Hand Drill Recommendation

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Messages 1 - 84 of total 84 in this topic

Dutch

Trad climber

pdx

Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 21, 2010 - 07:28pm PT

I'm looking to purchase a hand drill. Anybody used the Fixe drill? Any recommendations? Brands to avoid?

Thanks

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

sorry, just posting out loud.

Apr 21, 2010 - 07:38pm PT

rocpec is light and short and takes an SDS bit with the collette, but the same collette can pinch. use climbing tape to prevent the pinch.

what you really need is a shorty 3/8" bit for any drill that is longer, assuming stance or hook drilling.

Greg Barnes

climber

Apr 21, 2010 - 08:19pm PT

The Rocpec is light and quick to change bits, overall great except for people with big hands - and except for the fact that it pinches your hand unless you tape it (which then makes changing drill bits slower). The Fixe is big, beefy, and great for big hands - but it's probably 3 times the weight of the Petzl (don't know the exact weight but it is very heavy). The Pika is still available some places (Mountain Tools has it), and it's also good for bigger hands, but it was infamous for the tightening screws always loosening up.

Minerals

Social climber

The Deli

Apr 21, 2010 - 08:46pm PT

A Hurricane, if you can find one.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1024821

According to an Ebay seller, the Fixe drill weighs 400 grams. Mountain Gear lists the Petzl Rocpec at 198 grams.

Fixe hand drill:
http://www.fixeusa.com/rock_drills_hand.htm

Greg, have you seen one of the Fixe drills yet? According to the Fixe website, the SDS bit is secured by two allen screws. I wonder if the drill will have the same problem that the Pika drill has. But 46 bucks seems like a deal for a new hand drill.

Slakkey

Big Wall climber

From Back to Big Wall Baby

Apr 21, 2010 - 09:12pm PT

hurricane for sure if you can find one or get someone to part with theirs. However Rocpec more than likely your best option. I too noticed the way the bit is secured on the Fixe Drill.

Greg Barnes

climber

Apr 21, 2010 - 09:19pm PT

We got one for a rebolter who wanted one - so I just saw it for a short bit before sending it out. It sure seemed more than twice the weight of the Petzl, but it was very well built - heavy duty and beefy, looked like you could batter it to death with no problem. And it looks like you could miss the head and not smash your hand - a really bomber hand protector.

I have no idea on the screws loosening with use.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber

SoCal

Apr 21, 2010 - 10:30pm PT

Love my Rawl. Fortunately I have two. I don't know where to get them anymore.

Watch out for SDS holders that loosen up and the bit falls out when you're hammering.

Lissiehoya

climber

Saint Louis, MO

Apr 21, 2010 - 10:32pm PT

Ask Dirka:

http://www.supertopo.com/tr/JTree-New-Years-09-10-TR-lots-of-photos-AND-videos/t10617n.html

See also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6edAM51yFo

dustonian

climber

RRG

Apr 21, 2010 - 10:32pm PT

Do NOT buy the Fixe drill... major POS and super heavy too. To change a bit is major operation involving an allan key and everything... retarded!!

Greg Barnes

climber

Apr 21, 2010 - 10:57pm PT

That's the same as the Pika.

The Hurricane requires 2 wrenches, you'd probably think that it was retarded as well.

And those are easy compared to the old drift pins...

Minerals

Social climber

The Deli

Apr 21, 2010 - 11:25pm PT

Thanks Greg and Dustonian.

For $46, it seems like the Fixe drill would be a good non-lead/loaner practice drill that is worthy of taking some abuse. It certainly is no Hurricane, but might be a good addition/back-up for those who already have a solid bolt kit setup or for those that don’t want to do a lot of bolting. You just have to buy some Loctite with the money that you saved.

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Apr 22, 2010 - 03:55am PT

Petzl for lead bolts, fast and light. I put around a hundred bolts on it before it broke.

Just bought a hurricane, best workmanship climbing will ever see in the way of drills. Option of different style bits is a plus.

Picked up a Pika, placed 1 bolt. Immediately retired it. Great feel but man, Big design flaw in the set screws.

Fixe looks like a great rebolt drill, as long as were not talking about set screws again.

Mucci

rick d

climber

ol pueblo, az

Apr 22, 2010 - 10:10am PT

greg b-

...unless you have Leeper drift pins! Ed sold me 10 in 1989 which I have given out all but 3 which are still in use. Unlike the other pins, I have knocked out a bit 100's of times w/o deforming the drift. Ed Leeper, you are a genius!

I have 3 #14 handles, 2 in use (one is reallllly short, and the third w/ rubber grip is unused.

As I found and Ed Leeper confirmed, some of the Rawls handles were not made correctly and bits would not be able to be driven out. When Leeper sold drill kits he had 10% waste because the handles he bought from Rawl were out of spec.

-----

For modern units, if there were only a short 3/8" SDS bit I would be happier. I have found that the 3/8" straight flute 5.10 steel bits (when they don't break) can drill 30% faster in sandstone than any carbide tip with a cleaner hole and are easier to modify to baby angle placements.

Dutch

Trad climber

pdx

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2010 - 10:54am PT

Thanks for all the good info. I am definitely leaning towards the Rocpec. I read a review whose author was concerned about the durability. I sounds like its not an issue though. Right? Has anyone beat one to death?

Thanks

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Apr 22, 2010 - 01:57pm PT

Where can get the bits for the #14 handles? Link please?

thanks

ps, I have a bit stuck in a Rawl handle right now, though it was my fault. Any ideas how to get it out? The drift pin won't touch it.

Tork

climber

Yosemite

Apr 22, 2010 - 02:54pm PT

I guess Mucci wasn't to bummed when his Petzl drill broke on me. I'm just glad it wasn't on the previous pitch. Eh Mucci?

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Apr 22, 2010 - 03:37pm PT

^^^HA!

Man, would have been a nightmare! Though you could have held that stance overnight.

KNOTT!

That petzl drill, after the collet explodes, turns out to be a better drill.

A little duct tape to hold the bit in, and it works way better for the serious carving.

mucci

EdBannister

Mountain climber

Apr 22, 2010 - 04:02pm PT

Bosch Bulldog

fits in one hand,

about two more holes per battery with Hilti bits.

edit: i laugh as i post , but ho man i can hear the flames a comin.

truth is, I'd rather fall on or belay from a 1/2 inch by 3 3/4ths
stainless steel bolt, than from a 5/16ths rawl whacked in by hand.

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Apr 22, 2010 - 04:17pm PT

ED- Blatant Trolling! :)

Then you wouldn't have the pleasure of drilling a 2" hole over a period of 1.5 hours, cheating death every second.

Mucci

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber

San Francisco, Ca

Apr 22, 2010 - 04:57pm PT

Rolling with the rawl..

Greg Barnes

climber

Apr 22, 2010 - 05:23pm PT

Sounds like Tork and mucci broke one. I "broke" my main one, which was from when they first came out. I noticed that the spring was beginning to pop out of the collet head - after 400 bolts or so in granite (and maybe 50 in sandstone). Still worked fine, it just looked like it was about to break, so sent it back to Petzl for them to check out. Never had any problems with other Rocpecs, and that one was getting really beat up (mushroomed head, etc).

The Hurricanes are nice...but it's also really nice to be able to switch bits super easily on lead with the Rocpec.

Short 3/8" SDS bits would be very nice - if anyone ever finds any, post up about them!

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Apr 22, 2010 - 05:33pm PT

Used to be able to get 10mm bits from Hilti that were short. Four inches or so. Wicked spendy. REI used to sell them, got some on closeout a few years ago. Use them a few times and they'd probably work ok for 3/8" powerbolts...(wear that diamter down a tad).

I've made short bits for the Rocpec by just cutting off the carbide tip and down the shaft a ways, then sharpening the remaining nub. Good for really soft sandstone, for a "just in case" type emergency bolt kit. Works ok. Wouldn't work at all for harder rock, methinks.

Snugged into the drill holder through the side of the Petzl handle, a 4" bit and drill is a really small package.

Greg Barnes

climber

Apr 22, 2010 - 05:40pm PT

Yeah Brian, I know that Hilti deal - it actually works fine for 5-piece (Power-bolts) if you drill good holes, since they are designed for 3/8" or 10mm. Most bolts don't have such a wide tolerance (it's even printed on the side of the sleeve - 3/8" and 10mm both).

And we had a few short 10mm SDS bits from Europe years ago, but they were junk - the carbide tips shattered on the first bolt or two. Think I got them from Tom who got them from Valerio so maybe they were Italian made? Still have one unused one in the oddities pile...

Another advantage of the Hurricane and HSS bits, you can make them nice and short (or they will wear down to nice and short...).

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Apr 22, 2010 - 05:45pm PT

i was in the crawlspace of my father's house a few years back.
we were installing rigid insullation under the main floor.
my brother and dad and i were each holding a corner of the sheet,
and god musta been holding the lonely corner..
we're grunting and shoving as norwegians do well, but the fuker won't seat!
it's heavy and no one, not even god, wants to set down this thing...

so i start bashing it into place with my forehead. my will has a go at the this beast, coeficient of static friction be afraid!

then my brother and father follow suit.

it seats, and we've all fiberglass bits in our eyes so finally us stubborn fukers can cry!

moral here is don't use your head on the dumb side of your hand drill?

seeing as how yer dutch.

EdBannister

Mountain climber

Apr 22, 2010 - 05:46pm PT

dave gratten and sons, Irwindale CA

your price depends on your volume, and if you can get an account with your own resale number. they have t nuts too, boxes of 100 only, don't go here thinking to pick up just a few, i think they have a 100 dollar mimimum,

edit, but if you want to buy stainless 1/2 x 3 1/2 for the bomb belay stance in granite, or, if you are sick like me 1/2 by 6" for sandstone,
you can get them here.

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Apr 22, 2010 - 06:05pm PT

I want to think I've seen Bosch 10mm by 110mm SDS bits out there. Usually UK or Europe.

Wonder if a Bosch dealer could order them in?

Hmmm...be nice to have some inexpensive shorties...

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Apr 22, 2010 - 06:14pm PT

I have a bit that came with the pika drill, it is a 1/4 x4" sds bit.

It is exactly the size we are all looking for in a 3/8ths.

My thought is if they produce a 1/4 inch SDS that is short, They must make a 3/8ths in the same size?

Not that far of a stretch in my mind. I have been to the depths of the web, revealing nothing but I will find those shorties before I die!

I have no idea what brand the bit that comes with the pika drill is, but if anyone knows please post up.

Mucci

Greg Barnes

climber

Apr 22, 2010 - 06:33pm PT

1/4" x 4" SDS is a standard size - Powers makes them for instance. No 3/8" x 4"...

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Apr 22, 2010 - 06:42pm PT

DAMNIT GREG!!!!!

Abandoning the search immediately.

Minerals

Social climber

The Deli

Apr 22, 2010 - 06:48pm PT

Mucci, you have a Hurricane now. Why do you need dull shorties? Just put a sharp shorty in the thing and call it good.

Greg Barnes

climber

Apr 22, 2010 - 06:51pm PT

Don't abandon the search!!!! I just pointed out that 1/4" x 4" is common - eg http://www.powers.com/product_0346.html

Keep searching...and tell us when you find some!

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Apr 22, 2010 - 07:25pm PT

Ok, Ok......

A little hasty but I had not seen the powers website, thus proving I never made it to the deep end of the web!

Minerals- I took all of your info (and others) and am settin up the HSS rack for the hurricane!

Never drilled a hole so fast in my life...

Makes the effort with carbide seem like a 3 hour jerkfest.

Some great info in this and the stance drilling thread.

Thanks for all of the info all!

Mucci

Minerals

Social climber

The Deli

Apr 22, 2010 - 11:36pm PT

Cool, Mucci! Glad that is working out for you so far. I’m curious to hear more as you get more use out of your Hurricane. It makes me psyched when I hear that someone gives the HSS bit system a chance and then “sees the light.”

One other thing to mention about 25/64” HSS (High-Speed Steel) drill bits…

25/64” is 1/64” larger in diameter than 3/8” (obviously). Many of the readily available HSS bits (Home Depot, etc.) are not a constant diameter. Drill bits larger than 3/8” are stepped-down to 3/8” at the bottom of the shank so that the bit will fit into a standard 3/8” drill chuck. The problem with these stepped-down bits is that the collet in the Hurricane is not in full contact with the bit – it only grips the larger portion (25/64”) of the drill bit. Depending on the drill bit manufacturer and the length of the step-down, the collet with have more or less contact with the drill bit. Although I have not had any problems yet with these stepped-down bits, it seems that cranking the collet onto an uneven shank will accelerate collet wear and tear and it might eventually break. But so far, so good.

You can look for constant diameter 25/64” bits with a little searching – I recommend these bits over the stepped-down bits if you can find them.

Try a variety of different bit manufacturers (if you can find a variety) to see which ones are more durable/less likely to break and try to find the USA-made bits or those of equivalent quality. I’ve got some “Made in China” bits that don’t seem to be too bad. If you want to set yourself up with a bunch of bits, I’d go with a machine tool supply company, for quality, price, and availability. Made in USA!!!

Dutch

Trad climber

pdx

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2010 - 01:46pm PT

One more question. Where do you guys recommend getting 3/8" and 1/2" bits? Any particular brands?? What is the deal with Petzl 10 and 12mm bits costing almost $50ea???? Ouch!

Greg Barnes

climber

Apr 23, 2010 - 01:56pm PT

SDS bits are sold in a lot of hardware stores - if you only need a couple, just make sure they are made in Germany and you should be fine.

If you need 12mm bits (for Fixe Triplex, Petzl Long-lifes, etc), get the bits from FixeUSA, they aren't cheap but they are cheaper.

Tim Camuti

Trad climber

Feb 27, 2012 - 11:42pm PT

Long time dead thread, but I found this mention of a shorty (4") SDS drill bit by Bosch

Carbide Tipped SDS Shank Drill Bits, 3 8"x4" SDS
3/8x4 sds plus drill bit Carbide-tipped drill bit head is harder and more resistant to extreme loads 4-flute design for fast dust removal For use in drills requiring SDS-plus shanks 3/8? x 4? x 6?

Bosch #HC2061 3/8x4 SDS Hammer Bit

Does this look like everyone's holy grail, or is this incorrect?

cragnshag

Social climber

san joser

Feb 28, 2012 - 12:31am PT

That's a 6" bit.

4" is the "useable" portion- i.e. you can drill a 4" deep hole with it.

6" is the shortest length made for 3/8" SDS. There's just not enough construction demand for 3/8" that short.

If you want short, go with HSS.

Banquo has a cool homemade shorty HSS bit holder. As short as I've ever seen out there. Maybe he'll post a pic

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Feb 28, 2012 - 02:37am PT

Minerals,

what's the reasoning behind using 25/64" HSS bits instead of 3/8" HSS bits. Am I missing something here?

mctwisted

Trad climber

e.p.

Feb 28, 2012 - 02:25pm PT

bhilden
a 3/8" bit hss bit makes a hole that is typically to tight for a 3/8" expansion bolt, you have to beat them so hard they become damaged in order to get it in the hole. a 3/8" sds bit is actually measuring, with a micrometer, at .395. the hss 25/64" bit is .39 (milwaukie), and a 3/8" hss is down to .375 (to small)
so in other words while the bolt is called 3/8" the expansion part requires a larger hole. a five piece powers cone is .415, and a 3/8" stainless wedge bolt sleeve (where the dimples are) is even bigger than that, depending on the brand
the milwaulkie brand 25/64 are good and available at home depot or amazon, in packs of 6
if your drilling out a 1/4" hole for some reason like fixing an old anchor use the sds as they dont bind as much as hss
p.s. i learned all this stuff from minerals

Minerals

Social climber

The Deli

Feb 28, 2012 - 02:29pm PT

Jeeeeeeeze, McD…. Looks like I didn’t need to just type this afterall……….. :)

“what's the reasoning behind using 25/64" HSS bits instead of 3/8" HSS bits.”

A hole drilled in granite with a 3/8” HSS bit is too tight for 5-piece and wedge bolts and the bolts will require excessive hammering just to seat them into the hole. This excessive hammering is not good for the bolts and may cause the bolts to deform. You can tell when someone has placed a 5-piece bolt into a hole that is too tight because the hex head is beat up and it doesn’t look pretty.

The carbide tip on a 3/8” SDS bit is actually a little bigger than 3/8”. I don’t have one handy to mic, but I believe Brian in SLC has posted the numbers before, and others might be able to chime in on this.

I’m not sure about softer rock types, but a diameter of 25/64” is necessary when drilling with HSS bits in solid granite (i.e. Yosemite). The same is true when placing 1/4” buttonheads – the buttonhead won’t go into a hole drilled with a 1/4” HSS bit without significantly cratering the rock and bending the bolt. 17/64” HSS bits should be used when placing 1/4” buttonheads in solid granite.

Let’s see the Banquo drill holder!!!

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Feb 28, 2012 - 02:43pm PT

Thanks guys! I am guessing that you can drill faster with a HSS bit compared to a SDS bit because you can put a really sharp edge on the HSS bits.

mctwisted

Trad climber

e.p.

Feb 28, 2012 - 02:46pm PT

bryan too funny, i should have took a photo of that holder john had when i had the chance. super small and perfect for your stance drilling, i think the bit is a press fit, or temp. fit and looks sorta like those old 5.10 bits that had no flutes but a flat on both sides to make an easy chisel on the end. i'll email john and see if he will post a pic

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Feb 28, 2012 - 03:01pm PT

How many holes are you guys getting per bit before sharpening?

Irwin-25/64ths got me 2 in Bullet hard granite, then needed to sharpen.

mctwisted

Trad climber

e.p.

Feb 28, 2012 - 03:17pm PT

i'm usually just fixing anchors, and usually widening a 1/4" hole with sds, and then change to hss to make it deeper once ive gotten to the bottom of the 1/4" hole which is totally worth the time spent in changing the bit. so while i try to use the bit for just one hole, sometimes i'll go for two, and have even done three in granite without sharpening. sure is nice to have a fresh bit in there, makes all the difference, as i'm sure you know. takes out small chunks instead of making powder like sds
with the hurricane its quite a bit easier to change bits than my old rawl #20 holder, which was more difficult to do changes

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Feb 28, 2012 - 05:49pm PT

I don't pay more than $20 for a holder, screenshot taken today:

Nice little 3/8" by 2-1/2" A-Taper drills can be had. I get them for less than $10.:
http://www.bamanufacturing.com/pa_pb_series.html

When you buy an A-taper holder, buy the ones with a round wedge for diving out the bit, the flat wedges don't work as well and get jammed.

Don't buy this kind:

Saw it off to shorten and lighten it. Use a bicycle grip or old inner tube to make a handle.

Relton in Arcadia California has genuine made in the USA holders and drill bits.:
http://www.relton.com

When I am home, I can measure the length, weigh it and photo it.

cragnshag

Social climber

san joser

Feb 28, 2012 - 09:00pm PT

Maybe sell these drills on the taco?

Just 3 easy payments of $19.95 + 9.95 Shipping and Handling
Buy now and receive a set of Brass Balls at no charge.

Brass Balls guaranteed to provide that extra courage you need to make it to the next stance!

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Feb 29, 2012 - 10:00am PT

Here's the iron spud. 8 inches long with the drill installed. The drills are made by Brinker Brown and are 4-1/2" overall with 2" useable. It is a bit heavy at 400g (with bit installed, bit is 50g). A foam bicycle grip handle would be lighter than the inner tube handle but I like the inner tube handle since I can make it big enough for my big hands. You could cut it off shorter too.

The drill bits are available for $6.55. Item A3754 made in the USA here:
http://www.buydrillbits.com/products/masonry/step2.php?s=ATaper

So, buy the holder for $10, get a bit for $6.55 and you are good to go.

I also have a $20 hammer that I like.

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 6, 2012 - 12:14pm PT

Nice Banquo!

The sport climbers package:

mctwisted

Trad climber

e.p.

Mar 6, 2012 - 12:33pm PT

mucci, those are sweet, did john make those?

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 6, 2012 - 12:38pm PT

Yup John's work...the drills, bits, hangers.

The bigger "sportclimberspackage" drill has 20 or so holes on it.

mctwisted

Trad climber

e.p.

Mar 6, 2012 - 12:45pm PT

whats the hanger material?

cragnshag

Social climber

san joser

Mar 6, 2012 - 01:33pm PT

OK, I have to hit John up for one of those 4 OZ drills. Perfect for backcountry occasional use, no? How many 1/4" holes can you get on one HSS bit? Weight of the bits can add up. Maybe fit it with a 1/4" dia carbide tip bit for longevity?

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 6, 2012 - 01:42pm PT

Ss on the hangers

The bits are good for at least 6, and then a sharpen, repeat for years.

Crags- exactly.

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Mar 6, 2012 - 02:00pm PT

How is the bit held in?

I've used HSS bits, the ones I made out of twist drills only lasted a hole or two but they can be sharpened with a diamond file as can carbide bits. Since the shaft and the point are the same diameter, they can bind up.

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 6, 2012 - 07:10pm PT

From the developer

Intended to be super-light and pretty much "disposable".

1/4" dia HSS or solid Carbide bit. Shaped like old Rawl or 5.10 type bits. Sharpenable as many times as needed.

My theory on why the bits work so well is that anything with flutes is pretty much a stretched-out spring in shape and will dampen a hammer blow. 2.5-3 mins a hole without really trying.

Annealed(soft) handle. Doesn't really mushroom too much to worry me enough to harden them, and you have to sharpen the bit on a grinder every once in a while anyhow, so clean up the mushrooming when doing so.

The bit is semi-permanently taper-pinned perpendicular to the bit ( there is a cutout ground into the side of the bit that the pin crosses through). You should, in theory, be able to get the pin out and replace the bit but I have not tried yet.

>>>With a small rack of SS hangers, buttonheads or 4 piece powers, a 4-6oz drill, you are light enough for a real backcountry application.

Items available upon request. Just trying to keep the dream alive.

Mucci

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 7, 2012 - 07:56pm PT

Bump for the mini beat stick.

What's the word, from all five of you 1/4" drillers out there?

mctwisted

Trad climber

e.p.

Mar 7, 2012 - 08:49pm PT

looks like a great way to go, seems like you would want to have two of them on you, so if you were way out and for some reason broke a bit you could still work. have you guys tested the mini version? i am curious how much two of those little guys would set me back, does definitely look real good for the back country routes, or for wall f.a.'s. thanks jg for the pics! very cool

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 7, 2012 - 09:37pm PT

We are just trying to get an idea if/how many would be interested in a light drill kit.

The Bits are where its at. John has placed around 6- 1" buttonheads with the bit without sharpenening.

I will send some PM's out to those who are interested. Proto's are floating as we speak...

Klaus- That drill is choice, great history. Not very beat up though?

My current rawl holder seems to be softer than the first one I used. Lots of wear.

Cheers!

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Mar 9, 2012 - 08:28pm PT

I decided to goof off in the garage for a little while this afternoon and see what I could come up with.

WBraun

climber

Mar 9, 2012 - 08:44pm PT

You call that goofing off?

That's some nice work .....:-)

adatesman

climber

philadelphia, pa

Mar 10, 2012 - 12:08am PT

You call that goofing off?

Looks like an hour, maybe two if beer's involved. So yes, I'd call that goofing off. Then again, like Banquo I spend my free time goofing around with metalworking equipment. Nice work, BTW. Surprised the A taper is making a bit of a resurgence.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Mar 10, 2012 - 12:17am PT

does somebody make a drill that won't go

Bap Bap Bap Bap Bap Bap!

it's like, "hear i am, bust me!"

adatesman

climber

philadelphia, pa

Mar 10, 2012 - 12:41am PT

Actually, yes. Read a paper on it a couple years back and it's basically a miniaturized microwave antenna that heats the rock in front of the drill bit, make drilling easier (and presumably quieter). Unfortunately the power supply isn't exactly portable, so limited application in climbing.

http://www.newscientist.com/blog/invention/2008/04/microwave-rock-drill.html

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Mar 10, 2012 - 01:31am PT

You call that goofing off?

Yes, just goofing off. Glad you like it.

Looks like an hour, maybe two if beer's involved.

Probably less than an hour. I cut down an A-Taper chuck adapter ($10, see previous page of thread) with a 4" angle grinder and attached a cable ($0.45, those copper swages are costy). I can't find a cheap source for 1/4" A-Taper bits so that cost $10. I get the 3/8" bits for $6 or 7.

One could easily make the holder on a lathe but the adapters are cheap and come already hardened. In fact, they are very hard and one needs carbide bits to drill holes in them.

Minerals

Social climber

The Deli

Mar 10, 2012 - 01:49am PT

“I am guessing that you can drill faster with a HSS bit compared to a SDS bit because you can put a really sharp edge on the HSS bits.”

Yes, but also because a flat chisel tip will drill faster than a pointed chisel tip. So, not only is an SDS bit tip dull, it is also the wrong shape.

“How many holes are you guys getting per bit before sharpening?”

It depends. I have a stack of 17/64” HSS bits, so for stance drilling quarter-inchers, I put a fresh bit in for each hole in order to make drilling as easy and quick as possible. When drilling rivet ladders, I can get several holes out of one bit – maybe 10 holes if I really milk it. But remember that you can sharpen a HSS drill bit on the rock between holes. This sharpening isn’t as good as using a grinder, and the corners of the chisel tip will still be slightly rounded, but you can add a sharp edge to the main portion of the chisel tip, which definitely helps. I find that compared to 25/64” HSS bits, I rarely have any problems with 17/64” bits binding; it’s basically not even a concern.

With 25/64” HSS bits, I may get 2 or 3 holes before the bit needs to meet the grinder. But that’s for drilling on lead, when drilling speed/time is more important. When replacing quarter-inchers, I start with a 3/8” SDS bit and then once the 1/4” hole is drilled out, I switch to a 25/64” HSS bit (as Dan mentioned). In this case, I try to milk the HSS bit for several holes, until the corners of the chisel tip are so rounded that binding becomes too much of an issue. Then it’s time for a fresh, sharp bit. Sometimes I sharpen the dull bit on the rock between holes.

Banquo, thanks for posting the photos of your drills. For some reason, based on Cragnshag’s 2/27/12 post, I was thinking that you had a new drill design of sorts, rather than a modified commercial piece. Looks like it is a modern and inexpensive version of the old Rawl holder, that is limited to A-taper bits. Do you have A-taper HSS bits for it?

Cool photos, Mucci. It sure seems like it would be difficult to hang on to that 4 oz. mini drill! How are you supposed to hold it? If the bit cannot be removed easily and it’s kind of a one-shot deal, it seems to me to be more of an emergency drill, rather than something that one would use for putting up new routes, no matter how far you have to walk from your car. Have any of you used it on lead yet? 1” buttonheads? 1.5” is pretty much the standard and 1.25” is a shorty.

The drill in the second photo looks a little more reasonable, but still kinda short. On the second drill, what is the length from the cable to the bit end of the holder?

I would be interested in trying out the drill bits if John can make some with a 17/64” straight shank that will fit into a Hurricane holder. A 1/4” HSS bit drills a hole that is too tight for placing buttonheads in hard granite.

adatesman

climber

philadelphia, pa

Mar 10, 2012 - 01:52am PT

@Banquo- Cheater!!! ;-)

Figured you had made a quick and dirty reamer from A2 or somesuch, but yeah, you can't get quick&dirtier than reworking a $10 holder. Awesome. :)

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Mar 10, 2012 - 02:12am PT

so we had transformer tanks made out of 3/8 steel,

match drilled the lids with a mag drill, 3/8 hardware so 7/16 bit.

64 holes per tank thru 3/4 inch steel each hole, times 10 tanks = 640 holes,

or 480 inches of steel, so we used cobalt bits which lasted forever as long as you kept the juice flowing,

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Mar 10, 2012 - 11:52pm PT

Looks like it is a modern and inexpensive version of the old Rawl holder, that is limited to A-taper bits. Do you have A-taper HSS bits for it?

Same Idea as the Rawl holder but I think the round, hardened wedge for removing the bit works better than the flat type the Rawl used. I don't know if you can get A-Taper HSS bits but the carbide tipped ones are cheap and since the carbide is wider than the shank, they don't bind up as easily. If you like the square cut tip, you can grind down the carbide tipped A-Taper drills. A diamond file (~$20) can also be used to sharpen carbide or HSS bits.

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 13, 2012 - 01:44am PT

Minerals-

John has drilled all of the holes with the two prototype drills I posted.

He uses the 1/4" stock for the chisel tip bit, and places 1/4" x 1.25" buttonheads. He has not had an issue with the placement of the bolt with the 1/4" hole. 1.5" buttonheads are for sport climbs :}

I believe he placed 6 bolts before resharpening. I have not used the drill on lead, but have placed many with my rawl holder using the old chisel tip 5.10 style. Never had an issue with bolt placement either come to think of it.

When/where did you have problems using a 1/4 hss bit, while placing a 1/4" buttonhead? Occasionally I get a dinnerplate, but majority are tight, and would NEVER come out. Replacing them is the proof.

I tend to think of that drill as a backcountry kit, where you are only going to need a hole or two. LIght hammer and that kit is a nice weight savings. Buttonheads with ss hangers, no wrench...Pretty light.

Of course it need some tweaking...So it doesn't crumble when the heavy hitters step up to the plate....

Banquo, that is a great mod and really nice size! Very cool, is that your lead drill? Seems like just what I want to try out.

Edit: 1.25" buttonheads are what John and I use on lead.

Greg Barnes

climber

Mar 13, 2012 - 02:16am PT

If a stance is good enough for 1.5", you might as well drill a 3/8" to begin with!

Just kidding! If I had my HSS system dialed like Minerals then I'd do all 1.5" too. When you go upgrade to 3/8" it's such a royal pain getting the recent 1/4" out that you often wonder why you are bothering. But now and then the recent 1/4" pops pretty easily - particularly in grainier rock.

I use mostly 1.25" but it's nice to have some 1.5" for when the rock has surface flakiness or it's a tad grainy. Surface flakiness is pretty common.

cragnshag

Social climber

san joser

Mar 13, 2012 - 03:07pm PT

Of course it need some tweaking...So it doesn't crumble when the heavy hitters step up to the plate....

oops!

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 13, 2012 - 03:17pm PT

HAH!

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 13, 2012 - 04:34pm PT

Jeremy-

We are talking about drilling in rock not dust.

SUCKA!!!!!

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Mar 14, 2012 - 04:02pm PT

is that your lead drill? Seems like just what I want to try out.

Well it's nothing yet since it hasn't been used. When I drill, which I try to avoid, I use Bob's drill. He always insists that we climb with his gear which saves a lot of wear and tear on my gear.

What I need is 1/4" hangers. I see Moses is selling some at mountaintools but they are $6 which I am sure he needs to break even. Perhaps I need to make some and test them. Homemade hangers seem to be in bad favor these days. Should be fairly easy to come up with something adequate for 1/4" button heads.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Mar 14, 2012 - 04:47pm PT

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 14, 2012 - 04:49pm PT

The 1/4" ones in my picture above are made in the shop. They have been used by john and myself since last season.

We have a run going right now...

Minerals

Social climber

The Deli

Mar 15, 2012 - 06:57pm PT

Thanks for your reply, Banquo. Using a file to sharpen HSS bits seems like it would take a while, but you wouldn’t have to worry about heating up the metal. I use a bench grinder to sharpen HSS bits and try not to get the metal too hot.

Mucci, thanks for the details. I place 1.5” quarter-inchers because it only takes another 15 or 20 seconds (at the most) to drill that extra depth, compared to using 1.25” buttonheads. Sometimes I drill the hole deeper than 1.5” without meaning to. It seems like starting the hole is what takes more time; once you get going, the drilling goes a lot faster.

I have used 17/64” bits for quarter-inchers in the Valley for years. When I started putting up routes in Tuolumne in 2005, I figured that the coarse-grained rock would require a 1/4” HSS bit for buttonheads… so that’s what I used. The bolt bent and the rock cratered when I pounded the bolt in. So, I switched back to 17/64” after that and it has worked fine, and that’s what I have been using ever since. And as Greg mentioned, in good rock, fresh quarter-inchers (in a 17/64” hole) often don’t want to come out when you go to pull them for replacement, leaving you wondering why you are even bothering to replace the bolt! A 1/4” SDS bit will drill a hole that is slightly larger in diameter than 1/4” (same principle as the 3/8” SDS bits). I’d be happy to take one of those minis for a spin to see how it works, even if it’s just on a solid granitic boulder around here for now, and then on a real climb later. If the 1/4” diameter bit still seems like a problem, then maybe we can try 17/64” bits.

“We are talking about drilling in rock not dust.”

LOL. Yeah, drilling a 3/8” hole in the Fishers with a hand drill is like drilling through butter… even with a SureDrillsSlow bit…

Banquo, if you are looking for hangers to use with 1/4” buttonheads, I recommend the Mad Rock hangers with a 5/16” washer. The Mad Rock hangers are not too expensive and the stainless material is actually thinner than that of an SMC hanger, which partially makes up for using a washer. I have been quite happy with them… except for when the price went from $1.95 each to $2.95 each. They seem to be fairly durable for repeated use and the rounded biner contact area is nice. Those excessively heavy Fixe hangers are way too sharp and like to eat biners.

http://store.madrockclimbing.com/sentinelhanger.aspx

As far as homemade hangers go, I see no problem with them as long as they are not sharp, do not protrude from the rock too much, and physics is taken into account to minimize leverage on the bolt.

drljefe

climber

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson

Jul 5, 2012 - 10:51pm PT

Lots of good advice here, maybe too much for me!
It's been a while.
Just tell me what to buy! Holder, bits, bolts, and hangers.
For use in granite. Free climbing protection bolts and anchors.
The petzl is available here in town- sixty something bucks...

drljefe

climber

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson

Jul 6, 2012 - 09:40pm PT

Checked out the petzl- it IS tiny, and the corresponding bits were 50 bucks.
Time to go internet shopping i guess.
Anyone?

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Jul 6, 2012 - 10:29pm PT

Get the Petzl RocPec, it's what's readily available. 50 bucks for a bit is nonsense. Pick up SDS bits at Ace Hardware or Home Depot, bosch and Hilti bits work best. Don't waste your time with the more expensive Hilti double tipped (cross pattern) bits as they drill slower in a hand drill, and don't get the cheapo galvanized masonry bits.

Now find a bench grinder and slowly grind down the tips following the existing contours of the tip. You should have two grinds on each side of the bit, one larger than the other. Careful not to heat the tip too much.

Now go out and drill. You get about 6 to 10 holes before you need to re sharpen. Using an unmodified SDS bit will get you around 6 holes but drill significantly slower from the start.

Climb Axe had a sale on stainless hangers recently. 1.95ea no shipping charges. If they still offer that, you can't beat that price anywhere.

As for bolts, depends on what you want.
Confast has the bolts I like. As good as if not better quality than Powers at a much cheaper price. And they're 1/4in rivets (split drive) bolts are much stronger than anyone elses around.
http://www.confast.com/products/thunderstud-anchor.aspx

drljefe

climber

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson

Jul 6, 2012 - 11:03pm PT

Thanks for the hookups salamanizer.
The petzl was a nice solid little unit.
But as others said, way small grip.
I'll use my buddie's tomorrow and then bite the bullet.
Hangers at this same shop were 5bucks!