountain. There is a route location map in the new CTP Rock Climbing Guide. But, the guide hasn't been published yet.
The U.S. National Wilderness Preservation System Map (Wilderness.net link below) has great high resolution images of the CTP area. Just zoom in and out and pan around and you will be able to see all of the major rock formations.
Spirit Mountain & Bridge Canyon Wilderness Maps
http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&latitude=35.2260136374&longitude=-114.701843776&zoom=13
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andrewsolow
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2010 - 02:39am PT
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Andrewsolow, can you answer my questions I asked in my prior post. There are a lot of bolts at CTP because it is a large area with a lot of separate rock formations.
If CTP was located closer to a population center like Las Vegas, there would be a lot more routes and a lot more bolts.
Almost all of the bolts at CTP were placed on the lead, not on rappel. There is one small crag about 60' high that has several routes on it that were allegedly rapp bolted, but not by me. I don't climb anymore.
Regarding $400.00 battery operated roto hammers, many people own one. Probably appropriate when used for replacing bolts, but illegal to use in a Wilderness Area.
Hopefully, one of the things that will come out of this discussion are regulations or a permit system that allows for powered replacement of old bolts and hand installation of new bolts in Wilderness Areas. If the fine is big enough and the Park Rangers enforce the law, that should stop people from rapp bolting all over the place.
Only problem is, it's too much work for the Park Rangers to monitor and enforce. Easier to just chop all of the bolts.
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apogee
climber
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May 16, 2010 - 02:45am PT
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"Take 5 minutes and send in an objection to the proposed plan.
It is easy and each individual response has an impact and counts.
Complacency is our enemy."
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"Complacency is our enemy."
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 16, 2010 - 03:10am PT
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The Chief would be on your side in an instant Andrew if he knew for a fact that one or more LEOs were power tripping and not doing their job properly. Managers can be unduly influenced by the opinion of a single manager or LEO. We're all climbers, and his opinions are formed from his experiences.
You have to know that The Chief frequents some areas that range from very overbolted (Clark Canyon) to what-were-they-smoking-and-how-could-they-possibly-afford-that-many-bolts-obscenely overbolted (Alabama Hills). And he has seen some pretty lame behavior on the part of climbers and good behavior on the part of some very tolerant land managers.
But accusing people of rap bolting with power drills with no evidence is pretty lame. Counting bolts is pretty lame if you don't know the area (start counting individual bolts in a Christmas Tree Pass size chunk of your favorite well known area - take Josh or Yosemite or Red Rocks for instance...) If you do some bolt counts on 1970s summers in Tuolumne, 100 bolts is no problem with a hand drill - well before a power drill was ever invented. I'd bet that Clevenger pushed 100 (or more) in a single summer.
Chief, do you want to give the benefit of the doubt to the LEOs when you found out that the LEO was completely wrong on one of his key objections? He told you that there were no more than 65-80 known bolts up to Spring 2009, yet Andrew personally placed around 200 bolts before 1980? Even if we were to assume that not a single bolt was placed 1980-2009, then still the LEO had his facts wrong by a factor of 3.
Chief, what happens if a ban at CTP seems like a swell model to other land managers, bolt bans and removals start at more crags - starting of course with the places that "no one cares about" - and in another 5 years, you are not even allowed to place anchor bolts on a new trad route on the Ruby Wall?
Climbers are definitely overbolting in places, but everyone should write in and protest blanket bans, let alone managers proposing to chop bolts for no good reason!
Complacency is the enemy...everyone write!
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andrewsolow
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2010 - 05:11am PT
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Thanks Greg.
Chief is right about climbers who are way too quick to drill and do not have a sense of style and ethics that prevents them from drilling on rappel.
But, Chief is wrong about these particular bureauocrats. However, these land managers can be reasoned with, particularly if we send them a couple of thousand Objection letters.
Also helpful, the Access Fund has weighed in as the 'Consulting Party' on the Lake Mead draft Plan. See: http://www.accessfund.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5000939&ct=8395599
The Park Service is NOT the enemy. And, neither is this particular land manager.
But, the Park Service works for the people, not the other way around like Chief was indoctrinated by the US Navy.
The biggest problem I see for the Park Service and the land managers is the difficulty of managing an area as large and remote as Christmas Tree Pass.
The Park Service & the BLM are streatched so thin in the Lake Mead NRA that they have trouble just driving up and down Christmas Tree Pass Road twice a day. They don't even have enough Park Rangers to prevent vandals from shooting paint balls at the 1,500 year old petroglyphs in Grapevine Canyon.
Suppose they actually had to have someone spend 7 days a week 12 hours a day at least six months a year patroling the Christmas Tree Pass climbing area on foot? There are no trails and it is slow going even for young people in excellent physical condition.
Really controlling what goes on in a place the size of Christmas Tree Pass means using drone aircraft with cameras, a capability the Park Service doesn't have.
Hopefully sanity will prevail because some sort of cooperative partnership is the only choice that makes any sense at CTP.
The only way that the Park Service and the BLM could completely eliminate human impact from this area would be to close Christmas Tree Pass Road between Grapevine Canyon and S/R 95. Hopefully, it won't come to that.
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Wack
climber
Dazevue
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May 16, 2010 - 08:22am PT
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"The Park Service & the BLM are streatched so thin in the Lake Mead NRA that they have trouble just driving up and down Christmas Tree Pass Road twice a day. They don't even have enough Park Rangers to prevent vandals from shooting paint balls at the 1,500 year old petroglyphs in Grapevine Canyon."
The Park Service needs to prioritize how they allocate their resources. Instead or worrying about some bolts that only climbers see they should be busting the vandals with PB guns.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 16, 2010 - 11:17am PT
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Slice: Hey Andrewsolow and Gary, is The Chief correct in posting that you guys and your climbing buddies are using power drills and are Rap Bolting in the Wilderness?
Slice, The Chief is completely uninformed as to the situation at Christmas Tree Pass.
Yes, a power drill has been used at Christmas Tree Pass in an ongoing bolt replacement project. We've been replacing the old 1/4"ers that Andrew Solo, Dick Richardson, Lynn Robison, Joe Hancock and others put in on lead with hand drills. If Chief had ever actually climbed there he would recognize instantly that this area is not overbolted and the routes were placed in good style.
A power drill has been used, though not always, in this replacement project.
Communication is a two way street, and it has failed in both directions at the Pass.
There are no NPS facilities at the Pass. There is no visitor center, no entrance station, no rangers. There are a few signs, none of which state that you are entering a wilderness area.
We made the honest mistake of not getting an up to date map of an area that we know like the backs of our hands. We should have driven to a ranger station at some point just to see what's going on in the area, for sure. With the road and microwave facility adjacent to Spirit Mountain, it truly never occured to us that it was a wilderness area. It was just the Pass as it had always been.
Had we known of the wilderness designation a power drill would not have been used. I am pissed at myself.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 16, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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The maps that Andrew posted in fact state where the different WA are, plain as day, Gary.
And as you well know, Chief, there are NPS maps that do not show any wilderness area.
Communication is a two way street.
Thank you for your help in this situation.
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