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James

Social climber
My Subconcious
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 1, 2005 - 03:11pm PT
What inventive methods can one use to protect wide climbing besides buying gear?
I've heard you can stack cams but haven't tried it. I belayed someone who whipped on a cam/wood block stack and that worked. What about those old school tubes? Did anyone ever whip on those things? What else were you using?
ricardo

Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 1, 2005 - 03:14pm PT
i've heard that you can stack a cam and a shoe to get that extra inch of protection
locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Nov 1, 2005 - 03:25pm PT
"What about those old school tubes?"......you mean Big Bro's???
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 1, 2005 - 04:01pm PT
Cams work
Bongs, with or without hammer, depending on placement, work,
Big bros work
Tube chocks™ work
Titons™ work
I-beams™* (once availible up to 24"), work
wood works
Bolts, as appropriate, work o-oh

Each has been used in situations too many to list, and caught many falls.
I have placed and fallen on stacks of; cams/wood, hexes/wood, multiple hexes, bongs/wood, maybe others. I have placed stacked cams to see if they work. -Tested this combo so far as the pullup level, still good, never done this on lead, I am a parent, after all.

Cams are easiest, most reliable, (by and large), and most costly.
All wide protection options are cumbersome. A lot of the time the run-out option is the most expedient. After all, if you're 'in' it, often no further pro is needed.

Chuck Pratt (etal) made a leap in OW technique with the runout/don't fall/selfbelay through technique-approach. Randy Leavit (etal) added stacking/Leavitation. Since then it's been evolutionary, not revolutionary.



-*CMI, Rombauer/Joy of Cooking Money
James

Social climber
My Subconcious
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2005 - 06:02pm PT
Jaybro,
Perfect response, thanks.

Locker,
I meant tube chocks. I've seen them cut but they are usually one size and placed like nuts. It seemed like you would need an arsenal and really have to be resourceful to get the proper protection. I must admit to being rather lazy and subscribing more to the Pratt don't fall technigue.
locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Nov 1, 2005 - 06:12pm PT
"don't fall technigue."......this is the necessary technique when climbing with my main partner Woody....
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Nov 1, 2005 - 06:21pm PT
ron kauk on sky, 1977 (ripped off from the 1978 GPIW catalog.)

note tube chocks and slung bongs. i always found that slung bongs worked best...you could dink 'em in to some really subtle placements. uh, not that they'd hold a fall or anything.....

get out there n' get after it, bro.

Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Nov 1, 2005 - 06:53pm PT
And why, exactly, is Ron laybacking an off width? "The technique of no technique." Is that the top, one move away from the last placement, or the underside of a roof?

By the way, I always thought that slung bongs were nice decoration on free climbs, unless they were a perfect chock placement.

James, sometimes tube chocks would fit in a special place and would work great. Usually, however, they were a little too long, too short, or the end angle to acute for the length. Also, fiddling around with pro and getting out of position or pumped was not a good mix with 'rely on technique for protection.'

WBraun

climber
Nov 1, 2005 - 06:57pm PT
Holy sh-it that's SKY on the first ascent top left side of Elephant Rock. Dale Bard and I tried it a few days earlier when Dale took a huge wipper upside down and knocked himself kind off silly. He came back with Kauk and Ron leads it for the first.

What you don't see in the picture is the corner overhangs like crazy, hence that is the reason Ron is lybacking.

A great test piece.

I wonder if that's my photo or Clevengers.
Russ Walling

Social climber
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Nov 1, 2005 - 07:31pm PT
Too bad he is aiding it..... check the tape job.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 1, 2005 - 07:46pm PT
I think that's Skye, with an E on the end. I followed the late, great Lynn 'Wheels' Wheeler on that one. No tape, maybe the last route we did in EB's. I was always going to go back and lead it.
WBraun

climber
Nov 1, 2005 - 08:02pm PT
No jaybro it's "sky". Jardine pointed it out to us originally.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 1, 2005 - 08:19pm PT
Duh, oh well, wondered if there was a gaelic story, or something. I know I saw that E somewhere.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Nov 1, 2005 - 08:35pm PT
5.11 sandbag.

and you guys think his placed those pieces from a layback position? c'mon. at that point in the route you stuff into the crack to get a coupl decent pieces, then hail-mary for the summit. standard practice waaaaaaay back in the muthafukkin' day.

p.s. -- werner, you took that pic. how's the alzheimer's these days?
WBraun

climber
Nov 1, 2005 - 08:37pm PT
He placed them on the lyback, I'm the witness among others.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Nov 1, 2005 - 08:38pm PT
damn. that's burly. enduro++
James

Social climber
My Subconcious
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2005 - 08:39pm PT
I never could quite figure out the whole tape glove thing. Way too complicated. What about big bros are they "light"?
Russ Walling

Social climber
NOT FOR LOAN™ CC3
Nov 1, 2005 - 08:40pm PT
Pretty light.. but not as light as a runout.
WBraun

climber
Nov 1, 2005 - 08:41pm PT
Big bros, they suck, they are a pain to place. I'd just as soon keep moving.....yikes strung out again.
Ben Wah

Social climber
Nov 1, 2005 - 10:19pm PT
James,
for the right price I will custom-make you some tubes of any length you want. Email me.
Ben
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Nov 2, 2005 - 12:20am PT
"I must admit to being rather lazy and subscribing more to the Pratt don't fall technigue.:

Oh yeah? How's that workin' out for ya?

Sorry, cheap shot...
James

Social climber
My Subconcious
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2005 - 08:09am PT
Lambone,
It worked well for a little while but I found a flaw...
TradIsGood

Trad climber
Gunks end of country
Nov 2, 2005 - 08:13am PT
Nice recovery.
eastsidedirtbag@hotmail.com

climber
Mammoth Lakes,CA
Nov 2, 2005 - 02:48pm PT
The ability to push wide cams ahead of yourself makes them, at least in my cowardly and whipper-avoidant mind, far superior to tube chocks.
dmitry

Trad climber
Chita, Russia
Nov 2, 2005 - 02:55pm PT
I am in the Big Bros suck camp.
Not a reassuring piece of gear: very insecure placements.

They mostly just suck the money out of your wallet.

Cheers,
d
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 2, 2005 - 03:11pm PT
Glad I didn't pay for mine. Least I got my money's worth.
dmitry

Trad climber
Chita, Russia
Nov 2, 2005 - 03:22pm PT
Just my honest opinion, Jay.
Cheers,
d
dmitry

Trad climber
Chita, Russia
Nov 2, 2005 - 03:26pm PT
I would be at a good stance, really wanting to work in a piece, struggling with a Bro for 5 minutes and then finally giving up and just running it out. What am I missing, Jay?
Watusi

Social climber
Joshua Tree, CA
Nov 3, 2005 - 09:04am PT
Tube chocks Rocked!! I remember a super placement for one on "The Castaways" Roof at Josh, and it was a 7" bottleneck and only a Tube would stay in! I just had to give it a good kick to set it as I was passing it to prevent rope movement from dislodging it!!
LongAgo

Trad climber
Nov 5, 2005 - 11:07am PT
Ibeams held a couple of my slithering falls. Less bulky than tubes. However, I always wondered if they would stab me to death in a big tumbler.

Tom Higgins
LongAgo
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 5, 2005 - 12:00pm PT
Dmitry, Droog
I'm not a big fan of bigbros (bolshoye brati?) either. they work best in parrallel sided palcements, but I'm not usually patient enough to place them unless I feel I REALLY need one. I prefer the runout or the cam-slide. I have placed them and felt they would catch me, though.(only weighted them experimentaly, though, never a whipper.
I press the none trigger end against the rock, press the button and let the other sidecontact the other end of the gap, fiddle to satsifaction and crank down the ring. Some placements are way better than others.
couple of routes @ Patterson flake area they are good for, though.
Do you know of a free Cyrillic codex that works on OSX?
WoodyS

Trad climber
Riverside
Nov 5, 2005 - 01:34pm PT
I own one Big Bro, and I'll never buy another. I wandered around one morning in JT trying to set it in various cracks so I was satisfied that it would hold a fall. I never could.
ChrisW

Trad climber
boulder, co
Nov 5, 2005 - 08:11pm PT
Tube Chocks are good. (Not BigBros) I brought a set from a grad student at CU my second year of climbing. He handed them over to me and said with a big grin..."Have fun". They work great in Sandstone and smooth rock. They seem not as solid in granite that have big crystals in it. I Have never actually tested this observation. I prefer the "Human Chockstone" method in offwiths anyways.

It takes a whole different attitude towards climbing for me to battle offwiths. The more you struggle and get upset and curse the more punishment the crack gives you. Gotta almost meditate and of course levitate to get up those wide things. Breathing slow and moving slow and only a little bit at a time seems to work.
ChrisW

Trad climber
boulder, co
Nov 5, 2005 - 08:15pm PT
I guess any crack thats Parallel and not flaring They work good in. Maybe, a Offset Bigbro will go on the market sometime in the future? When all the young boulders get into the new in thing and start climbing offwiths.....Yeah right.....
Brutus of Wyde

climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
Nov 5, 2005 - 08:53pm PT
"Since then it's been evolutionary, not revolutionary. "

As in,

Natural Selection.

Big Bros work.

But not in Josh. Too flared.

Used two on a lead just last month.

Brutus

Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 6, 2005 - 11:55am PT
RE: Sky.
This was one of my last projects; it’s fun that you are talking about it! We were the first to work on it, 1973-74, one day only. It is accessed via rap from the top of Elephant.

It was two short pitches. I onsighted the first pitch, a ferocious 5”-7” (varying), offwidth, perhaps 5.11c-d? It turned out to be harder than Basketcase’s crux. The last pitch was this (pictured) 4” crack with a slightly granular edge. The main wall overhung perhaps 15 degrees; the book wall must have been 25-35 degrees. The section was about 20-25ft long, to easy rock and the top. I tried to offwidth this last part, but at 4”-4.5”, and so very overhanging doubly, I couldn’t get it. I showed it to Dale B., and I think he soon named it Sky (before the FA) since it was so overhanging, and so high up on Elephant. A few days later we had dinner at the Four Seasons, our name on the wait list, “Sky, party of two”.

Hell-bent-for-leather liebacking was the solution, and that is how it was eventually climbed two years or so later. Protecting on lead by this approach was of course a huge issue.... I heard they had rehearsed it---it would have been easy since you rap the route to get to it. I don’t know; ask Ron. Yes and Ray knew about it apparently also; he had been studying Elephant for a couple of years by that point. There are some more projects like this in the Valley still, too.
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Nov 6, 2005 - 12:34pm PT
Hi Peter. It has been a long time since I have heard your 'voice.' The last time may have been when you dragged me up 'Secret Storm,' (1970, I think) behind Camp Four--my first off-width.

Nice bit of historical perspective on Sky. (I never tried it.)

Welcome to ST. I think that you know some of the folks who post here occasionally, although most a bit younger.

All the best, Roger
Blinny

Trad climber
NorthWestMontana
Nov 6, 2005 - 12:38pm PT
HeyUnderCling!

How the heck are ya? Haven't heard much from you in a while! Hope all is cool!

:-)

Kath - MissusBlinny (SilentPartnerFolks)
http://blanchardguitars.com

P.S. Funny that you would mention using the name "Sky" for dinner reservations. . . when I took the boys out for dinner at the "Foul Squeezings" after the first ascent of the P.O. I put us down as "P.O." and the announcement was HILARIOUS. . . "P.O. Party of 6 your table is ready, P.O. Party of 6 your table is ready." To which Bridwell replied "HunhUh. . . there were only FOUR OF US!"

HohMahn!

Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 6, 2005 - 04:43pm PT
Hi Rog and Kath,

Thanks for the hellos. Living in San Francisco and Santa Cruz, still contracting. Not climbing much, but reading ST. Great to hear from both of you, and thanks Kath for the url, I had lost it. Hope all is well.

Roger, I do remember that Secret Storm ascent; that was the FA. We had fun.

It derived its name from Fredericks' wonderful, much classier, harder, earlier climb next to it: Edge of Night. Buddhist Chris hadn't been near a TV in decades probably. So I had to explain that since his romantic, evocative climb name was also the title of a big soap opera in the sixties we had followed suit with Secret Storm, another one. Klemens thought this one up; he has always been incredibly good at poking fun at stuff. Chris was scandalized, and pleaded the case of getting up his route just at the "edge of night" and that he had not named his baby after a TV show. It had been a severe epic for him, and for years it was thought of as one of the really serious offwidths, kind of a test piece. Perhaps Chris' one of his most important free leads on his own.

Did you know that I did Secret Storm several more times in the 70's and 80's, the last time with Russ McLean? Most interestingly, I rescued Eric Schoen's little brother on it with Werner, about 1975 in summer I think. While on lead Schoen had allowed himself to drop down a bit at the crux in the offwidth narrows, and had nutted his knee in there perhaps 50 feet above the ground and his belayer. That was a clear hazard most leaders would have immediately sensed as they entered that section. To make matters even funnier and radically embarassing for his young self, he had developed during his struggles, a huge rip in his pants at the crotch with nothing else on underneath, kind of suddenly climbing an offwidth nude! Needless to say, I got right below him while on lead; then he could stand on my outside shoulder human-pyramid-style, lift himself out of there then continue up to the anchors. He was just fine, though really blown out. They had been screaming for help for quite some time. Fortunately it was not with night approaching. Going into that situation, Werner and I were quite serious, ran up the damn talus from Camp and everything, having no info at all on what was really going on.

best to you, PH
loads

Trad climber
Phoenix AZ.
Nov 6, 2005 - 04:58pm PT


Yep they were great...
WBraun

climber
Nov 6, 2005 - 05:06pm PT
Hello Peter good to hear from you again. It's been a long time. That incident on Secret Storm was funny. I just ate a big bowl of spaghetti when we ran up there. I think Pete Livesly was there too? He went to the top as I remember.

I never forget all those days we listen to your stereo in your VW Van, Cream, Hendrix, and real LOUD!

Thanks for all the great days back then and teaching me how to climb.

Best Werner
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Nov 6, 2005 - 06:15pm PT
Hey Peter:

That is a great story about Schoen’s little brother. The imagery of you climbing up and getting him to stand on your shoulder with his private parts exposed is too funny. Somehow it seems so typical of off-widths. It would make a good scene in ‘the’ Yosemite movie.

I didn’t know that “Edge of Night” was not named after the soaps nor did I know Mark named ‘Secret Storm.” I absolutely agree with you on Mark’s route naming abilities—I don’t know which he is responsible for but—“Quickie quizzes,” “Final Exam,”--about as far away from the entrance as you can get--(“Application” by Barry and you is great also) “Bongs Away,” “Cartwheel,” “Gripper,” “Cream,” “Jam Session,” “Narrow Escape” are all classic.

With “Secret Storm” and “General Hospital,” Chris must have felt like serious climbing was going to hell in a hand basket. Although he did name another of his routes on the Camp Four wall Doggie Do. (BTW, have you seen Chris lately?)

I am not so sure that I would classify my seconding you on the FA of “Secret Strom” as fun. I had never been on an off width up to that point that I could not reach past or stem or face climb around. Also,it was one of my first 5.10 climbs. I had no technique and remember some exhausting thrashing. You were very patient. Eventually, I figured out how to do them, and enjoyed my subsequent ascents of “Secret Storm.”

When George was writing his first guide he asked me to look over the routes that I had been party to. He had ‘Secret Storm’ rated 5.8 or 5.9. I thought it was just a sandbag and told him so. He protested that the chimney was only 5.8 or 5.9 and seemed sincere. I said, “Come on, George, there is a hard section getting into the chimney—it is hard to get into to it and it is easy to get stuck.” George sort of had a blank look on his face—we were very good friends and knew each other’s modes of reacting—so I gave some more description of the section. Then the light went on—and he exclaimed, “Oh, yeah, that’s 5.10, for sure.”

ST can be a fun place not to climb. We trade stories—some of which are undoubtedly true--and sometimes interesting tidbits come out—Werner has lots of them. So do John Long and Kath. Lately, more of the old crowd has shown up. Tom Higgins has posted a bit recently. I hope Tom sticks around. And, I always encourage everyone to join in. At its best, it is like an evening around a camp fire in the Valley. It is starting to feel like a multi-gererational community.

It is also pretty neat to get to ‘meet’ climbers who came after I let the Valley, mostly folks I know about only by what I have read. Obviously a lot has changed since the 1970s and it is interesting to hear people’s views in the first person.

I hope all is well with you. Great to hear from you.

All the best, Roger
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 6, 2005 - 07:40pm PT
Great to hear some history of those climbs. Edge of Night was my first foray into 10c ow back as a wee sprout (I can still feel the moves twenty odd years later); two weeks after seceret storm. thanks for the stories and the routes.

I always figured someone had been watching TV with my mom.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 7, 2005 - 07:14am PT
Hi Rog and Werner!
It’s true, Chris Fredericks did think that climbing was going to hell in a handbasket, especially after Pratt---his incomparable mentor---had pulled away from really deep climbing by 1971. His whole group naturally thought they had done all the last free problems in Yosemite.....Chris still hung around in Camp often, tried to maintain some dominance; it couldn’t stick. Instead and as always, new talent came in, some learned from old talent leaving, some didn’t and some died, but basically this arcane art obviously progressed. It is always best to acknowledge greatness in others, especially the younger talented ones (grin & lol).

Haven’t seen Chris for at least 30 years. Roper knows what’s going on I am sure. But a number of us continued on Pratt’s path, with the most profound respect. I have a photo of Pratt the summer before he died, btw. Also of Kor, in Guam with his family only 6 years ago. I can post them if you like. And to update you on other friends, I see Doug Robinson, Al Steck, Vandiver, Roper (steveroper@aol.com) every few years or so also. And of course contacted Dale after Alan’s death.
Another interesting tidbit, I saw Bridwell a few summers ago at this large reunion on the East side that Dennis Miller, Russ McLean, Tom Carter et al organize. Jim and I stayed afterwards for half a day just being together talking; the younger group there was scandalized of course since they have been trying to marginalize him for the last 25 years. But he and I had a really deep, complex and special friendship that just picked up where it had left off in 1975. We went through the first couple of big El Cap rescues together (70-73), and some FAs. He and Klemens kept a watchful eye on me every day on the Salathe solo too. I think that is why my van had little gas when I got back... (g). Oh, and to charge the battery for the 8-track, as Werner notes! It all did not seem so great to me when I was 22 and suffering in the dirt, but you guys were really interesting friends whom I would remember for the rest of my life.
Werner, you are one of our great geniuses, completely unique. You have climbed your own climbing, for 35 years, often at the highest levels. You have been courageous, impeccable, decent. It is just incredible. You have made a complete life doing this; you have achieved the highest respect and awe of all who know you. If there is an artist in Yosemite, it is you. And all this, solidly spanning more than three decades!
I will put up some more fun stories here on ST, soon.

Best PH
Brutus of Wyde

climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
Nov 7, 2005 - 07:19pm PT
Just to update you old fossils:
Allen Steck is still climbing, although he has to watch his heart rate more than ever these days.

Last summer he put up a few new routes in the backcountry near Wishon Reservoir, a 5.7 (Golden Tower, 3 pitches) and a 5.9+ (Seem's Holy, 3 pitches.)

Brutus
Deadwood Mountain

climber
Nov 7, 2005 - 07:21pm PT
hearing folks reminisce about the good old days is so... nice.

it will never be like those days again... too bad for the modern day climbers...
LittlePinkTricam

Trad climber
Providence, RI
Nov 7, 2005 - 09:16pm PT
I think the modern climbing community's still got a little something...
Unlike modern music. Silly, silly modern music.
dmitry

Trad climber
Chita, Russia
Nov 8, 2005 - 11:50am PT
Jay,

Regarding "Do you know of a free Cyrillic codex that works on OSX?".
I haven't done much with Russian for the past 7 years (used to teach Russian language & literature at a few colleges years ago), so I don't have an immediate answer. Plus I used to do all language stuff on a Mac. Let me root aroud a bit and get back to you.

Re Big Bros: that's what I also find, ANY flaring, however imperceptible, reduces the placement security a great deal. I've gotten a couple more WC Friends (5's & 6's) and sold my Bros.

Cheers,
d

t-bird

Trad climber
Santa Cruz,CA
Nov 8, 2005 - 07:57pm PT
Peter!
Doug and Jim climbed Snake Dike a couple of weeks ago! I wished I could have been there.
You need to come down to Santa Cruz and play on plastic with us. It's been too long.
be well,
T
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 9, 2005 - 07:12am PT
HI Tauna,

I wish I had been there too on Snake Dike with them. I remember the day when JB did the FA too. Doug and JB climb with tons of feeling, always have. I think that is the point, simple as it may seem, and usually overlooked or avoided.

I actually dropped in at Pacific Edge a couple of weeks ago to say hi to Diane R. and Tom D. btw. Tom D had done Lotus Flower Tower recently, and had lots to tell. Perhaps I will be in soon; I have some work down there, and really like that gym, too.

Check out my new post on Bridwell.

Hugs PH
locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Nov 9, 2005 - 11:35am PT
"hearing folks reminisce about the good old days is so... nice.

it will never be like those days again... too bad for the modern day climbers...............

......give it ten, twenty maybe thirty years dude!!!...then look back and tell me what you think.............
t-bird

Trad climber
Santa Cruz,CA
Nov 9, 2005 - 12:38pm PT
I'm including a TR link from another(Tom) friend of mine who got off the tower the day before Tom arrived. A spectacular trip on all counts.

http://tom.grundy.tripod.com/basedir/nahanni.html

Peter, tell Tom or whomever is in to let me know if your around or email directly.
scuffy b

climber
S Cruz
Nov 9, 2005 - 12:56pm PT
Peter, we've moved (not far).
Check your email.
Steve m
WBraun

climber
Nov 9, 2005 - 12:58pm PT
t-bird

Thanks for sharing that trip report and Wow! really cool.
Hans.H

Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
Nov 10, 2005 - 08:33pm PT
Let us talk climbing
scuffy b

climber
Sinatra to Singapore
Jul 21, 2009 - 10:32am PT
check out the link in t-bird's last post.

A great trip report.
nutjob

climber
Berkeley, CA
Jul 21, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
Damn you... I've read this before but still had quite an extended lunch break to get through it again! Worth the bump.
scuffy b

climber
heading slowly NNW
Mar 14, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
Sort of a gossip opportunity, since Peter, Werner and bvb seem to be around
lately.
I was around one time when Dale had just returned from some extended
absence and was fully enthused and nostalgic, sort of manically listing the
great days to come (I wonder how many partners he wore out that week).
He wanted to do a Cookie day, for example, see how many pitches it was
possible to do in one day.

But anyway, SKY. He so wanted to go back to Sky and jam it.
"It's an obvious lieback" he said, but he claimed it was the Only Off
Width that had ever Spit Him Out and he really wanted to make amends for
that.
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Mar 14, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
run it out james.
no purchase required.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 5, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
bump
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