Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 90 of total 90 in this topic |
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 30, 2005 - 12:04pm PT
|
It's bound to happen. Let it happen in one place for the most part, this little thread.
Tom Delay was indicted...Discus
Since I started it, I won't weigh in yet.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Hootervillian
climber
Lickskillet, AL
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 12:17pm PT
|
It would almost appear Tom DeLay (not that I condone money-laundering and conspiracy) and Lynndie England have something in common. Both really do not belong on the 'Front' page. Right now I would like to know a little more about HCA and those 'distinguished gentlemen' the Frist's.
"Republican senator Chuck Grassley (R-IA), asserted that the $1.7 billion deal hardly covered the awesome fraud perpetuated by HCA."
"I had to badger the Justice Department to see the math in this case,” Grassley remarked. "At the last minute, the Justice Department agreed to show my investigators why this settlement was the best the government could do. There's no way to know exactly how much HCA pocketed. This case is so complicated, and so huge, that no one will ever know exactly how much HCA took. This case is troubling because it shows how one company, with unbridled greed, systematically defrauded the government's health care programs."
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Family_company_of_Senate_leader_made_0929.html
Ya know FT, you have been right all along. I wish those liberals would quit their whining and let Senator Grassley speak.
"WARNING- Objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear" Mountain Mans Lexus
|
|
can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 12:46pm PT
|
ahhh, ain't the hubris of power a crazy thing? When I saw Delay had been indicted it made my day. Maybe the day of Machiavellian politics in America is drawing down just a wee bit. Too bad none of em will serve the time they so richly deserve. Well at least in the type lockup schmos like us would get, you know the one, with Bubba as a cellmate, and not a tennis raquet in sight.
fattrad, on the other hand, might still get to meet Bubba, but that's only because he hangs out on ST.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 12:53pm PT
|
Politics & Politicians: …. diplomacy, fraud, cheating, these are the general qualification of the Politician.
And still we spend our hours analyzing their qualities.
Those qualities are the direct reflection of ourselves.
|
|
arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 01:09pm PT
|
"I attend several briefings every year put on by Attorneys on how best to circumvent campaign finance laws."
Sounds like YOU are part of the problem. Our current special interest money driven political climate allows people with little ethics or honesty endless oportunities.
Campaign finance laws are certainly not perfect, but generally they are enacted to prevent ethical and criminal abuse of our democratic system. 'Circumventing' them goes against the spirit of the law if not the letter.
|
|
the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 01:10pm PT
|
Delay reminds me of Bin Laden. "God is on my side so I'm justified to do any evil, unethical acts, because in my eyes my cause is just." What they don't realize is that it doesn't matter what 'side' you're on, it's your actions which are right or wrong.
As bad as the democrats are, this is just another example of how we need to clean out the republican majority and give democrats control for a while to undo some of the damage the republicans are causing for average people in our country. Then after 8 years we'll need the republicans back in there before the democrats screw things up too badly for their special interests.
It's a good thing presidents can only serve 2 terms.
The whole gutting of the endangered species act is another disgusting expample of the greed of the current republicans overriding the common good of all Americans. They're a great party if you're a rich, greedy, evangelical who doesn't care about common goods or our posterity. I like to think that there are good people in the party, like McCain, but he seems to be following lockstep with the rest of them these days. I guess if he didn't their current climate of forcing their agenda through intimidation and reprisals would force him out.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 01:12pm PT
|
Fattrad it was not meant towards yourself as a personal attack or anyone else. As you can see I also placed myself into the loop by the use of:
” Those qualities are the direct reflection of ourselves.”
Only a fully liberated soul is free from the propensity of cheating and fraud.
We are not. We not only will cheat and make mistakes, But we are force to do these.
Best regards, Werner
|
|
Hootervillian
climber
Lickskillet, AL
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 01:14pm PT
|
fattrad,
Any thoughts as to the timing of this 'Apparently, legal scandel'?
Why would those "liberals" front something so easily dismissable?
I sure hope this isn't another one of the Dan Ratheresque™ liberal schemes again.
Hey Fet,
You should see the Real Estate arm of the LDS.
"Fill Dodger Stadium it would." Yoda
|
|
smidogg
Trad climber
berkeley
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 01:19pm PT
|
Let's also not forget that Rove and Libby might be in a bit of a Pickle here as well.
Here is the full take down list
Delay
Frist
Rove
Libby
Kinda hard to spin that these are not isolated incidences, not representative of the general methods and practices of the republican party.
Nov 2006 is starting to look pretty darn good.
|
|
Hootervillian
climber
Lickskillet, AL
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 01:29pm PT
|
...and the 'bigger than Rove' pickle.
The way I read it, KR does not have the security clearance.
All leads point to the top...more? at 5pm™...
..as to the Sen. DeLay issue...."..Me, I don’t give a sh-it.." WBraun
|
|
Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 02:29pm PT
|
Fattrad said ". . .future Gates' generations .."
not unless they're as bright as dad. he's giving it away almost as quickly as he's making it. he's also a major proponent of NOT eliminating the estate tax. i've also heard him say that he told his kids they shouldn't plan on anything being left when he's gone.
|
|
arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 02:40pm PT
|
"Otherwise Bill Gates and future Gates generations will buy the presidency."
Bill Gates buys a president
Exxon/Mobil buys a president
Little or no difference to me -- I can't afford a president. Hell, I can't even afford to get a town alderman to shine my shoes.
"McCain Supporter (Best we could get McCain/Feingold Bill)"
Best we could get with every lobbyist and special interest in the country and their bought-and-paid-for allies in public office fighting against it... possibly. But best that we need? Far from it.
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 05:46pm PT
|
The problem is fundamental to the genesis. If all those neocons and fundamentalist fanatics who were created 6,000 years ago had been given more time to evolve, they might have developed thinking abilities and become rational humans.
|
|
seamus mcshane
climber
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 06:56pm PT
|
Funny, but I love the anonymous quote from the Revolutionary War regarding Patriotism,
"A country must always be willing to protect itself FROM it's government." That's what the Framers thought a Patriot should be.
My how things have changed in this era of Bush/Fascism.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 09:04pm PT
|
There are two kinds of Republicans: millionaires and fools.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 10:23pm PT
|
There are two kinds of Republicans: millionaires and fools.
Then as a correlary there must be only two types of Democrats.
Poverty pimps and whores.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 10:33pm PT
|
TGT:"Then as a correlary there must be only two types of Democrats. Poverty pimps and whores."
Got a problem with whores, TGT?
Enforcing "your morality™" on others? You kind of sound like an Islamic fundamentalist, if so....
Jeffie, Madi, Jay and pretty much all the other founding fathers save for Adams (he was awesome at "GOD-offs™") are against you on this one...
Read that Constitution™...
|
|
Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2005 - 10:34pm PT
|
"Otherwise Bill Gates and future Gates generations will buy the presidency. "
Who buys the Presidency now, Fatty?
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
426! I'm about as far from a "fundamentalist" as you can get.
The point was that the Democrats play themselves as poverty pimps and prey on the constituencies that then become their dependents (analog to the pimp / dependent=whores)
That you totaly missed that is your problem, not mine.
No value judgements either intended or implied.
Your defensiveness does ,however produce some curiousity.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
Somebody had a post here moments ago that they must have removed. it made some general inferences about poiticians that I'd have to agree with.
Sewage systems are esential to the functioning of our society.
So are politicians.
The only crucial decision is picking the ones that are the least disfunctional.
The Dems are the Whigs of the 21st century, a disfunctional and irrelivent bunch. The Republicans well on their way to becoming the Democrats of the 1840's, or 1970's so secure in their power they don't see what's coming.
Something is going to change, and I don't think either present major party is going to like it.
|
|
bringmedeath
climber
la la land
|
|
If I had ever heard of Tom Delay I may give a sh#t...
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2005 - 11:17pm PT
|
Both parties are bought and paid for by money, with only minor differences in where the money comes from.
Both parties have suckers that they care about because they need their votes. Their loyalty to the suckers is only skin deep.
For the GOP it's the religious right. The GOP has no real intention of outlawing abortion which would create a backlash for them.'
For the Dems it's the poor and labor. They're not a top priority either.
What makes the Bush administration much worse than usual GOP or Dem administrations is the arrogant, naked, and blatant means that they use to serve the richest of the elite with no regard to human life, human rights, the environment that we all live in, or the long term viability that your kids will have to make a living in.
A related or unrelated fact: The richest 500 people in the world have more money that the poorest 3 billion put together.
Peace
Karl
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
TGT-Touché. You're right, you don't sound "fundamentalist" at all....
But really now, there's someone dirtier than "Turd Blossom"?
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/usa/karl-rove/
Plz...do tell.
I disagree with your assessment; to me both parties are in bed together (aka Republicrats/Demicans), will retain their power, and are an anathema to us all...
But I hope that you're right; as a registered Indy for my life, I don't cater much to the "least dysfunctional" choice...
|
|
Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
|
|
"If I had ever heard of Tom Delay I may give a sh#t... "
You also might be considered a participating member of a republic.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
TGT:
"Something is going to change, and I don't think either present major party is going to like it."
We can only hope!
|
|
ralph_teh_klimber
climber
ralph town
|
|
"Sorry Tom we are going to have to cut you losse and allow the God-less liberal media and court system go after you, so George, Dick and I can continue on with Jesus's plan of assimilation of the non-believers. I hope you can understand as not one of us is bigger then the sum. With John on the bench now we should be able to continue our plight against the niggers, spics and other godless heathens."
-K Rove.
|
|
Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
|
|
At no point have I EVER referred to heathens as 'godless.' I do not appreciate being misquoted.
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
"The DA bringing the charges is an idiot and is doing this for political hack reasons only. Oh, and also to have fodder for the movie being made about him. A cameraman is following him around during these grand jury charades.
Last week, he convened a GJ and they told him to pound sand. He then went to another one, also in their last day, and rammed through the first indictment. Ooops, he then realized that the indictment was bogus and not valid and so with that indictment going nowhere, he grabbed a new GJ on Monday and in their first five hours on the job, got them to indict again. Funny thing though, he was indicted on a violation for something that was NOT ILLEGAL AT THE TIME HE DID IT. Another bogus charge. Then the jury foreman says in a radio interview that he had his mind made up on Delay's guilt BEFORE HEARING THE EVIDENCE! He said it was because of some conservative ads that he had seen on TV that irritated him.
The people that jumped on the "Yay! We got DeLay!" bandwagon are going to look pretty foolish when this is over with."
We now return you to your regular programming on Fox TV.
|
|
0uch!
climber
|
|
Another well reasoned, well thought out and well-presented response by me.
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
So Jody, it appears by a number of your posts that the conservatives, especially the neo-cons, can do no wrong in your eyes. I can't believe these are the same eyes that have such a talent for photography. When do you decide to put the blinders on and take them off? And when do you decide to wear the rose-tinted glasses and to take them off? Just wondering.
And from a native of the 'commie state', California, I think it is the greatest state in what is a great country. But then I would since I was born and raised there and not just a blow in. If you don't like it so much, why live there? Oh, a nice cushie state job. I guess though you can ask a similar question of me: if I love California and America so much, how come I live abroad?
Maybe someday over a coffee or pint we can both answer these questions, and maybe get in some climbing when I am back in shape.
Edit
Just jibing about the cushie state job. On macualted's 'Jody pulled me over' thread, I posted that I think law enforcement is a thankless job, but I am glad somebody does it, otherwise there'd be anarchy (unless your great leader - not mine - stops elections, banishes the Constitution and sets up a totalitarian theocratic state like he'd love to, however unlikely). Cops may not be perfect but they are probably the best solution to date.
Also, as I have posted several times on different threads, America was made great by both conservatives and liberals - but not fundamentalists, extremists, neo-cons and neo-libs.
|
|
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
The Economist has a good article about the potential fracturing of the the conservative movement, initiated in part by criminal accusations of Delay, First, and Rove, and further shaken by the government's ineptitude after the recent Hurricanes.
It lists the factioning of:
Small government conservatives vs. big gov't conservatives
Conservative of faith vs. conservatives of doubt
insurgent conservatives vs. estabishment conservatives
Business conservatives vs. religious conservatives
Neo-cons vs. traditional conservatives
pretty good reading...
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
I remember a time when many people who called themselves conservative were a group of diverse political persuasions. Small businessmen and people who believed in individual responsibility, hard work, and saving for setbacks. That was before religion became little more than a political tool, foisted on a dumbing down public, susceptible to the big lie.
It was also a time of great hypocrisy. The robber barons were constantly striving to regain the power they wielded before the labor movement became a real force for change. The south was part of the Democrat Coalition, simply because the Democrats were willing to overlook the de facto slavery that persisted.
Now, conservative has come to mean fanatic neocons who would bring the country down before yielding anything. The sons of the old Confederacy and the robber barons are in control of the power base, with a certified nutcase at the top.
It's not hard to fool people who see religious icons in cheese sandwiches and believe in the boogerman.
The White House should be called the Boogerhouse.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
This business about Delay is very troubling.
However, not quite for the reasons that most discuss.
Let me lump in Frist.
I don't care so much about personal weakness, and attempts to enrich oneself....that is human nature. It is troubling when it involves violations of public trust, and is worthy of action then.
However, the troubling thread with these two is the attempt to basically subvert the (small d) democratic processes of our republic.
Delay's actions, setting aside any money issues, are to subvert the voting choices of Texas voters, and pushed through a redistricting scheme that had only the purpose of gerrymandering districts to put in an extra group of republican congressmen, increasing the power of republicans in Washington.
This has nothing to do with whether republicans or democrats are in power, it has to do with basic processes of government being subverted.
Frist is the author of the "nuclear option". He has figured out a way to subvert the process of a strong minority being able to exert influence in the Senate, though the traditional filibuster. He is attempting to change the "rules" that have worked for two centuries, to consolidate power that is just over a majority (the Republicans do NOT hold 90% of the Senate seats)
These are attacks on our basic democratic institutions.
In California, we are about to vote on an initiative generated from the Republican Governor, which will create more representative districts, instead of the gerrymandered (by both parties) districts that are so safe, that basically none are contested, statewide. To me, this seemed slam-dunk. I think that we should have representative districts, objectively created.
HOWEVER, that is not the motivation behind the action. THAT is to change the system to create more opportunity for Republican politicians to capture offices in this strongly Democratic state.
So, another change in the rules to create an advantage for a party.
THAT is the real threat to our country. That is why these men are dangerous. It is not conservativism, but rather insurrection, that is the danger.
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
Ken M, so true
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
Ken M. You are a savvy guy. These are real steps toward the tyranny of the Neocons. They will soon have the Supreme Court packed with Neocon politico/religious fanatics. A court that already delivered that cretin into the White House in the coup in 2000.
These are indeed assaults on the institutions of democracy, but since we have a neocon justice department and a sleeping public, I don't look for much to stop the insane juggernaut.
People will still vote the same idiots back into office in the midterms. This nation is stumbling around like a drunk on skidrow. Like a drunk, we will have to hit rock bottom in the gutter before there is any hope of change. We may very well not survive the stupidity we are caught up in.
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
America, the land of the free and free speech.
I am sure most of you heard about this but here's a link to the story anyway (from the Irish Examiner):
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/story.asp?j=12109068&p=yzyx9yzz&n=12109182&x=
Wasn't there a case like this a couple of years ago about some guy getting booted out of a shopping mall over a t-shirt?
Edit
For Jody below - I didn't mention anything about the First Amendment, I was thinking more along the lines of the spirit of our great country, the spirit that a person has the freedom of speech and expression (as long as it doesn't incite hatred etc) I mean does a t-shirt really incite anything except perhaps the indignation (self-righteous anger) that some people may express over seeing a t-shirt that 'offends' them. Where exactly is the line drawn? think about Jody, think really hard.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
The pile of sh#t the Rove got himself into is getting deeper. It appears that an indictment might be coming.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
The right to free speech is not unlimited, but limited! It has restrictions, just as we do not have unlimited freedom.
This is the world of duality and limitations and it is not unlimited.
|
|
Jy
Trad climber
California
|
|
I would say that DeLays actions are troubling also, except for the fact that they werent. Almost all politicians are corrupt, and usually the more powerful (and the more conservative) are the most corrupt. It was surprising though to actually see something happen about it.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
I guess now we're getting into Carlin's "7 Dirty Words" spiel.
Or "I know ----- when I see it."
Jody, I take it you're not much of the laissez-faire, pro-business conservative, then...
Curious about FT's thoughts....
Was it George Orwell or perhaps Dick Van Patten who said "If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they don't want to hear"...
...
Interestingly, Federalist Paper No. 8/9 deal with this very topic; the limiting/loss of civil and political liberties in times of war.
“Here we are trying to free another country and I have to get off an airplane … over a T-shirt. That’s not freedom.”
She's right, from our founding father's view....too bad so many (individuals and businesses) have lost that view.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
“Here we are trying to free another country and I have to get off an airplane … over a T-shirt. That’s not freedom.”
Well I don’t like your reply to this thread so I’ll go over to your house and blow your ass away with my big bazooka gun. Then the cops come and take me away, but I’ll scream this is a free country and I can do anything I want.
I’ve been jived, I thought it’s a free country …….as they take me away …….
Edit; maybe we should debate the merits of freedom in another thread?
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
Jody:"Well, we should just allow pornographic pictures on T-shirts in public then. Where do you draw the line? "
I dunno, where do you draw it? Personally, I give people the freedom to do what they want...
It's called "freedom"...
Get it?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Ok I'm coming over now with my big ass bazooka cannon.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
Ah, argumentum in terrorem.
S'okay, 10 out of 10 people die, maybe it's my time.
But Jody or someone of the like might have to put the clamps on.
(Ack, now I've done my own argumentum in terrorem)...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
426
"I give people the freedom to do what they want..."
You can't give squat, 426 you're a nobody, just like the rest of us.
We do not have that power.
Only someone who is absolutely free can possess such power.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
You're right in a manner; let me clarify.
On that plane, I wouldn't be the person to complain about anyone's garment or even a lack thereof. Even if they wore a "Pro-War, Pro-Jesus" shirt that "offended" me.
Who am I to say what is "pornography" for example? Such things are subjective-and with a mostly "libertarian" philosophy, I value political and personal freedoms highly.
To each their own, I guess, would be more apropos. Each of us has our own "†" to bear...
Edit: Mr Braun: "maybe we should debate the merits of freedom in another thread?" I agree.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
But this begs the question, "which morals"?
Read the Federalist Papes or the Constitution, it's certainly not "Christian" morals.
Define "society crumbling"...
and I think we've been here before(?)
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
426
Don't bring in "Christian morals" and don't try to put words in people’s mouths.
There was no mention of "Christian" in Jody’s original post.
He only said moral.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
Then whose morals?
Read Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, ratified by most of the founding fathers.
Read the Federalist Papers. 588 pages and not one mention of Christianity or God...
here, I'll help you
http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
Do you know why the first (non-native European) people came over here? Hint: it's got a lot to do with religion....
Define "crumbling society" while you're at it....
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
ROFL-Nice use of the "Chewbacca" defense.
Yeah, that's a real logic fallacy...related to a 'red herring'
Meanwhile, good cop (I guess on this thread), you haven't really defended your statement.
Whose morals? Yours?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
When God consciousness is lost so then are morals. It’s impossible to leave out God. It can’t be done, and if you try then society will crumble sooner or later .
And I guarantee it to the hilt.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
Not what Jefferson thought:
"It does me no harm whether a man believes in 20 gods or none at all, it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
Not what Paine thought:
"My own mind is my own church."
Sorry, I gotta defer to the founding fathers on this one, the "new federalist" I am.
I'm not even sayin' that you should; just sayin I should...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
You're welcome :-)
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
Nice red herrings; they are just being tossed out all over...
You could start with the irony of your sanctity of life statement; that means bombing a city of 3 million people (Baghdad), eh?
Or how about bombing abortion clinics to defend "sanctity of life"...
Please, parse those out...
I'm a little afraid of 'your' morals...you seem a little repressive to a lover of "freedom" like myself...
Why do you hate our founding fathers so much?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
426
Who’s bombing 3 million people (Baghdad)? Not Jody either, but people of all different consciousness are involved including Jeffersonian new federalists.
Where is Jody bombing abortion centers? Only a psycho does that in the name of religion.
Me, 426, I’m a little afraid of your blanket statements that try to lead some one to some place where YOU want to put them.
|
|
yo
climber
NOT Fresno
|
|
Nearly every of us human beings has a sense of morality. Jody claims to be sole possessor of Morality™.
Jody is generally amiable. Upon donning his Morality Man™ cape, however, he is consistently condescending and author of the three most vile ideas ever posted on ST.
As I stroll through Morality Mart™, I see your name brand Morality™, and it's expensive and no more effective than the generic brand. I boycott Morality™. Keep up the sales job, whiteboy, but I'm full. I'm full up to here with morality and it's delicious.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
I'm sorry to say you are wrong yo. Jody is not making any claims to be sole possessor of Morality™. He is merely giving a transparent description coming from the lord himself the Supreme Being, God.
Look up the two in the dictionary my friend (God and Supreme Being)
Even in Microsoft word "spell" it wants you to capitalize “being” when in relation to Supreme.
In this age, the institution of marriage will degenerate. Indeed, already a marriage certificate is sometimes cynically rejected as "a mere piece of paper." Forgetting the spiritual purpose of marriage and misunderstanding sex to be the goal of family life, lusty men and women directly engage in sexual affairs without the troublesome formalities and responsibilities of a legal relationship. Such foolish people argue that "sex is natural." But if sex is natural, pregnancy and childbirth are equally natural. And for the child it is certainly natural to be raised by a loving father and mother and in fact to have the same father and mother throughout his life. Psychological studies confirm that a child needs to be cared for by both his father and his mother, and thus it is obviously natural for sex to be accompanied by a permanent marriage arrangement. Hypocritical people justify unrestricted sex by saying "it is natural" but to avoid the natural consequence of sex—pregnancy—they use contraceptives, which certainly do not grow on trees. Indeed, contraceptives are not at all natural. Thus hypocrisy and foolishness abound in the age of Kali.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
LEB, you state:
"Everyone has a right to his or her version of morality providing that it does not impinge on another's rights."
So you support a pro-choice position (since you have just stated that rather clearly)
Unfortunately, the group that Jody appears to represent and defend, *defines* morality as following their point of view.
("the morals that keep society from crumbling are the ones I am talking about. Respect for sanctity of life, respect for marriage, respect for the act of sex...do I need to go on?")
They do NOT believe that others should be free to follow their own points of view, as that is destructive to our society....and thus, should be legislated. Legislating morality is a VERY worrisome viewpoint.
Further, Jody states "War sucks, but when people die in war it is not murder. When people fly airplanes into office buildings, THAT is murder." Very troubling. I'm sure the jews who died in WWII are comforted by your viewpoint. I'm sure the American prisoners are too. Good to know that if John McCain had been killed, instead of only tortured, that would have been *just too bad.*
But then, you admonished someone else not to paint with a broad brush. Perhaps you should not, either, or stop preaching about how people argue, when you do exactly the same thing.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
While I stroll through Morality Mart™, picking off it's variegated shelves, but never really getting used to the taste, I can't help but think that Jody, you really do hate the idea of a secular America. You hate the ideas posited by Madison, Hamilton and Jay.
Werner, you know your analogy is absurd, wearing a t-shirt and blowing up stuff with a bazooka is not equivocable. And we can talk Pascal's Gambit™ out the @ss, but until death, we don't really know.
Jody quoting the Mayflower Compact, while I'm using "Common Sense", The Fed Papes, The Cons, and the Treaty of Tripoli (you know, that place in the "Marines" Fight Song). C'mon, you're trying the old "overwhelming exception™" fallacy. Bzzzzt.
I may paint with a brush, you're using a paint sprayer with this statement...
"War sucks, but when people die in war it is not murder. When people fly airplanes into office buildings, THAT is murder."
What about a war™ based on lies (hey, ain't that a sin, in your eyes).
Werner you attempt to rationalize bombing a city the size of Chicago, but I'm against the war in Iraq. You? I'm more of a Paine guy, actually.
"It’s impossible to leave out God." Blanket, meet sheet. Build that strawman, Werner...you can then blow him up with your "bazooka" gun.
Read Fed. Paper 8, because the FF's are against your views, both yours (if you are for this war) and Jody....diametrically opposed.
Did I call the founding fathers "godless". No, that was you Jody; mostly they were Deists. That's not Christian.
You don't know your 5th grade history very well, do you? Why the exodus from Europe now?
From the same as above...
Virtually all the evidence that attempts to connect a foundation of Christianity upon the government rests mainly on quotes and opinions from a few of the colonial statesmen who had professed a belief in Christianity. Sometimes the quotes come from their youth before their introduction to Enlightenment ideas or simply from personal beliefs. But statements of beliefs, by themselves, say nothing about Christianity as the source of the U.S. government.
William Johnson? C'mon, that's a fallacy of "overwhelming exception™". Bzzzzt. I'll give you Adams, he was awesome at "God-offs" and devoutly Christian. I'm using Jay, Madi, Hami, Paine, Jeffie,
Most were Deists. That ain't Christian.
How about Ben Franklin; "lighthouses are more useful than churches."
Franklin also said, "Beer is proof that God loves mankind." Franklin was a Deist™.
Ah, the Declaration™. Somehow I knew you'd fly that red herring and high.
-----
Many Christians who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration as "proof." The reason appears obvious: the document mentions God. However, the God in the Declaration does not describe Christianity's God. It describes "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God." This nature's view of God agrees with deist philosophy but any attempt to use the Declaration as a support for Christianity will fail for this reason alone.
More significantly, the Declaration does not represent the law of the land as it came before the Constitution. The Declaration aimed at announcing their separation from Great Britain and listed the various grievances with the "thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great Britain no longer hold, and we have more than thirteen states. Today, the Declaration represents an important historical document about rebellious intentions against Great Britain at a time before the formation of our independent government. Although the Declaration may have influential power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets, and judges may mention it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. Our presidents, judges and policemen must take an oath to uphold the Constitution, but never to the Declaration of Independence.
Of course the Declaration depicts a great political document, as it aimed at a future government upheld by citizens instead of a religious monarchy. It observed that all men "are created equal" meaning that we all come inborn with the abilities of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That "to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men." The Declaration says nothing about our rights secured by Christianity, nor does it imply anything about a Christian foundation.
So what are you now, Jody, a hippie, believin' in Nature's™ God?
That's fine with me, I'm giving you a choice to be what you want to be. It don't cut no ice with me.
"Only a psycho does that in the name of religion." Uhh, yeah, that's my point....
Whether it be killing in the name of "sanctity" or limiting "freedoms" in the name of "sanctity".
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
" .... describes "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God."
Ok good point 426
But didn't you mean Deiist?
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
C'mon guys, you can do better than "overwhelming exception"...
"Everyone has a right to his or her version of morality providing that it does not impinge on another's rights. Why do you begrudge him his views."
Why do people begrudge Lorrie Heasley the right to wear her views on a T-shirt? How is that impinging on another's right? Unless, of course the other person is a facist and wishes to dictate what views are allowed to be stated in public.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/story.asp?j=12109068&p=yzyx9yzz&n=12109182&x
But wait, I can hear it coming:
Southwest rules allowed the airline to deny boarding to any passenger whose clothing was “lewd, obscene or patently offensive”.
Back to Carlin's "7 Dirty Words" (you aren't allowed to use)....
Like Ken M. says, "Legislating morality is a VERY worrisome viewpoint."
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
No 426 it's correct
"the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God."
Behind the law of nature, there is the order-giver, law-maker, God.
This is perfect knowledge. mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10].
"Under My superintendence, the laws of nature is working."
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
Like I said, Pascal's Gambit...
Just a heads up, Hinduism is not welcomed, generally, in orthodox Christianity...
'Specially down this way...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Are we playing chess? :-)
And; There is no such thing as hinduism that I'm talking about.
Your move ,,,,,,,,,,
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
There is NO such word in the Vedas as Hindu!
Hey man .... this is big thread hijack. We are all now hosed!
And to top it off we are playing chess too!
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
Nice try, Jody, no cigar. We're not going to obfuscate into "who wuz Xian"....
I'm arguing for a seperation of church and state; a secular society.
If you agree, then great. Discussion over.
Start with TJ.
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
------------------------------------------------------------------------
But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
Aye, gotta rerun this one, Jod didn't get the 'message'
------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is it men cannot be made to believe!
-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)
WMD'S! Establishing Democracy (through force)!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
Or not, in the case of many 'Mericans....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
Byooooootiful, TJ.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")
Ah, of course! Revelation!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
Don't be a religious addict. Check.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
I took up the banner, now, as well. Look at Jody's morality, i.e.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
And thank 'ye heavens' you did TJ, although here I am, arguing for this in the 21st century...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
The lowest grade of ignorance, Jody, did you catch that one?
Hey, I know Humboldt, I lived on 'his' river for a few years....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
Frickin' "cherrypickers", I think is the point here.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
Kabloooey, there you go, Jody.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814
I hear you mang, just listen to Falwell or Robertson. Radical clerics issuing fatwas....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814
I dunno, "self-love". Good question, Jeffie.
Ah, but self love is "immoral" in many eyes. Whose morality? More freedom or less?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819
OOOOOOOH, snap.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819
That would exclude Christians. It's almost too bad he didn't write it up in the Constitution....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
Jesus ain't a bad guy, or, maybe he was, eh?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820
Hear that Christian Soldier, Jeffie thinks yer a heretic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.
-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.
Ah, the old "belief" vs. "reason" quote...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
Not yet, Tommy, not with the "return to the Dark Ages" (ID, the Young Earth theory) in modern America.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825
------------------------------------------------------------------------
How about some Paine?
----------------------------------
"The book called the Bible has been voted by men, and decreed by human laws to be the word of God; and the disbelief of this is called blasphemy."
Ouch, that's gotta hurt...Paine just crispy fried your book.
But right now, I gotta go buff some quickdraws. I'll be back later with more Paine.
And some Madi, to boot.
Unless you agree with the "seperation of church and state" and a secular America, that is.
But in any case...
LEB- are you arguing that t-shirts aren't "freedom of expression"?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
One could easily debunk your entire debate above 426.
But seeing how you really are I’ll leave you in your happiness.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
Funny how the conservatives like to blow their own horn about appointing "Strict Constructionalist" judges who would supposedly slavishly follow the letter of the law, then do just the opposite when it comes to the First Amendment's clause prohibiting states from respecting the establishment of religion. The text is actually pretty simple and clear but they sure like to spin their own contrived arguments for doing exactly the opposite of what the law says. Hypocrites!
|
|
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
Really like that part of the quote, "Diamonds from dunghills." Strikes a chord of a lot of mainstream philosophies these days, not just religion.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2005 - 12:17pm PT
|
LEB: "You are correct, I am very pro-choice. But if Jody wishes to hold different values, that is his right, as well. "
That is his right. I agree. Don't forget however, Jody wants to pass a law against making that choice available, so this in not "to each their own." Jody will have to speak for himself about if he thinks making the morning after pill an over the counter medication will prevent abortions or encourage other forms of immorality.
As for that T Shirt, the fact that it used "Profanity" to diss Bush is satsifactory enough reason in my mind that the passenger should be asked to cover it up. The Bush folks have suppressed enough people who weren't wearing profanity that we don't need to debate the debatable cases.
Peace
Karl
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
Sorry, but you are completely wrong. Read the 14th Amendment and case law related to this phrase:
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States..."
That means the liberties guaranteed under the Constitution apply to states, schools, etc. Sorry to burst your little theocratic bubble, but having the government "respect the establishment of religion" in such a manner is illegal.
EDIT: btw, the entire text of the 1st Amendment says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Jody, would you care to extend your reasoning and conclude that the entire amendment only applies to actions by Congress? In other words, would you like to argue that states may prohibit peacable assembly, freedom of speech or press, or petitioning the Government for a redress of grievances, because such prohibitions would not be based on laws passed by Congress and are therefore implicitly allowed by the First Amendment?
Didn't think so.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Yes, the Govt. has "taken" the role of religion and God and at the same time ......
No wonder the house is crumbling ......
The foundation was built very weak!
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
WB: "One could easily debunk your entire debate above 426.
But seeing how you really are I’ll leave you in your happiness. "
Go ahead, try and disprove that my posit that the original intent of the FF's wasn't a "religion based" society. You're going to sound pretty fundamentalist, pretty quickly.
You already made my point for me; "Only a religious psycho would "limit freedom." Or come over with a "big bazooka" gun.
Hey, you're way more into the Gita than I am, isn't that what Arjuna is told by Krisha. That's the purpose of life? Ask Jody or some of the other "righteous" members on the board what they think; I don't think you're going to find Arjuna's mission....
...Interestingly, though....
Yer whole "all is one" stuff doesn't cut it down here in the South.
Let me give you an example from the sign just down the road-Mt. Zion Baptist church.
"There are many ways to hell, but only one way to heaven....Jesus"
See, your belief in Kali or "all is one" just don't cut any ice down here with the Baptists....
Plz, debunk on. Show some more 'moral relativism'.
And just I'm about to get on my whole "Religion is used by fanatics..." spiel. Even Fattrad evidently agrees with me.
(must be a cold day somewheres in the 'nether' planes)...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Yes my friend debate will only accomplish so much for now. As I said I'll leave you in your happiness.
My answer stands:
The Govt. has "taken" the role of religion and God
No wonder the house is crumbling ......
The foundation was built very weak!
Oh and I forgot, your move :-)
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
Lois states: "You are correct, I am very pro-choice. But if Jody wishes to hold different values, that is his right, as well."
------------
The reverse of the pro-choice position is that you and anyone else should not be permitted, by law, to have a choice. You may (or may not) be old enough to have lived though the time when women and doctors were imprisoned for participating in abortions, I am, and I remember.
If you want to push your head into the sand, and pretend, on the pretext of free speech, that it is a good thing to work to eliminate your choice, up to you. But understand where this leads. Once it is illegal, then advocating this illegal act opens one up to a conspiracy charge to violate the law. Then we'll see how free your speech remains.
But you better understand what Jody is actually advocating by the positions that he defends, going a little bit behind the literal meaning of the words.
-------
I don't see all Christians as being lumped into one group. I am not into guilt by association. He has said nothing to suggest that he wishes to convert you to his position.
------
If you don't understand what he is writing, you should not be defending it.
The whole concept of evangelical Christianity is to persuade, or failing that, force, people to their vision of morality.
Get the big picture
--------------
He is stating his position clearly as he has a right to do and he is routinely attacked by virtue of having done so. The left on this board does not well tolerate dissent and difference of opinion.
------
Actually, I have never seen him attacked. I have seen his POSITIONS attacked. That is entirely appropriate. In reality, he is VERY well tolerated. I don't see his posts being deleted. I don't see people calling his employer to complain, just because of his posting. I don't see protesters outside his house. Jody has a habit of posting in inflammatory ways, "trolling", if you are familiar with the term. He *invites* attacks on his positions.
If you take the time to look at the responses to his posts, you will generally find them to be focused on what he has written.
--------
In fact, I do not particularly agree with his view on spirituality but I will defend to the death is right to express it...and to express it without harrassment.
---------
Hmmm. I always like hyperbole. Are you prepared to douse yourself with gasoline and ignite yourself, to bring the attention of the world to this harrassment? I thought not. So lets stop with the trite "to the death" comments, that you don't actually believe.
Well, glad you like free speech. However, when you level charges of harrassment, you had better be able to document the harrassment. Lets see some examples of this harrassment?
------
I object to the extremism of the left on this forum wherein anyone who takes an opposing position is labeled a villain of freedom and intellectually bankrupt.
------
Really? I thought you supported free speech, to the death?
And are you not harrassing the people with whom you disagree?
Kettle, Black?
-------
He is not necessarily mentally defective because he holds views contrary to what others perceive. The animosity of the left toward those persons who hold views which are contrary to their own position is every bit as extreme as what they accuse the right of being. The left is becoming, by in large a very intolerant (and cantankerous) bunch when it comes to dissention.
----------
You are, once again, missing the big picture.
you have one side, that advocates a state religion. If you don't follow that religion, you are a second class citizen (if you don't think so, go to Utah)
That side advocates that if you don't follow their philosophy, you are unpatriotic.
That side also advocates that women that do make a choice are murderers (but I guess not if they do it during a war), and that those who support that choice are also murderers. Factions of that side feel that killing the murderers with bombs and other means, is JUST FINE. That side has real trouble disowning those factions.
That side advocates that women are better seen than heard, and are best kept pregnant and barefoot. (but tends to hide this position, because they know it is not politically correct)
This is the side that Jody supports. If you support Jody, you are supporting it too.
The left does not advocate that the right be required to adopt any of it's philosophies. The right advocates that the left be REQUIRED to adopt it's practices.
Just remember that the left, one hundred years ago, implimented your right to vote, over the objections of the right. The left does NOT require that you vote. The right REQUIRED you NOT to vote.
Make sure that you really want these people to gain power over you, before you advocate on their behalf.....
-------
There is a need to take a good, hard look in the mirror at times and ask the question - "Am I projecting onto another that which I am guilty of myself." And I am no angel in this regard. I do it routinely all the time, myself. A good deal of what is projected onto Jody has no basis in reality if you critically look at what he writes."
------
Undoubtedly, but that is not unique to Jody.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Nice Post Ken M
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
Jody:"Look at the laws that are passed prohibiting "God" in the pledge."
Hey, why don't you research the "Original Pledge" before you trot out this stuff....
PS-It was going to end "and equality for all". You'll find no "god" in there.
....
But perhaps it does not good to argue reason with a member of the "Flat Earth" or should I say, "Young Earth" society.
Can't help but notice you're skirting around the issue of a war based on lies and a secular America.
But here, let's stick to the ideas you proposed...first we'll look at Washington...
"Much of the myth of Washington's alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems influential book, "Life of Washington." The story of the cherry tree comes from this book and it has no historical basis. Weems, a Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devout Christian, yet Washington's own diaries show that he rarely attended Church.
Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington's initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.
To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."
After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."
....
Werner-Long on style, short on substance. I think this thread is somewhat evidenciary proof that a "patriarchal, monotheistic" society is not very synonymous with many of the "civil and political liberties" laid out by the country's founders.
Maybe you are what one of my heros, Warren Harding, referred to as a "Valley Christian"...
I dunno, if you keep using the Gita, you're going to hell according to many Christians...
But it appears you agree we are a secular society; whatever "opinions" you have are justifiably yours and I'll defend your right to say them.
....
It looks like a thread on which some of this was discussed was nuked by the admins; so I guess I'll ask, if some of you are so into this idea of the "respect for the act of sex..." then maybe you can parse out Jeff Gannon/James Guckert, raunchy gay sex in the White House for us.
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/02/man-called-jeff.html
http://rawstory.com/exclusives/byrne/secret_service_gannon_424.htm
(not that I'm personally against it; in fact, Gannon can marry another man in my eyes, it "neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket"---how about your eyes, is this "moral" Can Gannon marry a gay lover?)
LEB: You accuse the 'liberal' side of painting with a broad brush...then you go ahead and do it. That binary viewpoint is straight off Fox News. If you're going to start labeling, then you should be precise and correct about it; if anything, I'm a libertarian. I'm more fiscally conservative than most "cons, neocons and Republicons".
While many weren't looking 2 weeks ago, Head Start was reauthorized with millions appropriated to faith based organizations. My fiscal conservative side winces. Does yours?
Last week, The Violence Against Women Act was reauthorized but only when attached to a petition to the Supreme Court to hear the "under god" clause of the Pledge of Allegiance. Do you see anything odd here?
Millions of dollars spent on stuff the founding fathers never intended to discuss? There must be another fiscal conservative somewhere other than here in Big T.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Sh-it you still here, spunky dude aren't ya.
Yes that's true according to some Christians I will be sent to hell.
Now, we'll see where I will be sent.
I'm going climbing now ..... you think that'll be Ok to do :-)
See ya brother until later when our next move encompasses?
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
Yeah, I'm still waiting for a good "debunking" here.
Pascal's Gambit...but anyhoo....
Go on, climb, as I said earlier, "to each his/her own", it's your mang Jody who wants to legislate his "morals" onto women, gays, Nevadans, libruls, atheists, little kids (i.e. the pledge)....
and maybe even you....
Maybe a sign society is crumbling when people are kicked out of malls and airplanes for a t-shirt.
I certainly feel that if liberties are impinged, then it's a point to the "terrarists".
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
One question: If I do not believe in the God of Abraham (Ibrahim), or in fact, any god, why do I have to swear on the Bible in a court of law? If I am asked to swear on something I do not believe in, and there is no alternative available to me, and so I have to do it (or be found in contempt, I imagine) then am I not being forced to commit perjury by swearing on something I do not believe in?
Think about it.
Perhaps there is an alternative but I have never heard about it, but then I have only been in traffic court.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2005 - 04:52pm PT
|
While the T shirt reaction might be debatable because of the public profanity, the secret service coming after this High School kid for putting a red thumb tack through the president's head with a thumbs down seems like an overreaction to me.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1006-25.htm
Peace
karl
|
|
426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
|
|
Yeah, I didn't want to throw too much sand in anyone's eyes by mentioning that one. Trying to keep on a 'secular vs. religious' level and attendant freedoms and such.
Good thread Karl, sorry to jack it so badly....
But hey, while I'm here, Jod, you look up the Pledge yet?
You're into those socialist manifestos, eh? (hint:the Pledge was written by a Christian Socialist)....
-While you're there, look up how "in gawd we trust" was added to money...nowhere near the founding fathers' time...
...And I think I know where Jod got the "this is a Christian Nation" notion from....
In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity Church vs. United States, Justice David Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation." Many Christians use this as evidence. However, Brewer wrote this in dicta, as a personal opinion only and does not serve as a legal pronouncement.
Later Brewer felt obliged to explain himself: "But in what sense can [the United States] be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or the people are compelled in any manner to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all."
Nice segue, if you looked up when the "Original" Pledge was 'writ'...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Ok I'm back 426
I see what you're saying and I'll go along with that.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
|
|
Bad things happen when you have people (our government) with little or no morals dishing out morality.
GWB is a prime expamle of that.
For what it's worth...I tend to agree with 426.
|
|
Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
|
|
Karl the irony of that thumbtack photo incident is almost too much to bear....
|
|
Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
|
|
|
Oct 27, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
|
memories of the rocks...
|
|
| Messages 1 - 90 of total 90 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!