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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 26, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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Not if your interest (your value) is higher education.
It's time all public schools taught Comparative Religions. Then our kids wouldn't be so theologically illiterate. And they wouldn't grow up to be such theologically illiterate adults.
Dont Ask, Don't Tell was bad policy in the military. So is Separation of Church and State in public schools.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 26, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
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Couldn't disagree more. Today's kids need to learn subjects based on facts not myths.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 26, 2010 - 03:34pm PT
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i'm all for people celebarating what they believe, on their own time, in their own space, and I think studying comparative religions, as an academic subject(!) is a good idea.
But,
there will not be a religious authority (me, the school, etc) biased, curriculum in my classroom, as long as I am a teacher! I owe the kids and the world, more than that. It would be decadent, and It just wouldn't be honest!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
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I'm surprised Donini.
Today's kids need to learn subjects based on facts not myths.
Agreed!
Aughh, I'm out of time. But...
Sometimes to solve a problem you have to lean into it, take it on, not turn away. In other words, reverse course when one strategy isn't working.
Aughh, gotta go!
EDIT 12:40p Cragman- Good for you on the Pirate. But when it comes to belief in the 21st century, you sound like a broken record and your naivete shows.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 26, 2010 - 03:45pm PT
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His system is juiced. . .
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 26, 2010 - 03:46pm PT
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I'm all for the separation of School and State.
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pc
climber
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Feb 26, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
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Good idea so long as it's part of their mythology studies.
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 26, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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Really, they don't teach comparative religion anymore?
I'm a strong church/spearation supporter, but you can't teach history or social studies without understanding a few basic teachings of various major religions.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Feb 26, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
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Comparative religions? Maybe in high school. Definitely in college.
Before that, kids are too easily influenced and not capable of critical enough thinking to handle it.
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Feb 26, 2010 - 05:19pm PT
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Better to study Math, Science and critical thinking than Angels, Devils and Virgins....Leave religion to the zillions of churches.
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Peggy-o
Social climber
Kingsburg ca
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Feb 26, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
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Religion has no place in my science classroom. I teach theory based on evidence not faith. I agree an elective course of comparative religions would be good but who has time with our "testing fever"?
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 26, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
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I agree that it should be taught to a point. I also agree with the person above who said it should be taught as Mythology. Problem is there would be someone saying "No this is true" to everything in the class. Its just not right. To me thats brainwashing at an early age.
If you said in class "Some people believed that this man Jesus was killed and then resurrected. After a certain period of time it was written about, then those writings changed hundreds of times over the years including the removing of some which either were contradictory or did not follow the current feelings of the time. It is said that the writings were done by people who had heard it from god who is the fictional father of Jesus, such as Zues is the fictional father of Hercules. There were no cameras or televisions so everything of the time went by word of mouth so proving something that happened at that time is nearly impossible. The book they wrote is called the Bible and along with other great mythological writings such as The Illiad and teachings of Buddha includes many great stories."
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 26, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
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With seperation of Church and State there is no problem with a course on World Religions or Comparative Religions in public schools. You are not advocating one over another, and as long as you are respectful to all, there is no problem. Many Social Science classes do something to this degree. My wife teaches social science in the HS and you can't get away from it. Why would you want to? It's good stuff.
Yes, some High Schools teach it; I would think all Colleges do. My WR class in college was an awesome but hard class.
I would recommend everyone take such a class, even if you are an atheist, because you will learn about the world around you. When you travel you will have a better appreciation for their culture, and less likelyhood of offending anyone.
If I were to take a trip to India, I certainly would grab my world religions text (still have it) and study up on Hinduism. If I were to travel to Saudi Arabia I would study up on the 7 Pillars of Islam etc.
So why wouldn't you World globe trotting Big Wall/Alpinists not want to do this?
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Feb 26, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
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theologically illiterate?
What's so bad about that?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 26, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
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theologically illiterate?
What's so bad about that?
Because you are then also a literary and historical illiterate.
But then, they don't teach history or literature any more either.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
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A distinction is being lost here. On some.
It's important to distinguish between (a) the separation of church and state in government and (b) the separation of church and state in public education.
In Government: Separation is good.
In Public Education: Separation is bad.
Today's kids need to know that Jehovah (the God of Moses, the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims too) was a local Mesopotamian God, one of many.
By high school it's too late for many. Because once this ancient theology is in the blood, it's nigh impossible to get it out. Such is the power of this appealing narrative.
FortMental- Thanks for the link. Read first page, will read more later. So there would be controversy. Things would be crazy for a time. But out of that we'd have progress in bringing innovation to "matters of faith" long in need of it.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 26, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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Yes, as long as it isn't presented with an overriding agenda. That, Is what is being talked about. and I don't think that distinction, painfully obvious as it is, has been lost, here
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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Richard Dawkins (evolutionary biologist, science educator) believes it’s time to re-evaluate the long-standing policy also. Because times have changed. Because it's a new climate compared to 100 or 200 years ago.
Dawkins:
“It’s educationally valuable that children be taught about religion. -Provided you teach children about religious systems as opposed to teaching them a (specific) religion.”
“You should teach them there are people called Christians who believe this and Muslims who believe that and Hindus who believe the other… then you can look them over and choose. Or choose none of them.”
“I think a proper education in comparative religion would sound the death knell of religion. Probably even more surely than a proper education in science.”
___
Jaybro- I know the distinction wasn't lost on you. I remember we're both J Campbell fans. My suspicion is he'd be for it: comparative religious studies in public schools-- emphasis on comparative-- even in elementary schools when kids are most curious and inquiring.
Of course I'm referring to a comparative course where students would learn about many religions, not just one or three-- each of a different God or group of Gods, too. And without any "agenda."
And of course things could and would get messy, snafu-ed in spots, some counties, e.g., because of humanity being all too human, because somebody tried to campaign for a particular rel and another objected. So a "default" could be a solution. The "default" might be straight up reading from an ol' fashioned World Book Encyclopedia set under a number of religious entries. Till cooler heads prevailed and things got back on track. My set (c1971) is pretty good, pretty unbiased straight across.
At least this would be something. Infinitely more than what many public schools have now. Which is zero.
__
Wes- care to share any childhood memories you have of the "Moronism"? One or two, maybe?
I don't know, that video link you posted is kinda scary to me, knowing the content behind the melody. (Somebody should close caption it in English. Just to know the full story.)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 27, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
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Cross-posting here for obvious reasons:
HFCS,
If you ever become a public school teacher be warned, like I said before, the Seperation of Church and State in public institutions cuts both ways, and I support it.
You can not advocate one religion over another and you can not make fun or belittle anyone's religion. Could you handle doing that?
You can talk about all of them though and discuss them openly in context and explain them as the followers would and as they believe their faiths to be, obviously not in a science classroom since it would be out of context, but in a social science classroom no problem.
I do not noramlly link to FOX News so please forgive me everyone!:
Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,345274,00.html
Student Sues Over Creationism!
http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=c9045629645f002bdeeb
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 03:45pm PT
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I would "go in" expecting controversy. I'd lean into it and take it on. (Like big wall climbing.) I'd be willing to work through it, through the difficulties, in the interest of final results.
Attitude is everything.
Important life strategy: Mix it up. Despite the pains. Mixing it up can break a stagnancy. Mixing it up often leads the good ideas to surface, the bad to sink.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Feb 27, 2010 - 04:12pm PT
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education is government for starters, in most instances in the U.S., no?
teaching systems of religions rather than teaching a single religion would be impossible to remove the biases inherent in personal teaching.
a virtualized or media curriculum could be provided without bias, and agnostic and atheist positions would need to be taught in this new world order.
but discussion will devolve into 'belief' states in the classroom, which aren't verifiable independent of the user. someone will get indignant at the thought that their belief is not being understood by others and a miscommunication will be spun up by the media outlets, then a lawsuit will be filed, and school districts will pull the whole thing until the courts tell them what to do, and even then it will get relitigated.
I'm an optimist, but there are a lot of religious folks who wouldn't want other religions to be 'taught' to their children.
The whole notion of teaching children and what they are exposed to, is fraught with difficulty from as back as the the time of Plato.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
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Skeptimistic wrote-
instill a healthy skepticism of religion and reinforce social open-mindedness in your male children
Now if only we could export this prescription to the Middle East, too, it might save us a future war or two.
Thanks for the link. I thought it portrayed more than a few kernels of truth.
Munge- Separation of church and state in government is a good idea in that it keeps the government from setting up any official state religion.
But growing numbers think it's bad policy when it's applied to public education because it contributes to children's ignorance about the world's many religions.
If it were bad policy, it wouldn't be the government's first.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
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Just to be clear: We're not talking about prayer in public school. We're not talking about church or sermon in public school. Right? We're talking about teaching a Comparative Religious Studies course in public school.
Now I know you "higher education" people know what I'm talking about. But I have the feeling that's not everybody.
Preaching religion in school and teaching ABOUT religions (different religions) in school are different things.
The idea is not: Little Christian soldiers get to pray before the loudspeaker on Mondays, Little Muslim soldiers Tuesdays, Little Sikhs Wednesdays, etc. That is NOT the idea in a Comparative Studies course.
Jim- the 1960's practice you alluded to would be inappropriate in a 2010 Comparative Studies course. (As you probably already know. Tho I don't know your beliefs about religions.)
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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As a teacher and a taxpayer, I think there should be a separation of Education & State! Let's face it, the gov't is decadently "screwing the pooch" on this one!
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
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Thank you el-cap pics.. my thoughts exactly
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
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Jim- I don't know you so I'll just comment on your comment. I'm not going to apologize for being a believer in higher education. I believe in higher education. I worked hard for mine. I distinguish between a standard education and higher education. Do you? With the latter being the more desirable.
Higher education can also refer to college-level. And I'm willing to bet those who have attended higher ed in college might be quicker to grasp what comparative means. Maybe. That was the intended usage above.
As far as your other words (1) poseur and (2) Christian fundamentalist- I don't get those at all.
EDIT I'm willing to ack there might be some miscom, here, Jim since we don't know each other- So what are your stances on (1) prayer in school (2) teaching about an array of religious models in school (3) and (as a kind of litmus feeler) teaching evolution in school?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
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Alright, I've researched you now...
Jim wrote-
A Brazilian wax job.
That's NOT the worst thing on a woman's body! We're just going to have to agree to disagree. On a few things.
EDIT I'm a fan of C. Hitchens. I only wish he had a lot more science under his belt like his three compadres. Then his "erudition" (I'm just playing) would be even more effective.
You're right, too, you don't know me. If you're being serious and you're not sure I'm not a fundamentalist (!!) check my posts on the religious-irreligious threads. Quite a history there.
I think we're all posers when you get down to it, we all want notice, validation, to some degree (in addition to adventure and fun times) on this fleeting stage called life.
EDIT 8:40p Thanks Jim. I suspect we just got off on the wrong foot. My background's in science and engineering. I'm an evolutionist. Hard-core. Certainly I'm no Abrahamic supernaturalist- you can take that to the bank!
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Feb 28, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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Jim:
Where did you learn of that rule?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 28, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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Religious or so-called spiritual concerns, while not at all the same things, are nevertheless pretty slippery merchandise for a lot of people who only have a sense for quantifiable information, everythying else being imagined, unreal, hooey, and so forth. Ergo it seems unlikely that any manner of educational board would ever be able to decide what a religious class would even entail. Only the wholly ignornat would suggest that genuine spirituality is basically the pimping of myths, beliefs and distorted history, but arriving at a concensus would be a long shot seeming that few would have done the work to know.
My sense is that most things spiritual are somewhat like wall climbing or poetry or music - certainly not for everyone, each requiring a certain inate appitude to even begin to grasp what the core issues are actually about. As such, they are probably questionable subject material for primary education, though a little practical instruction in yoga, mind control, emotional detachment techniques, and meditation are things I sure could have benefited from had they been offered to me as a kid.
JL
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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HFCS,
"Biopractic" sounds like a "New Religion" perhaps a New-Age Religion.
(Nothing is new under the Sun)
Perhaps you can start a New Church, "The First Church of Biopractics" and you can be its founding member.
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