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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 11, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
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Think of some Leads in your life, if you fall you DIE!
Any photos or tales?
Is this R or X factor = to A5 but free climbing Maybe stupid question?
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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2009 - 08:47pm PT
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Dec 11, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
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war-ning, this is a repost cause i only live(d) once:
11/23/99
third saturday of the month. in placerville in the old days this meant free wine on main street in celebration of the local artists recent works.
you can bet i was in regular attendance.
all day i had been craggin up at sugarloaf. climbing well and confident, if not agressive and reckless.
a really good day in the mountains was had. for a long while i had been gawking at the fat merchant crack. i looked longingly at it and knew i could fit into it squeeze style.
hell, i was 23 and living my dirt bag lifestyle: daily excursions in the mountains, simple diet, and a good amount of booze.
that day my interest in the climb peaked. i had to be inside that slot.
but it wasn't to be that day. or was it...
down in p-town, downing wine and shuffling about with my companions. i got good and drunk. the wine swelled my wonder and curiosity and courage, and my mind wrapped itself around that crack up in the hills.
it had started to rain quite hard at dark. geesus i gotta go have a look at the climb. just a look.
so i shoulder up my pack and hike thru the rain into the night of my making, or undoing, or, well, just the night. i get to the climb and peer up into it with my headlamp. i harness up, tie the rope to my gear loop and start up the thing.
it is just like i imagined it. the climb welcomes me higher. and higher. i get to the narrow section and move outwards. just beyond my nose, the rain is covering all. but the insides of the crack are dry.
i had never been here before except in my mind, and my mind didn't lie to me. i squeeze my way thru the slot and pop onto lower angle ground without too much toil.
the anchors are still 60 feet off, up a streaming wet corner. i laugh at the situation as i look about my vicinity. perched on a slab 100' off the ground, in the dark, in a sierra winter storm alone and evil. no rightous. no, just simple old chuck dancin his dance of life.
so i know that i must climb down, as it would be too dangerous to go for the anchors.
so i downclimb the horse. unsaddle. walk back down the mountain, extremely fulfilled and merry. back to town i go, with a little secret under my cap.
later, that stone beer tasted just like stone beer, only, full of hope exploding, or rather imploding like a giant ball of burning hydrogen.
cheer.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 11, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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Fogarty,
Power Dome? Which route? Nice shot...
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hooblie
climber
sounding out stuff , in the manner of crickets
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:07pm PT
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i've got a route, weeping moon, above glen aulin camp on the pluto slab, easy 10x. it turned out that way because i was lazy, comfortable and simply kept moving up looking for any natural pro. i looked down a few times, the notion of falling was a little more unpallettable than usual, but i wasn't going to melt off of there nor was i paralyzed.
how does that give me the right to usurp fine terrain in a way that would deter someone who climbs at that level?
the fact that those folks have turned away from it has given me no satisfaction at all.
right away i meant to go back and fix it, but i knew that real bolts, not the stance drilled, single quarter incher, were called for.
twenty two years have passed and i haven't got around to it. that's slovenly, not heroic.
believe me, i never so much as raked in a beer for the glory, on the other hand someone could tumble right into the past.
i hope i get the say so on the final edit, there should be some pressure. i would like it to be recognized as intelligently crafted,
but nobody should fail to come home because i had a sweet groove going on that day.
after all there's just a few of my proud ones that i would still take a shot at, once it's properly completed
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
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leave it undone.
because the undone and the unknown and the uncertain ingnite vitality, even if one's search upon distant emotional shores pitches them into the past, or the future, or that ridiculous place in-between that makes all of the non-sense in both known and imagined worlds.
leave it undone hobblie.
leave the stars to shine in the eyes of dreamers.
for my glance would be compromised if royal had sunk a comfort bolt in that wide crack called the fat-merchant.
hell, my manhood is proped up on that lead.
if you go and safe'n up your route, you damn well might be stealin some young lad's manhood.
leave it undone, i say.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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"When we share the story with Nidever, he tells us of the recovery he did with SAR of a guy that did the same thing, but never found the bolt, and took the 200 foot grounder"
I was about 30 feet up Cresent Arch when the guy fell.
I saw the expression on his face as he fell past me.
The rope absorbed nearly all the energy of the fall but his feet caught and he flipped back hit his skull.
I down climbed and traversed over to him as his belayer lowered him down to me so I could place him on a small ledge.
It took about an hour for him to die.
Juan
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hooblie
climber
sounding out stuff , in the manner of crickets
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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yes norwegian, you state nicely the case for "on the other hand." i've still got a pair 'em, hands that is.
the best dichotomies can be well advocated either way, on occasion by either party.
i aspire to have pondered the angles, reflecting moments without guile. for now it's why memorialize accidental boldness?
that pitiful bolt among a few thin wires, it should have been a quiet solo, not an upward bumble resulting in a house of cards.
ok, that's less than generous. maybe it was a ratcheting look see
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lars johansen
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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For sure Power Dome Kris. Somewhere to the right of 'Nukey' Mike?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
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yea hobblie,
There are plenty of vertical paths out there for the folks whom are merely looking for exerercise. most of the time, i am one of those people.
the paths conducive to mental sorting are fewer. and those paths must remain.
Thank you for authoring one.
edit,
i appologize for the unintentional and unfortunate parallel between mine post and juan's.
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ec
climber
ca
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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Pressure Sensitive, Moro Rock, Sequoia National Park, pitch 4
Edit: sorry for the tiny pic. the climbers are on the far steep 'edge' on the face. this pitch heads out into a sea of shallow knobs with no real place to rest (or drill on the FA) on 5.8/5.9. My mind is foggy, but some 40 feet out in the middle of the pitch are just a pair of doorknob sized (or smaller) chicken heads to tie-off in tandem, then another 40 feet past those puppies to a full-on Largo-style, 'Advanced Rock Climbing Video' 5.9 mantle (the funny-one, only this one is NOT funny). Once surmounted, I gladly fired in a bolt. Above, there was more of the same run out with only a random slash in the stone that took a #1 Friend, then only a short run out to a huge ledge. You just cannot fall on sh*t like that.
I just remembered "No More Mr. Nice Guy" at The Needles has very potentially deadly run outs as well...(2nd ascent)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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from the TM guide... climbs I've done with an R or an X
White Flake 5.7 R - casual TM route... runout
Great White Book 5.6 R - the all time TM sandbag, great route, good introduction to soloing
South Crack 5.8 R - sure the face is long, use a longer rope and don't belay right under it!
Curve Like Her 5.9 R - couldn't suck it up to find the 5.9 way through the 5.10 & 5.11
The Block, Right 5.8 R - never understood why it got an "R" or a 5.8 rating
Prime Time 5.8 R - didn't seem out of the ordinary for TM
Pippin 5.9 R - didn't find all the bolts and lived to tell
Hot Crossed Buns 5.6 PG/R - it's on the Bunny Slopes! easy to miss bolts
Mere Image 5.7 PG/R - slick moves along a dike, don't get distracted
R.C.A. 5.8 R - take some tricams
El Condor 5.8 R/X - pockets take tricams
Lembert Dome, Northwest Buttress 5.9 PG/R - don't know where this route goes anyway, could be R
Lunar Leap 5.9 R - I didn't leap, did the "5.10" start and risked hitting the ledge
Truck n' Drive 5.9 R - at some point you learn what TM is all about
Left Water Crack 5.7 R - awkward if you don't figure it out... like the squeaky shoe sounds
Right Water Crack 5.8 R - you can blow it if you really try hard
Werner's Wiggle 5.8 R - knowing that Werner soloed this in work boots inspires you
Elephant's Massacre 5.8 R - ground fall if you blow it, you won't...
Marmot Dome - we inadvertently did a new route here, all of the ones in the book have an "R", it is slick, but not particularly tricky
Great Pumpkin 5.8 PG/R - sparse bolts on the top pitch
Peter Peter 5.10a R - rebolted this one a couple of years ago, first pitch is run to the first bolt, upper two pitches run between bolts...
Magical Mystery Tour 5.8 R - a route up a dome
Right North Book 5.7 PG/R - no pro on easy ground, hella good 5.7 squeeze chimney at crux
Hobbit Book 5.7 R - classic climbing on a face, you're going for it and all is good
Dike Route 5.9 R - scary tales abound, but everyone seems to live
The Vision 5.10a R - at the crux you can't tell why you are somehow sticking to the rock, and you don't dare rush things, stance bolted, and a victim of the bolt wars, you don't want to test the crux protecting bolt
Eagle Dihedral 5.7 ? - given the ratings above, this should have an "R" because of the long run out surprisingly engaging 5.5 pitch off the ledge with no pro for a ways
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
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Anybody out there done 'Crying Time Again?' Well, back in the 70's the route had just been put up. One of the FA team wandered into our camp in Tuolumne and told us about this great new route they had just done. I asked for some beta and they said just follow a line of bolts for four or five pitches up the west face on Lembert. My friend Julie Brugger and I decided to give it a go the next day.
The first four or so pitches to the big ledge went without incident. The last pitch was my lead and all I could see was a single bolt 20' off the ledge with a white sling in it. I headed up to the bolt, clipped it and just kept climbing straight up the face. It wasn't too hard, maybe 5.9+/5.10a, but there weren't any more bolts in sight.
About 30' above the bolt I came to a small ledge (6"x12"). It was such a good ledge that when there was no bolt, I figured I was off route. I really didn't think I could downclimb the 50' back to the big ledge so I figured I might as well try to shoot for the top and hope that there was some pro above.
I had to climb about another 80' of more 5.9+/5.10a on some nice small edges to get to the top. I never found any place to put pro. This was definitely a "don't fall" lead. I think Julie was more worried than me about the risk I was taking. She is a solid 5.11 climber and fell at least once following my lead. I was just glad to make it to the top.
Bruce
Postscript- when we got back to camp, Julie told a lot of people about that final pitch and John Sherman, who was in the camp next to us, came over and announced that he was going to do the route the next day and see what all the fuss was about.
He came striding into camp the next day saying that the route wasn't all that hard and there was no 'death lead' on the last pitch. I asked him where he went and he said he took the crack/seam that headed up left from the main ledge. When I told him that I had climbed the face directly above the bolt with the white sling his eyes got really big and he just walked away.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:38pm PT
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Where's Caylor? Where's Coz?
Those guys know about this stuff!!!!
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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geeze too many to remember
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:35am PT
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Oddy, the summer I was finishing up my Ph.D. I got into the grove and got on something like a dozen different R routes that were either 5.10 or 5.11. As I remember I managed to do 10 of them. Most of these were on the granite in the Wasatch. I have done R routes since then but never so many over the summer. I attribute it to just being able to focus really hard cause of trying to finish grad school.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:45am PT
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Hey Ed, if you didn't find all the bolts on Pippin, you probably did the 5.7/8 variation to the crux pitch. The 5.9 is actually pretty contrived, following a dike out right when the logical route is shelves and horizontal cracks (well, a bit diagonal) straight up (probably 5.8 around the first bolt, but 5.7 higher).
Actually took me quite a while to figure out where that second bolt was on that pitch when we replaced it, and when I finally spotted it I was wondering why it was way over that-a-way...
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:55am PT
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I think Ed's list hit's alot of them I've done at least 40% of those routes and talked to Gawd while trying to get up them or find a 1/4" leeper somewhere. I would like to add Red's delight on the Hogsback 5.9-, if you find a bolt your probably more on route then I have ever been ......
About 6 years ago I took a friend up "The Great White book"....We were in the elephant congo line and we noticed an elderly gentlemen in brown polyester pants and long sleeve shirt with a "ranger" style hat on free soloing up the route....We thought?.....Well waiting at the 3rd belay this gentleman cruises up to us and asks if we mind him playin' through. We recognized him as the TM ( Having been ribbed by him at the Leap for racking to much Gear before). Of course you may climb through TM, and have a nice day sir.
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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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Ksolem, Yes POWER Dome, Zorro Zone Original start, climb left of the newly protected start, Quite runout as I remember, you can't fall or you go 50 to 80+ in the creek.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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Greg, sure we didn't go left....
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Gobi
Trad climber
Orange CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:20am PT
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Taking a forty footer off Air Sweden in Indian Creek
I was totally ok just a little shooken up
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:28am PT
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Supposedly the origional route on Super Pin has never been repeated. 100ft of 5.10 which makes for a really big boulder.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:42am PT
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Gobi, ya didna clip tha chains, eh?
neat thread
Hooblie, we'll be near there next season. If you go back in let me know. I'd like to try some of the Glen Aulin stuff.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:19am PT
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The Vision (Scanned Slide mid-1980s)
Scavanger, Fairview (Scanned Slide late-1980s)
Table of Contents (Scanned Slide from mid-1980s)
Great White Book Photo Courtesy Bill McConachie
Dike Route
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bmacd
Trad climber
British Columbia
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:24am PT
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Squamish, White Lighting last pitch. Full rope length, no pro the entire pitch, being a 5.9 slab, the pump is a mental one. It's one of a few pitches I will never forget. Another one being the crux pitch on Reality Chek, Yak peak. For a n00b like me, there were also many moments on Middle Cathedrals DNB that were also memorable. In my failed effort to create the direct start to Squamishes classic, Freeway, I inadvertently created the start to the free version of Cannabis wall, the same day, I retro'd in 3 additional bolts above the first 2 placed on lead, after I had freed it, to eliminate the ground fall.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:50am PT
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that scavenger shot is sick!!
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Dec 12, 2009 - 03:32am PT
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caughtinside: that pitch puckered by sphincter big time
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
. . . not !
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:30am PT
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If memory serves - the final pitch of Southern Belle (5.9?) has no points of protection . Only Schultz and Houlding have had the honor .
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Dec 12, 2009 - 09:38am PT
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In 1990, I was climbing pretty well. 5.8 was like an approach pitch to me until I ran up against the second pitch of the Free Blast.
We got to the top of P1, no problems. Day light was running low and to make time I took the whole 'Gunks Style' rack, a water bottle, and dragged two haul lines, being the large sack guy that I was that afternoon. Well, I placed our largest piece, a 2.5 Friend, about 10 feet off the belay. Then I started laybacking. That is a nice, incut edge on that crack and the going was fast and smooth. Eventually I found some face holds out on the right and mantled up and stood on the holds. Then I looked down and realized I was 50' runout and the crack was too wide for anything on the rack I was carrying. Plus, the crack edge became rounded.
At this point, I was still a cocky as$h0le telling myself that it's 'only 5.8'. After standing in that spot for quite a while I started to get scared and began my first series of shrinkage phases. We had bigger gear in the car and my buddy yelled down to my old college roommate to run back to the car and get the big cams. So she runs back to the car. After accelerating through a half dozen more shrinkage episodes while standing on those edges, I decided I needed to do something. So I looked into the crack and thought I could wedge my head in that thing. I got my left foot pasted on the side of the crack and I just rocked over and stuck my head into the thing; I had a legitimate headjam going. It was a good thing that I was able to keep some weight off with my left foot smear. I was able to then grab some chockstones in the back of the crack and I proceeded to grovel my way to the hanging belay just as my old roommate got back with the big gear.
Yep, I've got two pulsars in my sack now. And I can turn any well protected pitch into a death pitch.
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perswig
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:49am PT
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"And I can turn any well protected pitch into a death pitch."
You, too? I think of it as a gift:).
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
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bump for the "sea of knobs" pitches on scavenger in TM. great photo above. did that route a few times in the 80's and hope to go back
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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Speaking of Courtright Reservoir (the earlier Power Dome pics) here's a shot taken mid 90's of the Carson Kodas Arete, 5.11cR. The second bolt is right next to the thin flake a body length above my head. The clipping (drilling) stance is just above my left hand. The mental crux of the climb is rocking up onto that stance. Thankfully the real crux is just after the bolt, moving up and left to the arete proper. Best not to fall from here...
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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i guess i'll surrender to fear.
as i embark upon my next spicy lead,
i will pray to jesus at the bottom,
that
way
if i fall,
i will fall up.
and when i get to the summit,
i will bow to lucifer,
and i will descend down.
down. down. to my next
gothic undoing.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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Here's a view looking down from the 2nd of the two Sea of Knobs pitches. Note single bolt on what I recall is a ~85 ft pitch. Don't remember whether it was a 3/8" or 1/4" bolt back in the late 1980s when this photo was taken...probably 1/4". At one point I desperately tried to tie off one the larger feldspar knobs with no success. I don't recall any single difficult move. In fact, there are so many knobs up there that that the mental exercise of visualizing and optimizing the near infinite possibility of move sequences started overloading my circuits and I had to shut down the optimizing algorithm and just climb. Eric Collins, my partner at the time, lead the previous run out pitch with total composure and impeccable style.
Here's Eric runnin' it out on Fear No Evil, Lovers Leap
and on Stoner's Highway
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:28pm PT
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Dresdoom in Sedona. 5.9+R, five or six pitches of heady climbing. A lot of the pro is slung holes in sandstone.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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I know its a bit of a light weight climb but...
in 1986 I did Fantasia. This was my 3rd 5.9 and I was 16 years old.
I got lost, I climbed around, I thought I was going to die, and then I didn't... My partner got scared following pitch 1 and then refused to lead any pitches.
To this day I can feel the entire experience.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
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On the FA of Iron Messiah I went up and left on an easy slab with no pro for 25-30m.
Others have found a harder way that takes pro, and virtually all parties use that variation.
But on the topo I labelled my pitch as 5.4X
Trouble is; everybody who reads the topo seems to assume that the X means that there is a bolt.
Many people have told me that they used the variation because they "couldn't see the bolt."
I kind of wish that the variation didn't exist.
As for the best route name for one of my run out climbs;
Full Metal Jockstrap
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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Probably anyone who was climbing slabs in the Meadows or the Valley before routes started to be sport-bolted has led dozens of R - rated routes.
What freaked me out a little was when I got newer editions of some of my old guidebooks and saw routes that I led, that used to be rated R, that are now rated R/X. One example is Green Dragon on Glacier Point Apron, which is now rated 11.b R/X. I've led that a couple of times and did take a fall one of the times. (Clint C., I believe you were my belayer on that fall if I recall?) I did hit something on that fall and got a really nasty black and blue mark on my butt. Maybe if not for my ampley fat-padded butt I would have really gotten hurt ;).
Another one was Head Rush on Lembert Dome, which is now rated 10.a R/X, but was then rated just R. I can still distinctly remember the huge amount of adrenaline I had going thru my body on that one. That's one I would never, ever repeat!
Phyl
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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Head Rush originally had 5 bolts, but 2 of them broke over the years. I replaced the 3 obvious bolts, and then later I was back for more replacement of nearby routes, and I happened to notice one of the broken bolts. I replaced that, and then studied the rock and found a 5th bolt. So the R/X rating is from when two bolts were missing, it's R now (assuming that icefall hasn't sheared off some of the new bolts...).
Ed - your photo shows the leader around the first bolt - you have to go sharply right (like 20 feet right) and up the dike to find the second bolt. If you went up (slightly left then back right) and plugged pro in hand-sized horizontals, that's not the original route.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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Days of Future Passed sometimes gets an R:
(photo lifted from Mountain Project)
Me on the fist crack pitch (not the sometimes R pitch but the only photo I have).
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:04pm PT
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A little runnout on GPA this summer. Sustained 5.8 and 5.9 friction for quite a ways. The one bolt is now SS 3/8" so that might inspire a little confidence. The rock definitely had my attention.
I generally try to avoid R-rated routes since they can be hazardous to my health. But occasionally I'll get on one for one reason or another...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:04pm PT
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Oh yeah, and like twenty years after putting up the N ridge of Notch Dome I decided that having a runout so long on the second pitch that, if you fall, you can actually hit the ground, was a bit much.
So I went up there 2 months ago with my Bosch and started to put in a pro bolt,........
and fukking ran out of juice with only an inch of hole.
Had to fukking lead it anyway with an extra load in my pack.
Nearly wound up with another one in my shorts!
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:24am PT
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my favorite was a route we thought was "flight path" at red rocks, turned out to be some 10-ish thing, which i couldn't possibly have climbed had i known it was rated that. As i puled a teeny roof, weighting a knob with my stretched out right leg, i heard it go- "pop." Next thing i knew i was quite a ways, down, held by a nut behind a plate, feeling the sand and gravel from above still brushing over me. Eeek.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Dec 13, 2009 - 04:17am PT
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What about the 2nd pitch of april fools? Also a var pitch to lady bug (at the leap). Full on 5.8 death pitch. 75 + feet of tenuous moves over a ledge with no pro at all. Probably one of the most memorable pitches I have ever lead. At one point my belayer was screaming to put in pro, at the belay he was white as a ghost.
Very stout yet unassuming, wonder how many have ventured up that pitch?
It just suckers you into it, looks like it will pro up, but nope no dice!
Hardman Knott?
Petch?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:34am PT
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Most of the really scary free leads I've done weren't on purpose, they had no ratings.
Suddenly there's that gut-punched knowledge that you're climbing for your life.
If you see an R in the guidebook and then start the lead anyway, that's usually not
in the same mental class -- you have an idea what to expect, you've thought it over,
and figured you're up for this.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:44am PT
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Nerve Wrack Point in the meadows was pretty spicy if I remember correctly. Maybe not death but disfigurement...
I had the damndest time finding those bolts...
Cheers
DD
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:12pm PT
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One I wrote up for ST, now languishing as the Needle's Eye trip report.
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papa_eos
Trad climber
conejo valley, california
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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On my first trip to Courtright Res. with myself pretty much a freshman trad climber, my buddy Chris asked Greg Vernon at the campground about a good route to do. He mentioned Zorro Zone, and you could use small rack of cams, fun route, he didn't stress that we needed some tri-cams for the solution pockets.
I still cringe when thinking about Chris on one of the upper pitches being out about 100+ feet looking for bolts or pro placements. At the belay I wondered if my harness and/or belay would hold if he throttled by me. This was an example of "When in doubt, run it out"
We finished it, went back to camp, saw Greg, mentioned the lack of pro and he just had that evil grin. He said we should have had some tri-cams.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:52pm PT
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Mucci,
I remember that pitch. That was my very first climb! I was too new know much but I was very aware that my faithful leader -David Stam- was "out there" as he told me "Do NOT short rope me".
Oh yeah, it was raining!
This was they day that began the rest of my life. Man I love climbing.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Dec 13, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
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Mucci... That second pitch of April Fools used to have a bolt. You can see the old 1/4in stud that is sheared off and bent over about 30ft above the belay ledge. It's not a pitch worth repeating IMO.
From what I've observed of "R" routes is that most of them hardly deserve the grade. Yeah sure, there might be some space between your gear, but 90% of the time your on ground way below the crux grade.
I know people (alot of people) who would never get on a route merely because it has an R in the guide. Totally ridiculous! Are you really willing to pass up a world class route to go stand in line for another just because it has a 5.6R section on a 5.10 route? Because that's basically what you're doing... most of the time anyway.
Have ya'll seen the new Tuolumne guide? Apparently everything there is R/X. What a load of B.S. Way to liberal use or the R/X classification.
Ok so, X routes pretty well define themselves, but what about R routes. What's the criteria for a route to be considered runnout? Apparently some people seem to think it's anything beyond what a normal "sport route" would have. I disagree.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 03:10pm PT
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Tuolumne is easy to figure out Salmanizer:
10' above a bolt on 5.11 = R/X
70' out from last pro on a 5.8 = PG/R
Kind of like how it's easy to figure out star ratings in Joshua Tree:
Good 5.7: zero stars
Best 5.7 in JT: 4 stars
Crumbly thin edge 5.13c: 5 stars
Maybe actually good 5.13c: 5 stars
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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By Tucson standards, Days of Future Passed is pretty well protected so I would be curious which pitch you consider to be R rated, the 3rd or 4th? Several bolts were added during the intial ascents to produce the route in its current state but that is another story...
The Great Gig in the Sky which climbs the face left of Days is another matter with entire pitches of runout climbing. Great route! Defintely an X rated adventure as the name implies. LOL The stone in the Stronghold lends itself to wild climbing and most of the finest bold routes in the Tucson area are there.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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I didn't think Days was more sketch than other Cochise climbs (it's less so than many), it just sometimes appears with an R. I think because you might hit the ledge on the last pitch at some points, though the climbing isn't that hard.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 13, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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Ok, this is gonna be one of those retro-grouchy rants.
I think the protection rating system has condemned lots of perfectly good climbs to an undeserved obscurity.
Used to be, you went up and tried to climb something. If you didn't like the pro you retreated. If the climb still appealed, you worked on raising your game and came back when you thought you were ready.
Now its all handled by the guidebook (according to standards that are more subjective and far less universal than climbing grades), and people don't even get on routes they are really quite capable of doing.
Come to think of it, maybe this is a good thing!
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gonzo chemist
climber
the Twilight Zone of someone else's intentions
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Dec 13, 2009 - 06:01pm PT
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A few years ago, a friend and I took a trip to Red Rocks for a weekend. I'd never been to RR before, but I had been dying to go. My buddy sent me photos of this really incredible looking climb that he had been eye-ing the weekend before, located on the Catus Flower Tower. So needless to say, I was psyched. A new place to climb AND an awesome, obscure long route. Turns out the climb was every bit as good as the photos. Long pitches of squeeze chimney, hand and finger cracks, stemming corners, even a CAVE(!) on the route led us eventually over a large roof, to an anchor right on the lip, and to the base of the remaining 300' of pure face climbing. I was up for the lead on P6, and was expecting some kind of bolt line to follow. I had never seen a topo of the route and had no idea what was up there. My partner said, 'just go up and keep looking for bolts. They've GOT to be up there. And besides, we're past the crux now, so it can't be that bad." So I cast off into the steep and vast open expanse of rock. After about 25 or 30 feet and no bolts, it became apparent that falling was NOT an option: if I were lucky, I would have pitched over the roof and maybe only broken my ankles. Worst case: maybe the anchors pull out of the sandstone and we take an express ride right back to our packs at the base. All I know is, I'm used to bullet hard granite, and this sandstone stuff just isn't inspiring. Much to my relief, I find a bolt about 40' up and clip it. I take a deep breath and keep going, slow but steady, periodically clinging to the rock like a lizard when the wind began to howl. 80' off the belay I get a small nut between two plates. 'Just keep moving, just keep moving,' I would tell myself. I couldn't see any other bolts. No anchor was calling out to me from above. But I just decided I would keep going until I either hit an anchor, or ran out of rope. Another 70' feet of no pro passed slowly, like time had just stopped altogether. It was weird. I had become numb. All that mattered was to find the good holds and keep moving upward, inch by inch. Then all at once, I was stunned to find myself face to face with two 3/8 inch bolts. I clipped in, yelled that I was off belay, and let out the loudest whooping scream of my life.
That pitch was maybe about sustained 5.8ish (truth is I really couldn't tell); not that hard technically. And prior to that, I had even soloed things of that difficulty. But the combination of unfamiliar and sometimes dubious rock, in an area I'd never climbed before, near the end of a long day made this pitch feel like an epic adventure I'd never experienced before.
The route we climbed was The Warrior (not 'Rock Warrior', which I think is more popular). 7 pitches, 5.11a. I HIGHLY recommend it if you're looking for something off the beaten path in RR, that is full of adventure and excellent climbing.
-Nick
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ec
climber
ca
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Dec 13, 2009 - 06:17pm PT
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Rx = Drugs required to lead
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Dec 13, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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^^^ A proper safety meeting is necessary.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Dec 13, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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I tend to agree with RGold. Things have gone so far that routes that seemed perfectly normal outings BITD, now all sport "R" ratings -- most notably Tuolumne. There has been a real dumbing down of all ratings as expectations have changed (with gym and sport climbers venturing out onto "trad" routes).
And while there is no real consensus on what makes a route "R" or "X," within each climbing area, there seems to be some consistency.
No More Mr. Nice Guy is one that stands out in my mind (someone mentioned making a 2nd ascent). Lechlinski, Gilje and I each drilled one bolt on the crux pitch. Gilje drilled the last one, after running it out quite a ways and through the crux.
Of course, Space Babble is a real classic.
I'm sure there are more, but my mind is gone.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 13, 2009 - 07:21pm PT
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If climbers didn't consult guidebooks and topos as much, it wasn't because they were made of sterner stuff, it was because there weren't as many guidebooks, and the ones that were written were either far less detailed or consistently wrong and confusing.
Personally, almost all my climbs in Devil's Lake, my early climbs in the Shawangunks and in the Needles in SD were done without any kind of guidebook. I did lots of climbs in the Tetons trying, often with little success, to follow Ortenburger's descriptions---some of these resulted in new routes or variations. Climbs in the Wind Rivers and Bugaboos I did mostly with the American Alpine Journal descriptions from the Climbs and Expeditions section, which were far less detailed than today's guidebook write-ups. In Yosemite, Tuolumne, RMNP, Lumpy Ridge, and Eldorado Canyon, I had primarily information communicated verbally by other climbers. It wasn't unusual to know something about where the route went without any pitch-by-pitch breakdown. You knew that there'd be 5.9 somewhere, but not much about where or how much.
As for protection, I think most climbs were R-rated by today's standards, but of course they were easier and there was much more of a leader must not fall approach. I'm thinking of the piton-protected period through the beginnings of clean climbing, before cams came on the scene. You just didn't ever place that many pitons on a pitch, so the run-outs were often pretty big. One of the major changes that came along with nuts is that you could, and did, put in much more gear. Still, before cams, there were inevitably big gaps between solid placements. Fortunately, there were no protection ratings to alert us to the fact that we were gonna die.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Dec 13, 2009 - 07:37pm PT
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Even though I agree with RGold's general observations, I do believe that R and X ratings do have a place in a guidebook. The purpose of a guide is several fold, but primarily, get you to the route, let you know where the route goes, how difficult the route is (which would include R/X ratings*), any special gear requirements which may not be apparent, and descent info.
Other important info would include, FA info, route's orientation to sun/shade or shelter from winds (if relevant). Historical tidbits and stories are nice too; guidebooks are often the only venue where this information can be preserved and passed on to future generations. Personally, I find historical info often adds to my appreciation of a route.
None of these things detract from the climbing experience (imo), but can add to it.
However, the overly detailed beta (e.g.: "place 1.5 inch cam here"; "lieback this feature rather than jam" or "look for a hidden pocket on the right-hand face") that tells you how to climb (rather than about the climb), can ruin your experience and I place it in another category altogether.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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I think seriousness ratings are very useful as a point of reference when considering venturing up on a route especially one with vintage hardware in place. An R rating in my mind presents a risk of a 30+ foot fall from a place where a fall is likely at the grade of difficulty of the route.
An X rating implies either a very long fall or a clearly bad landing or groundout if a climber falls from a place that is likely at the grade of the route.
So many easy routes or alpine climbs are covered with climbing where a fall would certainly be disasterous. Using an R or X rating excessively distorts the demands of a particular route and has a definite influence on climbers shying away unnecessarily.
The Gunks is full of great R routes that folks don't do because of the adjectival grade as Rgold has said elsewhere. It is not a trivial rating and needs to be clear and comparative by definition.
I tend to seek out bold routes and really like to also know who did the FA so I have some idea what the route might require.
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Pate88
Trad climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
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I want to say Walk On The Wild Side, a truly stellar R climb, but I'm seeing pics of people rapping off of it over on rc.com, and I'm wondering- has it been re-bolted?
The times I did it you wouldn't even want to sneeze on the bolts let alone rap off of them. But t hat was a while ago.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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One of the extensions of this whole R/X argument is that these days, in many people's eyes, if you put up a new route and it is R/X then you are a bad climber who isn't thinking about the climbing community and just some selfish, elitist butthead who only climbs for your own pleasure.
For me, doing first ascents, ground up, is about heading out into the unknown and trying to get up the rock. I don't go out of my way to avoid placing bolts where they are necessary, but sometimes you just can't stop and drill where you want.
Also, I don't worry if anybody repeats the routes I put up. Popularity isn't necessarily the major factor if a route is 'good' or not. Very few people have done Bachar-Yerian, but I doubt if people are calling it a crap route because it doesn't get climbed very often.
We need routes of all seriousness in climbing. The risk factor is just as valid as a grade as is the technical difficulty.
Bruce
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:06am PT
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^^^
Very well put Bruce.
Mucci
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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SG: "An R rating in my mind presents a risk of a 30+ foot fall from a place where a fall is likely at the grade of difficulty of the route."
The "R" is often used on slab and face climbs, where the crux pitch is well-protected, but easier - often much easier - climbing before and after isn't. So you end up with a route that's 5.10, with (nominally) a 5.8R pitch - which gets called 5.10R. Quite misleading - the issue in context is the "5.8", not the "R".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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Spray in penance for off-topic postings lately
Rope solo on Lucifers ledge to the Oasis. The best anchors were two rustly 1/2 inchers, the worst, a fixed bong. No pro, can't see the next anchors, and the lichen isn't even worn.
I got one rope, so I'm committed and it's getting late. Extensive downclimbing required to get on track once I saw the anchors.
Then I spent the night up there
http://www.yosemiteclimber.com/LucifersLedgeSolo.html
PEace
Karl
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:15am PT
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So many easy routes or alpine climbs are covered with climbing where a fall would certainly be disasterous. Using an R or X rating excessively distorts the demands of a particular route and has a definite influence on climbers shying away unnecessarily.
The problem is that easy routes are rated very inconsistently compared to harder routes. And yet falls on easy trad routes tend to be more dangerous than falls of the same distance on hard trad routes (since there's usually a lot more to hit on easy routes).
So you end up with hard routes rated R when a fall is no big deal, and easy routes not rated R because they are "easy." Then you have better climbers decrying R ratings on easy routes while hyping up their own runout hard climbs that are actually much safer. Definitely a double standard.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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So you end up with a route that's 5.10, with (nominally) a 5.8R pitch - which gets called 5.10R. Quite misleading - the issue in context is the "5.8", not the "R".
Right. The only guidebook I know that gets this right is Adirondack Rock, by Jim Lawyer and Jeremy Haas. They'll rate a route 5.9 G (5.7 X), for example.
Also, their protection ratings are based on their estimate of what might happen to you if you fall in "the wrong spot" and not on how long a fall it is, which is not especially meaningful on overhanging ground, for instance. Thus, for example, some relatively short falls with nasty impact zones can get an R rating, as they should.
All this makes sense, but I still think the state of trad climbing might be better off without it. On the other hand, guidebook writing is a labor of love, and I can also see how authors can easily be caught up in providing ever more more precise and detailed information.
One argument I don't buy: once the information is available, ignoring it is not at all the same as it not existing. (This is almost as clueless as saying you don't have to clip the bolts if you object to their presence.) The only way to keep the (I would have thought central) role of the unknown in trad climbing is to STFU. But here we are on...ahem...Super what?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:32am PT
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do Baboons count, or do we have to be human?
oh, and In and Out Burger , is Not.
they need to either change their lead time, or change their name.
i mean all they do is a buger, or a double burger, why not throw down more than one patty at a time, it's not like the next guy is gonna order a BLT, WTF, over? I just don't get it. 10 people scurrying around in those cute whit hats, but all i wanted was a burger and a shake?
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jmap
Social climber
NC
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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One of my early leads was the first pitch of Sundial Crack, a 5.8 at Looking Glass, NC. The area we were on is mainly known for eyebrows and small horizontals so I racked up with #2 and smaller cams, and some nuts and tri cams. I had just started really feeling comfortable leading and I was very focused on climbing in a powerful stance-to-stance style, meaning I would climb to a stance, place pro, evaluate the next series of moves to another stance and gun for it.
I really enjoyed climbing like this, but as a beginner, I believe I was too focued on up and didn't take the time to evaulate properly all the rock around me.
On this first pitch, I found a good piece at 10 feet, a good piece at 20 feet, and then nothing else. But I felt good about the climbing, the moves and stances were straightforward, and I was confident if not entirely comfortable.
I climbed another 70 or so feet to the last move before the anchor, which turned out to be the crux: it was a weird, kind of balancey mantle move over an awkward bulge. The move would have protected nicely with a #3 C4 but of course, I didn't have one. I made the move and clipped in, pretty relieved.
I later learned that a climber had died on that same pitch a couple of years back. It was pretty sobering.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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I pretty much rate my FA's R or X based on the quality of stretches of pro, the looseness of unavoidable rock that must be climbed, on specific fall potentials, or some combination of the above. One recent route which I've repeated twice has once pitch with a crux consisting of a structure of three interconnected loose flakes where you have to 'set' the two flakes on the right to lock or anchor the one on the left into place and then use it exclusively to pull the crux. The pro below it is ok, but it's an overhanging section above a slab and so it has an R rating for both the potential for pulling the three flakes down on yourself and for the possibility of a slab fall if you and you belayer aren't paying real good attention to the slack situation.
The FA I've currently been working on has a p3 that traverses a [rare] band of Smith-like tuft, but in the form of blocks about the size of cars several of which are loose. That 70' lower section of the pitch takes you to the base of a large roof which is of more normal, good stone, but is comprised of very technical moves and sports poor protection until you are established under the roof. It also trends far to the right over the void such that getting back to the belay can be quite challenging. It's rated R for that combination of reasons.
Other times climbing clean dictates the rating on my FAs. I sometimes free climb over sequences of #1-3 Loweballs / Crack'N Up placements - those pitches I will also rate R/X.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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I think all of the low pro/no pro routes I have done were slab routes.
yup, and the thing we'll never know was what combination of the following factors made for those runouts
Cheap
Poor
Lazy
Making an ego statement
wanting to make easy climbing more exciting
in a hurry
local ethics
and so on. Not to mention the skill of the leader, versus difficulty of the terrain, versus any idea of establishing a climb in consideration for climbers of that grade and so on
Guess we'll never know except if the FA parties tell their stories. Fortunately , we get those on the taco from time to time
peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:09am PT
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Gosh Joe
Sounds like those route are R rated if everything goes very well for a guy who blows a crux. Pretty good chances for far worse wouldn't you say?
Peace
karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:49am PT
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Potentially, on the flake one you'd have at least two sharp flakes headed for you and the two right ones needing to cross the line of the rope.
There are FA's / pitches I've done that I considered X rated during the FA, but if I can repeat them more than once I tend to drop it to R. That's the case on the current project, though the prospect of going back up and leading that p3 roof pitch again for the sixth time still makes my sack shrivel more than just a little.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Dec 14, 2009 - 04:06am PT
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Stories like gonzo chemists' are the kind that make up the most vivid memories. Sometimes you get a memorable experience when you weren't looking for one, and in retrospect, these experiences can be some of the most satisfying.
About easy routes not getting R ratings: If you climb at places like Lovers Leap, you'd have to be an idiot to think that falling any distance on lead is safe. Actually, for first year leaders, just about any trad route is R rated. I think it's worth emphasizing to beginning climbers that they really can get hurt climbing. Most people understand that, but maybe some of the people coming out of the gyms don't.
To help these people out, I propose a system like the British one, but a little more informative. Something like
5.x H E C
5.x (YDS) technical difficulty
H (integer 1-5) "objective" hazard: loose rock, things to fall on, etc.
E (1-3) experience needed: has to do with route finding, tricky pro
C (boolean) is having a clue a requirement?
For example:
The Groove
5.8 H=3 E=1 C=yes.
Explanation: H=3 because of the runout second pitch. E=1 because you need to know how to place smallish nuts. C=1 because you need to recognize that mantling and stemming are useful.
Labor of Love
5.10b H=1 E=0 C=yes.
Explanation: H=1 because there are those big dikes to trash yourself on, if you hit them. E=0 because you just need to clip bolts, like in the gym. C=1 because you need to realize that H=1 is important.
Eyeore's Enigma
5.? (never did it, don't remember what the guidebook said) H=0 E=2 C=no Explanation: H=0 because if you fall, you won't hit anything. E=2: looks tricky to pro, especially with a normal rack. C=0: you'd obviously have to be nuts to try a climb like that!
So, the more I think about it, the more I like it. A system like this would really give UKClimbing and www.8a.nu something to debate about, and that would keep all of us internet slackers entertained.
Happy climbs, maybe I'll see you at the gym.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Dec 14, 2009 - 10:18am PT
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GEEZ Karl- kinda harsh don't you think ? I have done plenty of f/a's and never thought of myself as cheap,lazy,making easy climbing exciting.....
Sure local ethics can mean a lot and in my mind should. You climb up drill where you can and keep climbing. It's pretty simple.
I don't do f/a's so other people will approve of them. I do them 'cause I like to. If others don't want climb them or don't like the gear, there are lot's of other routes to do.
Popularity does not mean a route is great , just as a rarely done route does not mean poor.
john
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Timmc
climber
BC
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Dec 14, 2009 - 10:55am PT
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I remember leading British Airways at JT in the late 80's and being quite gripped because of that huge yucca at the base. My brother was belaying me and he kept shaking the yucca and giggling -confident that it was within my abilities. I see now it has been upgraded and a little R is there too.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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Popularity does not mean a route is great , just as a rarely done route does not mean poor.
By the Poor factor, BITD it was often that the climber didn't have any money so every bolt was precious. For some guys, You just didn't leave money in the rock if you didn't have to. It takes a lot of cans at 5 cents a can to buy a bolt in 1980
Peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 14, 2009 - 11:50am PT
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Good point upthread - many routes/pitches that are less than vertical should in theory automatically be given an "R". If you fall off, there's a pretty good chance you'll hit something. As the toll of broken feet, ankles, and lower legs shows. Yet another reason why "the leader must not fall".
Then there are the too-common routes where there is a hard bit quite close to the ground or ledge, which isn't well protected (or at all), or where you'd hit something if you fell, perhaps because of generating a high fall factor.
This said, you can't give every pitch an "R" or "X" or "PG" or whatever other alphabet soup you think up, and a lot still comes down to good piloting.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
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Oh, the Apparition affair, still gives me chills thinking about it. I'd done the route several times
over the years, but on this occasion I had just guided El Condor (which used to be runout on
the 2nd pitch until a bolt was added). My client and I were coming back to the base of the route
to recover packs when I saw the guy on the ground below Apparition. I ran over to see what was
going on and found that the 5.8 leader had missed the bolt and fell 200'.
I gave CPR to no avail as he died of his injuries on the spot about an hour later and got a mouth full of blood in the process. About a year later I started having these crippy dreams, went and got tested for HIV, which
thankfully was negative. These days I carry a mouth shield !
Doug
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
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Up on east buttress of el cap last year, enjoying the 4th pitch (I think), cruising easy 5.6/5.7 terrain with poor pro. About 30 ft above my last nut, I hear a strange whistling sound getting closer and closer.... Whack! A 3 inch round stone hits me right on the shoulder. Right hand comes off and I barely catch myself. Would have hit the ledge from 60 plus feet up if I had fallen. Really close to taking the "unknown adventure" on that one. My heart races even as I write this!!!
Kalen
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
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On a brighter note: I can vividly remember doing an early ascent of "You Asked For It" in Tuolumne.
I was leading all pitches, Ed Barry who had previously done the route was belaying.
2nd pitch has 10c knobs 35 above a ledge prior to the first bolt, head ups to say the least.
the last pitch has the 10b move 75 feet above the pro, a #3 friend in a hole. Good pro it was, the problem was the cracked knob I had to pull on to get to the anchors. I must have tried to get around the cracked knob for 20 minutes of going up and down, until I finally whimpered, " what the
hell was I thinking?" Ed offers up the answer, "YOU ASKED FOR IT"
Doug
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Brendan
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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bhilden:
Lokk at all these shiny 3/8" ers!
Cool tale, I think I would rather just soloe that pitch than no-pro it.
Karl,
Nice storytelling, I swaer i was with you on that ledge for a minute.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Why don't we rate everything but sport routes R? After all, you could get hurt if you fall in the wrong place on most every trad route.
The R and X ratings are more of a "heads up" advisory than an attempt to analyze every potential danger. If you are leading a 5.10c trad route, you should be solid enough that if a 5.7/8 section is run out, you are OK. Should such a route be given an "R"? I think not, but apparently the trend with some is otherwise.
The natural extension to what some here are advocating is: If a trad climb doesn't have almost sport-like protection (even if it is natural gear), it should be given an R rating.
The risk of giving R ratings to trad routes that don't protect like sport routes is to make an R (or X) rating meaningless. It also denies the inherent danger of most trad climbing -- you could get hurt or killed if you blow it in the wrong spot.
Perhaps this is the essence of RGold's original point.
At Josh routes are assigned R and X ratings as follows:
R Rating: If a route is poorly protected at the difficult sections,but not without some protection, it will be given an R rating. A fall on a R-rated route, at the wrong place, could result in a very long or serious fall that results in injury or death.
X Rating: If a climb is essentially unprotected at the difficult sections, and a fall would have severe or grave consequences (e.g.: hitting the deck is possible), it will be given an X rating. A fall from a route with an X rating could result in severe injury or death if the fall occurred in the wrong place.
Climbers are also cautioned that "a long or even deadly fall can occur on almost any route."
Which is, of course true. In fact, most long, severe and deadly falls occur on routes not considered R or X.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:28pm PT
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Woah,
I'm getting sweaty palms . . .
A lot of friction routes listed here.
I'm especially fond of those pure friction sections, just palming and padding (or peddaling)
You really have to get in the "zone".
Two routes that got me into the friction-head-zone are:
The right side of Goodrich Pinnacle (5.9R), I did it in august when it was a bit warm. The crux for me was the pitch (#4 or #5) where you have to do about a 30' horizontal traverse on absolutely featureless rock. You just have to observe subtle differences in angle. It seemed barely doable with my sticky rubber. I wonder how it was for Robbins, who was probably wearing vibram soles on the FA.
Harlequin, on Saddle Rock in Josh. The crux (10d) is well protected on nice micro edges. Then comes the mental crux (10a) where the first bolt is some 50' out on very smooth rock. It is all about body position. You just look up at the bolt every once in a while to see if you are still on course.
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hooblie
climber
sounding out stuff , in the manner of crickets
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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Drilling suks, I'm here to climb, I can do these moves - I'm going for it.
i very much endorse the tone. how can that be given what i wrote upthread? i guess that's the dichotomy. it's an individual choice to view each fa as a personal skittery crossing ala an ascent of water ice, or at the other extreme, responsible park construction.
we didn't publish, rate, in some cases even name some fine routes down there that, lacking tri-cams, would be even wickeder.
what's my duty in that case... particularly since preserving adventure experience for posterity was a good part of the reason.
and yes local ethics plays into it, an impression had been made on my psyche a decade earlier.
my ear had downloaded "space babble" directly from the warbler's mouth. eeuw.
and now here he is, explainin' the plain and simple of it quite succinctly.
that's thanks to luck, and his just reward for never overloading his plate.
self knowledge, good form, worth emulating.
r/x seems somewhat of a perjorative term. for un...named, rated, reported stuff how about just a !
hovering out there? you know, the generic heads up
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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The idea that the reasoning is 'Making an ego statement' seems odd at the time of the ascent.
Declinging to add a bolt or provide permission after the fact may be the ego statement. In the moment of establishing I don't think I go "wow, people will respect me if I put up a run out"
usually it's like this
"wow, I'm scared shitless, where can I get gear"
or
"wow, this is awesome climbing, oh wow, I better get some gear in"
eh, maybe this thought process...
"wow, I don't want to be seen as a chicken so I better go a little further"
is it really ego? or is it also fear?
if fear, then it is similar to the above 'scared' reasonings no?
thots?
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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Salmanizer! This thread has me thinking about a route I did on the Lower Buttress at the Leap back when I was still in college. (83/84/?) It ended up being the first .11 I lead cleanly and it was also pretty scary for me. I tried looking it up on Mountain Project and saw that you were the guy that posted the routes in the area. The route I climbed is either Black Pyre or Black Magic. I started off as a thin crack 60’ or so to a reach move left to a juggy dike. After the dike it was a low angle easy hand crack. The crazy thing is I was intending to do Blue Wind and yet I ended up on this route. I am guessing I was on Black Pyre since it was the easier of the two. Can you help me figure out which one I climbed? And of course I am bummed it doesn’t get at least a PG!
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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hooblie,
The risk of the bold, boltless, and unreported lines is that in the not too distant future they will be bolted over by climbers unaware. As long as you don't mind, then all is ok, I suppose.
I really really admire the idea of preserving adventure and the unknown, but I've unfortunately seen the above scenario happen on more than one occasion (along with climbers knowingly bolting sport routes over old reported R/X routes). :(
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:57pm PT
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Are either Michael F or Patrick K going to die when I again sic one of them on the first pitch of Boa, again?
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hooblie
climber
sounding out stuff , in the manner of crickets
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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munge, how about this angle. one of my "quirks" is being overly concerned with the idea "preserve your options." simply by continuing business as usual, climbing from the bottom up, we're providing pushback to the top down idea. yet we would like to leave a route as perfectly crafted as those guys can where the clips make sense based on inspection (and more) but in the heat of the moment, and lack of knowledge of what lies above, onsite ground-up ascents can yield something short of ideal.
if you can run it out, leaving the most possible options open, then you've got the ideal situation. i believe you've earned some say so in that way to apply knowledge gained to fashion the best outcome. ego statement has a proper place in balance with pressure or punishment. it's not the same ratio with respect to flat out peril, imho
edit: nate, i almost included that little caveat. it's the chance you take and it's an ego self check to keep a sense of humor about such things. when it's all said and done you got your slice of the pie, it's to your credit if they did too, and after all, the shadow knows!
blatant retro bolters (reported routes,) not so funny.
ok, i've out pontificated myself. i know who i am
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
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There are no FAs in sport climbing.
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richross
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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Rich Romano on easier turf but run out on a 5.11+ trad FA,late 80's.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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I am sorry, but even with $ in my pocket I am not liberal with bolts. Installing bolts are a cop out because the climber is not mentally strong enough to execute the moves or construct a sound belay without them. Hey, I fall into that weakness sometimes as well. Climbers in the last 20 years have given up on limits in installations of bolts and now just chuck them in whenever they want (esp with cordless drills).
Personally, I like it when I can do a 160' pitch with a limit of 6 bolts. Skinner made the rounds 25 years ago with a Czech climbing slide show that told of a 3 bolt/80' limit in Eastern Europe. I modified that to the rope lengths I shoot for. That (hopefully) includes clean placements or a fixed pin (which could lead after removal to a clean placement). I'll normally carry a pretty full (clean) rack to cover what comes up. Sometimes these are runout, sometimes the crux is only 10' above the gear, other times right at the gear. Who knows.
As for R/X, I am just doing the route for myself or repeating a route to "emulate" the first ascent.
I don't have any good R/X stories. They are too common to select one out.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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Flanders,
I was one of the guys that helped lift the stokes into the chopper.
A very sad day indeed.
Juan
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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There are no FAs in sport climbing. Maybe not near you, but around these parts plenty of sport routes were ground-up FAs (for instance about half the sport routes in Owens). That ranges along a full range of tactics, from mostly aid up to and including free-solo FAs that the FA later added bolts to. But definitely FAs.
But I agree with you on rap-bolted routes.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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That ranges along a full range of tactics, from mostly aid up to and including free-solo FAs that the FA later added bolts to. But definitely FAs.
Free soloing and aiding are just that, that such routes are later retro'd doesn't mean they had a sport FA. If you are saying other routes were led ground up drilling from stances on lead then I'll agree with those - but how many of those that haven't been retro'd after the fact are considered sport routes today.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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"Anybody out there done 'Crying Time Again?'"
"The first four or so pitches to the big ledge went without incident.
The last pitch was my lead and all I could see was a single bolt 20'
off the ledge with a white sling in it."
I bailed off of it and hope to finish it this year.
After the big ledge was a dead vertical wall and the bolts appeared
to be a old bolt ladder. I got about 10' past that which was probably
about 30' off the ledge. I saw a runner about another 40-50' up. The
book shows the route going right after 5-6 bolts off the ledge and then
way left again? Do you think I bailed from your question or Big Boys
Don't Cry?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
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drilling from stances on lead Oh - so the Bachar-Yerian isn't a "valid" FA?
You lost this argument 30 years ago, no need to rehash it again. Plenty of ground-up routes with all original bolts are sport routes at Owens, Yosemite, Pinnacles, and elsewhere.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Dec 14, 2009 - 06:36pm PT
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Ya I did You Asked For It - great route. A warm up for BY (which I sucked out after the first pitch) I LOVE runouts ! What's the bad thing ? Your gonna die ?
Most "X" routes really are not that bad- you will live. Even things like Perilous Journey and Krystal Klear are really a strong RRRRRR
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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slabbo,
Have you been on big boys don't cry? I was thinking about you asked for it
at 1 time. I heard the crux was at the end, though I read a article that said
the route was sustained throughout. I once did a route about 100' of solid 5.10
and probably no move under 5.9 and rated 5.10b though I can't remember the
5.10(b) crux nor did I know where it was when I lead it. It was not R or X.
Btw, JB told me the crux X move on you asked for it is a 120' deck move.
The Dike Route is not 5.9 R and the pro is easy to see there, but it was very nice
5.6-5.7 X.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Dec 14, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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I remember leading a pitch on one of the R routes on Pywiack...I think it was Piece of Grass. I was ~20?ft out with the belay bolts in reach. I reached down unclipped a draw from my rack and proceeded to clip one of the belay bolts when gravity took over and I fell leaving 2 parallel black rubber streaks along my fall path. Adrenalin & heart rate peaked but hardly suffered a scratch. I lost a couple of mm of rubber off my Fires and a few layers of skin off a couple of fingers but that was about all. After regaining my composure, I retraced my moves and had the draw ready in my mouth for the quick clip when I arrived at my previous high point.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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"Is this R or X factor = to A5 but free climbing Maybe stupid question"
A5 at 1 time I believe I read was 70' fall factor with difficult aid
moves regardless of injury factor. A6 at this time they were talking
about being X factor as they were with H5 or H6 in free climbing.
R I read at 1 time was 40' fall factor regardless of injury so maybe the Dike
route is 5.9 R if he was not on piece of grass? I think anything above H3 was
probability of injury regardless of R rating distance. I don't see these H ratings
today nor did I through the 90's.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Dec 14, 2009 - 09:47pm PT
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Regardless of how the bolts were placed, there is someone(s) who first climbed it free. They did the FA.
Any statement like there are no FAs of Sport Routes is just gibberish.
Maybe on-sight, on the lead routes are better style, but that ain't the same thing as completely discounting the FA.
To my knowledge, the distance of a potential fall is not the determiner of R or X. It is whether the hard parts of the route pose a risk of a long fall. Any attempt to quantify R or X ratings is like trying to do the same for difficulty ratings. "I know it when I see it" type of thing.
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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2009 - 09:52pm PT
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I remember 1984, Bachar was telling me about his two new climbs on The Footstool of El Cap, he named one The Promise and The other The Believer, he then asked if I wanted to get the second ascent and he would take pictures, I went up with a friend, JB showed with Damitri Barton, he showed us both his routes, I decide to start with The Believer, I looked up at The first bolt some 25 feet off the ground, I remember JB telling me that they were his taper lock bolts and they were bomber! I asked how hard is this one and he said it’s The easier of The two, I said ok remember this is not dot to dot chalk climbing and were not talking any rating R or x how many bolts etc. I remember climbing 5.10+maybe 5.11? steep face for some 25 feet to the first bolt and just remember going and going for some 30 feet to The 2nd bolt, as I remember The route has some 4 bolts on it, clipping The last bolt seemed like The crux as I looked down The talus to my left at Bachar and Damitri, with The camera out ready to take picture of my DEATH, it was just about dark and I couldn’t fall or hang, due to my mentor watching, I down climbed to The last bolt in The dark and tied off on one taper bolt pulled The rope and lower it to pull a second rope to rap of The route on that one taper bolt. A few years later I found out that those taper bolts were shit! I never returned to finish this route, has any one climbed one of the two?
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jsj
climber
Boulder
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Dec 14, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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From the last piece of pro there's 20' of continuous 10+ edges to a final 5.11 move. This is that move. I tried to stay relaxed but the tension just kept building... and right after the 5.11 move is this plainly obvious jug in the rotten bad. I rushed the move... but somehow didn't fall.
The whole time I was acutely aware that some dudes had skidded to a halt on the road below, gotten out of their truck, and sat down in Crazy Creek chairs to watch. Later they sent me this photo.
From the rotten band I continued up the tan face to that shady "arete".
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Dec 14, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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healjye is mostly just playing around ya'll
sheesh
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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Plenty of ground-up routes with all original bolts are sport routes at Owens, Yosemite, Pinnacles, and elsewhere.
Last I checked sport climbing didn't included aiding of any kind, so lines drilled from hooks might be an FA, but wouldn't be a sport FA. The only thing I'd call a sport FA would be ground-up, drilling from stances and I doubt there are precious few of those that anyone today considers sport routes - B-Y certainly isn't one.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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Think of some Leads in your life, if you fall you DIE!
1985 on the North Face of North Early Winter Spire, Washington Pass
Mid-way up the first pitch, look down and note that a fall will land me on the ground, look left at the smallish footholds that are the only features to continue on, think, "They must only do this route in early Spring when there is snow for the landing," look down again, think, "LOTS of snow"
Yeah, I learned my lesson about guidebooks on that one!
I'm with Chiloe - the few times I've had no choice but to be brave were unexpected.
bmacd,
We know that the Reality Chek crux pitch could be R. It took out some well-respected ankles this season. But like DMT the guy made his own way back down to the road.
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ec
climber
ca
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:37am PT
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"Where protection is not assured by a usable crack long unprotected runouts sometimes result, and the leader of commitment must be prepared to accept the risks and alternatives which are only too well defined. Personal qualities - judgment, concentration, boldness - the ordeal by fire, take precedence, as they should, over mere hardware.
..."But every climb is not for every climber; the ultimate climbs are not democratic. The fortunate climbs protect themselves by being unprotectable and remain a challenge that can be solved only by boldness and commitment backed solidly by technique. Climbs that are forced clean by the application of boldness should be similarly respected, lest a climber be guilty of destroying a line for the future's capable climbers to satisfy his impatient ego in the present -- by waiting he might become one of the future capables. Waiting is also necessary; every climb has its time, which need not be today.
..."And having the humility to back off rather than continue in bad style - - a thing well begun is not lost. The experience cannot be taken away. By such a system there can never again be "last great problems" but only "next great problems." - Doug Robinson, "The Whole Natural Art of Protection"
Man, that 'Impatient Ego' gets the best of us sometimes...
However, I still rather use this as a guideline.
 ec
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50
climber
Stumptown
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:41am PT
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Anyone climb Ochre Fields? Tuolumne Tradster and I were attracted to this beautiful featureless expanse on the Apron in the '80s. Seemed pretty spicy to me and in the R/X zone.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:51am PT
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Slabbo, if you're ever in Calif. you gotta go to Hammer Dome (aka Lo-Cal Dome, across from Calaveras) and do the couple of 11b R routes there (topos say R/X but just solid R). Successive healthy runouts (30+) on bolts obviously drilled from the only stances. Great routes, quality slab climbing. And take your 6mm rap rope fluffed out to 7.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2009 - 04:30am PT
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"The idea that the reasoning is 'Making an ego statement' seems odd at the time of the ascent.
Declinging to add a bolt or provide permission after the fact may be the ego statement. In the moment of establishing I don't think I go "wow, people will respect me if I put up a run out"
some people do it, or did it. Climbing has undergone many changes. Remember 5.9 used to be the hardest grade and bolts for protection used to be more frowned on.
Climbing has always had an element of competitiveness for some people and there was a time when people competed on boldness as much as Technical difficulty and whatnot.
When I posted that list of possible factors, I didn't say all of them were involved in each x rated pitch, just that people put up x rated pitches motivated differently.
Peace
Karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 15, 2009 - 04:36am PT
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50,
> Anyone climb Ochre Fields? Tuolumne Tradster and I were attracted to this beautiful featureless expanse on the Apron in the '80s. Seemed pretty spicy to me and in the R/X zone.
I did it in the mid-80s with John Lockhart, and then went back last summer with Bob (cragnshag) - Bob led me up Deep Throat and Ochre Fields.
(See Bob's photo on Deep Throat earlier in this thread):
From the top of this long 5.9 section, we traversed left to join Ochre Fields.
We fixed ropes so that Roger could replace the bolts on it.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Dec 15, 2009 - 09:57am PT
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Hammer Dome- that has Set Your Controls For The Heart Of The Sun ? a 3? pitch 5.11 right ? I think I remember that from the late 80's or so. I "learned " the fine art of r & x in NH.
Ochre Fields- I was just re-reading Mountain magazine issue #69. Wow ffa of El Cap West Face , ffa Half Dome, f/a Grand Illusion, interview with Jardine about Friends AND f/a of Hall of Mirrors ! carl Austrom "do ochre Fields, at least you won't die"
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 15, 2009 - 10:43am PT
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I climb in TM and JT...... to many R X rated things to list.
I am sort of worried because a lot of "new" climbers are wondering why climbing can't be safe.
They mean "safe" meaning.... lots of bolts!
I draw them a map with directions on how to get to NJC.......
If they have something on the ball, and wish to know about climbing's lore, history and weird little customs. I take em climbing and show them just how it has come to be......
Lesson #1 ..... ditch all the new gadgets, cams,gri-ggi etc and go with nothing but hexes, stoppers ... go and climb something.
This puts a whole new perspective on climbing that they have no idea about.
At my local GYM... I go to train, not to "climb" cuse everybody knows there is no rock climbing in gyms, "The Guides" do try to instill some of the ethic into these infants.
I think this is a good thing and I would hope that anybody introducing somebody to our sport would take some time and explain a few things to them.
end of rant
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Dec 15, 2009 - 11:06am PT
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"I'm here to climb, I can do these moves - I'm going for it."
I thought this was one of the best posts, by far.
Dana
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MH2
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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a personal interpretation:
R means worry about getting hurt
X means tasting gunpowder
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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
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Suicide Rocks Weeping Wall 5.10c R, I remember one day slipping and sliding down one of the routes on this wall, some 30 feet and once The rope stoped me I remember looking at my finger tips on both hands watching thim blister and fill with puss before my eyes, I burned my tips as I slid down The face.
The key is to not fall!
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Joe
Social climber
Santa Cruz Mountains/Los Gatos
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Dec 15, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
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just discovered this thread. nice.
a bit thought provoking when I consider how many of the routes sited I've led up. I'm thinking might be time to learn how to play shuffleboard.
Didn't see Shake and Bake mentioned. ran up that again a week or so ago, and think it qualifies as R.
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gonzo chemist
climber
the Twilight Zone of someone else's intentions
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Dec 15, 2009 - 06:52pm PT
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Does Phosphorescent Flow in The Needles (CA) warrant the 'R' rating? seemed kind of R-ish to me when I led it. Definitely have fond memories of that day as well...
-Nick
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Dec 15, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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Dana: I too like that line "I'm here to climb..." but I would add that surviving to climb another day depends on developing the experience to recognize when (~2% of the time?) it is better to back off.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Dec 15, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
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To my knowledge, the distance of a potential fall is not the determiner of R or X. It is whether the hard parts of the route pose a risk of a long fall. Any attempt to quantify R or X ratings is like trying to do the same for difficulty ratings. "I know it when I see it" type of thing.
That's basically what I'm saying. I don't think The Dike Route is 5.9 R.
I read 40' for R somewhere. The 5.9 section is about 400' or little more
or less off the ground and a fall at/in the crux using the pro prior you
would be clear of obstacles, and it looked to be less than a 40' fall and,
a fairly safe fall.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 15, 2009 - 07:22pm PT
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Does Phosphorescent Flow in The Needles (CA) warrant the 'R' rating? seemed kind of R-ish to me when I led it. Definitely have fond memories of that day as well...
That route has a history. The story goes something like this. The FA was done with three bolts. Mari and Mike put them in the perfect places, each bolt protected a harder move and the runout climbing in between was more moderate. I did it a number of times like that, usually as a warm up for more serious stuff.
Then a person came along who thought it was dangerous and irresposible, who chopped the original bolts and re set the climb with six bolts none where the first ones were. This caused some consternation among the regulars.
Eventually three regulars (climbers I know) went down and chopped three of the new bolts, restoring the count to the original three. The problem is that these three remaining bolts are not where the originals were, creating run out cruxes.
If this has been corrected recently I do not know about it. I was thinking about fixing this little mess myself, but how many holes and scars from repeated chopping can the route bear? Investigation is required.
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ec
climber
ca
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:06pm PT
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Then a person came along who thought it was dangerous and irresposible...
Is he here? Not the guy in the black hat - green shirt for sure...(me)
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
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Fogarty,
I only know White Line Fever (Graham told me the name) but I only
remember 1 possible 5.10(c) move on that wall? From memory
of years past it's protected ok and not R however some of those other
lower rated routes there maybe deserving?
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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2009 - 09:31pm PT
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I know it's the guy with the Beer bottle!
There are routes that I did with lots of friends, He put them in his guide books and put his name on The FFA party and never was there on some or he couldn't get off the ground on the rest.
Then when The Guide book came out I noticed that on most of the routes that I did he would RAP them and add bolts and never even climb them!
I asked him why some 20 years later and his response was, it was dangerous and you were to bold, people could get hurt or die, and I don't want routes like that in my books. My reply was I never asked you to put my routes in your books!
The climbing community is better off today because this guy Quite climbing to play tournament bridge.
AMEN.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Dec 15, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Dec 15, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
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Fogarty,
good for you I would have told him the same if he was gay.
I just sand bagged routes there from the red book in the 80's
which was lost years ago. I just remembered the 5.10(c) to
the left of 10K Gold and further left of Serpentine both
which I remember having further run out 5.9 than the Dike
Route or that 5.10(c). Is that suicide picture it(what he said)
and if so were bolts removed?
I still don't know what route the first picture is though it looks
somewhat familiar?
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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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The Photo is of Duck Soup.
As far as Adding bolts to established routs. some bolts were removed like stated above others are just to much work and now the guide books show the ajusted Vernon bolt topo! so now to remove them would maybe wrong for Joe climber with his guide book?
Revised post.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 15, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
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I didn't want to get into calling out names which is why I didn't, but I think the historical facts are relevant.
The problem is that removing the 3/8 button heads set in a tight hole with a heavy hammer makes a real mess.
I don't know about Greg adding "hundreds" of bolts to established routes. I do know of a few.
Over and out,
Kris
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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2009 - 01:15am PT
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Kris, your post fiered me up about somthing from the past that I have not thought about for a long time, I have revised my two post above.
Peace
Mike
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:51am PT
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Hey Mike,
No worries. Actions have consequences, and if a certain individual tarnished his reputation by his actions so be it. I believe it was the same Greg who added the chicken bolt on Esto Power up at Courtright, a super mega classic stance drilled route. Again, the 3/8 buttonhead looks like it will leave a mess if chopped, other wise I would have done it a while ago..
It a sorry state of affairs when someone comes in and says all the climbs should be equally accessible. For me one of the best things about climbing is to be able to imagine what it is like to do those great climbs which are completely out of my reach.
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adam d
climber
closer to waves than rock
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:52am PT
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not hard, but it's a fun one...sans bolts. Not a bad day at the office though.
Head for that OW up left dude.
Empress, Chapel Pond Slab, Adirondacks.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Dec 16, 2009 - 10:07am PT
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You sure they are 3/8" buttons ? Not 5/16" We had big problems with the 3/8 buttons WAY back in the '80's. You really had to flare the top of the hole and then the head would get all screwed up. Pulling them is tough as well because the button tends to come off. Chris Mac ????? BITD i always thought 5/16" were a decent compromise.
john
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ec
climber
ca
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Dec 16, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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Yes. 3/8"bh, the favorite choice of bolt of the person who wanted to be the Savior of Climbing...as he would have wanted it...so his work would be difficult to reverse.
ec
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 16, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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if that 3/8 bh your looking at, is all bashed up on the head, it's most likly bad...........It's beat to sh#t and bottoming in the hole.
I was lowering Kris one day from a climb at the Church Dome. The climb is gently overhanging and as he was pulling himself back in to get his draw, the freaking head comes off the bolt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
True story....it was beat to shit!
look out.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 16, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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The one on Esto Power is a 3/8. Damn I hate those things.
I did this route at Church Dome once called The Heretic which was protected with those things. Fortunately it was fairly moderate, because as I rapped down cleaning I swung in and grabbed a draw and the head popped right off the bolt! It broke right at the end of the split section, about 1/2" in from the head.
If you don't make a nicely tapered hole, you have to hammer the crap out of the thing to place it, and the metal fatigues.
Yeah I've used a lot of 5/16 buttonheads, I like 'em. Still have to taper the mouth of the hole or the rock can shatter away as you drive in the bolt.
edit: Well there you have it. Corroboration from Guy while I was typing away..
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MH2
climber
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Dec 16, 2009 - 02:55pm PT
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BASE104:
At least the clients got to watch a real climber whimper and cry. That should cost extra.
You established a new standard, beyond R, beyond X. The embarrassment factor?
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:31pm PT
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"The Photo is of Duck Soup."
Fogarty,
I know I have done this climb. Is that the 5.10(c) left of 10K gold
and even further left of Serpentine? White Line Fever I do not remember
as a route name on Weeping Wall though Duck Soup I remember. I really
have not used or looked in that red book since the early 90's and the 5.10(c)
was not R, however these other 2 were probably both deserving.
Did they have a name for the direct version (straight up) of 10K gold?
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gonzo chemist
climber
the Twilight Zone of someone else's intentions
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Dec 16, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
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I have a good friend who fell from about 3' above a 3/8'' compression bolt last year, on a route somewhere in the South Platte. The f*#kin bolt sheered off in the hole, and what should have been no big deal, turned into a 40' crash-landing nightmare. He came away with no broken bones, but he was all beat up for months. Couldn't really climb for about a year afterward actually. Anyway, watch out for those hammer-ins...ya just never know if they're any good.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Dec 16, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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I know people are hopped up on glue-ins and sh#t but..a good 3/8" rawl (powers) x 2 1/4" is a pretty good bolt. Strong, cheap and won't shear unless you really over torque it.
When i was building my house, The dude at the building supply house wanted to sell me some sh#t. I said "these work pretty good for climbing so..." So 6x6 posts anchored with above mentioned bolts- seems ok to me.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 16, 2009 - 07:27pm PT
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In good rock, an expansion bolt like the 5 piece Rawl is ideal. For one thing unless the bolt is very corroded it is relatively easy to replace in the same hole.
Compression bolts like the 3/8 buttonheads suck.
For some reason the 5/16 buttons work very well but require skill and experience to place well.
Speaking of Esto Power (.10d-r) ...
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Dec 16, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
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"^^^ A proper safety meeting is necessary."
A statutory basis for a public agency filing should pay.
Do you want me to check?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Dec 16, 2009 - 10:19pm PT
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Midarock-
I really gotta say I dig you actually posting some climbing related replies.
Keep up the good work.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Dec 16, 2009 - 10:47pm PT
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mucci,
your welcome.
If serious contact me via email. We will discuss a state not
US agency along with the number of member employees to prevent
a conflict of interest charge which carries a forever not life
penalty.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Dec 16, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
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^^^
That's the 5.12x bridge, there is a modest 5.9 variation to the right 2oo yards.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Dec 17, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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mucci,
You got it. 12 could be the safety net but i'm not certain a public agency
would be feasible even with provision? 9 is short.
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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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Kris, Nice photo,
Esto power, I need to get on that one. (No Beta Needed)
Thnks.
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Mittens
climber
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on my redpoint of the grack, I was so pumped that I had to run it out 10 feet over a red camalot in a crack that wasn't 100% parallel sided!
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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This thread makes my hands sweat. It seems like most of the good routes in Tuolumne have a lot of runout. So many good ones mentioned.
I have been scared on plenty of easy ones.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Anyone climb Ochre Fields?
Yes. That's a good one. ;) Lots of others on GPA we did in the 80's that were way runout and 1/4" bolts.
Cheap Way to Die at Joshua Tree comes to mind. All I had was a cam under the roof in some coarse loose grit. If I hadn't of turned that 10b roof I was sure I would have decked (from about 100').
Direct start to Mechanics Route at Tahquitz was pretty dicey... got like one tiny wired nut in for that approx 75'... if I remember right. Still haven't emailed Gaines about maybe getting it in the guidebook... but it's only been 20 years, not like I'm slow, or anything. lol
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Add an X to any climb!
Just leave that rope and gear behind!
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gonzo chemist
climber
Crane Jackson's Fountain St. Theater
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Pitch 6, The Warrior. Not too hard, technically; but not much protection on the pitch either.
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Double D
climber
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Black Primo, Space Babble and Hoosers Highway get my vote.
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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2011 - 02:30am PT
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Bea1'st, Tree fall, sounds like a story of an old friend of ours, thanks for the share. F
Has Burning Down The House had a second ascent?
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hooblie
climber
from where the anecdotes roam
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Sep 27, 2011 - 06:16am PT
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i don't know if sandstone slabs ever clean up with wear, but i thought the fine grit on the final top out pitches of levitation 29 added real spice. i wasn't begging for pro as much as for that secure feeling under foot, or maybe just a sign that i wasn't way off route, which might have been the case. glad we chose to go over the top though.
if we had rapped, my clearest memory of the route would have been that clipping bolts kind of distracted from a pretty nice sequence through the crux. i know it was a freed aid line but it brings up a benefit of sparse pro. a few sear marks get left on the meat brain
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Grey Ghost in 2010. Don't want to fall on first pitch. Royal Robbins was a super-bad a@#! Beautiful climb....
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Todd Tremble climbing the first pitch of Tightrope, 5.11b Glacier Point Apron. This isnt even the runout part. Every move is 10c or harder on the first 50 feet of the second pitch, which is a traverse on thin flakes with no rests or even any secure stances. Flakes turn to glassy 5.9 friction for another 20 feet or so before you clip the first bolt. There was a 2 foot wide water streak where the friction starts when we did it, which made it extra sporty. By the time I made the clip Todd was holding the halfway mark of our 165' rope at the belay.
Ive heard somebody died when they didnt make the first bolt on the second pitch
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MH2
climber
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Grey Ghost in 2010. Don't want to fall on first pitch. Royal Robbins was a super-bad a@#! Beautiful climb....
This climb?
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lucander
Trad climber
New England
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Dec 10, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
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I've led this once a year for three years. Took a fall on an onsight attempt when a pebble foothold broke, fortunately I was 2-3 feet above gear at that point. One of many severely under-appreciated and neglected routes in the Gunks.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Feb 25, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
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2 Wycked! bumpity for the crazy runout on tough terrainz
jhj what route is that with the phat runout thru .11 to rotten jug and then slab and shady arete? phine foto! and pheat!
gonzo, yer story was gripping...
i've had some phine times in the no fallz terrain, however none to be shared at this time.
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