Can Free-Soloing Be a Dick Move?

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bbbeans

Trad climber
Bozeman, MT
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 8, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
I was climbing at a local crag over the weekend. We had just put up a rope on this 5.7, the day was getting on and a very inexperienced climber that was with us was about to rope up.

A guy that had been climbing with his freinds near us earlier asked if he could jump on the route real quick. I had seen earlier that this guy was fairly good and was wondering why he wanted to climb the easiest route on the wall.

I was talking about who was going to belay him and he just up and free-soloed the route. Stepping around our rope and everything while we waited at the bottom.

I am working on being less judgemental in my life. I am wondering how other climbers see the ethics of interrupting our plans so that you can free-solo the route we are about to climb. It seemed a little dickish to me but maybe thats just me.

Thoughts?
Jim E

climber
away
Mar 8, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
In this particular case, yes, it was a dick move.

Free-soloing itself is not necessarily a dick move.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Mar 8, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
If he asked to climb the route and you agreed, why is it rude to do so sans rope?

Now, if he didn't ask (or you said no) and just butted ahead, that would be a dick move.
Cpt0bvi0u5

Trad climber
Merced CA
Mar 8, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
yeah thats a dick move dude. But free soloing in general usually isnt. But with the way that guy acted I'm sure its not long till his number is up. You free solo for yourself. If you do it for anyone else YER GONNA DIE!
bbbeans

Trad climber
Bozeman, MT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
I certainly have nothing against free-soloing per se. Just under these circumstances it seemed a little impure.

Also, I had the thought..."If this guy falls right at my feet, the responsibility will be on me to treat him or find someone who can"...which I wasn't too excited about.
mountain dog

Trad climber
over the hills and far away
Mar 8, 2010 - 05:01pm PT
Dick move. A showoff stroking his ego.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 8, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
Thoughts? My first thought is to ask if you were with any cute / hot women. If yes, then definitely a dick move (and there are guys out there that will do this sh#t in the presence of lingering pheremones of females no longer around). Otherwise could be either a normal day out or still an exercise in posing - hard to tell without being there or knowing the climber.
waulrat

Big Wall climber
Santa Rosa, CA
Mar 8, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
I would say dick move. My first thought was, there must be ladies around he was trying to impress as well
apogee

climber
Mar 8, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
"If he asked to climb the route and you agreed, why is it rude to do so sans rope?"

My thought exactly. Not a dick move.


"Just under these circumstances it seemed a little impure."

That's where you are making a bit of a value judgement on what soloing is, and how it should be done. We probably share a similar view that soloing is a personal, private experience (thus the name 'solo'), but others feel differently.

That said, there is a very good chance that his choice to do that in the presence of others was nothing more than n00b ego stroking. Whatever.
bbbeans

Trad climber
Bozeman, MT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2010 - 05:08pm PT
Well it was my friend with his wife and me with my girlfriend, both of these females are attractive.

He didn't mention free-soloing the route when he asked to climb it. I assumed he would be using a rope.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Mar 8, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
Mid-70's ... some Camarillo buds and I were farting around Stoney practicing our killer top rope moves on A-Frame Left when up steps Mr. Too Tight Shorts who stands and watches our flailing attempts at greatness.

Finally he coughs up that we suck for hogging the route and with great flamboyance starts up A-Frame Right - sans rope of course - all the while lecturing my crew about "real climbing".

Yeah whatever dickhead.

I was about 2/3rd's the way up left just playing with handholds when we whizzes up next to me and gives me this speech about "committing to the stone and how we suck and watch him if we want to learn how to climb like a hardman."

Yeah whatever dickhead.

Two moves up from me I watch this prick peel off after blowing a lunge and down to reality he goes - of course he just has to topple backwards so that his head smacks first. Ever see a pumpkin dropped from 25 feet? I did.

Dude actually stayed alive long enough to make us promise not to tell his girlfriend. We promised.

Still thought he was a dick for showing off.
Loomis

climber
*_*
Mar 8, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
Perhaps this fellow wents into "Dick Mode"™ seeing the opposite sex around?
Brian

climber
California
Mar 8, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
Not a dick move, since he asked and you agreed.

However, a total poseur move.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Mar 8, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
He asked and you said it was ok so the only judgement I can have is
"not a dick"

The thing is we don't know what was going on in his head. Perhaops this is part of his solo circuit?

It's not a dick move to solo on after six or many other climbs where you have to pass people...

kev
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 8, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
Not a dick move. Maybe dick motives--has was getting ready to leave, saw a newbie about to start up, didn't want to wait, etc.--but at least he had the courtesy to ask (and believe me, I've seen lots of people from back in the day who didn't) and you said 'OK.' He might have been a dick, but he handled it like he wasn't one.
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Mar 8, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
Not a dick move. You had a TR set on a 5.7. He asked, you gave him the OK.
Maysho

climber
Soda Springs, CA
Mar 8, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
I am a pretty tolerant guy in general, but it seems like once or twice a season I will be teaching a group of kids at School Rock at Donner and someone will see fit to solo up or down the teaching slab while I am obviously running a class for impressionable kids.

Once last summer a bystander dude was asking me about how hard it was, I was busy belaying a student, not really tuning into his scene just thought he was asking in a general sense so I told him it was pretty easy, next thing I know I look up from helping a kid tie in and this guy has soloed up to 2/3 height in his street shoes and starts shaking, turns out he wasn't even a climber! So I get my co-leader on belay and we rescue him. He was contrite and apologetic, I politely told him it was a bonehead move, and to sign up for a class sometime.

Another time a guy down climbed unroped right through my class. I was pretty pissed, as it is quite easy to walk around. I made it a teachable moment, as I had some teens in the group, saying loud enough that he and the girl he was trying to impress could hear, "free soloing by expert climbers can be a bold and rich experience, soloing right over a group of beginners youth in a class is a totally stupid bonehead move!"

I like to make my solos really solo, once I couldn't see a party up on a route and I did pass them but only after apologizing, and asking if it was okay at the time.

Peter
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Mar 8, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
Most of my dick moves involve some level of alcohol consumption. Was the free-soloist drinking? Just wondering if other climbers suffer from the same 'Alcohol Dick' syndrome.

I doubt it.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Mar 8, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
But it is a dick move to pass them w/o permission...

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Passing ethics are a whole different ball of worms...
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Mar 8, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
It seems the broader question is what is the etiquette concerning sharing routes and cutting in when a group has a tr line on a route. The more crowded the crag, the more pressure there is to share.

Seems the real issue is the op really wasn't interested in sharing the route with anybody else. Somebody outside their group asks if they can get on the route and they agree to be polite. Turns out the guy was going to solo the route vs. top roping it.

Whether the guy was going to tr or solo is really immaterial, you can't have the beginner climbing the route when this guy is on the route, whether or not he uses your rope or goes cordless.

As to soloing, my personal feeling has been with roped or ropeless, I solo to be alone, and hence don't want to be around people or getting in peoples way.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 8, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
I remember when the Curry Company decided to run the climbing school in the late 60's, they would sometimes take people up Monday Morning Slab. At the sign out station (IIRC) they had a sign asking us not to free solo (or in those days, Third Class) when the school folks were in view. The reasons make perfect sense to me.

However, if someonse asks and I give them permission to climb ahead of me, I don't think they're rude if they do the climb quickly and safely, whether roped or not.

Of course, those who read the above carefully will realize that I said nothing about your situation. That's because I wasn't there, and, like you, am very reluctant to judge.

John

Edit:

As to soloing, my personal feeling has been with roped or ropeless, I solo to be alone, and hence don't want to be around people or getting in peoples way.

+1
EdBannister

Mountain climber
CA
Mar 8, 2010 - 06:35pm PT

a solo of some remote route,

a solitude move,
a personal experience,
a personal choice.


a solo of intersection rock,
a dick move.
tarek

climber
berkeley
Mar 8, 2010 - 06:55pm PT
Dick move because you had a rope on it. No rope up yet, would not be so dick a move, unless there were other similar routes available, then full dick factor applies. Also, if he was a local, dick move regardless. If he was visiting from far away, perhaps less dickish.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 8, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
I think part of the issue is perception. Back in the day at Josh, I'd be out there with some friends and people like Bachar, Leclinski, sometimes Yabo would cruise by and solo a route as we were getting ready to climb it. We were all about six or seven years younger than them, plus they kind of owned the place and were kind of demigods (especially Bachar), so it was kind of a cool thing, like we got a front row seat to a rad solo. It never struck me as rude or dickish. I think most people on this site, who knew them way better than I did wouldn't consider them to be dicks. Even now, in retrospect, I could try to view those acts in a different light, but my initial impressions of 'just some really good climbers cruising thru' still rings true. They got their climb in. We got our climb in. Everyone had fun. What's the big deal?
pud

climber
Sportbikeville
Mar 8, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
I think it was a DM because he had to do it while people would obviously be watching.
The freesoloists I know couldn't give a rats ass whether or not others are present while they practice.

A couple of years ago I was belaying a friend up Double Cross in Jtree. A freesoloist passed my friend while she was halfway up the route and climbed to my belay. I told him to keep moving and he did.
It was obvious to me that his climbing through our belay was an ego boost for this poor little man.

The safety issue this guy presented to our party almost cost him some dental bills.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 8, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
Free-soloing has some analogies to masturbation.
1. Almost everyone does it.
2. Some pretend that they don't do it, for the most part unconvincingly.
3. It's best if done in private, and not to excess. Those who insist on doing it in public, writing about it, or being filmed/photographed, often need to ask themselves why they're soloing.
4. Too much may amount to self-abuse, or worse. But it may still be good for you.

Free-soloing is or should be a private thing.
Chinchen

climber
Anacortes, wa
Mar 8, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
I had a guy downclimb past my 8 year old daughter while she was mid route at Jtree. Dick move.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Mar 8, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
If he cratered right in front of you you could have said, "Hey, dick, you soloed in here, you soloed up there, I guess you can just solo out of here, eh?"
Edge

Trad climber
New Durham, NH
Mar 8, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
The correct response, once the tool in question begins the route, is to call all young ladies within shouting range into view and state, in your best anthropologist voice, that "Young men of the species, having been overlooked by the 'maker,' typically demonstrate a desire to compensate for their 3" penish by attempting foolish assaults on common sense."
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Mar 8, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
That climbing out of the blue past people already climbing sh#t is definitely a dicky move. At least on short crag routes. On long routes you got to give soloists a break.If they fall on you at least you're tied in.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 8, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
Reminds me of an incident at the Scruffy Bands, Ice climbing in Little Cottonwood Cyn. It was a warm day and my pardner and I went up to do the "normal route" (1983 or so). 30 feet up were some bail screws. Just as I was starting up a guy comes up and says "can I solo up and grab that stuff? I said, sorry I am on my way. He looks at my selection of 4-5 screws and says "damn you guys got lots of pro for that thing you dont need more gear." I keep going.

As I belay my pardner from the top, I notice he is soloing the line to the right of us. Now the top of that climb ends on a slab and on a warm day it can be treacherous as there was also fresh snow on top of the slab. I notice him dinking around trying to top out...

Next thing I know I see him at the bottom, about a 150 foot ride. My pard finishes fast and we get down there to check up on him. Poor dude's leg twisted around the wrong way, grapefruit size bruise on his head amidst other things. I got to hand it him, he held it together pretty well. I stayed with him, avoiding moving him but throwing my coats on him, talking to him as my pard went for help.

He said, "glad you guys were here, that would have been a long crawl back to the road." Now, its not too long, and this guy held it together real good but it did require a stream crossing in those days. Hard to say how he would have navigated that.

I forget all the things wrong, I think ankles and legs broke, concussion, other stuff.

I know he felt kind of dumb about those remarks he made to us guys who to him, might have looked like gumbies, but it was not the time to bring it up. Taught me that when I soloed his same line a month later to do it when it was real cold and nobody was around.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
Mar 8, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
I don't know why he wanted to solo it when he did. Neither do I know why you're butt-hurt about it.



Paul_in_Van

Trad climber
Near Squampton
Mar 8, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
Not a dick move, until he lands on your head.

Agree on the poseur aspect though.

I had the same thing happen this weekend up in squamish. He asked, I said ok, he climbed and got out of our way.

Totally another scene if there is falling going on. I don't need my day ruined by some turkey. If they know what they are doing then cool in my books.

P
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Mar 8, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
+1 that this is a troll post, but I see trolling all over, and that doesn't meant that it is the case.

+1 that it wasn't a dick move.
bbbeans

Trad climber
Bozeman, MT
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
No troll. 100% true.

I am a judgmental person and thought this guy was being a bit of a dick and was curious about about whether other climbers might think the same way.

Maybe I am actually the dick for thinking that he was being a dick.

I know the soloist in a roundabout sort of way so this decision has further repercussions.

the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Mar 8, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
dick move for sure..
john hansen

climber
Mar 8, 2010 - 10:31pm PT


One time bitd , we were at at nintey foot wall and there were three or four different groups climbing , couple top ropes set up.

Three older looking guys show up and start soloing all the climbs that no one is on. Pretty impressive.

Couple days later my friend called me and said

"Dude, that was Bridwell"
WBraun

climber
Mar 8, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
Radical has it nailed.

And .... this is just another dicked up thread .......
apogee

climber
Mar 8, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
"Maybe I am actually the dick for thinking that he was being a dick."

Naah, I wouldn't say that at all. A real dick would write the guy off as a dick without any further thought. You are obviously trying to understand this situation better. Good on ya'.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Mar 8, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
I had a guy solo past my follower on The Flake (5.8 on Intersection) long ago. It was definitely a dick move, but I realized that following through on my urge to boot the dick off the ledge would have been an even bigger dick move.

Studly

Trad climber
WA
Mar 8, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
Bigus Dickus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K8_jgiNqUc
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
Sprocketville
Mar 8, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
how long did it take the jock to finish the route?

30 seconds on a 40 footer?

no big.

if he stalls out on a 30 minute climb, thats when i start throwing rocks,

depends on who it is also.

it its a famous guy, then get out the camera,

if it's joe blow jokomo, start chuckin granite.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
Sprocketville
Mar 8, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
the same sh#t happens on the slopes, you pause on some single track and some as#@&%e from hollywood has to blast by you

probably the same guy.

this type of arrogant behaviouramus was very popular in the 70's,

if someone did that, we called them a Hamburger.

hammin it up, get it?

so the patter goes, "You Hambrger, get off my route!"

so everybody practice, 1..2..3...

"you Hamburger, ...."

ok then, problem solved.


JLP

Social climber
The internet
Mar 9, 2010 - 12:02am PT
Not a "dick" - I call this sort of behavior "leg humping". Just look the other way for a few seconds, then shake it off.

James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Mar 9, 2010 - 12:49am PT
Stzzo,
When I said give them a break I was referring the possibility they didn't know someone was on the route as someone mentioned earlier. As far as the falling on you part I was kidding not trolling. I think there is a difference?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 9, 2010 - 01:01am PT
Just a little showboating.
I for one like to see it.
Plain old rock climbing gets to be same old same old, a little 'boating can liven things up.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Mar 9, 2010 - 01:58am PT
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 9, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
If you are camped out on the only 5.7 at the crag or even if there are only 2 or 3 easy climbs at the crag and your rope happenes to be on one or more of them then why would you not let someone do a quick lap while you are wankin arround smoking dope and generally wasting time.. This happenes to me a lot @ my local crag. There are only 2 quality routs that are my afternoon workout and one of them often has a top rope hanging on it. It is 5.7 and I am 200% solid on it otherwise I would not be soloing it at my ripe age. I like to get about 3 laps on both climbs a 5.6 and a 5.7 and then go back to work or what ever. This has nothing to do with showing off. I would be climbing them if you were there or not. INMOP it is a dick move to hang a top rope all day and hogg routs.

Just giveing you the other side of the equasion.
apogee

climber
Mar 9, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
"INMOP it is a dick move to hang a top rope all day and hogg routs."

That's fine & dandy, except for the fact that that's not what happened with the OP. Jess sayin'.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Mar 9, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
so much drama.

so little content.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 9, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
"Also, I had the thought..."If this guy falls right at my feet, the responsibility will be on me to treat him or find someone who can"...which I wasn't too excited about"

To be honest, I feel really uncomfortable when I see some old lady checking her pulse in the ski area locker room after a day of skiing. I'm thinking the same thing about responsibility to help when she keels over.

It's part of life. Don't go near any people, ever, if you don't want to have to help them when they start to die right there at your feet.

Dave
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 9, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
If you happen to live somewhere where there are tons of moderate routs then soling on busy one may be a dick move but if your location is limited to just a few routs them we all have to share. Some like ropes and some dont.
truclimber

Trad climber
Nevada/Washington
Mar 9, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
After a quick consenus with a buddy.

Sounds like you are pissed becuase you got showed up.

Otherwise this would not be an issue.

:)
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 9, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
did your wife think he was hot? say his name out loud when you were in bed with her that night?
Edge

Trad climber
New Durham, NH
Mar 9, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
Major dick move.

This guy is an ass. If you need to wait to ask about jumping in, then that itself is a "hey, look at me" move. As much as I would hate to see someone crater, I would love to see this tard get a permanent strain.
sac

Trad climber
spuzzum
Mar 9, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
Too many RULES!




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnGzl-OEyGE&feature=related
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Mar 9, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
Anytime anyone solos past a roped party it's a dick move.
WBraun

climber
Mar 9, 2010 - 06:43pm PT
Are you sure?
ericz

climber
Ogden, UT
Mar 9, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
Who knows?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 9, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
the situation as described resulted in a no harm no foul. right? its not as if he shat on anyones ropes or anything.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Mar 9, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
99% of the time it's a total dick move. If they are your buddies, then you can do anything you want. But if you solo up to a party and ask to pass, even soloing up to them is a dick move. What are they going to say? "No, down climb the f*#ker"? Of course they'll let you pass simply because they are freaked and want you gone.
I thought soloing was supposed to be all spiritual and oneness with the rock? Where does that come in when soloing past a party?
Soloing past a party is pretty much an egotistical dick move.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Mar 9, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
I've had people freesolo by me a handful of times on some of the moderates at the Leap. Never thought it was a Dick Move. Maybe they just wanted to get a bunch of mileage on some easy routes, which I happened to be roped up for. It's not uncommon to see those things get lapped all day long.

I did something similar a month ago at Jtree. A party was toproping the Eye. I know the Eye is super hardman rad at 5.1, but I like soloing it, I probably do it once a visit at least. One climber finished and lowered, and I asked if I could solo through, they said sure. I was totally looking to impress them with my manly 5.1 solo. I had no idea it was rude.
WBraun

climber
Mar 9, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
Hudon -- "I thought soloing was supposed to be all spiritual and oneness with the rock?"

That's what you thought/think, but is not necessarily the real truth.

You can't judge it since you ultimately don't know.

Mental speculation is not the truth ............

WBraun

climber
Mar 9, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
I'll be waiting for Coz to come free soloing up to me and give him a high five.

If it its someone I don't know then they get a high five too ....
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 9, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
Free soloing, depending on the context, can be a dick move- it also can be a last move.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 9, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
wes,if it were a chick would it be a cl*t move? i would rather get into that...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 10, 2010 - 07:25am PT
some of You guys seem to put free soloing into some kind of soul searching desperate revalation holy ground status where you can only be cool if you go off in the desert and do it alone. Maby that happens for some folks, might even happen to me on a few extreemly and increasingly rare ocasions.

For many soloing is simply a clutter free way of climbing and getting a bunch of verticle feet in without the hassels of rope, harness, gear etc. Do you call boulderes dicks because they climb without ropes?

The biggest dick move in my book is camping out all day on several climbs with a bunch of people,dogs,booze, drugs, litter and noise.
Or how about bringing a group of 20 beginners to the crag so you can make a paycheck yet no one else can get on a moderate climb that day.

I don't see the soloist who is 200% solid and polite and asks to have a turn at the only moderate climbs available as being a dick. Its just someone who wants to get some climbing in despite the fact that you have the climb tied up all day.
Stewart Johnson

climber
yo mama
Mar 10, 2010 - 10:10am PT
early eighties, west crack on daff dome.
there was three of us noobs hanging on the first pitch anchors, racking for the next pitch, when here comes john bacher soloing through, doesnt care to ask "mind if i climb through?" he just does it!
free soloists should have the right of way! please step aside!
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Mar 10, 2010 - 10:32am PT
Ask Dick.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Mar 10, 2010 - 10:59am PT
there was three of us noobs hanging on the first pitch anchors, racking for the next pitch, when here comes john bacher soloing through, doesnt care to ask "mind if i climb through?" he just does it!
free soloists should have the right of way! please step aside!

Total dick move.

Aren't there other routes around that he could have soloed?

Free soloists don't have the right of way if they are coming up behind you. You have every right in the world to tell them to wait or down climb and go do something else, go impress someone els.
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Mar 10, 2010 - 11:09am PT
wow, sure are alot of judgemental hardons on this thread. . .
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Mar 10, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
Let me be clear and honest here, I'm totally guilty of the Free-Soloing dick move. I've done if four or five times. Twice, it was no big deal, I soloed right by someone, they thought it was cool. No big deal. Once, I soloed up to a couple, a guy and a girl and they didn't say anything but I could see that they were a bit freaked. Another time, I was soloing past someone and the guy mentioned that it was unsafe and he really didn't appreciate it. I told him that I was Mark Hudon and that it was no big deal and to not worry about it. He mentioned holds breaking, me falling and involving them in my ensuing clusterf*#k. I told him to not worry about, he called me an as#@&%e, I told him to f*#k off, etc, etc...

Years later, when my ego finally grew up, I realized that he was right and that I was imposing "MY" sense of safety and "MY" sense of freedom upon them.

Total frikken dick move.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Mar 10, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
None of us has a clue what the original context was. One possibility: I'm spending a mileage day at the local crag, planning to cool-down with a quick run up a favorite moderate, two n00bs toss a tr on it, so I ask if I can get in a quick run while they are tying in-- they say, "yeah," so I run it.

This was and has been a standard practice at the N. American places best known for soloing training, from Little Smoke Bluffs to JTree, as developed by folks like Croft, Bachar, and then the rest of us hackers.

I gather that almost half the posters to this thread say that should never happen, that that practice was (in hindsight) f*#ked up, and we should end all public soloing.

F*#k that. We are way past the time when it was possible to find complete solitude at the average crag. If you can't stand to be around/below/above other folks climbing or soloing, then you'll never, ever climb a single popular summer route in the frickin Alps. I've spent way more time rescuin deckin n00bs than I ever have dealing with bad outcomes from competent soloists.

Now if the context were more nearly the one Maysho described? Then it would be a dick move.

atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Mar 10, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
Maysho, was the slab Bastille slab? Or were tr's set on the kindergarten cracks?

Last summer, some guides would rig tr's on all 3 kindergarden cracks and camp on them for hours with a group around 10-15 people. Total dick move.



Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
Green Cove slabbage BITD!
Mar 10, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
Two variables, both unknowable:

-intent of soloist
-response of TRist


You want a straight answer out of this equation?

Good luck.

Inbox will look like a bucketful of as#@&%es, one from everybody.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 10, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
I haven't chimed in in a while and I too am surprised by some of the harsh judgment being flung around. Maybe people just become more judgmental and less forgiving in their old age.

Twenty years ago I was on the NE Butt of Higher Cathedral when Werner came soloing by. The thought that he was a dick did not nor has not ever entered my mind. It was just Werner soloing by. We got out of our way as best we could so as not to mess with his mojo and that was that.

When did everyone become so uptight?
pda2540

climber
Mar 10, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
According to Urban Dictionary:

11. Dick Move (August 7, 2006 Urban Word of the Day)

Its when a guy behaves in a certain way to look better than his fellow guy friends, it might be done just to impress a gurl

===

This was a Dick Move.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Mar 10, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
So here is a real DICK move. 5 or so years ago drc, myself and the babe du jour were simuling the arches. We were hung over and started late. About 1.5 hours after we started we (a party of 3) caught a party of 2 around p6 or 7 who started 3 hours earlier. We asked if they minded if we past. They said no. THAT WAS A DICK MOVE. So we followed the a-holes.

Next time I'll happily pass right on by. Call me a dick or whatever you want but I won't hear their crys for very long as they flounder around below.

kev
Chinchen

climber
Anacortes, wa
Mar 10, 2010 - 05:43pm PT
Ian, climbing above anyone without a rope is a dick move. That pretty much sorts you. I sure dont want to be hit in the head by a 180 lb flying sack of potatoes....would you?
klk

Trad climber
cali
Mar 10, 2010 - 06:05pm PT
chinchen-- what makes you think the roped parties above you aren't coming off or trundling blocks?

when i think about nightmare scenarios on trade routes, the one that comes to mind is a roped party simul climbing-- or just poorly anchored --coming off high up on east butt or w. ridge of one of the cathedrals and cleaning off all the parties beneath them.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 10, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
205 here. but since i always free solo with a helmet i figure to head bump someone on the way down...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 10, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
Worst accident ever at my local crag was a top roper decking and breaking 21 bones. Never been a soloing accident there. I realy wish people would not top rope in my presence because if they get hurt I will have to rescue them.
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Mar 10, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
When did everyone become so uptight?


Perhaps within the past few years. As we all know, there has been an unusual number of high-profile tragedies.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Mar 10, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
KLK is right on the money.

This was and has been a standard practice at the N. American places best known for soloing training, from Little Smoke Bluffs to JTree, as developed by folks like Croft, Bachar, and then the rest of us hackers.

I gather that almost half the posters to this thread say that should never happen, that that practice was (in hindsight) f*#ked up, and we should end all public soloing.

F*#k that. We are way past the time when it was possible to find complete solitude at the average crag.

This wasn't passing a party or causing risk or harm to the folks that said "OK." Calling this incident (not some theoretical one) a dick move IS a dick move. Get real people. **


**Cranky day.



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 10, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
If you have a 3hr head start on someone and they catch you on a single day climb you should let them pass especialy if they are polite.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Mar 10, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
That it's quite selfish to knowingly force additional risk on someone just for your entertainment.

Sorry, but you do that each and every time you climb. Each time you climb, there's some risk of accident, unless you're traversing a foot off a mattress. And accidents usually entail risk to others, even if it's only SAR driving to the trailhead to find out if you've returned safely.

I've never heard of a single accident caused by a falling soloist.

This place is turning into RC.com.
Jingy

Social climber
Nowhere
Mar 10, 2010 - 08:20pm PT
I can only guess about this...


but I think he may have wanted something to poof his chest out for (or jackass move), and this is the only route he felt comfortable enough to get to the top of...

letting him do the climb was the best action, I mean, if no body was on the climb at the moment, then waiting for jackass to climb it would not kill anyone but jackass...

best thing would have been if you all sat at the bottom and gave the armchair relief of his every movement for the blind... That might have taken some of the winds from his sails...


sad but there is no way to stop jackasses once they've struck..
klk

Trad climber
cali
Mar 10, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
stzzo or ex-stzzo or whatever--

you impose risk on others each time you go to the frickin crag. folks on the climb next door might have to come over and rescue you if you deck. you may yard off a chunk of something and toss it onto onlookers. the gumbies on the route above you may drop their gri-gri onto yr head.

we have no calculus for weighing the relative risk posed by a competent soloist on easy ground versus the average party of crag gumbies. so no, you can't simply claim that anyone soloing above someone else is a "dick."

yes, passing is highly dependent on situation. but i take it that you would ban all one-day ascents of el cap (let alone speed ascents), all simo-climbing on any route likely to contain another party, and on and on. those aren't soloing, but it's not like anyone is exactly practicing low-risk climbing in those settings.

i guess we can roll out the razor wire and close off the start pitch of quicksilver and freewheelin, since there's no pro and someone might pitch off that 5.8 and deck onto one of the gumbies innocently wandering lost along the base of cath.

Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Mar 10, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
A bit of a tangent, but what surprises and annoys me more than the rope-or-no-rope question is certain people's tolerance for climbing up other people's butts.

Exhibit A: There is a conga line of parties on a route w/ no passing lane like SOY. The party in the lead is slower than the ones that follow. Everyone could chill w/ their pardner at their own happy belay and wait for the next belay to open up...after all, we all could see the clusterfinkle above us when we roped up.... or we can all sit on each other (practically in each other) at the same belay.

Exhibit B: You toss your rope down in front of me while I belay my partner up the 1st pitch of a long route with a one hour approach in the middle of about a million acres of open space. You guard your place in line by standing so close to me that I know what you had for breakfast. It sucks that we both showed up at approximately the same time, but if you stand over there, we'll let any other comers know that you're next. Promise.

Exhibit C: You are the only party at a roadside crag that is decorated like a Christmas tree with 3 star routes. Another party with the skills to do any one of a dozen routes of the same grade within a hundred yards, all of which they've done before, shows up determined to do the route that you just roped up for...and only that route. While you sketch your way through a crux as onsight as your new friends at the base will allow it to be, bellows of the virtues of the route as the ultimate training device and spiritual journey invade your ears. Your partner having correctly identified what they had for breakfast, is assured by the new friends to take his time and enjoy the pitch as they start flaking their line under his feet as he casts off.

The soloing part is only dick in and of itself if you are so sketchy that I have to look away, but I feel the same if you're using gear in similarly horrifying manner. (I realize the "I can't watch anymore" point is subjective.)
habitat

climber
grass pass
Mar 10, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
I never understood the free solo or climb hard to impress a lady thing. Has this angle or move ever gotten a guy laid?

Yes.
Stewart Johnson

climber
yo mama
Mar 10, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
well mark, we were exited that john showed us his soloing prowess, even if it was a lowly 5.8,it set the standard in our mind of pureness,and also a dislike of kneehigh gym socks and shorty shorts. dick move ? perhaps.
i like to pretend im drunk then solo something to clear the crag out.
tarek

climber
berkeley
Mar 10, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
hawkeye-damn funny.
tarek

climber
berkeley
Mar 11, 2010 - 12:15am PT
people complaining about the dick move calls (I posted as a qualified dick mover here) don't seem to realize that in potentially calling DM, one is not necessarily saying that the behavior should be forbidden, or that one who calls DM does not still, occasionally, engage in Dick Movery. Let's face it, we're all dicks sometimes, even the chicks.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Mar 11, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
This place is turning into RC.com.

No sh#t - it's getting pretty sad round here.

Go Stewie!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Redlands
Mar 11, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
Can hanging a dozen TRs on every moderate at the crag ALL DAY, then bitching when a local comes through on their solo circuit, be a dick move?

I think so.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 11, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
BINGO!!!
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Mar 11, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
I thought seeing the discussion on an actual climbing topic was fun. If you are only in the market for a mutual appreciation thread, best to skip by the ones w/ "dick move" in the title.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Mar 11, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
Melissa,

I was just bitching about the quality (or lack there of) of the posts on the old taco stand of late. I think we've beat this horse enough. Alot of us (the sensible ones) understand soloing and the others don't....Anyone can be an ass about things but if you're not an ass then soloing is fine just like TRing at a crag is fine unless you do it like an ass.

kev
nevenneve

Trad climber
St. Paul, MN
Mar 11, 2010 - 01:23pm PT
Almost got into a brawl one Mother's day because of this. Why is it people climbing 5.7 are so damned touchy about others climbing moderates ropeless. A couple of them sincerely chased me around pulling on my sleeves for the better part of an hour. Apparently I'm impolite for the unimplied responsibilities I forced on them but my docile approach to them getting schizo, and physically so at that, only harbors the depth of my ill will. Ten minutes later an out of town youth group and their mothers are asking if they can use some chalk to follow me up something loose and exposed that looked entertaining on the way to the parking lot. Never felt like like it was a dick move telling either group to watch out for rocks that might fall on their head, I didn't think things were going to work out in their favor, or for doing some easy laps in flip flops.

For my money making someone watch you do a couple pitches of overhanging offwidth to squeeze chimney with your prince albert flopping out of some pants you ripped the crotch out of sitting on a rock at the base is a good baseline for defining a dick move.
tarek

climber
berkeley
Mar 11, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
For my money making someone watch you do a couple pitches of overhanging offwidth to squeeze chimney with your prince albert flopping out of some pants you ripped the crotch out of sitting on a rock at the base is a good baseline for defining a dick move.

perfect illustration of the thread's value . Good one! Laughs are worth a lot...
klk

Trad climber
cali
Mar 11, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
DMT: I once skied THROUGH a glacier class, on Shasta. Now THAT was a DICK MOVE.

Was this before or after you ice bombed the gumbies on North Pk.?


So DMT = Dick Move, Twice?

heh
klk

Trad climber
cali
Mar 11, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
well, when i was in jtree last week, on the way out of the park i stopped off at trashcan and ran part of the circuit in the presence of top-ropers.

i'm obviously going to burn in hell for eternity.
tarek

climber
berkeley
Mar 11, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
ok, time for a t-shirt design from Ihateplastic:

"Dick Mover"
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 11, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
//well, when i was in jtree last week, on the way out of the park i stopped off at trashcan and ran part of the circuit in the presence of top-ropers.

i'm obviously going to burn in hell for eternity.//

I expect to see you there then. I wish someone had posted this thread sooner to save me from the error of my ways.
Damn this looks high

Trad climber
Temecula, CA
Nov 12, 2010 - 09:50am PT
Sung to the tune of the Ken-L-Ration dog food song.

♫ My dick’s bigger than your dick,
My dick’s bigger than yours.
My dick’s bigger cuz I soloed your route
My dick’s bigger than yours.♫ ��
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Nov 12, 2010 - 10:49am PT
bbbeans, curious as to what specific route that you were on there (Bozeman area?)



If it was at any of the local areas that I am aware of, then it was definitely a Dick Move--as there is plenty of stone around to climb solo with no one else around (to deal with the aftermath...)
go-B

climber
Matthew 25:40
Nov 12, 2010 - 11:03am PT
Goodnight ....!
jstan

climber
Nov 12, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
I never believed in resurrection. But now that I have seen it, I have to rethink the question.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 12, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
John, I consider getting out of bed in the morning my personal resurrection.
Tfish

Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
Nov 12, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
I had a free soloist help get my rope unstuck at Tahquitz, so no they aren't all dicks.

But I also had a buddy watch me lead a mellow 5.5 crack at Rubidoux and then he watched my gf clean it and so instead of him trying to learn to place gear better, he freesoloed it to be a bad ass. Thats a dick move.
orsemaj

Gym climber
SD
Nov 12, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
Hard to say; did you think he was a dick before he soloed it? We could have just been trying to speed things up for you - and thus soloed to go fasted. Was the route steep or long, if he feel would he of landed on you - would he of created any danger to you or your friends.

If you had been monopolizing the route for a long period of time, then I think that puts him in a more favorable light.

So many factors. There have been many threads on passing parties on this site. Typically, I've read into it that if you are going to pass someone you better be strong enough to solo past them. Again - consideration must be given to saftey (the fall line of both rocks and a potential detached soloist).

That said, if he called you a wanker for roping up, he was a dick. But you never indicated that he 'farted in your general direction.'
nevenneve

Trad climber
Back somewhere flat, dammit
Nov 12, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
Horse-puckey, it takes more than just soloing something. Much in the way it takes more than dropping your man purse and PBR on the curb next to a city bike to be a hipster. However, doing this in THE genuine vintage T-shirt of some seminal prog-rock band usually gets more people sizing you up as a dick then admiring your style.
westhegimp

Social climber
granada hills
Nov 12, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
Great discussion!

I never knew so many people had a problem with soloists or being passed. I have never had a problem letting a faster climber pass. When a soloist passes I am delayed exactly 30 seconds. (That's how long it takes me to make a new friend.)

In the OP, the solo guy asked if it was OK. The OP said go, so not a DM. Not even close.

I always ask climbers if they mind if I pass. I do it in a friendly way, and they always say go. So not a DM.

I am not trying to pick up your girls when I climb by. I am just having fun climbing, just like you.


Wes

:^)
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 13, 2010 - 12:00am PT
Anything can be a dick move if its made by a dick.
rich sims

Trad climber
co
Nov 13, 2010 - 02:11am PT
I thought the two guys on Royal Arches were dicks not wanting to let my little bro and I pass. Sh#t they had bivi gear and worse kept asking me if they were going the right way.
Big mistake as soon as I could say just go a little higher we passed below them. Guess i am a dick..
Dicks just another four letter word.
Hey rich Hey Dick

By and By I will be climbing at the Flatirons with my Daughter this weekend so do not solo anything by me and make my dick/ego look small.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 13, 2010 - 02:15am PT
I think Doninini pretty much nailed it. Dick is as dick does.
gonamok

climber
aging malcontent
Nov 15, 2010 - 02:39am PT
It takes a real a-hole to free solo a route somebody is climbing or getting ready to climb. Bargain basement histrionics indeed. Its ok to say "yes, I do mind if you climb it, get lost".

Letting a faster party pass is another matter. On long routes you should speed up or step aside. Me n Todd Tremble climbed the East buttress of the middle in just over an hour because these czech maniacs got right on our ass and it became America vs Czechoslovakia. Being good patriots we finished a full pitch ahead of them, but it was understood that they were gonna blow by if they could. We let a party pass us on the nose. they were fast and we were slow, so why not. They made it to camp 5 before we got to camp 4, so it was a good decision.
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Nov 15, 2010 - 06:34am PT
These soloing bitchfest threads are just a waste of mental energy. "It should be private." "You shouldn't spray." WTF? When does anyone get to decide what someone's motives should be in regards to soloing or damn near anything else? If someone posted solos on the Trip Reports, I swear that it would cause another Republican thread from people getting torqued. Why? It isn't curing cancer.

Soloing is just climbing. If it is a one pitch route with a TR dangling on it for hours, then hell yeah go do it if you want to. But if someone is on it, sure, they are on it. If nobody is actually climbing it, and it is a route that you can run up in 2 minutes, why should anyone care? I think that politeness is a virtue, and if someone is getting bent about it you should back off to be nice, but hey, people are starving in Africa!

And passing a party is always a pain. More of a pain when you are two roped teams. It is a little awkward with or without a rope. You slow down an already slow party sometimes.

If you really want to get into a soloist's head, ask Werner why he has soloed the Gripper about a thousand times. My guess is that he just likes it. I seriously doubt he was trying to get laid. When you fall in love with a route and romance her 50 times, well, taking all that time to do it roped can get sort of slow.

I dunno how people can get so worked up about climbing now that I am old enough to reflect. Hey, go have fun! Make a ton of friends! Bending your brain over someone else's actions is just mental slander. I finally reached the point where I don't like bad thoughts anymore. Not good for your soul. So just go have fun. Enjoy your day. Be happy. Don't worry too much about someone else's world, it is enough just to keep up with your own. That Wes dude up there said it well.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Nov 15, 2010 - 12:08pm PT
If it's a short/single pitch route the soloist can wait in line and get on it when it's his/her turn, just like everybody else.

If it's a multi-pitch and the soloist comes across a roped party, that party can decide if it is safe to let the soloist pass.

I would let this pass happen %99 of the time. If however I see that the soloist may cause a risk to my party, they will have to be patient and wait until that risk can be mitigated.

It's really about respect for others and good common sense.
My $.02
harihari

Trad climber
Squampton
Nov 15, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
When there are hot chicks around, my freesoloing grades go WAY up. Usually I am good for 5.4 but a pretty lady will up it to 5.6. Gets me laid constantly.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 15, 2010 - 01:23pm PT
BBB - I see no problem here.

Dude uses "easiest" route on the wall for whatever reason? No biggy.
Now, you could take this to be an affront on your masculinity, but who's to say that you judge people based on your being a man or not.

Even if this were a woman who wanted to jump in front of you for whatever reason, you should allow it.

It's no big deal.

Be prepared for the situation to change, but just know that the one who did the jumping may or may not be in full control of themselves, and if circumstances dictate another plan of action may be needed.


It seems like the more I think about it the more ok with it all you/we should be with it.

I think if you had balked, you would have looked like the dick at the crag to the first timer, and the solo dude.

Just think if you had balked and a big tense discussion ensued, which you loose, or look like the dick.. Does noob want to go climbing with you again? Probably not.

Other side: You allow solo to take a crack, he takes a fall, you turn to noob and say "That is the price you pay if you solo and fall", then render the best assistance to your ability to solo guy.

Either way, fostering climbing, and keeping the spirit of climbing going is the bigger picture I like to take.

Cheers
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 15, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
I assumed he would be using a rope

Stupid assumption. If you are concerned with his style, ask about it. I can see it now:

"Can I climb this route while you are getting ready?"
"Well, what do you think about eating Tuna?"
"Huh?"
"Well, I'm going to decide if I give a damn about you climbing this route based on your style and ethics and how you live your life."
"You don't care if I solo and fall on you guys?"
"No. Even with a rope, you might run it out then fall at the first piece of protection and kill someone. How you feel about dolphins is more important."

It's all dangerous and it's all climbing. Don't make any assumption you can't live with.

Dave
michaeld

Sport climber
Near Tahoe, CA
Nov 15, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
When a buddy and I decided to free solo some stuff at Lovers Leap on a busy fall day, we actually had to wait at the pitches while other teams were ahead of us. The good part about it was, the person belaying was good entertainment, so was watching a CDF Huey flying around dropping water on a small fire started up on the trail head.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Nov 16, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
Has a route ever in the history of all rock climbing been soloed by someone who didn't eventually tell someone about it? Please tell! I just love all these dropped stories.
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Nov 16, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
Can Free-soloing be a dick move? No. Its just a simple test to
see if you are eligible for The Darwin Award.

joshklingbeil

Trad climber
Arizona
Nov 23, 2010 - 11:39am PT
Since you let him climb it's not a dick move. It's your fault for not asking where his partner/gear was. If you would of hogged the route. Dick move. If he would have fallen. Dick move.Double edge sword.
So when I'm on some over populated Yosemite multipitch and some dude is yelling at his girlfriend belay to belay for not being able to get one of the cams out and I untie from my belay and climb over to help her get the cam out. Dick move or dick mode?
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